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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why do so many people consider Nelson Mandela to have been saintly?
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No, you don't get to play games like this. South Africa maintained a terrible civil war for no cause at all, just the same stupid "communism is evil and everything is valid against it" that you are spouting here.
If you want to make your stupid little arguments here, I don't care about that. But now you are using the suffering of millions of people just to be smug about it. You said that what South Africa did in Angola was a good thing. Take it back.
It was the marxists who were maintaining a terrible civil war in Angola. Millions of people suffered. The foreign leader who bears the greatest degree of responsibility for their suffering was Fidel Castro.
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Bibliophile quote:
My point is that communism itself is intrinsically evil. The Devil rebelled against God, communism glorifies rebellion against non-communist authorities. The celebration of such rebellion is central to communist ideology. The glorification of violence and crime in the rebellion against established authority, the strident atheism and hostility to God. Marxism is satanic in origin and nature. To support marxism is to support evil.
My point is that the United States itself is intrinsically evil. The Devil rebelled against God, the United States still glorifies its rebellion against the legitimate British authorities. The celebration of such rebellion is central to United States' ideology. The glorification of violence and crime in the rebellion against established authority, George III, the Lord's anointed, was in defiance of the will of God. U.S. Republicanism is, therefore, satanic in origin and nature, as was the War of Independence. To support such a state and its founding philosophy is to support evil.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Bibliophile quote:
My point is that communism itself is intrinsically evil. The Devil rebelled against God, communism glorifies rebellion against non-communist authorities. The celebration of such rebellion is central to communist ideology. The glorification of violence and crime in the rebellion against established authority, the strident atheism and hostility to God. Marxism is satanic in origin and nature. To support marxism is to support evil.
My point is that the United States itself is intrinsically evil. The Devil rebelled against God, the United States still glorifies its rebellion against the legitimate British authorities. The celebration of such rebellion is central to United States' ideology. The glorification of violence and crime in the rebellion against established authority, George III, the Lord's anointed, was in defiance of the will of God. U.S. Republicanism is, therefore, satanic in origin and nature, as was the War of Independence. To support such a state and its founding philosophy is to support evil.
You mean it was Marxist seventy-plus years before Marx and Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto?. Is there any other kind of evil on this earth?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Bibliophile quote:
My point is that communism itself is intrinsically evil. The Devil rebelled against God, communism glorifies rebellion against non-communist authorities. The celebration of such rebellion is central to communist ideology. The glorification of violence and crime in the rebellion against established authority, the strident atheism and hostility to God. Marxism is satanic in origin and nature. To support marxism is to support evil.
My point is that the United States itself is intrinsically evil. The Devil rebelled against God, the United States still glorifies its rebellion against the legitimate British authorities. The celebration of such rebellion is central to United States' ideology. The glorification of violence and crime in the rebellion against established authority, George III, the Lord's anointed, was in defiance of the will of God. U.S. Republicanism is, therefore, satanic in origin and nature, as was the War of Independence. To support such a state and its founding philosophy is to support evil.
The United States is a country not an ideology. Yes the rebellion against George III, who was not only a lawful but indeed also a good King, was thoroughly wicked. Yes the celebration of this rebellion is also wicked. However that does not make the country as a whole wicked.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Another evil ideology must surely be democracy. An ideology that allows, indeed encourages, people to rebel against the legitimate government by voting for another party.
And, if you're looking for wicked documents founding evil political ideologies, don't start with Das Kapital or The Communist Manifesto. Start with Magna Carta, those clauses restricting the powers of Gods appointed king following the evil actions of rebellious barons.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Sioni Sais quote:
You mean it was Marxist seventy-plus years before Marx and Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto?. Is there any other kind of evil on this earth?”
If this remark was was addressed to me, I find it difficult to respond because I’m not sure what point you are making.
Bibliophile quote:
“The United States is a country not an ideology. Yes the rebellion against George III...., was thoroughly wicked. However that does not make the country as a whole wicked.”
But, surely, no country is an "ideology"? Ideologies are intellectual constructs, systems of belief, that might in this context inform the actions of politicians. Need I remind you that the founders of the United States had an ideology which they considered justified their rebellion against Britain:
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
It seems to me that the painful process of decolonisation in Southern Africa was more in conformity with these sort of principles than those of Marxism, which envisages an international proletarian revolution against the international bourgeoisie; and while the Communists were part of the ANC alliance, that body included a greater number of God-fearing Christians. Post-Apartheid ANC-led SA has had no difficult in continuing to be part of a global capitalist economic order because that is where its values lie.
Incidentally, my original intention, was not to suggest that the United States was particularly wicked, but to satirise the framework of Bibliophile, which seemed to me of little explanatory value. As for Nelson Mandela, his detractors have a big job on their hands, for despite "warts and all" he remains in the opinion of most of us truly exceptional.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Sioni Sais quote:
You mean it was Marxist seventy-plus years before Marx and Engels wrote The Communist Manifesto?. Is there any other kind of evil on this earth?”
If this remark was was addressed to me, I find it difficult to respond because I’m not sure what point you are making.
Kwesi,
I was having a cheap dig at Bibliophile who appears to use Marxism as an explanation for all the evil in the world. You mentioned that the USA was founded in a revolution and was evil, so I asked how else could that have come about other than through Marxism.
No worries, if I have been misunderstood, it's my mistake.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The United States is a country not an ideology.
I think we is having our chain yanked.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've come across Bibliophile-ish attitudes with many on the US Right. On another forum I had a discussion with a very right wing Republican from the US who was equally as dismissive of Mandela as Bibliophile has been here.
When I suggested that Mandela had changed and 'developed' over the years this wasn't good enough - 'Can a leopard change his spots?'
This chap happened to be Orthodox - a convert from a very full-on form of health-wealth charismatic evangelical Protestantism ... and he also had a big thing about Putin. Putin is wonderful. Putin is Orthodox. You know how it goes ...
When I suggested to him that Putin may not have changed his spots from his previous KGB involvement, he fell silent ...
I could get all Pond-War and be accused of 'racism' against certain types of US fundamentalist - but I'm not suggesting that this is by any means a peculiarly US trait ie. the inability to grasp nuance and to frame everything in black and white, dualistic terms.
No, it's not a particularly American thing - it's a particularly fundamentalist thing.
Bibliophile strikes me as something of a fundamentalist literalist. Consequently, communism or even socialism - of whatever form is the greatest form of evil there could possibly be ... therefore anyone tainted with even the merest tinge of it is somehow suspect.
Mandela, because of his initial commitment to Marxist-Leninist ideology must therefore ever be tainted by that - irrespective by how far he moved from that position or how much he later modified it.
This line of argument leads into choppy waters, as it can appear as if the person adopting this viewpoint is justifying any other form of evil - apartheid, extreme right-wing regimes such as those of Portugal in the 1970s, or Pinochet in Chile, or the Contras in Nicaragua - etc etc - just so long as they aren't Marxist-Leninist ...
It's a form of dualism.
As it happens, I agree that Marxist-Leninism is fundamentally flawed and intrinsically leads to corruption and all manner of evils.
I don't believe that to be the case of more moderate forms of socialism.
YMMV.
Bibliophile is driven by his inflexibly literalist 'take' on things to justify the unjustifiable and to adopt strange bedfellows.
The same thing happens in reverse with extreme lefties or extreme anything-else-ies.
The flaw lies in his fundamentalism.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Bibliophile strikes me as something of a fundamentalist literalist.
He may well strike you as a fundamentalist literalist, but unless he explicitly self-identifies as such, it strikes me that there is a distinct possibility that saying so might be perceived as a personal attack.
It would be safer to refer to opinions and arguments as fundamentalist or literalist, rather than people who are engaging on this thread. There is a Hell thread open for unavoidably personal comments, should anyone feel the need to make them.
Eliab
Purgatory host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - fair enough.
I have posted in the Hell thread and will endeavour to keep any future Purgatory posts less personal in tone.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If being rebellious is a sure sign of Satanic influence then the USA is intrinsically Satanic as it owes its very existence as a nation to rebellion
If communism is intrinsically Satanic by this measure then so is US capitalism.
That must include myself as a dissenter and Baptist then. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Oppressive regimes are crap whatever ideology they belong too.
Amen.
I find these communism/apartheid comparisons wearysome - two (or three or four) wrongs don't make a right.
Mandela did many amazing things, let's give him credit for them. He made mistakes too, don't we all? We are not discussing Jesus here.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Absolutely, Boogie and Polly.
It probably makes Bibliophile ev and rebellious too as a Protestant Christian. Me too for that matter - or anyone who isn't RC or Orthodox and they'll each accuse the other of rebellion and dissent.
I would be prepared to accept Bibliophile's basic premise that Marxist-Leninist ideology is essentially irredeemable without a 'metanoia' towards a more excellent way. What I find puzzling is Bibliophile's Senator McCarthy thing about 'are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?' - as though any dint or taint from involvement with communist ir socialist ideology marrs or scars someone for the rest of their lives irrespective of what else they do - whether good, bad or indifferent.
It looks like Communism is the Unforgivable Sin.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It probably makes Bibliophile ev and rebellious too as a Protestant Christian.
In your very next post after accepting a host warning, you're making speculative personal attacks again. You can hardly say you haven't been warned.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
[ADMIN]
No further warnings about either Commandment 3 or Commandment 6 will be issued, Gamaliel. Possibly ever.
Are we clear?
[/ADMIN]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok, my bad.
I can see how I over-stepped the mark.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I could have made the point I was making without it becoming personal - or even made a different one that wouldn't have overstepped the line. I apologise for that and for any offence to Bibliophile and inconvenience I've caused Hosts and Admins.
So, yes, the situation is clear, Rook and I fully respect the decision.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
The United States is a country not an ideology.
But the American Revolution was intensely ideological. As Kwesi pointed out, the revolutionary leaders issued an intensely ideological manifesto, ideological pamphlets were circulated to motivate the masses, and at the end the successful revolutionaries did not just re-create the British government but built something new based on their ideology.
More to the point, in what sense can you argue that a country is not an ideology when it comes to notions like government by the consent of the governed, but erase that distinction when it comes to communist countries?
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Yes the rebellion against George III, who was not only a lawful but indeed also a good King, was thoroughly wicked. Yes the celebration of this rebellion is also wicked. However that does not make the country as a whole wicked.
I'm not sure what you mean by "thoroughly" here. It would seem to be expansive enough to cover "the country as a whole", but you indicate otherwise.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675
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Posted
There is an alternative view to be held on Mandela and the ANC.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9PDX3-Qkx6Y
Let's not forget the ANC was an organisation who's favoured terror tactic was putting car tyres on people and setting them on fire...
And let's not forget, not all blacks were ANC supporters and those who weren't were terrorised by the ANC.
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Have you read any of this thread? Where does anyone say anything which suggested he was a perfect person? Nobody has ever argued to my knowledge that the ANC didn't do some terrible things.
Wheeling out biased, fundamentalist Christian sources like this and this do nothing to add to your case.
For one thing, a white protestant preacher who was once in the South African Defence Force may not, in fact, be a particularly reliable source for commenting on Black South Africans lived experiences during the freedom campaign.
[ 29. August 2015, 08:56: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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