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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Don't blink (Dr Who thread)
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: He was quoted on the Imdb trivia page on "Hell Bent."
Thank you, I found it. The quote is "If the Doctor has lost his moral compass, if he's being selfish, if you really, really hacked him off, if you really got him angry and gave him nothing to fight for.. what would you end up with?"
Going all exegetical for a moment, it's not exactly clear what he meant with "[if you] gave him nothing to fight for". I'm not sure if we should interpret this as "he has nothing to care for now that Clara is gone".
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Both the old man and Clara sacrificed themselves for others, even though the old man ran. And I'm sure that the old man and his wife's story reminded me of something I read, or heard, somewhere else. Isaac Bashevis Singer, maybe?
What would have been different if the old man had stood his ground, I wonder.
[ 23. November 2015, 19:24: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: And I'm sure that the old man and his wife's story reminded me of something I read, or heard, somewhere else. Isaac Bashevis Singer, maybe?
Interesting. I don't think I've read anything by Singer.
quote:
Penny S: What would have been different if the old man had stood his ground, I wonder.
I'm sure that the old man was put there in the story to make the contrast with Clara who didn't run. What's interesting is that the old man was really a Cyberman. I don't think that part of the episode was well thought-out.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
I found the otherwise well-played death scene undercut by the music. I don't need sweeping violins to tell me when to be sad.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
The outcome was, apparently, the same, though. Both dead. Both with the black smoke going off.
Ah ha, I'm rewatching for a particular detail. One of the two greeters is called Rump, which name occurs in the list for the finale.
I'm not absolutely convinced the old man was a Cyberman. It was discussed elsewhere, and someone suggested that the punishment generally had to be fierce enough to make a Cyberman fear it. He didn't behave in any way like a Cyberman. Besides which, from what the other greeter said, referring to them always running, the whole thing seems as effective as school canings in the days when the punishment book showed the same names over and over again. Ashildr keeps killing. People keep breaking the rules.
And she obviously doesn't read her diary enough, since she has not remembered that deals done with aliens may not be what one expects. She has made the same mistake again.
[ 23. November 2015, 20:27: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
If not Singer, someone else Jewish. It felt like a story from the camps. Not any refugee one. Perhaps about taking bread? Which makes Ashildr what?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: The outcome was, apparently, the same, though. Both dead. Both with the black smoke going off.
True, but this season makes a big deal of the question: how do we face death? For example, this was rather obvious in the highwayman who was convicted to the gallows and who started to make dirty jokes.
quote:
Penny S: I'm not absolutely convinced the old man was a Cyberman.
I don't trust my memory 100%, but I recall Ashildr literally saying that he was a Cyberman.
quote:
Penny S: Besides which, from what the other greeter said, referring to them always running, the whole thing seems as effective as school canings in the days when the punishment book showed the same names over and over again. Ashildr keeps killing. People keep breaking the rules.
I'm not really sure what you mean here.
quote:
Penny S: And she obviously doesn't read her diary enough, since she has not remembered that deals done with aliens may not be what one expects. She has made the same mistake again.
You're right. And I feel that the episode glosses over this a bit too easily.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
What Ashildr said (and I've just rewatched, to find out) was "Would a Cyberman be afraid of a merciful death?" Which rather leaves it open. But a Cyberman would not be able to move as the old man did, even if he looked like an old man.
The bit about the punishment book was that her method simply doesn't work. She has to keep on executing people. If it worked, she wouldn't need to. It doesn't deter. And the one with the glasses knows it, and doesn't like it.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: What Ashildr said (and I've just rewatched, to find out) was "Would a Cyberman be afraid of a merciful death?" Which rather leaves it open. But a Cyberman would not be able to move as the old man did, even if he looked like an old man.
Okay, on both things. I'm not sure if there is any significance to this. (What I do find significant personally is that the Doctor is angrier about Clara's death than about the old man's. The episode doesn't pay much attention to this.)
quote:
Penny S: The bit about the punishment book was that her method simply doesn't work. She has to keep on executing people. If it worked, she wouldn't need to. It doesn't deter. And the one with the glasses knows it, and doesn't like it.
Agreed. This is clearly a comment on zero-tolerance laws and giving up some of our rights for security, but the episode doesn't delve very deeply into that. We never really meet the inhabitants of trap street besides a few plot-related lines, which is a bit of a shame. But I imagine that the episode had a lot to do.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
And why didn't the Doctor even try anything? To simply stand back and admit defeat is not in the character of any Doctor we've seen.
Hmmmmm. Interesting. I am reaching here, but I wonder if we are all being led down the garden path. Early in the episode, when Clara mentions "trap streets" the Doctor does react--almost like it suddenly occurred to him that this whole thing was a trap. And he went into it knowingly. And he saw Riggsy's tattoo so he knew what he was up against. So did he make plans for emergency situations if they needed to avoid the Shadow? And remember that the place was filled with perception filters so nothing that we saw necessarily was what actually was. Surely the Doctor could hack that system in no time. And the Doctor and Clara hugged before the end, which gave him time to whisper to her what to do (like play dead)--a favorite tactic of recent Doctors. I wonder if, two episodes from now, we are going to have another bait-and-switch like in the "Impossible Astronaut" season and nothing we saw was real.
Just speculating.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
@Hedgehog: that's definitely a possibility. There was also something jarring about "he has a countdown tattoo, let's look for a trap street".
If you don't mind, I hope you're wrong.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Erik
Shipmate
# 11406
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
[QUOTE]Penny S:[qb] What I do find significant personally is that the Doctor is angrier about Clara's death than about the old man's. The episode doesn't pay much attention to this.
I agree that this is noteworthy. It reminded me of the 'Under the Lake' episode where the Doctor only really kicked into action when Clara was in danger. At the time I felt a bit uncomfortable at the implication that the other people's lives didn't really matter in the Doctor's eyes. Especially the comment that the Doctor put Clara's name on the list his ghost was reciting in order to make him act.
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One day I will think of something worth saying here.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Erik: I agree that this is noteworthy. It reminded me of the 'Under the Lake' episode where the Doctor only really kicked into action when Clara was in danger. At the time I felt a bit uncomfortable at the implication that the other people's lives didn't really matter in the Doctor's eyes. Especially the comment that the Doctor put Clara's name on the list his ghost was reciting in order to make him act.
Yes, it reminded me of the same thing. I was thinking, if the show wants an emotional arc for the Doctor in the next season(s), this might be an interesting one to consider.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
That's interesting. As if, following the regeneration upgrade, when he had spent ages caring for others, he had realised he was losing something vital to himself, and Clara was the only way he had of holding on to it. She was the one who was concerned about Riggsy. Not him.
Or that SM can only bother about Clara. I think the diversity of Nuwho is good, but the Dr has to be the core.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Today, I received the Radio Times for the week after next, as they get ahead of the Christmas special rush. Anyone want any spoilers? It has an article by Moffat, in which he mentions the necessities attendant on writing for characters of superior intelligence, such as Sherlock and the Doctor, when one does not, oneself, necessarily match them.
Meanwhile, as I was wandering round Waitrose, and contemplating the magazine rack, it occurred to me that Who has been written as if the Doctor cannot function alone, as if he has to have a shakti, or an external anima to advise him.
At which point, the bit of my brain which likes to fish around for musical accompaniments to my thoughts started singing "As he has no anima to give him advice" and started a mud laden ear worm. Which has now produced this.
Not sure about the last line yet.
The place where the Dr is is no Paradise
Despite what the title may say
And now with no anima to give him advice
It seems that's where he'll have to stay
With the Veil getting closer, a threatening shade
Hiding who knows what under his hood
We hope, with no spoiler, it's not mere pot-boiler
The finale had better be good
Dud, dud, we don't want a dud
A plot falling down with a resounding thud
A plot that's so hollow, that we'll never swallow
We just want to wallow in narrative flood.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Hehe, that's creative. Looking forward to this evening's episode. I don't have a TV licence, so I can only watch it in catch-up.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
And next week's cast list is wrong, as this one's was.
I'm still mulling.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Let me see if I got this right.
The Doctor is on Gallifrey, which is in a pocket universe in the tower in the Doctor's confession dial, which is in the Doctor's pocket, who is on Gallifrey which is in a pocket universe, hich is ...
I love a good paradox.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Very good. There was a moment that really made me jump.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I found it a mixture between boring and extremely irritating.
It's no good, much as I want to, I don't like Doctor Who much at the moment.
M.
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Please tell me he lied about the hybrid...
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Please tell me he lied about the hybrid...
Are you worried that this is the half-human on his mother's side thing? The internet mass guess is that it's got nothing to do with that; the Doctor may not have actually said that he was the hybrid?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Wow, the next day I'm still thinking about this episode. So many good things in here. Easily one of the best episodes of NuWho.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It was stunning.
And proved he was utterly correct in fearing Gallifrey. Billions upon billions of Groundhog Days.
And reminded me how much I hated not understanding the end of 2001.
He said "The hybrid...is me."
Which has another interpretation. If you capitalise the "me".
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: He said "The hybrid...is me."
Which has another interpretation. If you capitalise the "me".
Yes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Penny S: He said "The hybrid...is me."
Which has another interpretation. If you capitalise the "me".
Yes.
Oh golly, good point.
I enjoyed it, but I wouldn't say it was one of the greatest episodes. What I would say, though, is the last part, once you know what's going on, is amazing and horrifying and heartbreaking and powerful.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Addendum: And Me totally is a hybrid. She's human, but then she has that other thing in her that's been keeping her alive forever.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I found it a mixture between boring and extremely irritating.
I thought it was like a Shakespeare play. Lots of long, convoluted speeches, very dramatic acting and no action!
Like Shakespeare I think it will grow on me, so I shall watch it again.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Heaven Sent was Doctor Who meets Camus meets 18th century gothic meets 1980s computer adventures meets Kafka meets M.R.James meets nightmare meets parable.
And I absolutely loved it! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I loved it. Reminded me of Iain Banks. With GoT and Black Mirror thrown in for good measure.
I like this style of story - paradox, surrealism, a confused doctor, and (for me) a gripping storyline.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
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Posted
Liked it and had spotted the cyclical nature very early one.
Also seemed to have echoes of Scherzo, for any other Big Finish fans ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It was obviously necessary for the Dr not to have the confession dial when he put on the transporter bracelet or there would have been a horrible paradox.
And I wonder if the reason it fell off was because he had, like Kay in "The Box of Delights" gone small. (Though delightful this obviously wasn't.)
So why had he sent the dial to Missy in the first place?
And what did he mean by saying, presumably to the Gallifreyan lot, "I know what you've done"?
I haven't given up on the whole season being a dream, or a story, or the equivalent of a holodeck episode* with someone who doesn't really know the details of Earth history cobbling it together. Only it would have to be the Time Lords. The whole sequence could be inside the gadget.
As in "thanks very much for stopping us being destroyed - now we're going to give you hell, little by little by little".
Did you notice the flies, like the planes in the first episode?
I thought Ashildr looked more like herself in the trailer - no fancy hairdo, more relaxed.
*After all, they've now done the transporter trick idea.
[ 29. November 2015, 15:35: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Forgot to mention, somewhat irrelevantly, that the first comment under the Daily Telegraph review is always by someone (not the same someone) complaining that it is too politically correct. too many females (the director in this case) or a black face in the Tyburn crowd. The rest are mixed fan stuff. Odd.
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I loved it. Reminded me of Iain Banks. With GoT and Black Mirror thrown in for good measure.
Got a strong taste of 'Feersum Endjinn' once I saw the building move, plus it shouted 'confession dial' at the same time. But while I loved it, I did get frustrated throughout the episode until I underwood what was going on. I must be getting shallow in my old age... Capaldi was great, though.
We believe many of the interior scenes were filmed in Warwick Castle (the hall was the most recognisable)
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I thought some of the decorated stuff later in the programme looked like Cardiff, or Castell Coch.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Revised it was all a dream idea...
The first episode, in which we saw the dial, was the set up. He had never had it, it wasn't his creation at all. Missy may not even have been Missy. (Though she's listed in Hell Bent on Imdb.) He had been in hiding in the Middle Ages - and it may be no accident that the same actor played Bors and the Veil, and that the exits from both Ep 1 and the Raven were made in the same way, without the Tardis. Some form of Clara was needed to find him and hand him the dial. (Not sure about that bit. Echo? Zygon?) (Second thought here - Bors was already there, so may be more complicated than that.)
Thereafter, it's been revisiting things and living through them, regardless of inconsistencies until he makes it out onto Gallifrey, separated from the Tardis, which, as we know, is sentient and could have influenced things to his advantage.
Basically a holodeck series.
Clara isn't in the cast list. Claire Bloom, who played a woman who might be the Dr's mother isn't playing The Woman, and the actress who is hasn't a photo.
[ 30. November 2015, 15:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think the guy who played the Veil played Snake Guy in the first two parter? I need to check again.
I think you're right about the castle. These scenes seem to have been filmed in Cardiff and Caerphili castles.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
You're right, Colony Sarf. Makes the hypothesis better, slightly. But something made me think Bors was repeated - wonder what. Not checking though.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I liked Bors. I wouldn't mind him coming back one day.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
I thought the story was brilliant.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Just a question: did anyone get the part about the octagonal(?) sand pit with the chalk arrows?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Friends on Facebook are saying it is either a) brilliant or b) cockwomble. On the whole I'm going with b). When I watched it on iPlayer I got a phone call shortly before the end and had to pause it. When I realised there was still 10 minutes to go I had to force myself to turn it back on - I was so bored with all the repetition.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Trailer for next week - the shack with the destruct device in it was visible in the distance.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Just a question: did anyone get the part about the octagonal(?) sand pit with the chalk arrows?
No, but it looked as if the Veil could use it to teleport to the 'grave'.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Friends on Facebook are saying it is either a) brilliant or b) cockwomble. On the whole I'm going with b). When I watched it on iPlayer I got a phone call shortly before the end and had to pause it. When I realised there was still 10 minutes to go I had to force myself to turn it back on - I was so bored with all the repetition.
I'm solidly between the two positions. It was a good idea, but it was a tiny bit overlong and overstretched. You couldn't have anything too zany so soon after Clara's death so serious is fine, but 10 minutes too long is about right.
RA, may I compliment your use of Cockwomble. I'm thinking of slipping it into conversation tomorrow. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Friends on Facebook are saying it is either a) brilliant or b) cockwomble. On the whole I'm going with b). When I watched it on iPlayer I got a phone call shortly before the end and had to pause it. When I realised there was still 10 minutes to go I had to force myself to turn it back on - I was so bored with all the repetition.
It was a Marmite episode. You got bored with the repetition, I loved the slow, lyrical pace. I've actually just watched it for the fourth time, and I can't get enough of it. Writing, acting and directing are all perfectly judged - if you can accept that the outcome is something utterly different from almost every other Doctor Who story. Every time I watch it I see new details. Last time, for instance, there's the moment when the Doctor says "...and you won't be there" to imaginary Clara. And the heavy, despondent way he sits down - I thought, I have seen exactly that when someone has been told of the death of a friend.
This was a beautifully crafted piece of tv drama. But no, it won't have been to everyone's taste.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I am still not sure how I feel about this episode. I think it felt long because it was largely a solo act. But I agree with Adeodatus that the Doctor's comments to and about Clara were wonderfully heartbreaking.
But I am having trouble making the bits fit. So the transporter ring sent him into the Confession Dial? But the Doctor doesn't seem to have recognized it as such--at least, not right away. His constant looking at the stars implied he considered them "real" stars. The whole time lapse thing assumes that they are real stars. But were they fake if it all occurred inside the Dial?
And where was the Dial this whole time? Did it teleport to Gallifrey or was it placed there so that, when the Doctor emerged, he would be on the planet? If it teleports to Gallifrey, then does that mean that the Doctor was carrying a Confession Dial that is sort of like his last will & testament without knowing that it provided access to his home planet? Or did he know all along that it would? Was that his confession--that he knew where to find Gallifrey all this time? Is that why, when he thought he was going to die, he sent the Dial to Missy--so that the other surviving Time Lord might find it? But...but...but...
Of course, still one more episode left. Plenty of time for explanations.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Hedgehog: But I am having trouble making the bits fit.
It depends a bit on how many logical leaps you're willing to make to get caught up in the story, but what works for me is that the confession dial isn't a physical thing or a physical space within our universe. I think that this can deal with some of your questions.
quote:
Hedgehog: Is that why, when he thought he was going to die, he sent the Dial to Missy--so that the other surviving Time Lord might find it? But...but...but...
Yes. I need to check again but the last time we saw the confession dial was in episode 2 where it ended up with Missy, right? In this case, it would need some explaining why the Doctor had it at the beginning of Face the Raven.
quote:
Hedgehog: Of course, still one more episode left. Plenty of time for explanations.
Agreed. I'll be in Africa, so I'm unsure when I'll be able to watch it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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