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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Inquire Within: general questions
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
Seems like you can bury someone anywhere on private property in England. . As long as you fill in a form. And it's not too near water.
But are you sure the church in the village is a protestant church and not a CofE church? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) (Actually bit serious, protestant to me living here in England would imply non-conformist - Baptist or the like - rather than the village CofE church.)
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Really! I did not know that. (How very different from the habits of the US!) Yes, it is CofE, but I doubt they used the term in the 1860s.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Coronation Oath 1953
quote:
Archbishop:
Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel? Will you to the utmost of your power maintain in the United Kingdom the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law? Will you maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the Church of England, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established in England...?
Queen:
All this I promise to do.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Yes, it is CofE, but I doubt they used the term in the 1860s.
No, I think they probably would just have referred to the church or village church. Methodist and Baptist etc would have been 'the chapel' and a Catholic church would have that descriptor. (But IAN an historian.)
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
... but if said place of worship is 'part of a ruinous (think you mean ruined?) castle then it would be referred to as the chapel.
Burial: you can be buried where you like, by whoever you like, so long as you have the death certificate and have notified the registrar of what the plans are for the disposal of the body and the location of the disposal is noted.
DYK that if you scatter remains in rivers or at sea you are meant to notify the relevant authority - NRA M&CA or local harbour wallahs - before doing it?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I would check in contemporary novels written to see how people spoke of the church - Trollope, perhaps? Parish church, I would hazard a guess, because of the concept that the vicar, or rector - with a big house thereabouts I would guess the latter, had the care of all in his parish, regardless of whether they were Anglican or not.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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chenab
Apprentice
# 18278
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Posted
Brenda - I'm almost tempted to say pass but very very probably and I can't see why not. Your date is around the time legislation and attitudes changed which makes a simple answer not easy to give.
And for various reasons issues like being near the watertable and needing planning permission to do a second burial would not apply - so much of what has already been said, while correct, need not have applied then.
However given it's location as part of a castle then I don't see that the reformation would have closed it down, rather it would have been less used as the castle was steadily abandoned. However it would have remained a private chapel still in the hands of the family concerned.
Which means that we probably assume incorrectly it was deconsecrated and it probably wasn't - that comes in more with the rise of council cemeteries and of passing the maintenance of closed churchyards over to the civil authorities.
It is effectively already a churchyard in private hands so there are no planning issues, and being a private chapel/burial ground then it would very probably not be closed and quite possibly could not be closed depending on any, probably ancient, documents between the pre-reformation church, the local nobility and possibly the monarch of the day.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2014
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Thank you, one and all. The point became so knotty that I decided to resurrect the fellow after all. He is not dead but gone before.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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chenab
Apprentice
# 18278
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Posted
Obviously that works as well. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2014
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Also the CoE would have been more markedly Protestant in the 1860s, and members would have thought of themselves as such.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
I am considering ways to put the library catalogue of my local Quaker meeting online.
I've looked at Library Thing but don't really need the social networking aspect of it.
I think I remember a ship thread on this subject in the past; can you give me any other recommendations?
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
Didn't the law change relatively recently - less than 20 years ago - allowing burial anywhere? There was a lot of speculation about the suitability of having granny buried in the back garden!
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
@TreeBee
You might like to check out the guidance provided by the Library of the RSoF at http://quaker.org.uk/meeting-librarians
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
@TreeBee
You might like to check out the guidance provided by the Library of the RSoF at http://quaker.org.uk/meeting-librarians
Thank you. Very interested that Library Thing is recommended as Wikipedia says it's 40% owned by Amazon which we are trying to avoid using for book purchasing.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
I don't know that it recommends LibraryThing... and it was, I think written before concerns about Amazon became mainstream..
I suspect that if you want free you may have to accept some negatives... and, actually, even professional library packages aren't without problems!
Couple of other things you could check out:
http://www.abtapl.org.uk/
And
http://lists.quaker.eu.org/mailman/listinfo/librarians
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
In a Victorian novel, a character refers to "Letsome", apparently a reference work. Does anyone know what this might be? A friend suggests this is :An Index to the Sermons Published Since the REstoration" by one Sampson Letsome. Does anyone know more?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If you google letsome reference you can find a digital version of Letsome's Preacher's Assistant.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
This has bugged me for a while: in my (relatively) new flat in a lovely mid-1800s building, I've got one 8-metre-long and 4-metre-wide room with two casement windows on the long side.
If I open both windows, which are about 3 metres apart, at the same time and if there is no wind - no problem. When there is a slight breeze, however, the window closer to the corner of the house tends to get sucked (or blown?) closed, and the curtain drawn outside. Sometimes, with somewhat stronger wind, this may happen with both of the windows and the curtains.
As I'm not that educamated re physics: what exactly is happening here pressure-wise?
In my windowian innocence, I'd always imagined this: the wind blows from one side, and both windows are facing the same side (not necessarily the wind direction), so there must be the same influx of air into both windows. With the door open, I must then have thought that the air blown (or sucked?) into the room would mysteriously spread into the rest of the flat, but I guess this would just lead to increased pressure inside the house, which perhaps then makes the door go shut with a bang.
It seems to me I didn't take into account differences in pressure nor turbulences. I find this less irritating than very fascinating!
Anyone have an insight into what exactly is happening here? - Thank you. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Some of this may be the Bernoulli principle where a flow of air causes a drop in pressure at right angles.
Do the windows open in or out?
Two other possibilities; is there a column on the outside of the building between the windows? That would cause different pressures.
Is there a chimney or stack on the house. Air going by the chimney may cause the air pressure to change.
There are people who do insulation studies on houses for you where they find leaks and pressure flows that cost heating fuel bills to increase.
So you might see something with smoke or fog or a fan.
[Url made clickable. - Ariel]
[ 03. January 2015, 09:01: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
If anyone finds that a url doesn't seem to display so it can be clicked on (sometimes there's no visible reason for this) or it's simply too long, just pop it into Tinyurl and copy the result it gives you for a short, easy-to-use link instead.
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I've got a book on Siberian flora and fauna, published in the 1990s ,which shows a picture of a flame-coloured flower that looks like a lily to me but is described as Iris Pennsylvanicum. Pretty odd name for a flower found in Siberia.
Have tried Google generally and RHS - no luck. I've found something called a Siberian Lily, but it's white. Any suggestions?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Oddly try "Lilium Pennsylvanicum" which reminds me strongly of a plant which I seem to recall has an English name with contains iris.
This is going back to childhood (pre-teens) when we had a bed filled with what looks like these plants. If it is what I think it is, it grows in this country and its stamen dye things orange very easily. I can remember being forbidden to touch them.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It sounds as if it might be a typo and they put "iris" when they meant "lily". Does it look like this?
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Wesley J - first of all, yes, what Palimpsest said. (And it would be great fun to do some experiments releasing smoke into the room and seeing what happened... What? What do you mean, what about your nice clean curtains? - this is science!) Bernoulli has a lot to answer for, including aeroplanes. But also, generally, air flow in city streets is incredibly complex. Meteorologists have made careers out of studying it. Within about 10 metres of any solid surface (such as a building) air flow will be modified and won't be anything like a simple horizontal flow of air in one direction. One interesting effect, for instance, is that wind can sometimes move in a sort of spiral down a street (down one side, across the road, up the other side, etc.). Also, you can get little whirlwind effects at the corners of buildings - you can see them sometimes, on dry windy days, showing up as little flurries of dust. All of this and more makes the differential pressure on your windows a lot more difficult to predict than the people who built your building ever thought!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Wesley J,
What Adeodatus & Palimpsest said. with the addition of that it unlikely that the wind blows at a strict right angle to the wall the windows are in. This will also influence the motion of the curtains. What you need also for Adeodatus' experiment is an exterior wind vane. of course, a very sensitive vane could be used inside with no need for smoke.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
It sounds as if it might be a typo and they put "iris" when they meant "lily". Does it look like this?
IF this is the plant, here is the reason for the name.
quote:
The Latin name is misleading due to an error by the botanist John Bellenden Ker.
[ 03. January 2015, 18:25: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
It sounds as if it might be a typo and they put "iris" when they meant "lily". Does it look like this?
Yes! Thanks, Ariel, and thanks also to Jengie and lilBuddha. And it won't Siberia, it was Ussuriland, which is much closer to Pennsylvania in terms of latitude, so that makes sense.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
They don't usually let you take photos in a courtroom during a trial, yet they permit artists' illustrations. What's the reasoning behind this?
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
I think originally photographs were banned as being (potentially) disruptive, and sketches were used as a workaround to the ban. I seem to remember a court decision that sketching was no different in practice to note-taking, so couldn't be prohibited.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I understand that, in the UK, the court artist cannot make sketches while in the court, either, but has to do it afterwards.
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
My daughter has been invited by American teenage friends to a "Nacho Average" birthday party. Googling tells me that this is a common phrase but I am still none the wiser as to its meaning! I know what nachos are and I presume they will eating them but what's with the 'average' bit?? Anyone able to enlighten me?
[ 10. January 2015, 08:23: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
I believe the phrase originated with the film Nacho Libre : "He's not lean. He's not mean. He's nacho average hero."
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I assume it's a play on "Not your average birthday party." But with nachos.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Ah, that kind of works! Especially if I try and say it with an American accent.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
They don't usually let you take photos in a courtroom during a trial, yet they permit artists' illustrations. What's the reasoning behind this?
They are different in nature. If you are in a park and a person is sat there with an easel, do you feel the same level of intrusion as if it were a person with a camera?
A drawn or painted image is seen as a representation where a photograph is seen as a verified reality. Both can create the same false impression, but they are judged differently.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Also, a drawing can show just one person, but a photo may show more than that. I think it is forbidden to show members of the jury.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Also, a drawing can show just one person, but a photo may show more than that. I think it is forbidden to show members of the jury.
That makes sense. I wondered if it had something to do with "data protection". Though the accused is always portrayed.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I've come across an entry in my church records:
3 Jan 1714. Collection for Mrs England, wife of a minister, whose husband and six children had been murdered by the barbarous natives of the town of Golloun.
I've been trying to google to find out more about this incident, to no avail. Even a suggestion as to the whereabouts of "the town of Golloun" would help.
[ 13. January 2015, 14:41: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Also, a drawing can show just one person, but a photo may show more than that. I think it is forbidden to show members of the jury.
I have seen UK courtroom sketches that show jurors, but they have been rough sketches - not sufficient to identify a juror. I had always thought that this was connected to the fact that it is contempt of court to ask jurors about their deliberations, or for jurors to disclose such details.
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I've come across an entry in my church records:
3 Jan 1714. Collection for Mrs England, wife of a minister, whose husband and six children had been murdered by the barbarous natives of the town of Golloun.
I've been trying to google to find out more about this incident, to no avail. Even a suggestion as to the whereabouts of "the town of Golloun" would help.
A decent possibility would be Goulon in Cameroon. This website puts it in the department of Mayo-Louti, in the North province. The nearest large town seems to be Guider.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I've come across an entry in my church records:
3 Jan 1714. Collection for Mrs England, wife of a minister, whose husband and six children had been murdered by the barbarous natives of the town of Golloun.
I've been trying to google to find out more about this incident, to no avail. Even a suggestion as to the whereabouts of "the town of Golloun" would help.
A decent possibility would be Goulon in Cameroon. This website puts it in the department of Mayo-Louti, in the North province. The nearest large town seems to be Guider.
Though thinking about it, 1714 seems awfully early for a British missionary to be that far inland in Africa, especially with a family. 1814 would have made more sense. The only possible explanation I can think of is that he was more like a chaplain to a small white settlement, perhaps at a trading post on a major river, or something. Or maybe some misguided attempt at setting up an early colony. But chances are I have the wrong Goulon/Golloun. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thank you! Google isn't helping at all, partly because a surname like "England" confuses things. I'm trying out various combinations of "Rev England" and "Mr England" - what would an early C18th missionary have been called?
Also the entry doesn't say when the minister and children were killed - I'm assuming 1713, if the collection was held in Jan 1714, but might it have been earlier?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
NEQ--
You might try genealogy sites, like Ancestry.com. (Sorry, I had trouble with the URL button.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks, Golden Key, I've tried Ancestry.com and it's not helping.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
NEQ--
How clear is the handwriting?
How would a minister have gone on foreign missions then? Through the denomination, or another organization? Would someone have records?
I see you're in Scotland. English spelling was quite different from now, and if you add in Gaelic... Maybe something other than "galloun" is meant?
You might try the variant "Englund".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
A web search turned up this page from the National Library of Scotland. It says that the Glasgow and Edinburgh Missionary Societies, were both founded in 1796 and represented both the Church of Scotland and the Secession Church, and initiated evangelization in West Africa, the Caribbean (from 1800), the Caucasus (from 1802) - so the timescale might fit.
Does that give you another place to look? It would take considerable time and effort, I guess.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Sorry, got muddled between 1714 & 1814 - the former does seem too early in the history of British Protestant missions.
Might they have been with the East India Company? - not that it was particularly friendly to Christians.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks. The handwriting is quite clear. It was written either by the minister or the Session Clerk, who at that point was the local schoolmaster, so whoever wrote it was a University graduate. (Although they must have received the news by letter, and who knows what that handwriting was like!)
However, the information is limited to that one single sentence. I don't know if describing Mr England as a "minister" implies that he was a Church of Scotland minister (my church is, and was then, the parish church) and I'm assuming that "barbarous natives" implies overseas mission, although he could have been a minister attached to a colony?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
Goullon seems a French word so possibly a French colony? But 1714 was a time of colonisation and emigration in the Australias so there is a possibility.
A quick google of Goullon Australia just shows lots of people called Le Goullon in Australia, which just seems to confirm we're looking at a French colony.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Taking another angle, I have had a look for early 18th century missionary societies. Like I said, it is really early for Protestant missionary work of this kind. But it turns out the SPCK was founded in 1698, and there was a Scottish branch as well. According to their wikipedia page, they focussed initially on the Americas, and then in 1709 they sent a printing press and trained printer out to East India. There may also have been some involvement in the Spice Islands. So the Americas or East India might be your best bet.
You could try contacting the SPCK, who I am sure will have records. There are also other related societies, such as the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts (the SPG). I found some archival material for this at Lambeth Palace Library. There are some books mentioned on that page about the history of the society, at least one of which you can find in Edinburgh University Library.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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