Posted                      

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
However, I doubt they would be as willing to fly the battle flag next to the flag of oppression they were actually flying.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Or maybe there is a third possibility, which is that the way MN feels when he sees the flag of Saudi Arabia or North Korea is fundamentally different from the way that some black people feel when they see a confederate flag.

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What I'm looking for is consistency from our national leaders who will express their distaste for the confederate battle flag yet bow to the king of Saudi Arabia or even hold his hand.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's what the Saudi flag was created for.

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OK, you could argue that. Does this mean you are in sympathy with Shiites and moderate Sunnis?

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I don't mind if they fly at memorials to the slaughtered.

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So, not at Fredericksburg, Bull Run, Gettysburg, Chickamauga, any of these places or these places? Looking at this list, the casualties seem relatively equal in most. So where were the slaughters?

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
You gave a list of slaughters then asked where the slaughters were.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I don't think such flags should fly at capitols. Only the flags of the current governments should fly there. I don't mind if they fly at memorials to the slaughtered.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
OK, slaughter does mean the killing of large numbers of people. But it is often used to indicate a one-sided affair. But the Confederate battle flag has a lot more connotation than just that. So a memorial to the fallen should, IMO, not include it. Not saying make it illegal on private grounds, but ban it from any public.

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Oh, how are you on Nazi flags at WWII battlefields?

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Don't public buildings in the US fly an assortment of other flags as well as the national one? - State and civic flags, flags associated with twinning agreements, flags associated with special days in the year, distinguished visitors and causes that the state or local authority wants to support etc?

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And don't hotels fly all sorts of flags?

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After all, Wells Cathedral flies what looks like the Scottish flag but that's because it is dedicated to St Andrew.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Don't public buildings in the US fly an assortment of other flags as well as the national one? - State and civic flags, flags associated with twinning agreements, flags associated with special days in the year, distinguished visitors and causes that the state or local authority wants to support etc?

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I believe that each state decides that.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Federal buildings will only fly the national flag. I've rarely seen any flags flying from a state building except the national flag and the state flag. The only exceptions I can think of are an occasional historical flag or a school flag at a public school. A county or municipal building may also fly the county or city/town flag, if there is one.

Mileage somewhere like NYC or LA may differ.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Well, the Fairmont in NYC was flying a Saudi flag. Maybe a bunch of Saudi swells were visiting. I don't know if it is always flown but it was there when I walked by. I checked earlier today on the hotel's website and it sure looks like you can still buy a drink there.

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Originally posted by John Holding:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Well, the Fairmont in NYC was flying a Saudi flag. Maybe a bunch of Saudi swells were visiting. I don't know if it is always flown but it was there when I walked by. I checked earlier today on the hotel's website and it sure looks like you can still buy a drink there.

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I'd guess the New YOrk consulate of Saudi Arabia has its offices in the hotel. Hence the flag.

John

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Displaying that flag is explicitly saying that the USA should be divided in half, and one half should have slavery. That was the whole fucking point of the Civil War - no more UNITED States, and some men, women and children created unequal.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Yes, cognitive dissonance may be going on, but they would say they love their country but protest the government.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
... It is certainly fair to infer that, but that is not necessarily what people who display it are trying to communicate. ... Yes, cognitive dissonance may be going on, but they would say they love their country but protest the government.

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Once more with feeling: the rebel rag is not a gracious-heritage-grits-'n'-gravy-nostalgic-Southern-charm-coconut-cake flag.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
... It is certainly fair to infer that, but that is not necessarily what people who display it are trying to communicate. ... Yes, cognitive dissonance may be going on, but they would say they love their country but protest the government.

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The current popularity of that flag dates from the civil rights era. That was when the federal government was saying black people have the right to vote and go to school just like anyone else. The response in the South was to raise that flag again. It's pretty clear what they were "protesting" about. It's not cognitive dissonance, it's a dog whistle, and they know exactly what it means. They just know not to say it in polite company.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So what you are saying, Mere Nick, is that they might not be racist, but simply ignorant and stupid?

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
How many conclusions can there be?

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They don't care what it means or they don't know. If they don't know, they are ignorant at the very least.

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I would argue stupid as well, given the level of controversy.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
All that can be known by seeing someone flying a flag is that they are flying a flag.

eta: If you want to know why they are flying a flag you'd probably need to ask.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Sure, someone may have intended them to mean something when they put them there, but who can really know without hunting them down and asking them?

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
And what's with all those red octagons on street corners? Sure, someone may have intended them to mean something when they put them there, but who can really know without hunting them down and asking them?

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Exactly. What I'm seeing here on the SOF is people saying what a symbol means to them and figuring that MUST be what it means to everyone else. If simply maintaining a smug condescension is insufficient to someone and they also want understanding, then I would recommend asking the one using the symbol what they mean.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm hoping you don't actually operate a motor vehicle. Or that your claimed bafflement about the allegedly arbitrary meaning of stop signs is a pretense.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm hoping you don't actually operate a motor vehicle. Or that your claimed bafflement about the allegedly arbitrary meaning of stop signs is a pretense.

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That's not a good analogy. When one is seeking a drivers license one will be tested on what a red octagonal sign with the big word "STOP" on it means in the minds of the ones who hang the sign at an intersection.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If I came to your house and you had it hanging on your den wall then, no, I wouldn't know what it means without you telling me.

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Yes, something like this would be an impenetrable conundrum. It's not at an intersection or anywhere one could use a motor vehicle. I wonder what in the world is being communicated here?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posted                      

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Originally posted by Russ:
Are you really desperate enough to argue what I'm hearing here ? That the existence of a symbol whose meaning everyone understands disproves the possibility of a symbol that means different things to different people ?

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Russ:
Are you really desperate enough to argue what I'm hearing here? That the existence of a symbol whose meaning everyone understands disproves the possibility of a symbol that means different things to different people?

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's a valid analogy if you're arguing that there's no way to know the meaning of symbols without interrogating their users.
How can you be certain that the person who installed the stop sign on the corner of 4th and Elm really wants motor vehicles to stop at that intersection?

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
While there may be some ambiguity about certain symbols, there are definite limits to that ambiguity...
.. this flag lacks any non-racist interpretation.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Mere Nick denies that it's possible for "a symbol whose meaning everyone understands" to exist.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Russ:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
While there may be some ambiguity about certain symbols, there are definite limits to that ambiguity...
.. this flag lacks any non-racist interpretation.

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Seems to me that it is the white hood in that picture that is the unambiguous symbol of racism.

You are deliberately showing this picture in order to associate the two symbols. Which action gives the lie to your assertion. If what you are saying were true, it wouldn't make any difference whether the man wears a white sheet or not.

Best wishes,

Russ

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Russ:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
While there may be some ambiguity about certain symbols, there are definite limits to that ambiguity...
.. this flag lacks any non-racist interpretation.

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Seems to me that it is the white hood in that picture that is the unambiguous symbol of racism.

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Hardly unambiguous! Maybe he's just a bedsheet fetishist. Or a burn victim who needs to wear loose-fitting clothes and is self-conscious about his facial scarring. There's no real way to know without asking him, right?

Besides, even if the hooded gentleman is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, they'll tell you themselves that they're not racist. It's about heritage, not hate. As Mere Nick points out, just because you draw conclusions about the meaning of a pointy hood and robe doesn't mean the Klansman inside agrees with them. And that means it can mean anything at all!

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ:
You are deliberately showing this picture in order to associate the two symbols. Which action gives the lie to your assertion. If what you are saying were true, it wouldn't make any difference whether the man wears a white sheet or not.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
"my preferred symbol of white supremacy is unobjectionable and meaningless, so how dare you put it next to that guy's symbol of white supremacy".

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Which is to say they are traitors. Flying the flag of those who fought against the country.

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:
The current popularity of that flag dates from the civil rights era. That was when the federal government was saying black people have the right to vote and go to school just like anyone else. The response in the South was to raise that flag again. It's pretty clear what they were "protesting" about. It's not cognitive dissonance, it's a dog whistle, and they know exactly what it means. They just know not to say it in polite company.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So what you are saying, Mere Nick, is that they might not be racist, but simply ignorant and stupid?

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I fly the flags of other countries, including flags of countries the U.S. has been at war with—or declared independence from—and historical flags at my house all the time.

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And before anyone asks, I would never fly a Confederate flag, my UDC forebears notwithstanding. I am well aware of what the flag rightfully means to most people, including me, and I would never want to be associated with that or offend anyone by flying it.

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But I know people for whom it is indeed cognitive dissonance—including the handful of African Americans I have known of who sometimes fly a Confederate flag. Weird but true.

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe he's just a bedsheet fetishist. Or a burn victim who needs to wear loose-fitting clothes and is self-conscious about his facial scarring. There's no real way to know without asking him, right?

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Besides, even if the hooded gentleman is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, they'll tell you themselves that it's about heritage, not hate.

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the juxtaposition should be unobjectionable.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Russ:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe he's just a bedsheet fetishist. Or a burn victim who needs to wear loose-fitting clothes and is self-conscious about his facial scarring. There's no real way to know without asking him, right?

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Those are possibilities unrelated to the conventional meaning of the symbol. Other possibilities are that he is deliberately intending that meaning ironically or satirically. Or with some notion of "reclaiming" the symbol to re-associate it with some meaning less obnoxious.

Seems to me technically quite correct to say that we don't know without asking him. But reasonable to take as an initial working hypothesis the most obvious interpretation, that he intends to assert the conventional white-supremacy meaning of the symbol. Pending further information...

<snip>

My objection is only to the arrogance of those who think that their perceived meaning of the symbol is the "correct" meaning and that those "ignorant" of that "fact" need to be "educated" to think as they do. Symbols can and do mean different things to different people.

If you want to suggest that it might be prudent for public bodies to refrain from displaying symbols which have wildly different meanings to different people without giving a clear explanation of what the body concerned means by that symbol, then that sounds a reasonable suggestion. If it can be done without encouraging the arrogance of the self-appointed symbol-interpreters...

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Originally posted by Russ:

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Besides, even if the hooded gentleman is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, they'll tell you themselves that it's about heritage, not hate.

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If he'd worn a Confederate grey uniform to wave the flag, I'd take him instead for some sort of historical re-enactor. A history buff, or perhaps just an actor paid by the local tourist board to encourage visitors to come to a historic location by playing up the history.

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