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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: British Royal Family and Nazism
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I read that the queen was 7 years old when she did that. I reckon that might make the footage about 1932-33, right at the start of Hitler's accession to power in Germany.
I guess it may do something to confirm Edward VIII's pro-Nazi sympathies, plus the affection the family had for him at that stage. But it tells you absolutely nothing about the wartime and present understandings of any member of the Royal Family still alive.
Its publication also confirms that the bottom-feeding tendencies of The Sun remain alive and well. This is just a piece of shit-stirring.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lowlands_boy
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# 12497
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Posted
It's not as if the queen has a long history of Nazi sympathy as an adult is it? The war hadn't even started then. It's hardly fair to hold anyone to account over their actions as a seven year old. How well does anyone understand the world at that age?
As for Prince Phillip, his list of gaffes like his one with the community workers is enormous. Every time he pulls a new one out, media everywhere prints an article listing all his previous favourites.
He's not a cause for concern either though . Non PC, or just prone to gaffes. It's not as if the royals have their finger on the red button like some crackpot dictators either have or would like to have.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
This seems like a worthy historical document to me, and the knee-jerk defences of the monarchy fall flat: these were not just children, these were adults encouraging their children in fascist salutes for the camera.
In context, this shows how attractive the ideals of fascism were to the aristocracy in Europe and shows the lie of the idea that the British monarchy were somehow immune from it. In fact the reverse was true, the British royals were very close to Nazis in the 1920s and 30s.
The other interesting aspect is how today the Palace and others want to paint this as youthful indiscretions - when had other sections of society been filmed doing it, this whitewashing would not happen. Instead there are many photos of Mosley's blackshirts saluting in every GCSE textbook showing how close we came to having fascism as a major political force in the early 20 century. These photos of the Royals deserve to be also seen in that wider context of understanding British culture between the wars.
Claiming that the Sun has somehow done anything wrong here seems bizarre to me, nobody is denying that it happened.
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arse
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Nothing knee-jerk in my post, mr cheesy. Since the other folks in the footage are all dead, the way this is presented is a pretty obvious queen-smear on the basis of a 1933 private movie clip when she was 7. Sure the footage is interesting and of some historical value. Is that the way the Sun is portraying it?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Nothing knee-jerk in my post, mr cheesy. Since the other folks in the footage are all dead, the way this is presented is a pretty obvious queen-smear on the basis of a 1933 private movie clip when she was 7. Sure the footage is interesting and of some historical value. Is that the way the Sun is portraying it?
I think queen-smear just about covers it.
What's even more interesting is the suggestion in the Sunday Times (behind a paywall) about where the footage came from...
Apparently, there's a chance it came from the Duke of Windsor's household rather than Buckingham Palace. His house and contents were of course sold to....*
*UK readers are free to google, and will understand when they see it exactly where the ST may be going with this.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Lovable family irony or cause for concern?
Having picked two examples by two different people eighty years apart, I'd say there wasn't too much cause for concern.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Interesting to ponder what may have happened if Edward VIII had remained king.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Something that you may not know, but the Girlguiding movement uses raising a right arm in the air and holding it, as shown there, to call for silence. What is supposed to happen is that as people notice they shut up and raise their hands too, and the room / field / wherever becomes silent and the announcement can be made.
My first thought looking at that was that it looked like the Queen Mother / Duchess of York was trying to call them to silence and attention for the filming.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Nothing knee-jerk in my post, mr cheesy. Since the other folks in the footage are all dead, the way this is presented is a pretty obvious queen-smear on the basis of a 1933 private movie clip when she was 7. Sure the footage is interesting and of some historical value. Is that the way the Sun is portraying it?
Think what you like about your post - I consider it a knee-jerk attempt to defend the indefensible and the ignore the reality of history.
I don't think this is any kind of smear of anyone who us alive - although the 'saintly' Queen Mother is once again linked to the most disgusting behaviours.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Indeed, and one of the examples is a nonogenerian (with an irascibility common to both naval officers - I've served with a few and was one, and to others of his generation).
Just in case anyone runs with this and thinks - "Oh, Phil the Greek, bit of a fascist - and he was German nudge nudge wink wink, etc" - it's worth remembering what he got up to between 1939 and 1945:
Passed out top of his term at Dartmouth 1939
4 months escorting convoys in the Indian Ocean
took part in the battle of and evacuation from Crete
took part in the battle of Cape Matapan (mentioned in despatches)
east coast convoys (navigator)
Sicily landings - 1st lieutenant of a destroyer
Japanese surrender in Tokyo bay
I mean, it's obvious he's a wrong'un...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Something that you may not know, but the Girlguiding movement uses raising a right arm in the air and holding it, as shown there, to call for silence. What is supposed to happen is that as people notice they shut up and raise their hands too, and the room / field / wherever becomes silent and the announcement can be made.
My first thought looking at that was that it looked like the Queen Mother / Duchess of York was trying to call them to silence and attention for the filming.
The film exists, it would be easy to prove it was not a Nazi salute. In fact nobody is suggesting this.
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arse
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
these were not just children, these were adults encouraging their children in fascist salutes for the camera.
In context, this shows how attractive the ideals of fascism were to the aristocracy in Europe
Does it really show that? The film (all about ten seconds of it) appears to show the then Queen Elizabeth laughing and the young princesses dancing. Is this really an admission that they found Nazism appealing or is it just a family larking around in front of a camera in the way that thousands of families have since?
There's this new craze is Germany...all waving their arms in the air in salute like Romans...how frightfully bizarre...Mr Hitler does it all the time...how exhausting...what's wrong with a handshake?...Oh Lilibet can do it. Have a go Margaret...is it time for tea?
quote:
In fact the reverse was true, the British royals were very close to Nazis in the 1920s and 30s.
In what way? Lots of people in British society (across the political spectrum) thought Hitler had redeeming aspects, at least at first. People don't seem to pillory David Lloyd George for this, for example.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Sorry: the then Duchess of York.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
mr cheesy, my first thought was that looks like the call to silence/order. My second was that I'm glad that The Sun is not filming any Rainbow / Brownie / Guide meetings because a shot of everyone being called to order could easily end up as the next headline - Girlguiding Movement in Nazi salute.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Unbelievable. I am utterly astonished at how many of you live in a delusion of a perfect Royal family. They are deeply flawed people, corrupted over many generations by unearned wealth and privilege. Being filmed on camera doing a Nazi salute (the comparison with girlguiding is ridiculous and wrong - angle of arm, posture, direction of palm etc) is the least of the known disgusting behaviours of the Windsors.
[ 19. July 2015, 09:11: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Jack o' the Green
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# 11091
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Posted
It isn’t a delusion, unless you can show the views of people like myself, Barnabas62 et al are going to be held irrespective of any contrary evidence. I don't see any mention of the Royal family being perfect. It's simply a recognition of there being a context including the age of the Queen, what the Royal family did during the war to bolster the war effort and defeat Facism, the point in Hitler's rise that this occurred and that we are viewing the movie post knowledge of the Holocaust.
[ 19. July 2015, 09:24: Message edited by: Jack o' the Green ]
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
My understanding of 'Phil The Greek's' background is that it was pretty mixed ... he did have relatives who sympathised with the Nazis but in addition to his own war record there's also the fact that his mother chose to stay in Greece and sit things out after the German invasion.
She also sheltered Jewish fugitives in her own house and helped them elude the Nazis.
She later became an Orthodox nun.
Yes, Prince Philip is a curmugeonly old reactionary but my brother knew an old sailor who served with him during the War and he spoke very highly of him - both as an officer and as man. He told my brother how when an unexpected inspection by the top-brass was suddenly announced, the Prince grabbed a mop and brush and joined the men in scrubbing the decks even though that wasn't expected of him. Apparently, he would never ask his men to do anything he wasn't prepared to do himself.
As for the apparent support for Nazism on the part of the British aristocracy - yes, some did have sympathies along those lines - one of the Mitford girls married Sir Oswald Moseley but another became a Communist.
'Diana the fascist, Jessica the Communist ...'
If we're going to call the British aristocracy and royal family on this, then why not the SNP and Plaid Cymru?
In Wales, Plaid has had to come to terms with inter-war comments by some leading Welsh Nationalists who expressed support for some Hitlerian views. The Nazis tried to court the favour of rather 'romantic' nationalist groups all over Europe - including Irish, Scots, Breton and Welsh nationalists. Indeed, in C J Sansom's counter-factual novel set in a post-war Britain which came to terms with Hitler in 1940, the Scots Nationalists are very firmly on the side of the Nazis.
I agree with Barnabas62, this is little more than shit-stirring on the part of The Sun.
You don't have to be a raving Royalist to see that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
It isn't an either-or, Gamaliel. Other organisations with shameful past associations with fascism should also be open about it.
[ 19. July 2015, 10:10: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I wonder whether mr cheesy would think it reasonable to be held accountable for the rest of his life for all the things he did and said when he was seven years old.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Nothing knee-jerk in my post, mr cheesy. Since the other folks in the footage are all dead, the way this is presented is a pretty obvious queen-smear on the basis of a 1933 private movie clip when she was 7. Sure the footage is interesting and of some historical value. Is that the way the Sun is portraying it?
Think what you like about your post - I consider it a knee-jerk attempt to defend the indefensible and the ignore the reality of history.
I don't think this is any kind of smear of anyone who us alive - although the 'saintly' Queen Mother is once again linked to the most disgusting behaviours.
Lets look at the reality of history then shall we. the picture was taken in 1932-3. The Nazi were only just coming to power and people could have been forgiven for not knowing much about them. Much better known was the fascist government in Italy which had been in power for some time.
Now the government there was a brutal dictatorship. The Government of the Soviet Union at the time was also a brutal dictatorship and there was nothing that the Italian government had done by that time that was any worse than what the communist governments of Lenin and Stalin had done.
On this very forum you, mr cheesy, have defended communism, said you can't judge it by the excesses of Stalinism, said that the real problem is anti-communists and specifically defended the communist dictatorships in Vietnam and Cuba. You have done all this in the full knowledge of the horrors inflicted by communism through the years. The governments of Vietnam and Cuba have been just as brutal and dictatorial as that of Italy had been at that time.
One important difference to note though is that the royals seem to be 'larking about' in the picture whereas your comments on communist dictatorship appear to be entirely in earnest.
[ 19. July 2015, 10:20: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Hilarious. Comparing 1930s German fascism with the "concept" of communism.
There is no comparison. There is nothing good in the "concept" of fascism, and the 1930s were the height of disgusting Nazi behaviour.
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arse
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
I'm sorry, Mr Cheesy, but what is incredible is that you are letting your obvious dislike of the Royal family blind you to what people are saying, which is that there is a context to this film which pretty much negates the meaning The Sun has assigned to it. No one has suggested that the Royals are without fault, but you seem to be suggesting that they should have been able to predict Hitler's actions at the beginning of his rise to power, and to act accordingly. At that point, Nazism was just another European political party with some inspiring sounding rhetoric. It is doubtful that the Duke and Duchess of York knew any more than what they saw in the news reels.
And, I'm afraid I agree with B62, that this is intended to smear the Queen. The tone of the report in The Sun strongly implies it.
If you want to attack the Royal family re. Nazi sympathies, then Edward VIII is very definitely open to attack. His behaviour during the war was pretty appalling, from what I have read.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Hilarious. Comparing 1930s German fascism with the "concept" of communism.
There is no comparison. There is nothing good in the "concept" of fascism, and the 1930s were the height of disgusting Nazi behaviour.
Disgusting communist behaviour reached similar heights in that time period.
And you haven't just defended the abstract concept of communism, you've defended specific communist governments which is something a great deal less abstract than the royals were doing in that picture.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How pathetically foolish to ascribe Nazi sympathies to an English family having a bit of fun THAT side of history.
As for Phil the Greek, he just gets better with age.
As for as for Edward VIII, a certain notorious and nonetheless great historian told me "They'd have hung him if they could.".
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is nothing good in the "concept" of fascism, and the 1930s were the height of disgusting Nazi behaviour.
The early 1930s weren't the height of "disgusting Nazi behaviour" by any stretch of the facts.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
the 1930s were the height of disgusting Nazi behaviour.
By 1939 Hitler was responsible for approximately ten thousand deaths, and Stalin for about four million.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I am rather amazed at all this.
I was in St Peter's Square a few times during Pope Benedict's pontificate and used to think "Holy Father, you really do NOT want to greet the crowds like this. Some fool is going to photograph you waving like this and impute all sorts of things towards you. Oh Yeah, he was in the Hitler Youth - look he still gives the salute".
We have no sound to the film clip of the Royal family. They are playing with dogs and larking about on the lawn. How on earth does this equate with a Nazi salute? The young Princess Elizabeth waves her hand the first time. Were they really thinking "Oh, let's salute that nice Mr Hitler in the way he likes. We hear he likes puppies too"? Had they been goose-stepping or marching (as the Nazis did) I might be convinced. But I can't see it with girls playing with their dogs and dancing about. Seems remarkably un-Nazi to me.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Please show anything I have ever said in support of Stalin. Communism does not equal Stalinism. Fascism always involves strong beating the weak. Always.
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arse
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
It's a very short clip, they're larking about, we don't know what they were saying.
Even assuming the Royal family was commenting positively on Hitler, anyone familiar with newspapers / magazines in 1933 could pull out examples of pro-Nazi sentiments from people who changed their minds as the decade wore on.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Please show anything I have ever said in support of Stalin. Communism does not equal Stalinism. Fascism always involves strong beating the weak. Always.
No. Dictatorship always involves the strong beating the weak, including the Cuban and Vietnamese dictatorships you have defended.
As for saying that Communism is not equal to its most brutal forms you could say the same thing about fascism and it would be no less convincing as a defence (i.e not very convincing). And, as I suspect you well know, mass murder by communists did not start or end with Stalin. It started with Lenin who was the inspiration for every communist government after that, including the Cuban and Vietnamese dictatorships you defend.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Nope. Rubbish. Fascism is the rule by the strong.
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arse
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Nope. Rubbish. Fascism is the rule by the strong.
Hmmm. Interesting definition of the word 'fascism'. The dictatorship of Ho Chi Minh in North Vietnam was extremely strong in that country. Fidel Castro was able to rule Cuba from a position of great strength within that country.
A group of poor and ill educated neo-nazis in a western country today however might be extremely weak.
So by that definition the neo-nazis would not be fascist whilst the Cuban and Vietnamese dictatorships you defended would be fascist. Are you sure that's the definition you want to use?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Yeah. Let's get back to talking about Nazi sympathies of the British monarchy rather than your woeful understanding of my position on communism. Which is irrelevant anyway, as I have never justified these regimes, just pointed out they were sometimes better than the regimes we did support.
As it is, you are left arguing fascism is sometimes OK. It isn't.
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arse
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
I agree with others about the bottom feeding tendencies of the Sun.
As far as viewing historical events in their context is concerned, this Guardian piece from a few years back is instructive, as is this photograph of the England football team in 1938
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
The Nazi sympathies of Edward VIII are hardly a secret, are they?
To that extent, the S*n's 'revelation' hardly lifts the lid on the Royal Family's historic Nazi connections because that lift is already well and truly lifted. What it does do is drag the Queen into it on the basis of something she may or may not have done at the age of seven. And that truly is muck-raking.
Maybe they should have put a banner headline over it like THE TRUTH or something ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The clip appears to show the Duchess and her elder daughter being encouraged by their uncle to Seig Heil the cameraman, who is probably their father, the future King George VI. Evidence of Nazi sympathies, or playing up to the camera? Let's get real, shall we?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Nothing knee-jerk in my post, mr cheesy. Since the other folks in the footage are all dead, the way this is presented is a pretty obvious queen-smear on the basis of a 1933 private movie clip when she was 7. Sure the footage is interesting and of some historical value. Is that the way the Sun is portraying it?
Think what you like about your post - I consider it a knee-jerk attempt to defend the indefensible and the ignore the reality of history.
Of course you're entitled to your opinion about what I wrote, but you weren't in my head when I wrote it. Disagree with what I posted as much as you like - I'm simply saying it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction because it wasn't. I thought about it. Feel free to call it a stupid post, but it wasn't a thoughtless one.
Perhaps it's worth adding that I'm more Republican than Royalist. I do have a good deal of respect for the way the Queen has carried out the role of constitutional monarch in a fast changing world. Which doesn't mean that I rate the institution all that highly.
[ 19. July 2015, 15:54: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Are we happy then with Philip's comment about sponging?
Does it make it better/different that, were the same comment to be made by me/us in a similar setting (or in the workplace), we would be investigated for racism?
[ 19. July 2015, 14:02: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The clip appears to show the Duchess and her elder daughter being encouraged by their uncle to Seig Heil the cameraman, who is probably their father, the future King George VI. Evidence of Nazi sympathies, or playing up to the camera? Let's get real, shall we?
And we all thought that Prince Harry's Nazi uniform was fancy dress and his nickname for a fellow officer from Pakistan was just a bit cheeky ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Incidentally, to suggest that the Nazis were benign in 1933 is not correct. They'd already opened the first concentration camp and were already imprisoning political opponents, already burning books, already attacking Jewish people and businesses.
The fact is that fascism is very attractive to the aristocracy as it speaks to their inherited sense of being born to rule. At root, fascism was always very dangerous and many people knew it from the earliest decades of the twentieth century. Pretending that the British royals were not intoxicated for a time by the promises of the German fascists is just a lie. Fortunately others with more sense persuaded them to stop before it was too late.
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arse
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I agree with others about the bottom feeding tendencies of the Sun.
As far as viewing historical events in their context is concerned, this Guardian piece from a few years back is instructive, as is this photograph of the England football team in 1938
I recall having a bout of flu in a house in the Irish countryside in my student days, and reading the 1930s bound volumes of Punch and the London Illustrated News; I was struck by Punch's mockery of the Nazis and the Illustrated News' neutral coverage. Discussing this with the father of the house, who spent the 30s as a student, he told me that I would be even more astonished at the widespread feeling that, however distasteful methods might be, the four dictators of the time were felt to be the wave of the future; democratic institutions were thought to be a failure. He added that revulsion against Jews was almost universal among all classes, with an occasional pocket of sympathy among scholars and socialists.
As I learned more over the years, Canada was no noble exception, with MacKenzie King fawning over Hitler (and we all try to forget that McGill, among other universities, maintained a numerus clausus in the professional faculties as late as 1947).
Princesses under the age of 10 play-acting is not a serious concern in these circumstances. Edward, however....
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Incidentally, to suggest that the Nazis were benign in 1933 is not correct. They'd already opened the first concentration camp and were already imprisoning political opponents, already burning books, already attacking Jewish people and businesses.
The fact is that fascism is very attractive to the aristocracy as it speaks to their inherited sense of being born to rule. At root, fascism was always very dangerous and many people knew it from the earliest decades of the twentieth century. Pretending that the British royals were not intoxicated for a time by the promises of the German fascists is just a lie. Fortunately others with more sense persuaded them to stop before it was too late.
The appeasement party in parliament (populated almost entirely by people like Halifax) would have settled with Hitler at any time until late 1940 (when the big raids on the cities began). Nazism was only one small step away from the kind of rule that they sought for the UK.
After the war they fought tooth and nail against the foundation of the NHS. They were singularly successful with the Consultants Contracts which have stayed pretty much on the same basis until now (ie private work permitted alongside NHS work).
The "aristocracy" retain their racist and sexist views today.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Not clear how that relates to what I wrote.
Incidentally, there is a very interesting article from the Daily Mail in 2006 where Prince Philip admitted to having found the Nazis attractive.
quote:
He added that there was 'a lot of enthusiasm for the Nazis at the time, the economy was good, we were anti-Communist and who knew what was going to happen to the regime?' Philip stressed that he was never 'conscious of anybody in the family actually expressing anti-Semitic views'. But he went on to say there were 'inhibitions about the Jews' and 'jealousy of their success'.
I don't link to the Mail so google it if you are interested.
Many of the royals across Europe were closely related and several of Philip's relations married top Nazis.
The fascination with the fascists ran deep.
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arse
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Incidentally, to suggest that the Nazis were benign in 1933 is not correct.
Well indeed. I may have missed it, but I'm not sure if anyone has?
quote:
Pretending that the British royals were not intoxicated for a time by the promises of the German fascists is just a lie.
Do you really think so? All of them? I mean, most of these Nazis were lower middle class.
But to the extent that they were or were not 'intoxicated', they were presumably following a trend that existed through various levels of society?
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
After the war they fought tooth and nail against the foundation of the NHS. They were singularly successful with the Consultants Contracts which have stayed pretty much on the same basis until now (ie private work permitted alongside NHS work).
The "aristocracy" retain their racist and sexist views today.
Who are 'they' in this instance? The creation of a national health service had cross-party support.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Incidentally, there is a very interesting article from the Daily Mail in 2006 where Prince Philip admitted to having found the Nazis attractive.
I don't link to the Mail so google it if you are interested.
The article can be found here. The Duke of Edinburgh speaks of the popular view at the time, but he doesn't appear to comment on his own views.
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Doublethink.
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Are we happy then with Philip's comment about sponging?
Does it make it better/different that, were the same comment to be made by me/us in a similar setting (or in the workplace), we would be investigated for racism?
Personally, I tend to ascribe his increasing disinhibition to atrophy of the frontal lobes. (And if I were expected to work at 94 I'd be very pissed off.)
Whatever you say of Prince Phillip, he's not a Nazi.
[ 19. July 2015, 15:18: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Augustine the Aleut
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Posted
Anglican't writes:
quote:
The Duke of Edinburgh speaks of the popular view at the time, but he doesn't appear to comment on his own views.
Phil the Greek was apparently encouraged to leave Germany, where he was at Salem, the private school run by Kurt Hahn (still a Jew, although baptized after WWII), on account of his mockery of Nazi style. Hahn was himself fortunate to be able to make his own exit to Scotland, where he founded Gordonstoun, also attended by HRH. Given that many German princely types were on the side of the law & order Nazis as this was seen to be the wave of the future, Phil's departure and enrolment in the RN would have been read as a fairly strong statement against the Nazis.
It seems that he has many faults, but I would never have put sympathy for Adolph among them.
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
Remember also that the fascist type salute was not unique to fascism or Naziism. US school children of the time also used something very similar to salute the US flag (see Bellamy salute). The Olympic salute was also similar.
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spinner of webs
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Seth
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# 3623
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Posted
It's probably worth noting that one factor which may well have contributed to the royal family's antipathy towards communism was the murder of the Russian royal family during the revolution. IIRC, weren't they their relatives?
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
The last Kaiser, and the Tsar were first cousins of King George. All grandchildren of Victoria.
[ 19. July 2015, 16:10: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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