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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Low-key fictional Christians
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Waugh's 'Brideshead Revisited' portrays an astonishing range of Christians (mostly RC). Almost all of them come off pretty badly IME. The establishment (if you will) are portrayed rather brutally and elicit little sympathy. At the end, only Charles (the outsider looking in), Sebastian (the insider trying to get out) and Cordelia (the clear-sighted innocent) remain.
It has been said that Waugh's conversion interfered with his fiction-writing. I think BR proves that -- if one could cut the preachy bits it would be a better book. At least, IMO
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
It seems to me that Roman Catholics in books written by people of that persuasion (especially converts such as Waugh, Chesterton and Greene, or Piers Paul Read, the son of a convert) are more likely to come across as "worthy" than the rather flawed Anglicans portrayed by CofE writers like Barbara Pym, Catherine Fox and PD James.
Chesterton writes worthy Catholics, although I think that's the nature of the genre (Father Brown has to have some reason for getting involved and attending to a parishioner is an easy one).
Waugh and Greene a little less so; I gather Brighton Rock has a very unworthy Catholic indeed.
Muriel Spark, also a convert, often includes Roman Catholics who are less than worthy. (The Abbess of Crewe being an obvious example.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
It has been said that Waugh's conversion interfered with his fiction-writing. I think BR proves that -- if one could cut the preachy bits it would be a better book. At least, IMO
Looking at Waugh's career, I see Handful of Dust and Scoop are both post-conversion. And the Sword of Honour trilogy is I think of comparable standard. It's just that in Brideshead Revisited he's low on inspiration and puts in his thoughts on religion undigested.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Here's a good one: A Clergyman's Daughter by George Orwell. It's an early work, and semi-autobiographical -- you can feel the thing come to life when the protagonist goes hop-picking in Kent. Dorothy, the daughter of the title, is indeed a Christian at the beginning of the work. Her faith serves mainly as a plot complication, to keep her miserable and subservient and to supply a reason for her fear of sex, which essentially kicks off the plot by supplying a not-very-convincing mechanism for her amnesia. At the end, after appalling adventures through which she somehow manages to retain her virtue, she is right back where she began again, only sans faith.
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I understand that there's a lot of Christianity (and sometimes other religions) in the crime/detective genre, either critical or broadly affirmative. Crime fiction is inherently about sin and probable punishment, with an emphasis on confessing and repenting.
OTOH, organised religious beliefs can themselves be seen as transgressive and contrary to natural order. Fictional detectives, of course, are tasked with restoring order to the world, of following apparently irrational hunches, of seeing secret signs and uncovering hidden knowledge.
All this being the case, it's unsurprising that these novels make use of religious themes and characters, though not always in the most orthodox sense.
I think it's also the case that detective novels, especially the Golden Age type, tend to have large casts of characters whose actions are ultimately driven by the author's need to set up a puzzle. To hide their artificial nature the author needs to do a lot of characterisation - and one way to do that is to bolt on some religious feelings.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
Jane Langton's detective characters Homer and Mary Kelly are certainly good low-key Christians, and the stories are infused with a spiritual atmosphere.
D.M. Greenwood's Theodora Braithwaite is an Anglican deacon and many clergy and church support staff appear in her mysteries.
In Barbara Hambly's excellent historical mysteries (the "Free Man of Color" series--she has another series that I've not read), the main character, Ben January, is a Roman Catholic who's particularly devoted to the Virgin Mary.
I stay away from self-consciously "Christian" novels, as the writing is usually execrable ("the pits" as John McEnroe would say) and the plotting simple-minded.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
quote:
I stay away from self-consciously "Christian" novels, as the writing is usually execrable ("the pits" as John McEnroe would say) and the plotting simple-minded.
Please could you be more specific? For example, I think that Catherine Fox, wife of the Dean of Liverpool, writes well.
(Code fix)
[ 16. October 2015, 07:54: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Susan Hill is a good low key Anglican writer. I've never read any Susan Howatch, though my late sister liked her. Fay Weldon is also Anglican, and features in that worthy collection, "Why I am still an Anglican".
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Anglicano, the little " " icon at the top of a Shipmate's post will obligingly paste it into a new post with ascription and quotation formatting. You can edit it down to the relevant section, and then add your own comment.
It helps clarify the conversation.
Firenze
Heaven Host
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Rebus is portrayed as a non-churchgoing Calvinist. I was irritated that in one television version he was a Roman Catholic. I complained but received no reply.
Rebus has a close friend and adviser in the earlier books who is a Catholic Priest. He does explore (as much as Rankin is bothered to, that is) his issues of faith in a Catholic context in the stories so its not such a great leap in the TV adaptions - although as you rightly say its not where he originally comes from in 'Knots and Crosses'
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
To clarify, there is an entire genre 'Christian fiction' which may overlap with novels about Christianity or which have Christian characters in them. They are however not equivalent.
Christian fiction is specifically marketed to people who don't want to encounter a long list of things in their leisure reading: profanity, overt sex, violence, etc. (But, you say, then what's the point of reading novels at all? It is certainly a bubble, and some people do not want to be challenged.) One of many Christian Fiction groups. There are entire publishing houses, entire bookstores, devoted to meeting the needs of this market niche.
Interestingly, some proponents of Christian fiction have problems with works that we would ordinarily say are blatantly Christian. They don't like the Narnia books, for instance. Or The Lord of the Rings.
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Brenda wrote:
quote:
Interestingly, some proponents of Christian fiction have problems with works that we would ordinarily say are blatantly Christian. They don't like the Narnia books, for instance. Or The Lord of the Rings. [/QB]
I've often wondered how the more high-brow Christian cultural conservatives, who for example lament that students don't spend enough time reading Shakespeare, interact with their more plebian co-ideologues, who pull their kids out of public-school so as to protect them from encountering stories that contain magic.
I once read a highbrow try to square the circle on that, by saying that Christians need only object to things that portray magic in a positive light(eg. Dungeons And Dragons). But that still leaves a lot of classical mythology and Shakespeare(eg. A Midsummer Nights Dream) on the Do Not Read list.
[ 16. October 2015, 17:43: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I can't be expected to square this circle either. I'm a member of SFWA!
I hold with JRRT, who said that it all came around to the same thing in the end. God is Lord of angels and men -- and elves. He made us, and therefore all we make. We are merely sub-creators, playing in His sandbox.
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can't be expected to square this circle either. I'm a member of SFWA!
For the record, I don't think you are obligated to square the circle, and I doubt the highbrow cultural conservatives feel obligated either. I suspect the alliance between the "More Shakespeare!!" crowd and the "OMG, wizards!! Run!!" crowd is one of cynical convenience, arising out of a shared antipathy to modern education.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
In detective mode, Harry Kemelman's Rabbi books include a catholic policeman who has discussions about faith with the Rabbi.
And there's James Runcie's Sidney Chambers, but he's a vicar, so probably doesn't count.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
To clarify, there is an entire genre 'Christian fiction' which may overlap with novels about Christianity or which have Christian characters in them. They are however not equivalent.
............
Interestingly, some proponents of Christian fiction have problems with works that we would ordinarily say are blatantly Christian. They don't like the Narnia books, for instance. Or The Lord of the Rings.
Or the fantasy worlds of Madeleine L'Engle.e.g. Many waters She came in for a lot of flack from the Bible Belt.
magic, you know....
[ 17. October 2015, 08:17: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There is an entire genre 'Christian fiction' which may overlap with novels about Christianity or which have Christian characters in them. They are however not equivalent.
Christian fiction is specifically marketed to people who don't want to encounter a long list of things in their leisure reading: profanity, overt sex, violence, etc. (But, you say, then what's the point of reading novels at all? It is certainly a bubble, and some people do not want to be challenged.) One of many Christian Fiction groups. There are entire publishing houses, entire bookstores, devoted to meeting the needs of this market niche.
This genre doesn't seem to have much of a life in the UK, probably because the market for it is so much smaller. If you go to Christian bookshops here and look for fiction the vast majority of the titles appear to be from the USA.
American fiction about modern Amish women seems to be a popular sub-genre, and it has a prominent presence in UK Christian bookshops. I bought two such novels from a charity shop recently, and it'll be interesting to see what their appeal is.
African American church-based novels also have a following here. You don't find them in Christian bookshops (maybe in London?) but I've been to inner city libraries that have quite a large selection. I should think they appeal mostly to British people (probably women) of African Caribbean descent. Black British fiction contains a lot of religious characters, but you don't seem to get church-based fiction as such.
[ 17. October 2015, 12:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have never read any of them, although they have their own section (!) in my local public library. An important part of fiction for me is that sense of possibility -- that anything, anything at all, could happen if only the author is clever and creative enough. The idea that it must end HEA or HFN (Happily Ever After or Happy For Now, the only allowable endings for the romance genre) or that salvation must be achieved by the last page is anathema to me.
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The idea that [...] salvation must be achieved by the last page is anathema to me.
This is one reason why even some Christian authors say that the 'Christian novel' is actually an impossibility, or at least an extremely problematic idea.
I think conversion, or just simple, unproblematised faith works more easily in the short story, but the novel is a troublesome beast. The famous literary critic Georg Lukacs said that 'the novel is the epic of a world abandoned by God'. This could mean a variety of things, but it certainly indicates that a neat Christian conclusion is unacceptable, at least for a 'good' novel.
Mind you, 'happily ever after' is not only acceptable but is required in the extremely popular romance genre. You could say that in some sense concluding with a successful love affair is the secular alternative to the Christian conversion narrative. And it's much more culturally tolerable in fiction too - even 'good' fiction.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Well, I have ended a novel with the troubled protagonist's conversion. But it took a couple hundred thousand words to orchestrate him there, and it was a very idiosyncratic journey indeed. I've only ever done it that once. I have had Christian protagonists, and their religion has not slowed them down for one tiny second in exploring the full panoply of sins open to humanity, and sometimes adding creative twists of their own. So I guess they are not Christian fiction.
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