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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should Oskar Gröning be in prison?
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I must admit that I find myself troubled by the news that Oskar Gröning is imprisoned for working at Auschwitz.
He admits that he was there for a while. He admits his "moral guilt". But no-one has ever suggested that he took actively took part in atrocities, other than being a "book-keeper". Once he knew what was happening there, he tried to get himself moved.
I am just not sure what is being accomplished by putting this 94 year old man in prison for 4 years. He has had a lifetime to live with the things he saw and which sickened him. Isn't that punishment enough?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This is perhaps a bit tangential to your main question, but can anybody find anything that says he has actually gone to prison?
In my experience a "jailed" headline does not necessarily mean that literally happened, and I note the article is not forthcoming on that point. Even receiving a firm prison sentence may not actually mean going straight to jail. And in some countries, if he was free prior to the trial and appealed, he would not have to go to jail pending the appeal case.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I don't know. Horrible things happen because normal people go along with the monsters. Is it enough to be horrified and leave? Not sure where the line goes.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think there should be a difference when it comes to criminal law. Let God sort out the guilt of those who don't do enough.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Every case is different. I have encountered a few old people in prison - although not that old. They are invariably surrounded by a general air of embarrassment.
In this case, I get the impression that had the plaintiffs agreed to it, a restorative justice approach would have done everyone in question a lot more good.
The plaintiffs are unlikely to be satisfied because the sentence is so short compared to the scale of the atrocity the defendant was representing, however tangentially (or not). Even assuming it's enacted, there would probably be normal sentencing reductions plus, possibly, suspension of the sentence for health reasons.
Again, assuming the sentence is enforced, the person the most likely to come out well, assuming he survives it, is the defendant. He will be able to say, accurately, that he has paid his debt to society as determined by justice; he may well use the time to further reflect on his part in the affair and find his own peace about it.
Lastly, I was struck by this (from the article in the OP): quote:
Gröning was pushed by a prosecutor to answer whether he knew what the SS stood for when he volunteered to join it. He replied: “It is hard to describe it to someone of your generation who was not there. It is simply inexplicable.”
That resonates with me. The trial is taking place in a context which is nothing like that of the time, and I am disquieted by that. For similar reasons, I think there are good arguments for a statute of limitations on sex crimes reported only long after the fact and based solely on anecdotal evidence.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Lastly, I was struck by this (from the article in the OP): quote:
Gröning was pushed by a prosecutor to answer whether he knew what the SS stood for when he volunteered to join it. He replied: “It is hard to describe it to someone of your generation who was not there. It is simply inexplicable.”
That resonates with me. The trial is taking place in a context which is nothing like that of the time, and I am disquieted by that.
So,at the time, you think people would have been more understanding? Really? Reading the reaction of soldiers encountering the various camps, I cannot think it would be.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
For similar reasons, I think there are good arguments for a statute of limitations on sex crimes reported only long after the fact and based solely on anecdotal evidence.
I can't agree. Time can be a factor in conviction, but it shouldn't be in the limiting of charges. This completely misses the dynamics or rape and molestation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
posted by lilBuddha
So,at the time, you think people would have been more understanding?
If a fellow German had judged him harshly at the time, he or she would have done so from a position of having faced some of the same decisions. None of us has any idea how we would have acted if we lived in Nazi Germany. I don't think Oskar Groening can even understand his former self, let alone explain it to those who were not there.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So,at the time, you think people would have been more understanding? Really? Reading the reaction of soldiers encountering the various camps, I cannot think it would be.
Possibly this isn't quite what Eutychus meant, but back in the 1950s plenty of 'mid level' Nazi's escaped prosecution. A large part of that was due to the feelings amongst the german public that people who were essentially 'following orders' were being unfairly victimised.
Everyone knows about the Stasi, but relatively fewer people know about the history of the BND and how they appear to have recruited a larger than average number of fascist sympathisers over the years.
There's a book by the wife of one of the confessing Christians, which expresses bitterness at how she and others in her circle were treated by society after the war - they were essentially seen as a fifth column by large parts of German officialdom (which hadn't really been de-nazified at the lower levels), and found it hard to claim benefits, get jobs etc.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:
posted by lilBuddha
So,at the time, you think people would have been more understanding?
If a fellow German had judged him harshly at the time, he or she would have done so from a position of having faced some of the same decisions. None of us has any idea how we would have acted if we lived in Nazi Germany. I don't think Oskar Groening can even understand his former self, let alone explain it to those who were not there.
This is precisely why such prosecutions should be harsh.
Crimes committed by such as Anders Breivik and James Holmes are outliers. The vast majority of the population would never do such a thing.
But atrocities like the Holocaust are perpetrated by normal people. Yes, the leaders are often monsters, but everyone else is just people.
This cannot be an excuse.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So,at the time, you think people would have been more understanding? Really? Reading the reaction of soldiers encountering the various camps, I cannot think it would be.
I didn't say whether I thought the sentence would be more or les harsh. What concerns me is the length of time that distances the court, and the players, from the circumstances. I think this does not help justice to be applied appropriately or meaningfully. The people involved come to symbolise much greater evils, and it's hard to stick with the facts of the case, let alone understand them as a court at the time would have done.
Like I say, I think a restorative justice approach would have been a lot better in the case in hand.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I can't agree. Time can be a factor in conviction, but it shouldn't be in the limiting of charges. This completely misses the dynamics or rape and molestation.
I accept that such charges may take some time to be brought, and that imposing a statute of limitations means that some cases that deserve to be tried end up not being, but I still think there should be one. In France it's currently 20 years. (This is probably a tangent to the main topic here though).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Like I say, I think a restorative justice approach would have been a lot better in the case in hand.
Whilst I am a fan of restorative justice, I am failing to see how it could be applied here.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
On the back of an envelope, it would have involved Gröning being involved in face-to-face meetings with camp survivors and them determining together how he could be restored to a meaningful place in the community. I think that would have provided a better chance for closure for the survivors, and less potential for frustration.
It might also have avoided the rather ignominious outcome of keeping behind bars an old man who does not appear to represent a danger to society and who appears, at least to some degree, to recognise his part in the proceedings and acknowledge it was wrong.
Don't get me wrong; I knew well an inmate who I think will be well into his 80s by the time he gets out, and I'm very happy for him to be kept in. I was also acquainted with a drug dealer of a similar age doing time, not too sorry about that either. But as I said, I've crossed paths with others for whom keeping them in prison is more shameful than just in my view.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
On the back of an envelope, it would have involved Gröning being involved in face-to-face meetings with camp survivors and them determining together how he could be restored to a meaningful place in the community. I think that would have provided a better chance for closure for the survivors, and less potential for frustration.
IF he is truly remorseful, he can meet with them on his way to prison. As I said in response to moonlitdoor, it is precisely because he is a normal person that sympathy is not in order.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IF he is truly remorseful, he can meet with them on his way to prison. As I said in response to moonlitdoor, it is precisely because he is a normal person that sympathy is not in order.
Well, from that it sounds as if you are quite a fan of retributive, rather than restorative justice...
I think there's a place for both, but that one of the principles to be constantly borne in mind in retributive justice is maintaining basic human dignity. There is no one-size-fits-all rule, but if deprivation of liberty results in inmates no longer being treated with dignity as fellow human beings, well, I think it's a step on the road back towards the likes of Auschwitz.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Eutychus, I know you're a fan of restorative justice, but this case shows none of the usual indicia for following that path in places where it's available. Then you talk of "plaintiffs" - but this was a prosecution, brought by the State, not a civil action brought by individuals. Finally, what survivors of the relevant camp are available to discuss how he could be "restored to a meaningful place in the community" - a phrase that you might like to explain.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I would not describe myself as an expert on restorative justice, but what I do know is that it covers a very broad palette of approaches. What I mean by it in this case is an opportunity for victims to be at the centre of the process; for them to have an opportunity to tell their story to the offender and for the offender to respond appropriately.
I admit to not having followed this case closely, but certainly Auschwitz survivors have been brought to testify, and as I recall at least one of them did engage in a kind of informal restorative justice approach with Gröning during a court recess.
I'm not sure how things work in Germany, but certainly in France many criminal cases are not prosecuted by the state unless there is a "civil party" to the proceedings (or to put it another way, pressure is brought to bear on victims to constitute themselves as civil parties).
As to "restored to a meaningful place in the community" in this instance, well, off the top of my head, having an opportunity to apologise to survivors for his part in the atrocities, perhaps undertake to testify in public settings such as schools as to how he became caught up in them and how others might be prevented from doing so, and so on. If he is genuinely contrite then I think this would be much more meaningful, constructive, and even cost-effective than being a decrepit minor celebrity in a jail somewhere, especially as I do not see him being a danger to the public.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Having done a little reading up I see that Angela Orosz-Richt is a Jew born in Auschwitz and described as a co-plaintiff in the court case (source).
The above article also clarifies, as I suggested, that Gröning has not actually gone to jail, that whether he does is at the discretion of the authorities, and that nothing will change in this respect until the period during which he can appeal has expired.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IF he is truly remorseful, he can meet with them on his way to prison. As I said in response to moonlitdoor, it is precisely because he is a normal person that sympathy is not in order.
Well, from that it sounds as if you are quite a fan of retributive, rather than restorative justice...
Not at all. Not retribution. You miss what I have been saying or I am not communicating it well.
Perhaps I should have said sympathy is in order, but not sympathetic treatment.
His crime is, in a way, more serious than Mengele's. Not worse but more serious. Evil happens regardless, great evil happens because we permit it. Because everyday people permit it.
This is the message which should be writ large upon his trial, his epitaph and his tombstone.
truly, at 94 and in poor health, it matters little what happens to him. It isn't about punishing him. It is about that message.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Perhaps I should have said sympathy is in order, but not sympathetic treatment.
I think people should be treated with humanity as far as is possible in view of their dangerousness, and that any incarceration should be as meaningful as possible for all concerned. Those responsible for sentencing arrangements routinely take into account age, health, and so on (or should do), and that is exactly how things should be.
quote:
His crime is, in a way, more serious than Mengele's.
This is a ridiculous assertion. I agree only too wholeheartedly that great evil happens because others allow it, but that does not alleviate the actual perpetrator's responsibility (unless it can clearly be demonstrated that they were manipulated and to all intents and purposes controlled by someone else, as is the case in some murders, for instance).
quote:
This is the message which should be writ large upon his trial, his epitaph and his tombstone.
I very much doubt that doing so would deter ordinary people from being similar "cogs in the wheel". The whole tragedy of such affairs is that most people act unawares and don't think they are like media monsters.
I've read a bit more now.
From the above it emerges that Gröning came to the authorities' attention solely because he spoke out publicly against Holocaust denial. He didn't need to do that, and I'd suggest it's a major mitigating factor.
Furthermore, I see from the same source that one Auschwitz survivor at least seems to agree with me, pretty much word for word: quote:
Reacting to the sentence Auschwitz survivor Eva Mozes Kor said that she was "disappointed" adding: "They are trying to teach a lesson that if you commit such a crime, you will be punished. But I do not think the court has acted properly in sentencing him to four years in jail. It is too late for that kind of sentence..."My preference would have been to sentence him to community service by speaking out against neo-Nazis. I would like the court to prove to me, a survivor, how four years in jail will benefit anybody."
quote:
truly, at 94 and in poor health, it matters little what happens to him.
Assuming you aren't yet 94, would you be happy for others to take the same view of you as and when you are?.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Interesting parallels to the Greek debt crisis here...
If the Greek debt debt is due to past actions which were instigated by a feckless and corrupt government (or the atrocities were instigated by a fascist dictatorship) - and everyone in both cases kind of knew what was happening, but also most people were incapable of behaving differently from the crowd (for Greece, that would mean refusing unreasonably generous pensions or paying taxes that all of your neighbours were not paying - for the third Reich that would mean refusing to obey orders an therefore having a high risk of coutmartial and execution).
One thing that seems to be in short supply in a lot of modern discussions is forgiveness and redemption. Do they only belong to our relationship with God, or should there be some provision in society? I am not convinced that - in the specific case of Oskar G, that this is the correct response for this particular person. However, it IS a continuing statement of contrition by Germany and a statement that that genocide is now Verboten. Again, on unpicking this a little, methinks there is a little too much noise.
Just like Angela is punishing the Greeks, this sentence is a self-punishment by the German administration. I think it's time for an end to flagellation and surplices.
[ 16. July 2015, 10:15: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But atrocities like the Holocaust are perpetrated by normal people. Yes, the leaders are often monsters, but everyone else is just people.
This cannot be an excuse.
The problem is that the historical context of the trial was one in which for decades mid ranking Nazis had escaped prosecution because of a much narrower interpretation of the laws by the German prosecutors - a process in which the rest of the West gave tacit approval to.
Fritz Bauer felt that the Frankfurt trials were a failure, because those convicted were presented as people outside the norm - indeed a large number of those who escaped sentencing had conducted themselves in far worse a manner than Oscar Groning.
So I can see why it would appear to some to be a cheap establishment of a principle many years after it would have actually mattered.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Not a philosopher, here, but the discussion of retributive vs. restorative justice puts me in mind of a quite different aspect of justice, which I don't, due to my ignorance of any formal disciplines in ethics / justice / philosophy, know how to label.
We are a social species, and the aspect of justice which demonstrates or displays the workings-out of any justice system, also matters. Justice must be seen to be delivered, even or especially by those not directly involved in the specific case.
[ 16. July 2015, 13:42: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I'm troubled that they changed the rules that were used for so may decades to decide who can be judged criminal. Comes across as "we have to keep finding people to punish, so we have to change the rules and target little fish we used to dismiss, now that all the big fish are gone." Political theater using this man as a pawn. That's immoral.
As to the idea evil doesn't happen unless lots of little people go along with it - I think we are getting into the "he who has no sin gets to throw the first stone" territory. Corporate America is notorious for ignoring moral (and civic) laws whenever profitable - in how they treat employees, in dumping instead of treating toxic wastes. Every corporate employee should be personally fined for the managers' decisions?
Even the ones who when they found out for sure what the company is doing quietly started looking for a different job?
I don't believe jailing someone sends a message to anyone other than "the court judged this man bad, I'm not in jail because I'm not as bad as he is."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... truly, at 94 and in poor health, it matters little what happens to him. It isn't about punishing him. It is about that message.
So he's a scapegoat, should accept that and not complain? Are you saying that what should determine who gets punished and who doesn't is the social message trying them conveys - largely irrespective of their personal guilt or even whether the evidence happens to be sufficient to convict them?
Belle Ringer I think you've got a point.
These are dreadful crimes. Even so, I don't think any state, or for that matter private victim, should be allowed to sit on its or their hands, in this case for at least 35 years and probably more. If it, or for that matter I, have the evidence, it or I should be expected to act on it then. If we don't, we should lose our right to pursue the case. This man hasn't been hidden from view. It seems this case was investigated as far back as 1978. It should either have been tried then or abandoned to history.
The only situation IMHO when the state or anyone else should be allowed to resurrect ancient cases, however bad, is where the alleged accused has managed to conceal themselves or to lurk in a jurisdiction from which they can't be extradited.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
As I read this thread, I was put in mind of the liberation theology conception of 'structural sin'. I think there is much to explore here, between individual and social responsibilities for wrong doing. If you think the whole society is flawed, as the Nazi society clearly was, just what is the individual culpability for getting caught up in it? Not much, it seems to me. It takes a brave soul to make a stand against a whole society, when the price of that stand is clearly the execution of that brave soul.
Best wishes, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As to "restored to a meaningful place in the community" in this instance, well, off the top of my head, having an opportunity to apologise to survivors for his part in the atrocities, perhaps undertake to testify in public settings such as schools as to how he became caught up in them and how others might be prevented from doing so, and so on. If he is genuinely contrite then I think this would be much more meaningful, constructive, and even cost-effective than being a decrepit minor celebrity in a jail somewhere, especially as I do not see him being a danger to the public.
My feelings exactly. Thank you for articulating them so well.
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
As I read this thread, I was put in mind of the liberation theology conception of 'structural sin'. I think there is much to explore here, between individual and social responsibilities for wrong doing. If you think the whole society is flawed, as the Nazi society clearly was, just what is the individual culpability for getting caught up in it? Not much, it seems to me. It takes a brave soul to make a stand against a whole society, when the price of that stand is clearly the execution of that brave soul.
I think that this is a valid point as well. Who knows how any of us might have responded in a similar situation.
I am well aware that there is a huge rise in types of neo-Nazi movements across a lot of Europe. Whilst I think it is unlikely that we will ever see something like Nazi Germany again, the dangers of racist movements are very real and it is easy for people to be swept along by feelings of anger and patriotism into a place where cruelty and barbarity can take hold.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I must be missing something. Please show me what.
As I understand it, the guy was something of a weasel when he was young, took a job with despicable people in a horrible setting, and basically did bookkeeping and scavenging through murder victims' belongings. And when he realized they were committing straight out murder, he wangled his way out of the place and took another job, rather than protesting or doing anything to stop the evil.
Okay, this is all loathly (well, maybe not the bookkeeping per se), but is it actually assisting in murder? I mean to the extent that it should be considered a war crime, with him held partly responsible for many thousand deaths. Because if so, then the people who delivered the vegetables were also complicit--the people who put fuel in the cars--the people who put up the fences, changed the light bulbs, and so forth. And I agree that they are guilty of something, to the extent that they realized what was going on and did crap-all to try to stop it. What exactly that would be in human law I don't know. (Being a weasel is not a technical term)
But it's not the same thing as being a prison guard. It's not the same as sorting people to determine who gets gassed first, or going into houses and dragging innocent people out to their death.
I think treating this fellow as if he were on a par with those people is really cheapening the worst evil.
What am I missing?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think people should be treated with humanity as far as is possible in view of their dangerousness,
Here is where we definitely differ. A young former child soldier is more dangerous than an quadriplegic, octogenarian former child rapist and serial killer.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
His crime is, in a way, more serious than Mengele's.
This is a ridiculous assertion.
Clipped of context, yes. In its context, not as much.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I agree only too wholeheartedly that great evil happens because others allow it, but that does not alleviate the actual perpetrator's responsibility
Who in the Hell said it did? I clearly said the evil act was worse. In those clear and unambiguous words.
I said that facilitating evil was more serious. As in 'significant or worrying because of possible danger or risk'
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The whole tragedy of such affairs is that most people act unawares and don't think they are like media monsters.
That is exactly my point. But we have a history of point the finger in other directions. The Nazis were evil, the Germans allowed it. They, always they.
Who bombed Iraq and Afghanistan? Bush and Blair? They made the order, we allowed them to continue.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I've read a bit more now.
We draw different conclusions, I fear, from that article. He gradually decided he did not wish to be there and incrementally made an effort to leave. And eventually came to the conclusion that the whole thing was wrong. Congratulations to Gröning, he is an average human being.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
From the above it emerges that Gröning came to the authorities' attention solely because he spoke out publicly against Holocaust denial. He didn't need to do that, and I'd suggest it's a major mitigating factor.
No disagreement that it is a mitigating factor. I do think major might be an overstatement. He did more than many. Presumably at no perceived risk, though. Still, he did not have to and it is a positive that he did.
quote:
Reacting to the sentence Auschwitz survivor Eva Mozes:"My preference would have been to sentence him to community service by speaking out against neo-Nazis. I would like the court to prove to me, a survivor, how four years in jail will benefit anybody."
No problem here either.
EXCEPT the message should be not only it did happen, but that ordinary people allow and facilitate extraordinary evil.
NB, holocaust deniers are not solely Neo-Nazi. So I think a broader audience for even the minimal message is better.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
truly, at 94 and in poor health, it matters little what happens to him.
Assuming you aren't yet 94, would you be happy for others to take the same view of you as and when you are?.
What I was saying is that he is in ill health and 94. My point was not that the elderly are useless or should be ignored, but that the odds are very high he will be dead soon so prison won't be much of a punishment regardless. And, in fairness, he will be of limited use campaigning outside.
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem is that the historical context of the trial was one in which for decades mid ranking Nazis had escaped prosecution because of a much narrower interpretation of the laws by the German prosecutors - a process in which the rest of the West gave tacit approval to.
From what little I've read the West gave, not tacit approval, but the directive. It was part of the bolstering against the communists.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
So he's a scapegoat,
No, not by any definition of the word.
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Originally posted by Porridge:
We are a social species, and the aspect of justice which demonstrates or displays the workings-out of any justice system, also matters. Justice must be seen to be delivered, even or especially by those not directly involved in the specific case.
This.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
...restorative justice...
I know this is well meant. However, it is not possible with the Nazi atrocities. I'm reminded of Erna Paris' book Long Shadows (a review here), where a Holocaust survivor who has presented to a group in Germany somewhere is asked how the younger generation, the children and grandchildren of those alive during WW2 can comfort Holocaust survivors. The answer was a succinct "you can't". Because it cannot be done. And to attempt to leads to some unfortunate revisionism of history.
As well meant as the suggestion of restorative justice is, the very suggestion of it conveys the incomplete understanding of what the Holocaust was and means.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The principles of restorative justive have been implemented, for instance, to address the genocide in Rwanda and the apartheid years in South Africa. Why not the Holocaust?
Like I said, the term "restorative justice" is very broad, so I would be careful of saying there are instances it can't apply to.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The principles of restorative justive have been implemented, for instance, to address the genocide in Rwanda and the apartheid years in South Africa. Why not the Holocaust?
Like I said, the term "restorative justice" is very broad, so I would be careful of saying there are instances it can't apply to.
80% of the whites in South Africa didn't support it. I don't know the stats for Rwanda. With the Holocaust, we've got revisionist history that contaminates it from the communist years and the cold war.
As far as I could envision, if you wanted restorative justice re the Holocaust, Israel would probably have to sign on.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It depends who the parties are. In this case we have an offender, we have victims or their immediate relatives, and, at this distance, some predisposition by at least some on either side to envisage a procedure of some sort.
I think an encounter as described above would be more useful than a prison term in this instance. This in no way settles all Holocaust-related issues, any more than the criminal trial was supposed to.
It's about making justice meaningful for the players involved.
(By the way, I am also sceptical about the broad implementation of RJ in Rwanda and SA, but you can't say it wasn't attempted. And besides, my view is that the mistake is to try and implement it on a wide scale and not case-by-case).
[ 16. July 2015, 20:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
If you think the whole society is flawed, as the Nazi society clearly was, just what is the individual culpability for getting caught up in it? Not much, it seems to me. It takes a brave soul to make a stand against a whole society, when the price of that stand is clearly the execution of that brave soul.
I was an exchange student in Germany in the mid-1950s. The first month, I lived with a German family, whose father had joined the Nazi party after Hitler came to power. During the 1920s, the Nazi party had many highly disreputable members. After Hitler came to power, he got rid of the openly disreputable people and recruited respectable middle-class people to make the party look good.
I am fairly certain that these late recruits were not told everything that was going on. Some of them would have protested. The man I knew appeared to be baffled by what had happened. He, like almost everyone who was an adult when Hitler came to power, had had most of his schooling while the Kaiser was on the throne. The pupils were indoctrinated with the idea that they belonged to the government and they owed it their complete obedience. No one ever suggested the idea that it was possible for the government to do evil.
I am very glad that it's not my job to judge the complicity of these people. Their joining the Nazi party greatly strengthened it, but they did not participate in any of the overt evil actions.
Moo
[ 16. July 2015, 21:52: Message edited by: Moo ]
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
but they did not participate in any of the overt evil actions.
Well, see, here is the problem with that. Hitler and the Nazis did not secretly strip German Jews of their citizenship, Kristallnacht was not committed quietly nor were the arrests, deportation or transportation. Nor did they do it slowly. People might not have known exactly what was happening, but they could be fairly certain it wasn't nice.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
but they did not participate in any of the overt evil actions.
Well, see, here is the problem with that. Hitler and the Nazis did not secretly strip German Jews of their citizenship, Kristallnacht was not committed quietly nor were the arrests, deportation or transportation. Nor did they do it slowly. People might not have known exactly what was happening, but they could be fairly certain it wasn't nice.
I said they didn't participate. Moreover, they had the idea that the government could do no wrong.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I do not know that I buy that at all.
But let's say they did. They had to also buy that Jews were evil and degenerate, sub-human.
There were German dissenters, there were just not enough. The people who agreed, did not care, accepted or feared to challenge outnumbered them
We are the government. In every single instance of government, in every good and every terrible situation, the government is the people.
I do not say this in any holier-than-thou way. I do not say this because I think I would be better. I say this because I fear I would not.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
We are the government. In every single instance of government, in every good and every terrible situation, the government is the people.
That was not the belief of the ex-Nazis I knew. I'm not defending their point of view; I'm just telling you what it was.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I was an exchange student in Germany in the mid-1950s. The first month, I lived with a German family, whose father had joined the Nazi party after Hitler came to power. During the 1920s, the Nazi party had many highly disreputable members. After Hitler came to power, he got rid of the openly disreputable people and recruited respectable middle-class people to make the party look good.
I am fairly certain that these late recruits were not told everything that was going on. Some of them would have protested. The man I knew appeared to be baffled by what had happened. He, like almost everyone who was an adult when Hitler came to power, had had most of his schooling while the Kaiser was on the throne. The pupils were indoctrinated with the idea that they belonged to the government and they owed it their complete obedience. No one ever suggested the idea that it was possible for the government to do evil.
I am very glad that it's not my job to judge the complicity of these people. Their joining the Nazi party greatly strengthened it, but they did not participate in any of the overt evil actions.
Moo
I have photos of several of my cousins wearing various uniforms of armed forces, Hitler Youth, and frequently swastikas. Their children and grandchildren tell somewhat freer stories of the activities of their ancestors than you heard. Thousands upon thousands of young men participated in atrocities in the east, but also in the west. Tulles is a good example from 1944. These things were so common they are hard to catalogue.
[ 16. July 2015, 23:49: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Eutychus, thank you for that detail about criminal procedure in various of the mainland European countries. Virtually all criminal prosecutions here are between the State (including all those started by a government official or a body such as the RSPCA acting under particular legislation) and the accused
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Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Rather than confining Oscar Groning to prison, I think it would be better if, for so long as he is able, he is made to visit schools in Germany and speak about what went on at Auschwitz, about the lies that people like him told themselves (and others) to justify their behaviour, and about the ease with which apparently 'ordinary' men and women participated in such unspeakable acts.
To educate future generations in how quickly people can slide into barbarism would achieve something: incarcerating a very old man is expensive and pointless.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Oskar Gröning appeared in the 2005 BBC series "Auschwitz: The Nazis and the Final Solution". There are extensive interviews with him. This excerpt and others from that particular episode of the series give some idea of his attitude to being held responsible - this portion in particular.
On the other hand the final interview piece with him also gives another side to him.
Perhaps he condemned himself by allowing himself to be interviewed, considering he had previously been considered for prosecution, but the case being dropped.
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Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...Kristallnacht was not committed quietly nor were the arrests, deportation or transportation.
Kristallnacht was carried out very publicly, but the Nazis tried to avoid publicity in their subsequent actions against Jews. After Kristallnacht quite a few Germans spoke out against it. They believed all the lies about the Jews, but they still objected to vandalizing houses of worship. From then on the Gestapo were as circumspect as possible.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I was an exchange student in Germany in the mid-1950s. The first month, I lived with a German family, whose father had joined the Nazi party after Hitler came to power. During the 1920s, the Nazi party had many highly disreputable members. After Hitler came to power, he got rid of the openly disreputable people and recruited respectable middle-class people to make the party look good.
I am fairly certain that these late recruits were not told everything that was going on. Some of them would have protested. The man I knew appeared to be baffled by what had happened. He, like almost everyone who was an adult when Hitler came to power, had had most of his schooling while the Kaiser was on the throne. The pupils were indoctrinated with the idea that they belonged to the government and they owed it their complete obedience. No one ever suggested the idea that it was possible for the government to do evil.
I am very glad that it's not my job to judge the complicity of these people. Their joining the Nazi party greatly strengthened it, but they did not participate in any of the overt evil actions.
Moo
I have photos of several of my cousins wearing various uniforms of armed forces, Hitler Youth, and frequently swastikas. Their children and grandchildren tell somewhat freer stories of the activities of their ancestors than you heard. Thousands upon thousands of young men participated in atrocities in the east, but also in the west. Tulles is a good example from 1944. These things were so common they are hard to catalogue.
Is that better or worse than the firebombing of Dresden ?
Should we locate and prosecute all the remaining personnel involved in bomber command and prosecute them ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have photos of several of my cousins wearing various uniforms of armed forces, Hitler Youth, and frequently swastikas. Their children and grandchildren tell somewhat freer stories of the activities of their ancestors than you heard.
I was talking very specifically about the ex-Nazis I knew who had been recruited by the party to provide window-dressing. The party needed to keep them, so they were not asked to do anything any of them might find revolting. They were also kept from knowledge of what was going on. Of course there were rumors, but the problem with rumors is that you can't tell which to believe. Remember, these men trusted the government.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Is that better or worse than the firebombing of Dresden ?
Should we locate and prosecute all the remaining personnel involved in bomber command and prosecute them ?
Because the winning side did Dresden, there would be no prosecutions. Because some of the guilty Germans were useful to the winners they didn't prosecute them either.
In an ideal world, war crimes would be prosecuted. In more recent times, because they are part of powerful nations, people involved in torture and its authorization are not prosecuted, nor are the leaders prosecuted for lying to their people so as to justify war, i.e. Bush, Blair etc.
But when people who are involved in atrocities can be prosecuted, they should be. One can have sympathy for views of avoiding actual justice only at the peril of justice at all.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Sorry, np, in an ideal world war crimes wouldn't happen.
As far as comparing war atrocities, it is problematic.
Dresden and Tokyo were horrific and unjustifiable.
But I think one can conclude that the systematic attempt to exterminate an entire people. The building of an industry to do so, whilst torturing them and working them to death. The casual treatment of humans as pests to be exterminated. Yes, that's worse.
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Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As far as comparing war atrocities, it is problematic.
Dresden and Tokyo were horrific and unjustifiable.
But I think one can conclude that the systematic attempt to exterminate an entire people. The building of an industry to do so, whilst torturing them and working them to death. The casual treatment of humans as pests to be exterminated. Yes, that's worse.
Thank you for that. Although I'm prepared to say raising whole cities to the ground wasn't only justifiable but also necessary.
At the Nuremburg trials Herman Goering, who signed the death warrant of countless Jewish people without a second thought, used Dresden as a comparison to the Holocaust.
If he's looking up from Hell I'm sure he'd be delighted to still find folks siding with a deliberately cynical and twisted attempt to soften Nazi atrocities.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But I think one can conclude that the systematic attempt to exterminate an entire people. The building of an industry to do so, whilst torturing them and working them to death. The casual treatment of humans as pests to be exterminated. Yes, that's worse.
Hitler knew of the extermination of the native peoples in the western hemisphere, and referenced it. There's a difference in historical times, that's about it.
Is it worse to gas people or firebomb them? Both are indiscriminate. The end result is the same. The bombing is less personal; there's no deception and no looking into the faces of the people before you kill them. I guess I'd say these differences are cosmetic and have little to do with the end result of killing. Both have their own efficiencies.
I don't think I can accept that one method of indiscriminate mass killing is better than another. Both are morally insane. However they are justified.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If he's looking up from Hell I'm sure he'd be delighted to still find folks siding with a deliberately cynical and twisted attempt to soften Nazi atrocities.
If this is in any way aimed my way, I take great offence. I am unwilling to soften anything about anything when it comes to any of this. Which is why I refuse the restorative justice ideas completely in these situations.
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