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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: God does not go where he is not wanted
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
There is of course the interesting encounter between the risen Jesus and the disciples on the Emmaeus road, which I suppose may reveal something about the Divine intentions.
quote:
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.
In this particular incident, God the Son remained as he was asked to do, but disappeared when He had accomplished a specific purpose.
Of course all those in this thread who have pointed to the absurdity of limiting God are correct. "God cannot be grasped; if he could he would not be God."[Evagrius of Pontus, from memory]. So I'm not suggesting that Emmaeus provides a general rule. But it may give us an inkling. There is some value to God in our often confused requests to Him that He remains in communion with us. Even if it is only a revealing of our variable ability to be aware of His presence. We are children, learning.
[ 20. August 2015, 06:34: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for? Robert Browning
We can talk and relate to God. One way. He talks and relates back by OUR feeling and thinking. We can do it in parallel play in worship. We can do it person to person, with the strange mixture of positive and negative synergies of that: when that's good, it's very, very good. And when it's mediocre, frustrating, worse ... when there is no 'meeting of minds', no hug ... we still have our inner reach to God.
Is that 'of the Spirit'? What else could be?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
"Only the echoes of my mind"? (Harry Nilsson)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Yes but SusanDoris - why does everything have to be useful?
Ah, yes, thank you - I can see that 'useful' was not a good choice of words! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Hmmmm, perhaps I should have said something about using the liberated space for more rational thinking about God; or, for thinking beautiful thoughts; or, storage space for tap dancing choreography ....?!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye Barnabas62. What else is there? In my mind? In me? A badly told story of sense data and compressed stories: emotions. Part of the sense data is awareness of the Jesus story, which only recently for me trumps all other God stories. And my invoking God as my counsellor, therapist, friend a letter write away, who can't write back.
I have never experienced magic or transpersonal psychology from another entity. I never will as an obligate aerobe.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Hmmmm, perhaps I should have said something about using the liberated space for more rational thinking about God; or, for thinking beautiful thoughts; or, storage space for tap dancing choreography ....?!
Do we have such limited space, that we must conserve it so? Is thinking about revealed theology in a zero-sum game with thinking about tap dancing choreography? Can I not do both? Will my mind fill up like a hard drive, and not hold any more?
To go back to Isaac Newton, he wrote reams and reams about his wacky personal mysticism, and alchemy, and many other woo-woo subjects, but also formulated the foundational laws of the modern science of motion, and co-invented the calculus, among many other things that any non-axe-grinding atheist would applaud enthusiastically. Somehow, he was able to do both.
I should think that the rest of us, in our much much smaller way, should be able to do both also. Unless you can give me a convincing reason why not?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Hmmmm, perhaps I should have said something about using the liberated space for more rational thinking about God; or, for thinking beautiful thoughts; or, storage space for tap dancing choreography ....?!
Do we have such limited space, that we must conserve it so? Is thinking about revealed theology in a zero-sum game with thinking about tap dancing choreography? Can I not do both? Will my mind fill up like a hard drive, and not hold any more?
What is 'revealed theology'? quote:
To go back to Isaac Newton, he wrote reams and reams about his wacky personal mysticism, and alchemy, and many other woo-woo subjects, but also formulated the foundational laws of the modern science of motion, and co-invented the calculus, among many other things that any non-axe-grinding atheist would applaud enthusiastically. Somehow, he was able to do both.
If he had been an atheist, whether secretly or openly, do you think he would have been unable to work out the practical, mathematical and scientific work he did? What actual difference do you think his mystic-type ideas made? I might suggest they were more of a hindrance than a help! quote:
I should think that the rest of us, in our much much smaller way, should be able to do both also. Unless you can give me a convincing reason why not?
My personal reason is easy - no God/god/s, but no, I doubt I could convince you.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thought of you after the shower, B62. I could schlepp from Emmaus to Jerusalem and back every day for the rest of my life and Jesus would neither come nor go except in my thinking, regardless of His omnipresence, of the fact that, as the Muslims say, God is as close as our carotids.
I have the stories. I invoke Him present. I invoke - make up - a dialogue. I tell another story. And the more I do, acknowledging the mystery, the more helpful I find it. The more my God-shaped hole is cleared of unhelpful nonsense. Of self-condemnation, shame, fear, delusion, superstition, magical thinking, what-if: Bronze and Iron Age and Modern thinking.
I would not be able to do this but for God going where He was needed 2000 years ago in person and continuing to go after, as before, but with more effect, in the Spirit poured out on all flesh.
[ 21. August 2015, 07:19: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
If he had been an atheist, whether secretly or openly, do you think he would have been unable to work out the practical, mathematical and scientific work he did?
Where did I suggest that? Sorry, you are changing the subject. You spoke as if we had a limited amount of space for thinking, and that freeing up space by not thinking about God would make other things possible. I gave an example of someone who thought about God a lot, and it didn't prevent him from doing science and math. And you turn this into me saying he couldn't have done it if he were an atheist? Excuse me? It begins to look like you are grinding an axe rather than engaging in honest discussion. I hope this is not the case.
quote:
What actual difference do you think his mystic-type ideas made?
I'm not saying there's a difference. I'm saying they didn't prevent him from the science/math.
quote:
I might suggest they were more of a hindrance than a help!
Of course you might. And like so many other things you claim of the same sort, you would have no evidence or argument for it except your own feelings.
quote:
quote:
I should think that the rest of us, in our much much smaller way, should be able to do both also. Unless you can give me a convincing reason why not?
My personal reason is easy - no God/god/s, but no, I doubt I could convince you.
Nice way to make it personal. Not, "I cannot give you a good reason," but "I cannot convince you." Make it my fault.
[ 21. August 2015, 10:39: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
You can of course argue the reverse - that so far from Newton having his mind clouded by mystical ideas, and he would have done even better science without them, that he was of the kind of personality who looks into many areas of human experience and knowledge. Call it a polymath if you like, but I am sure that some people are like this, and that if you constrict one area of their interests, you do them an injury, psychologically speaking.
Another example is Goethe, who is well known as a poet, painter, scientist, mystic, and also a minister of state. You could argue that his romanticism and mysticism were a hindrance to other stuff, but I would strongly dispute that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah, in their cases more was definitely more.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Whilst not myself being a scientist I always felt, having fallen for religion/faith/spiritualism,(call it what you will), that the two concepts are not diametrically opposed.
If we get into the *thou shalt not's*, and God did or doesn't like that etc. ect. then your average scientist isn't likely going to grant the matter brain time.
Yet when you start dealing in the ultimate wonder of it all, and see someone like Stephen H struggling to fathom the origin of... well... Everything? Then you really start to see science and religion converging. For one to shut it's mind to the other will only ever produce limiting.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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