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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ten Commandments
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
Christianity teaches that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) was fulfilled in Jesus, and we are now operating under a New Covenant which has superseded it. But if we are no longer bound by the Old Covenant, why do we still feel bound by the Ten Commandments? I am not seeking to deny their validity, but only to explore the theological reasons why we do in fact make an exception for the Ten when we consider the rest of the 613 Jewish commandments to have lapsed.
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Because Jesus seemed to think they were important...?
Which of the ten commandments do you think is no longer relevant?
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arse
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Jack o' the Green
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# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Because Jesus seemed to think they were important...?
Which of the ten commandments do you think is no longer relevant?
Jesus seemed to think the Law was important. Not the 10 Commandments in isolation.
[ 25. July 2015, 12:20: Message edited by: Jack o' the Green ]
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Because Jesus seemed to think they were important...?
Which of the ten commandments do you think is no longer relevant?
I'm not denying any of them. As practical rules, they are still sound advice today, even if perhaps for different reasons than they were originally for a band of tribal desert nomads 3,000 years ago.
Instead I'm asking, theologically, what distinguishes them from the rest of the Mosaic commandments, that Christians should consider only them still binding while all the others have lapsed.
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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PilgrimVagrant
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# 18442
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Posted
I am not sure the distinction is theological, more pragmatic. There are good reasons why we should not murder each other, for example. There are no good reasons why we should not eat pork.
Cheers, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
fausto: Christianity teaches that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) was fulfilled in Jesus, and we are now operating under a New Covenant which has superseded it.
I always chuckle a bit when people start with "Christiany teaches that ..." as if these things were universal. This isn't really what Christianity teaches me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
fausto: Christianity teaches that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) was fulfilled in Jesus, and we are now operating under a New Covenant which has superseded it.
I always chuckle a bit when people start with "Christiany teaches that ..." as if these things were universal. This isn't really what Christianity teaches me.
Perhaps not, and perhaps I haven't expressed it as accurately as possible, but theologically it is the orthodox reason usually given why Christians don't feel obliged to keep all 613 of the Mosaic commandments.
[ 25. July 2015, 13:08: Message edited by: fausto ]
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
Perhaps not, and perhaps I haven't expressed it as accurately as possible, but thelogocally it is the orthodox reason usually given why Christians don't feel obliged to keep all 613 of the Mosaic commandments.
I suspect the reality is that the 10 commandments are fairly easy to remember and seem fairly universal in nature. They are easy to carve or write onto displays at the front of church and occupy about the same amount of space as the Lord's prayer.
Unlike the other commandments, they're easy to understand.
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arse
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Because Jesus seemed to think they were important...?
Which of the ten commandments do you think is no longer relevant?
Jesus seemed to think the Law was important. Not the 10 Commandments in isolation.
Jesus singled out the commandments to love God and to love your neighbor as the two greatest. We feel bound by those as well, but he didn't place any similar special emphasis on the Ten.
Jesus also said that not one jot or tittle of the Law would pass away until all was accomplished. Christians usually interpret the Atonement to have been what he was referring to, and to have been accomplished through the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
Do Jews place much emphasis on the Ten Commandments relative to the rest of the Torah? I have a feeling they don't but am open to correction.
[ 25. July 2015, 13:44: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Among Lutherans (and I thought pretty much all of the church, but what do I know?) we make a distinction between the moral Law and the ceremonial laws. The ceremonial laws are things like how to make sacrifices, tassels on your clothes, etc. and were given to the Jews for their benefit and have no application to Gentiles--or to Jews either after the coming of Christ, unless they want to carry on. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) But they are no longer binding, as the Jerusalem Council in the book of Acts came to understand (case in question was circumcision, as the foremost of those kind of laws). They have all been fulfilled in Christ.
The moral law is of course also perfectly fulfilled in Christ, and no longer "binds" us in the way that it did before him. Yet it is not something to just throw away and forget about, because it is written into the fabric of the universe--which is why we see so many fundamentally same versions of it in cultures around the world. And it is reflected in the universe because it has its roots in God's own nature. He is life, and gives life, and therefore "do not murder"; He is truth and faithfulness and keeps his promises, and therefore "do not commit adultery"; He gives all good things, and therefore "do not steal." Etc. etc. etc.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
If Christianity is (at least partly) about love your neighbor, than any of the old laws that describe love behavior are still important. This includes over half of the ten commandments. One can add a few others like paying your debts cheerfully, keeping your fences in good shape so your cattle don't wander and do mischief, things we classify today as negligence that results in harm for others.
But as to promoting the ten commandments, most churches I've been in have ditched the concept of sabbath and substituted tithing.
Sabbath was Saturday, and was a day of no work, even women got the day off from cooking; now it's a day to do yard work or house repairs, and in many households the women have to do extra work to prepare a fancier than usual meal because sabbath concept was ditched in favor of the feast day concept - preparing a feast is inconsistent with rest, so rest was eliminated (at least for women).
Many churches promote tithing far more than they promote "don't work on the sabbath."
So it's not really the ten commandments being encouraged, but 9 plus an outside rule.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Jesus went BEYOND the 10 commandments - a lustful look is adultery of the heart, anger is murder etc.
Was that going beyond the law, or was it explaining what the law always meant, from God's viewpoint?
Some people, faced with a rule, love to see how close they can get to the line, argue if they stick a toe over the line they haven't crossed the line yet because the foot itself is still on the right side of the line.
The letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.
Was Jesus changing the letter of the law, or just explaining the spirit of the law? How much can you think about adultery, dream about adultery, stalk someone on Facebook, plan how to do it, initiate caresses, kiss, lie together naked, and still claim "I have not committed adultery, I'm wholly innocent." Under the spirit of the law, none of that, even if you haven't yet crossed over the technical letter of the law.
An attitude of "How much can I get away with and still claim I'm honoring the law" is itself dishonoring the law's intent of teaching us attitudes consistent with God's attitudes.
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
Jesus singled out the commandments to love God and to love your neighbor as the two greatest. We feel bound by those as well, but he didn't place any similar special emphasis on the Ten.
It has been pointed out to me that Jesus did specifically endorse five of the Ten at Matthew 19:18-19, although not the other five.
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Sabbath was Saturday, and was a day of no work, even women got the day off from cooking; now it's a day to do yard work or house repairs, and in many households the women have to do extra work to prepare a fancier than usual meal because sabbath concept was ditched in favor of the feast day concept - preparing a feast is inconsistent with rest, so rest was eliminated (at least for women).
100+ years ago, the church I serve had a congregation largely made up of the moneyed merchants of the town. At that time they would, I guess, have been very strict about Sabbath-keeping. But they had no compunction in expecting their servants to make beds, help them dress, make up fires, serve at table and prepare Sunday dinner to be ready when they got home (although I guess that normal cleaning and washing of clothes etc. did not happen on that day).
Of course, the servants did have some allegedly "free time" in the evening. How convenient that it coincided with the Evening Service (which the now-sated middle classes did not attend). The servants' absence from worship would, of course, have been noted ...
[ 25. July 2015, 15:38: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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fausto
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# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Jesus went BEYOND the 10 commandments - a lustful look is adultery of the heart, anger is murder etc.
Was that going beyond the law, or was it explaining what the law always meant, from God's viewpoint?
Some people, faced with a rule, love to see how close they can get to the line, argue if they stick a toe over the line they haven't crossed the line yet because the foot itself is still on the right side of the line.
The letter of the law vs the spirit of the law.
Was Jesus changing the letter of the law, or just explaining the spirit of the law? How much can you think about adultery, dream about adultery, stalk someone on Facebook, plan how to do it, initiate caresses, kiss, lie together naked, and still claim "I have not committed adultery, I'm wholly innocent." Under the spirit of the law, none of that, even if you haven't yet crossed over the technical letter of the law.
An attitude of "How much can I get away with and still claim I'm honoring the law" is itself dishonoring the law's intent of teaching us attitudes consistent with God's attitudes.
Yes, I think in those instances he was interpreting and applying the Law, not issuing new commandments.
Adultery and murder are two of the Ten. But as I have already mentioned, Jesus said that the Law would pass away when all things are accomplished, and Christians generally believe that the old Law was fulfilled through his Atonement and superseded by the present New Covenant. My question is still: in theological terms, what is so uniquely different about the Ten (including the five that Jesus does not specifically mention at Matt. 19:18-19) that we should consider them to remain in force when so many others are considered moot?
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
All of the laws were and are for our sakes, to avoid our harming each other or ourselves. The ten commandments stand as they remain as valid in this generation as in previous ones. Others no longer apply, eg eating shellfish in a hot country with no refrigeration is not a good idea.
All fall under the two greatest commandments. If we harm each other or ourselves we cause grief to God too - there is no love shown.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
At the parousia, when all is accomplished, and heaven, earth and us are all made new, we shall no longer need either law or moral guidance because we will no longer be tempted to sin or able to sin. We will no longer want to do things which displease God, damage out neighbour or damage us. His law will be written in our hearts.
Until then, however we understand the 10 Commandments, they are necessary guidance to us to help us towards loving the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and loving our neighbours as ourselves.
It is difficult to see how worshipping another god, making a graven image, taking the name of the Lord in vain and failing to keep Sunday holy could be compatible with the first and greatest commandment.
It is equally difficult to see how failing to honour one's parents, killing, committing adultery, stealing, lying (whether under oath or not) and coveting could be compatible with honouring the second commandment that is like unto it.
So, however theologically one treats the relationship between law and grace, the end result is the same. We still need to obey these commandments. A perfect person wouldn't be able to break them. The rest of us have to keep them.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'll amend that slightly--a perfect person wouldn't WANT to break them. I think the bare ability to break them exists (otherwise why the temptation of Jesus?). Rather like eating liver. I have the ability to do so, but there is nothing could tempt me to do so, and I recoil from it. Bleurghhh.
Part 2 on the Lutheran understanding of Law.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) We see it (that is, the big 10 and all the little ones that function as specific examples thereof) as having three uses:
1) As a curb. Because the Law exists and is known in human cultures, it exercises a certain rough restraint on general human wickedness. People can and do sin, but at a bit lower frequency because the Law exists and is taught in all human cultures, including those who have never heard of the 10 Commandments but have the basic concepts written on their hearts. "Grandma taught me not to do that" restrains some people, some time, and that is a legitimate use of the Law.
2) As a mirror. The Law gives us something to look into and see our true state. Any fool who says to himself, "I live a pretty good life, go me!" can look at the Law (and Jesus' explanation of it, which is nothing new but simply a clarification of what each principle means). The reflection will not be pretty. In my case, for instance, the Law shows me that I am greedy, lazy, prideful, covetous, and self-centered, and that though God is working on these things, I still have a long, long way to go. Ouch. Still, it's better to know the truth than to live in the fool's paradise of "I'm basically a good person."
3) As a guide. This is the trickiest one to explain, but it's the one that is most germane to this discussion. What it means is that though it is NOT binding, it nevertheless gives us a handy summary of what God would like to see in our lives. [At this point at least half of you have gone down a rabbit hole, doubtless due to my crappy explanation!]
Let's try an analogy. Suppose you are in love and want to get your beloved a gift for Christmas. Hopefully you already know him or her well enough to have some ideas, but if you're still stumped, what do you do? Answer: You hit up his/her parents, friends, children, siblings for ideas. They are the ones who can say to you, "He really has a thing for Barry Manilow," or "She has a secret craving for chocolate peanuts."
Now with regard to the Lord, this is a love relationship, and just like any other, it creates a desire to see the Beloved happy--to give gifts, as it were. In the old-fashioned language, we want to please him. How do we do that? Well, we can think of a few things off our own bat, but if you want a pretty definitive picture, see the Law and Jesus' exposition of it. Heck, see the prophets:
quote:
What does the Lord require of you
but to do justly,
and to love mercy,
and to walk humbly with your God?
This might seem like very basic stuff I'm saying. But when you look at human history and all the ideas people have had about what God/the gods want, we tend to get it badly wrong. (not human sacrifice, not endless rote prayers, not pilgrimage on your knees, ....)
So of what value is the Law today? The three things above. And those do not disappear with the coming of Christ. The Law is fulfilled and stands forever--it is not abolished to disappear.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
fausto: Christianity teaches that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) was fulfilled in Jesus, and we are now operating under a New Covenant which has superseded it.
I always chuckle a bit when people start with "Christiany teaches that ..." as if these things were universal. This isn't really what Christianity teaches me.
Perhaps not, and perhaps I haven't expressed it as accurately as possible, but theologically it is the orthodox reason usually given why Christians don't feel obliged to keep all 613 of the Mosaic commandments.
Not really. Many different interpretations on the relationship of the Law and the gospel have been put forward, of which this is but one.
IMHO: Jesus' primary ethical teaching, the sermon on the mount, suggests that rather than thinking of the Mosaic Law as superceded or nullified, we ought think of it as completed. Whereas before in our own power, all we were capable of was mere external obedience, now in the power of the Spirit, we are capable of inner transformation. Which is why before we only had external laws ("don't commit adultery") but in the Sermon Jesus raises the ante and calls us to transformed hearts ("don't lust"). Once the heart is transformed (e.g. you become the sort of person who doesn't look at others as objects to be used) the actions prohibited by the Law come naturally, they are part of who you are, rather than rules you have to follow. This is not possible in our own power, but only in the power of the Spirit.
That's my take on it (following Dallas Willard & Glen Stassen). But our relationship with the Law is a complex on, with many different perspectives within orthodox Christianity.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
NT Wright describes the Law as "practicing in the life for the life we will live in the next".
Another analogy that has been used for the relationship of grace to the Law is a doctor's prescription. The doctor (God) has correctly diagnosed our ailment (sin) and prescribed a cure (the Law: the actions that coincide with or live out righteousness). When the doctor gives us prescription, sometimes is something that seems harsh and extreme. If the situation is life-threatening, it may even require the diseased flesh be cut out surgically or poisoned thru chemotherapy. Those are harsh prescriptions. But the prescription is not a sign of judgment or anger, but rather a sign of the doctor's compassion and love. They are a gift of grace.
I tend to think of the Law as part of the pursuit of holiness. We don't pursue holiness to avoid God's wrath or earn God's love. We pursue holiness because we trust that God loves us and knows what is best for us. If those two things are true, then following God's Laws-- doing things God's way-- only makes sense. If God loves us and wants only the best for us, then living his way must somehow ultimately be in our own best interests. The fact that I don't always live that out is a sign of my lack of trust in one or both of those presuppositions.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Snuffy
Apprentice
# 18404
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Posted
Interesting Topic.
I have always rationalised it (perhaps based on what I have been taught) that the requirement under the Law was to keep the whole Law in order to remain right with God and obtain salvation. The obvious human fail being taken care of by the pre-Calvary Day of Atonement. Post-Calvary [the superior Day of Atonement ;-) ], those who avail themselves of salvation under Grace & Mercy go on to endeavour to keep the Law out of love for their Lord. We still fail, but the Law of Grace & Mercy is greater than the Law of Sin & Death. Add your own hallelujahs, if so disposed, at this point.
If I recall correctly, Calvary did not do away with all of the remainder of the Law, junking those 603 laws. Jesus used His Divine authority during his ministry and to and through His Apostles to either strengthen & tighten some while doing away with some bits of The Law, eg. divorce and food.
Funny thing, I still occasionally have a twinge of guilt about that bacon butty.
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Keeping everyone up to snuff, self included, while breathing in the fumes of failure
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
100+ years ago, the church I serve had a congregation largely made up of the moneyed merchants of the town. At that time they would, I guess, have been very strict about Sabbath-keeping. But they had no compunction in expecting their servants to make beds, help them dress, make up fires, serve at table and prepare Sunday dinner to be ready when they got home (although I guess that normal cleaning and washing of clothes etc. did not happen on that day).
Of course, the servants did have some allegedly "free time" in the evening. How convenient that it coincided with the Evening Service (which the now-sated middle classes did not attend). The servants' absence from worship would, of course, have been noted ...
Out of interest, were the servants expected to be Baptists as well, or could they attend other churches? Or was it rather the case that Baptists preferred to employ other Baptists? If you want to employ a Baptist in particular I suppose you're expecting someone who goes to church. Otherwise there's not much point, is there? It's not like the CofE.
Regarding the 10 Commandments, the mainstream churches I know don't make a fuss of them or refer to them particularly often. I don't remember hearing a sermon or series of sermons based on them. A year or so ago I made myself learn a little song from Youtube to help me remember them in order, but this wasn't something that 'the church' made me do. Maybe the evangelicals make more of an issue out of the 10 Commandments.
Despite the talk of living in a 'Christian country' the British people in general don't seem to identify strongly with the 10 Commandments.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I'm afraid I can't answer that, sorry. It was a Congregational Chapel in those days. My guess is that the servants had to go there, irrespective of their "own" denominational preferences. There was (and is) a Catholic church right next door, so I don't know about any Catholic servants - perhaps they didn't employ them. But, as I said, I don't know.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Among Lutherans (and I thought pretty much all of the church, but what do I know?) we make a distinction between the moral Law and the ceremonial laws.
AFAIUI, actual Jews make a very much less distinction between 'moral' and 'ceremonial' law, in that what we consider 'ceremonial', they consider moral.
Reasonably (and I'm sure there's a midrash on this somewhere), if it's a toss-up between losing your tassels and preventing a murder, saving life comes first - but this is not to say that clothing rules are not about morality.
It's a charge that we've driven coach-and-horses through Jewish law, picking and choosing as we see fit. I'd certainly never discuss which parts of the law are 'ceremonial' with a Jew - they are all instructions from God, with all the weight that that carries.
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Forward the New Republic
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I expect you're right. If you DO come at the Law-as-a-whole without Christ, without Paul, without the developments in the book of Acts, then certainly tassel-wearing is as binding still as not murdering, and both are moral choices precisely because they are commanded by God.
What I'm saying is that for Christians (who live post-Christ,* post-Paul, post-Acts), there is a distinction. And so the ceremonial law is no longer considered binding, based on all those things. But I'd never expect a non-Christian Jew to accept that.
* Oh dear, that didn't come out right.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
However frequently repeated, the notion that C1 Judaism treated all 613 commandments as of equal value and importance, and that they did not or could not distinguish between ethics and observance is an unfair accusation. The famous story about Rabbi Hillel and how to explain the Torah while standing on one leg demonstrates that. It is also not what St Paul said.
[ 26. July 2015, 07:13: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
AIUI, Talmudic Judaism distinguishes between the Noahide Laws (ultimately a reference to Genesis 9, but expanded a bit in the Talmud) - which are the principles of morality given to all nations - and the Mosaic Law, which exists to mark out the Jews as the Chosen People.
It is argued that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 is in effect reaffirming the Noahide Laws (rather than the Torah) as binding on Christians (or at least on Gentile converts), which does raise the question of why we don't elevate them instead of the Ten Commandments.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
AIUI, Talmudic Judaism distinguishes between the Noahide Laws (ultimately a reference to Genesis 9, but expanded a bit in the Talmud) - which are the principles of morality given to all nations - and the Mosaic Law, which exists to mark out the Jews as the Chosen People.
It is argued that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 is in effect reaffirming the Noahide Laws (rather than the Torah) as binding on Christians (or at least on Gentile converts), which does raise the question of why we don't elevate them instead of the Ten Commandments.
Very much agree with this - especially as (according to some Rabbinical interpretations) Noahide Laws have things to say about animal welfare.
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PilgrimVagrant
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# 18442
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Posted
I can't help noticing (present thread and all present exempted), how often these kind of discussions are aimed at reconciling the Bible with the current, secular morality. I do not think this is a dishonest endeavour, more a spurious one.
Let us be sincere about our moralities, and choose the best of them. If we think a 4000-1500 year old set of ethics to be superior to the work of current philosophers, then let us go with the Bible, consistently, and observe all it's laws. But if we think ethics has made progress since then, then let us regard the Bible (respectfully) as the foundation on which this progress was made possible, and go with the current state of ethics as a definite improvement.
Cheers, PV.
[ 26. July 2015, 10:21: Message edited by: PilgrimVagrant ]
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
I can't help noticing (present thread and all present exempted), how often these kind of discussions are aimed at reconciling the Bible with the current, secular morality. I do not think this is a dishonest endeavour, more a spurious one.
Let us be sincere about our moralities, and choose the best of them. If we think a 4000-1500 year old set of ethics to be superior to the work of current philosophers, then let us go with the Bible, consistently, and observe all it's laws. But if we think ethics has made progress since then, then let us regard the Bible (respectfully) as the foundation on which this progress was made possible, and go with the current state of ethics as a definite improvement.
Cheers, PV.
Some good points here. The 10 Commandments are more notable for what is not included. The 10 Commandments hardly seem supernatural in their wisdom. Moreover, as you were saying, would the Bible be a better moral guide if the nasty and useless bits were taken out? For example, sticking with The 10 Commandments; who keeps Saturday as holy day? It was extra-Biblical voices and ideas that changed that.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 10 Commandments hardly seem supernatural in their wisdom. Moreover, as you were saying, would the Bible be a better moral guide if the nasty and useless bits were taken out? For example, sticking with The 10 Commandments; who keeps Saturday as holy day? It was extra-Biblical voices and ideas that changed that.
Not sure what you mean when you say that the 10 Commandments ''hardly seem supernatural in their wisdom'. Four of them do refer to God specifically.
Also, remember that there are indeed Christians who keep Saturday as their Sabbath. The 7th Day Adventists are the obvious group. They are growing significantly in numbers around the world, including the USA, and in some cases they've become the largest denomination.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I think our problem with the Sabbath is not that we worship on the wrong day, but that we don't have a day of rest. The Sabbath was an entire 24 hour day of rest from the striving and struggle of life, not a brief 60 min reprieve in between shopping, consuming, errands, soccer games, etc.
The Sabbath is a good microcosm of the more general question of the OP. Our widespread neglect of the Sabbath reflects our ambivalence toward "the Law" in general that we've been discussing. It's also obviously related to Jesus' teaching about the Sabbath and the stories of his working on the Sabbath.
But it's instructive IMHO to look at exactly what Jesus said and did on the Sabbath. He didn't plow fields or build tables on the Sabbath-- he healed. And when he explained why he wasn't keeping the Sabbath law, he didn't say any of the things that have been suggested here as reasons to invalidate the 10 commandments. He didn't say "the law is already complete" or "that was the old covenant." He didn't say "don't worry about Sabbath." Rather, he said, "man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man." iow, the Sabbath (and, by extension, the rest of the Law) was and IS not some oppressive set of rules designed to keep us in line or make us "good enough" to deserve God's love. Rather, the Sabbath-- like the rest of the Law-- was a gift of grace, something given not to boost God's ego but rather something given for US-- for our benefit. The Sabbath is given because we need to rest. We are healthier, happier, have better relationships, are more productive the other 6 days of the week, when we take the time for a long and thorough rest. It is restorative-- which is why Jesus healing on the Sabbath is not a violation of the underlying spirit of the law but rather entirely consistent with the purpose and intent.
This is the shift I think Jesus calls us to. Not to disregarding the Law or thinking we can do whatever we like and it's all "washed in the blood." But rather to stop thinking of the law as rigid, oppressive rules and think of it as a gift. Something for our benefit. Again, if we are correct that God is good, that God loves us, and that God wants only the best for us, then sin/ law-breaking is an irrational choice. Doing things God's way can ultimately only be in our own best interest.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Christianity is the Sabbath.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Jesus went BEYOND the 10 commandments - a lustful look is adultery of the heart, anger is murder etc.
Was that going beyond the law, or was it explaining what the law always meant, from God's viewpoint?
Or was he 'fulfilling' it - in the sense of filling it out, deepening its meaning?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The 10 Commandments hardly seem supernatural in their wisdom. Moreover, as you were saying, would the Bible be a better moral guide if the nasty and useless bits were taken out? For example, sticking with The 10 Commandments; who keeps Saturday as holy day? It was extra-Biblical voices and ideas that changed that.
Not sure what you mean when you say that the 10 Commandments ''hardly seem supernatural in their wisdom'. Four of them do refer to God specifically.
Also, remember that there are indeed Christians who keep Saturday as their Sabbath. The 7th Day Adventists are the obvious group. They are growing significantly in numbers around the world, including the USA, and in some cases they've become the largest denomination.
I did not know that about SDA. Thanks.
As for the supernatural, there is nothing there that could only be known by a deity, or reflects some deep understanding of humanity not already known in the world. Imagine if God had only 10 things to say to the world—and unlike all the other stuff he'd said where he merely spoke through clouds and visions, this time he had them engraved on stones. Well, read the 10C's and see for yourself. Be kind to your parents because they might give you something, don't make images of me (oops!), keep Saturday holy (oops!), remember that I am the best god of all the other gods (ah, so there are other gods.), don't take my name in vain (whatever that means), don't kill (finally, here is a useful piece of moral guidance—hardly a revelation though), note well that women should be treat like chattel. In moral terms, the 10 Commandments are utterly ignorable.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
As for the supernatural, there is nothing there that could only be known by a deity, or reflects some deep understanding of humanity not already known in the world. Imagine if God had only 10 things to say to the world—and unlike all the other stuff he'd said where he merely spoke through clouds and visions, this time he had them engraved on stones. Well, read the 10C's and see for yourself. Be kind to your parents because they might give you something, don't make images of me (oops!), keep Saturday holy (oops!), remember that I am the best god of all the other gods (ah, so there are other gods.), don't take my name in vain (whatever that means), don't kill (finally, here is a useful piece of moral guidance—hardly a revelation though), note well that women should be treat like chattel. In moral terms, the 10 Commandments are utterly ignorable.
K.
Hmmm.
Not all 'gods' of the ancient world or the animist present have demanded exclusivity or even worship.
Not all religions have specific weekly holy days that have to be treated as something special.
Not all religions have prohibited killing; some of them demanded routine human sacrifice. Some cultures allowed the elders to be put to death in order to minimise the drain on resources.
And so on....
The point is that despite our ongoing failings as human beings, the moral world that developed out of the Judeo-Christian landscape is quite a particular world, even if Christians no longer pay regular and special attention to the 10 Commandments, and even if atheists jettison the supernatural entirely. The idea that the 10 Commandments and the religions that grew up around them left no moral legacy in the long run is a very curious one. I doubt that the scholars would agree with you.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
As for the supernatural, there is nothing there that could only be known by a deity, or reflects some deep understanding of humanity not already known in the world. Imagine if God had only 10 things to say to the world—and unlike all the other stuff he'd said where he merely spoke through clouds and visions, this time he had them engraved on stones. Well, read the 10C's and see for yourself. Be kind to your parents because they might give you something, don't make images of me (oops!), keep Saturday holy (oops!), remember that I am the best god of all the other gods (ah, so there are other gods.), don't take my name in vain (whatever that means), don't kill (finally, here is a useful piece of moral guidance—hardly a revelation though), note well that women should be treat like chattel. In moral terms, the 10 Commandments are utterly ignorable.
K.
Really? Then why have so many people of other faiths and other cultures adopted virtually the identical set of principles?
The 10 commandments really are just a parsing of the shema that Jesus later holds up as the guide to ethical living: the first four are about loving God, the last 6 about loving people.
As noted above, it's not about rule-keeping or being good enough, they are about recognizing that this is the best possible life for each of us. We are healthier, happier, have better relationships when we take time to rest/restore each week, when we remember who created us and why, when we show love by avoiding things like lying, stealing and (of course) murder. This is the best possible life for us-- a showing us this is an expression of God's great love for us.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Really? Then why have so many people of other faiths and other cultures adopted virtually the identical set of principles?
Because moral law is written on our hearts, and does not need Christian faith to determine it, only endorse it? And what implication would this finding have for Christian ideas about 'salvation'?
Best, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Really? Then why have so many people of other faiths and other cultures adopted virtually the identical set of principles?
Because moral law is written on our hearts, and does not need Christian faith to determine it, only endorse it?
Exactly. Which doesn't make the 10 commandments irrelevant, just universal.
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Really? Then why have so many people of other faiths and other cultures adopted virtually the identical set of principles?
And what implication would this finding have for Christian ideas about 'salvation'?
Since Christians don't find their salvation in the keeping of the Law, not a whole lot.
Again, the point of keeping the Law is not to make ourselves "good enough" for God or avoid some divine punishment. The point of keeping the Law is that we come to trust in God enough to recognize that doing life his way-- i.e. loving God and others-- is the best possible life for us. The fact that others who don't happen to be part of our tribe also often come to recognize that only makes life living in a diverse community that much better.
[ 26. July 2015, 21:48: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: The point of keeping the Law is that we come to trust in God enough to recognize that doing life his way-- i.e. loving God and others-- is the best possible life for us.
I guess the point of keeping some laws (eg. Thou shalt not kill) is also that other people won't be dead.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: The point of keeping the Law is that we come to trust in God enough to recognize that doing life his way-- i.e. loving God and others-- is the best possible life for us.
I guess the point of keeping some laws (eg. Thou shalt not kill) is also that other people won't be dead.
Well, not killing others would be one way (albeit a rather minimal one) of loving them. And it is the not-too-arguably the best way for us to live. Life tends to get rather nasty once you get involved in murderous plots...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, the point of keeping the Law is not to make ourselves "good enough" for God or avoid some divine punishment. The point of keeping the Law is that we come to trust in God enough to recognize that doing life his way-- i.e. loving God and others-- is the best possible life for us. The fact that others who don't happen to be part of our tribe also often come to recognize that only makes life living in a diverse community that much better.
To pickup your point about sabbath - I used to work in human resources, the field has done lots of studies -- if you will take a day off from work to do things you enjoy, like sports or arts or family time, your productivity for the week is higher than if you work all 7 days even though you work more hours the weeks you skip sabbath.
So says science. Catching up with God.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
I can't help noticing (present thread and all present exempted), how often these kind of discussions are aimed at reconciling the Bible with the current, secular morality. I do not think this is a dishonest endeavour, more a spurious one.
Let us be sincere about our moralities, and choose the best of them. If we think a 4000-1500 year old set of ethics to be superior to the work of current philosophers, then let us go with the Bible, consistently, and observe all it's laws. But if we think ethics has made progress since then, then let us regard the Bible (respectfully) as the foundation on which this progress was made possible, and go with the current state of ethics as a definite improvement.
Cheers, PV.
The problem here is that you are dismissing the mainstream historic Christian position as somehow illegitimate--either keep the Law in the OT form only, or throw it completely out the window and go with something modern. But it is within the Bible itself that we get the Christian shift in the view of the Law. That's where we're getting Jesus' expositions, Paul's commentaries, the immediate change to Sunday as a day of worship (book of Acts, NOT "extra-biblical voices"), the Jerusalem council decision that not every part of the Law is binding on Gentile converts to Christianity.
I'm not at all willing to accept that the OT alone is valid and the NT has nothing to say on the subject of how we observe the Law. If I thought that were the case, I'd be off to convert to Judaism straight.
I also sense a touch of chronological snobbery (forgive me) in your post. The fact that something is old does not mean it is automatically of less value or less true than something new. The age of ideas is irrelevant to their truth value.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is certain that we do not keep all the OT commandments. (Look in your mirror, gentlemen. Sidelocks? No? What about the slavery thing?) Given that we do not, we have to decide what commandments are in and which are out. (Have a look at the garment you are wearing, this exact instant. Look at the fiber content label. Is it 100% anything? No?) All our contention revolves around where to draw that line.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
Jesus singled out the commandments to love God and to love your neighbor as the two greatest. We feel bound by those as well, but he didn't place any similar special emphasis on the Ten.
It seems to me that the 10 are all about loving God and loving neighbor. They are about how to live in community, and how to be a community that is in in relationship with God.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Do Jews place much emphasis on the Ten Commandments relative to the rest of the Torah? I have a feeling they don't but am open to correction.
They do, as I understand it. The "Ten Words" (Decalogue) are considered foundational to the remainder of the law. In Jesus's time, they would have been recited in the Temple daily, before the recitation of the Shama Yisrael. The two tablets are called in Hebrew Luchot HaBrit—"the tablets of the covenant." They were kept in the ark of the covenant.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: Life tends to get rather nasty once you get involved in murderous plots...
It isn't about me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, the point of keeping the Law is not to make ourselves "good enough" for God or avoid some divine punishment. The point of keeping the Law is that we come to trust in God enough to recognize that doing life his way-- i.e. loving God and others-- is the best possible life for us. The fact that others who don't happen to be part of our tribe also often come to recognize that only makes life living in a diverse community that much better.
To pickup your point about sabbath - I used to work in human resources, the field has done lots of studies -- if you will take a day off from work to do things you enjoy, like sports or arts or family time, your productivity for the week is higher than if you work all 7 days even though you work more hours the weeks you skip sabbath.
So says science. Catching up with God.
When I was a strict Sabbatarian I never felt so knackered, particularly on a Saturday. With the legalistically imposed stress of it all.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
When I was a strict Sabbatarian I never felt so knackered, particularly on a Saturday. With the legalistically imposed stress of it all.
I suspect you were treating it as a law rather than a blessing, as though Martin60 were made for the Sabbath rather than the Sabbath made for Martin60.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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