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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Steam Locomotive Restoration
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes. Whyever not?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Something really curious from over here, about North American steam development are cab-forward locomotives. We had push-pull fitted tank engines, which could be driven from a driving compartment at the other end of the train. But engines built that way, we never had.
Unless you count Bullied's "Leader" class! This had three cabs: one at each end for the driver and a cubbyhole in the centre for the poor fireman.
I expect the "Cab Forwards" aand many other big locomotives had mechanical stokers, because they would be a serious job for a man to fire.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Of course some of the very early Hackworth locos, with the "out-and-back" flue-type boiler, had the tender and the fireman out at the front, with the driver at the back.
I think you could get away with a "remote" driver on an autotrain because the firing required was not particularly arduous or complex. But a mainline loco going up Shap (say) would need careful co-ordination between driver and stoker.
I was under the impression that the US cab-forwards - at least the Southern Pacific ones - were oil-fired. The Leaders would have been better with oil firing IMO, apart from anything else that cubby hole was extremely hot and potentially lethal in the event of an accident which turned the loco onto its side.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
Sooner or later someone will ask why such huge sums of money are going into projects to restore and recreate old locomotives, what is the benefit, and how can it be justified. I am not sure of the right answer, but it has given an enormous amount of pleasure to an enormous number of people since it began to take off seriously. I have pleasant memories of visiting the Bluebell Railway just after it reopened in the 1960s, and I want my grandchildren to find out what it was that excited me when I was their ages. The sounds and smells can't be expressed in words or videos - you have to be there. Is it worth it? I think so.
Nothing in railway preservation has really excited me as much as the recreation of a Gresley P2 in something close to its original form, even if calling it "Prince of Wales" seems out of keeping with the glorious names of the originals, "Cock o' The North", "Earl Marischal", and so on. The opportunity to update some of its features, particularly the rotary valve gear, will tell us if, like the "Duke of Gloucester", it really can be the magnificent engine it almost was, so I'm looking forward to its completion. In my time the P2s were reduced to the unfortunate Thompson rebuilds, but my father used to see them on the line they were built for when he lived in Cupar, so there's small sentimental attachment to them.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
The Southern Pacific cab forwards (and there is a wonderful example in the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento) were oil-fired, as were most steam locomotives operating west of the Rockies (The Big Boys were coal-fired, but then Wyoming had ample supplies of the stuff).
The cab forwards were designed to handle the many tunnels and snow sheds on the Sierra Nevada crossing. Crews would become nearly asphyxiated due to the collected smoke in those tunnels and sheds. The oil feed was pressurized to enter the firebox just to the rear of the cab, and the locomotive ran constantly in reverse, if compared to a number steam locomotive.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Whilst I appreciate our British shipmates love of their own steam lccos, I must admit that I am somewhat baffled by British steam. For example, the SR's Q1 0-6-0, which I guess was the equivalent of the DR's Kriegslok, appears completely bizarre to me, as the only 20th century North American locomotives with that wheel arrangement were switchers. Was this due to the very limited loading gauge of British lines?
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Continued ... I'm not sure about the genesis of the Q1 - other railways were building "ordinary" locos but Bulleid always had to be different. Mind you, the Q1s were good locos and could easily run at up to 70mph (in both directions). I doubt if the earlier Qs, designed by Maunsell, could do that although they were mechanically fairly similar.
Ivatt and the LMS were the company that finally ditched the traditional inside-cylinder 0-6-0 arrangement and went for outside-cylinder 2-6-0s which then formed the basis for the BR Standards. They also decided on diesel shunters (switchers) more than the others.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
You beat me to it, LA Dave. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Further, all locomotives larger than Mikado or Pacific had to have a mechanical stoker.
The Interstate Commerce Commission in the US mandated that all locomotives with a weight of 160,000 (passenger) or 175,000 (freight) lbs or more on drivers required a mechanical stoker.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Thanks, SPK. I recently watched a 1940s video on how to fire a LMS locomotive (I think a Pacific), and essentially the fireman was shoveling about 5-6 shovelfuls every two minutes when running on level ground. Moreover, the coal was not broken up in appropriately sized pieces for the firebox, but had to be broken up by the fireman.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
A mechanical stoker was tried on a 9F. Apparently, it was fine when it worked, but it was very fussy about what sort of coal it could happen. Unless the coal was preselected before coaling to be the right size, the stoker was likely to jam. Often this was in ways that the fireman could not sort on the move. Because the mechanism was in the way, it was difficult/impossible to fire it manually.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I would have thought that mechanical stokers would have been most successful in places where the coal was fairly soft and of low quality. That usually wasn't the case in Britain, where hard coal was prized for locomotive work.
What were useful in Britain were the mechanical coal pushers that brought forward coal from the back of the tender. That LMS "Coronations" had them but I don't know which other classes may have had them.
In today's climate it does seem a trifle bizarre t think that high-speed public transport was dependent on the physical labour of one man.
[ 17. December 2015, 07:58: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
Tangent alert. <trying to work out how to ice a steam train shaped Christmas cake, and still keep the shape> carry on as you were.
Use a forcing bag with a star-shaped tip, and place the stars so they touch each other.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
<more tangent> Round candies for the wheels -- select them for size, and stick them into position with more frosting. Gumdrops or other dome-shaped candies to mount on top. Put all the unused candies into a dish and serve on a side table.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I haven't posted on SoF much recently, but this is a thread to tempt me back!
I like 4-4-2s. It is sad that WW2 caused the LNER to scrap the NBR Atlantic (I think it was 'Midlothian') that they had set aside for preservation. An NER Raven 'Z' class 4-4-2 would be good to have had as well, as the story told by the two NER 2-4-0s and the one M1 4-4-0 is incomplete.
The LNER is my favourite 'Big Four' company if you haven't guessed!
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I'm not that into replicas, by the way. The 'Saint' I just about approve of as it reverses the process that made the first 'Hall' and uses most of the components of 4942 'Maindy Hall'. There are enough Halls preserved as 'Halls'.
The Std. 2MT 2-6-2T on the Bluebell is an alright project too. 78059 had no tender and most of its components are being used on the 'tank' version. Three of its class survive as 2-6-0s (I've ridden behind 2 of them).
I don't like the 'County' though. It involved taking the boiler from the only 8F to survive that was Doncaster-built, and scrapping the rest. 8Fs are much more interesting than 'Counties anyway.
[ 17. December 2015, 13:45: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
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'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What were useful in Britain were the mechanical coal pushers that brought forward coal from the back of the tender. That LMS "Coronations" had them but I don't know which other classes may have had them.
I have a feeling that the LMS Garratts had coal pushers, but they had a tendency to be unreliable.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
Whilst I appreciate our British shipmates love of their own steam lccos, I must admit that I am somewhat baffled by British steam. For example, the SR's Q1 0-6-0, which I guess was the equivalent of the DR's Kriegslok, appears completely bizarre to me, as the only 20th century North American locomotives with that wheel arrangement were switchers. Was this due to the very limited loading gauge of British lines?
Part of the reason for the Q1's was Bullied's fascination with Total Adhesion, which would culminate in the "Leaders". Essentially, the Q1 was the consequence of the largest boiler that could be accommodated on the minimum practical chassis - 6 wheels - and still be useable in mainline service. Bullied used a 6-wheel chassis because fewer wheels would have restricted the boiler to the point that it was not worth the effort. The lack of running plates and the curious boiler cladding were the result of trying to keep the overall weight down, enabling a bigger boiler. Bullied preferred not to have carrying axles if he could avoid them - in his view, all axles should be driven. Result? The Q1.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What were useful in Britain were the mechanical coal pushers that brought forward coal from the back of the tender. That LMS "Coronations" had them but I don't know which other classes may have had them.
I have a feeling that the LMS Garratts had coal pushers, but they had a tendency to be unreliable.
I fancy you will find that the LMS Garratts (which were totally ruined by the Derby traditionalists) had rotary coal bunkers (a Beyer-Peacock 'special') rather than coal pushers. They were apt to jam, owing to an accumulation of small coal in the inaccessible space under the bunker.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Gresley's comment on the Q1 was allegedly 'My God, Oliver, where do you put the key?'
Can I put in a plug for CP's Royal Hudsons? They look stunning, and go like the clappers. Mind you, the Jubilees were pretty fine too.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Re. the LMS Garratts: this website states that "Getting the coal from the bunker forward proved to be "a challenge". Two experiments were done to improve the forwarding of coal. One locomotive of the main batch, no 4986, received a rotary bunker from the start. Steam operated coal pushers were installed on no 4996. As the latter did not prove adequate rotary coal bunkers were fitted to all but two members of the class from 1931 onwards".
[ 17. December 2015, 17:38: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
I think that the CPR "Jubilees" wheel arrangement was unique to 20th century North American railroading. Regarding four drivers, the Atlantic type, 4-4-2, was quite popular prior to the advent of the Pacific, 4-6-2, in the 1910s. The Milwaukee Road, however, had Alco build a magnificent Atlantic in 1935 to power its "Hiawatha" speedsters between Chicago and Minneapolis-St. Paul, a distance of about 400 miles. The Hiawatha could make this trip in 6 1/2 hours, and the Atlantic was capable of hauling a five-car train at more than 100 mph. The Milwaukee Road competed with Burlington and the Chicago & Northwestern on this route.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Regarding self-stokers on British locomotives, the film that I saw regarding how to stoke showed the coal supply as consisting of widely varying sizes of coal, which required the fireman to break up the pieces to manageable size. Self-stokers on North American locomotives had to use fairly uniform sizes of coal (about 2 inches in diameter). Generally, this was soft, or bituminous coal, though I know that the Lackawanna advertised its used of hard, anthracite coal (the "route of the Phoebe Snow" whose dress was always white, because she traveled the route of the Anthracite).
It was simply impossible for a fireman to stoke the fires on the larger North American locomotives at a rate that would sustain the required boiler pressure and steaming rates. In fact, some of the smaller hand-fired locomotives had to use two firemen to keep up with the demand.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The Jubilees were built as 4-4-2 after the Milwaukee Road pattern, but with a larger firebox which lengthened them into 4-4-4's. Western Coal, as my grandfather would tell you, was soft and bituminous.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
... What were useful in Britain were the mechanical coal pushers that brought forward coal from the back of the tender. That LMS "Coronations" had them but I don't know which other classes may have had them. ...
I have heard that the later Britannias that had bigger tenders also had them. The Duke of Gloucester in its present incarnation has one but I don't know whether it always did.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
SPk: I did not know that the Jubilees were sort of a Hiawatha on steroids. Impressive locos though. There are many accounts of North American locos exceeding 120 mph, but none were ever measured with a dyno car and, thus, honors have to be accorded the A4 Mallard (which was a magnificent locomotive). The DR's streamlined Pacifics were also mighty fast, and the record run in Germany was on a level grade, not a falling grade, as was the case for the Mallard's run.
For years, claims were made for a PRR E2 Atlantic, number 7002, which supposedly hit 127 mph on a stretch of track in Ohio hauling the Pennsylvania Limited in 1905. This claim is now considered fairly dubious, but it does show how fast the Atlantics were, even in 1905.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
<snip> honors have to be accorded the A4 Mallard (which was a magnificent locomotive). <snip>
Happy flashback to NCIS!
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Naval Criminal Investigative Service? Surely not. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Here is "Bittern", "Mallard's" sister, going well on a test run a couple of years ago. Sadly she's now out of service as her boiler certificate has expired.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Here is "Bittern", "Mallard's" sister, going well on a test run a couple of years ago. Sadly she's now out of service as her boiler certificate has expired.
She doesn't actually appear to be going at any great speed!
I did travel behind a very dingy looking A4 in c 1962. That was from Grantham to Kings Cross and was the first train journey I can remember. Once we got to London we changed to a DMU to St Albans which I thought wonderful because you could see out the front! That was before blinds were introduced ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Here is "Bittern", "Mallard's" sister, going well on a test run a couple of years ago. Sadly she's now out of service as her boiler certificate has expired.
She doesn't actually appear to be going at any great speed!
Such is the problem with telephoto lenses, I think!
quote:
I did travel behind a very dingy looking A4 in c 1962. That was from Grantham to Kings Cross and was the first train journey I can remember. Once we got to London we changed to a DMU to St Albans which I thought wonderful because you could see out the front! That was before blinds were introduced
I used to go to school on those DMUs every day from 1964-71. We used to love sitting behind the driver and watch him drive the train, although sometimes they drew the blinds so as to be private. Sometimes we rode in the back carriage and looked out of the rear windows instead. Later on they refurbished the units and took out the windows into the cabs.
In the late 60s they were building the M1 motorway beside the line. Imagine our surprise to come out of Elstree Tunnel one afternoon and see a German V2 rocket standing on the site of what was to become Scratchwood Services! It was of course a film prop from the nearby studios.
These units were different to all others as they had hydraulic transmission instead of mechanical. This made them much smoother as there was no great shudder when the driver changed gear. They also had Rolls-Royce engines which we thought was very upmarket! My older sister had been using the same line to go to school, starting off on steam trains but changing to diesel c.1960.
[ 18. December 2015, 16:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
P.S. Never travelled behind an A4 (or seen one in action) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) . "Bittern" was supposed to come here a couple of years ago but was deemed to be out of gauge.
[ 18. December 2015, 16:48: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've travelled behind an A4 doing 112½ mph. It was Sir Nigel Gresley down Stoke Bank south of Grantham in 1959.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
The Leaders, of course, were really Fairlies, but Bullied never admitted the fact!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Strictly speaking, no, as the Leaders had only a single boiler (albeit with an unconventional firebox) whereas Fairlies had a double boiler.
The book I have on articulated steam locomotives would probably classify the Leaders as an updated Kitson-Meyer - a design of double bogie locomotive with a single boiler and with the bogies separated sufficiently for the firebox and ashpan to drop between them.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Here is "Bittern", "Mallard's" sister, going well on a test run a couple of years ago. Sadly she's now out of service as her boiler certificate has expired.
That's a beauty. I'd love to have seen that myself.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Naval Criminal Investigative Service? Surely not.
Indeed, yes! The Mallard is mentioned in several episodes, most poignantly this week.
/End tangent!
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Jealous of you Brits who rode behind steam in the 1960s. The pace of dieselization was such that only the Norfolk & Western and the Grand Trunk Western were still using steam in 1960, the year the passenger service ended. Most passenger trains had been dieselized years before. In my home area, the Chesapeake & Ohio dieselized passenger trains by about 1950. C&O was a coal road, like the N&W, and ran railroad car ferries across Lake Michigan which were steam powered and coal fired and built as late as 1952. One survivor still makes daily crossings in the summer from Ludington, Michigan to Manitowoc, Wisconsin.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
Jealous of you Brits who rode behind steam in the 1960s. The pace of dieselization was such that only the Norfolk & Western and the Grand Trunk Western were still using steam in 1960, the year the passenger service ended. Most passenger trains had been dieselized years before. In my home area, the Chesapeake & Ohio dieselized passenger trains by about 1950. C&O was a coal road, like the N&W, and ran railroad car ferries across Lake Michigan which were steam powered and coal fired and built as late as 1952. One survivor still makes daily crossings in the summer from Ludington, Michigan to Manitowoc, Wisconsin.
We were lucky then and we are lucky now: I think Britain has more preserved railway, both lines and mileage, than anywhere else and nowhere is the enthusiasm stronger. My concern is that those operating and especially maintaining the railways are getting on in years. I wonder if the preserved railways could get business-like and recruit a few apprentice technicians for locomotives, carriages and permanent way?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The skills and initiative involved should be very, very marketable.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Some do: see here and here. But I imagine that only the "big boys" could do this.
I'm very pleased to hear this!
I don't think you would need more than to be a "big boy" and I wouldn't describe the Mid-Hants in that way. You would however need a FE college with a good engineering department before considering it. I am sure other railways could arrange similar but it takes commitment and that takes money: I suppose it'll have for me to win the Lottery to change a few minds.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Kitson-Meyer- now that's a suggestion you don't see every day! But, of course, many Fairlies were built as singles, though you may actually be right in your suggestion!
Either way, the Leaders were wretched engines, whereas the Fairlies are the gift that keeps on giving.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Good point about single Fairlies (an example in the UK would be Taliesin, the new-build on the Ffestiniog), but you would note that Fairlies had one boiler barrel per engine bogie, whereas the Leaders had one boiler between the two power bogies, a la Kitson Meyer.
To be fair to Bullied and the Leaders, a large part of the problem was that Bullied was a lone voice and one that was largely out of favour at the time. BR were not interested in the Leader concept - they were pursuing Riddles' views to build the Standards - and the Leader concept in no way fitted in with the Standard Steam program. As a result, there was no will to develop the design to the point that it worked properly. I believe that the use of sleeve valves was unhelpful; a feature that had never been made to work on locomotive steam in this country. You might note that Bullied's subsequent work on these lines (the Turf Burner for the Irish railway system) used conventional piston valves on its power bogies.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
In the end, of course, Bob Fairlie's concept, shorn of the straitjacket of steam technology, carried all before it; almost every diesel locomotive in the world has a body-mounted prime mover and a pair of power bogies.
The stablity of the single Fairlies was legendary; on the Maine two-footers they were reported to have run at mile-a-minute speeds, and even if that was not literally true they were certainly very steady runners.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Interesting. I had thought that the Fairley type had a number of inherent flaws compared to either a Mallet or a Garrett, such as an increasing problem with carrying fuel as the size of the locomotive increased and the problem of crew accommodation as the size increased. From either of those points of view, I would have thought that the Garrett offered a better layout.
Saying which, as I understand it, the USA made little or no use of the Garrett layout, any more than this country used the Mallet. Are there any transatlantic views on this question?
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
... The stablity of the single Fairlies was legendary; on the Maine two-footers they were reported to have run at mile-a-minute speeds, and even if that was not literally true they were certainly very steady runners.
I'm intrigued by that, and would be interested to know more about a railway and a development I know nothing about. Fairlies of course are familiar from Wales, but I'm completely ignorant about the railways of Maine. Unless you mean something different by what you've said, nobody here has habitually run anything on 2' gauge at that sort of speed.
Reciprocating steam engines turn over relatively slowly. They can therefore drive directly. One cycle of the piston translates into one revolution of the wheels. This has the advantage that there's no intermediate stepping down in the transmission which wastes energy, and is mechanically complicated, but the disadvantage that the size of the driving wheels replace any sort of gearing. There's a trade off between speed and power. Express engines have big wheels. Freight engines have small ones.
As far as British practice is concerned, there have been very few examples of steam engines with gearing. Most have been a bit in the freak category. Furthermore, anything designed to enable a reciprocating steam engine to drive powered bogies at speed would have to step the transmission up rather than down. If such a thing has ever been done successfully, it must have been somewhere else in a very different engineering tradition.
The BR 9Fs with only 5' wheels were conventional reciprocating locomotives designed for slow heavy freight use. To everyone's surprise, including those that drove them, they were, nevertheless, recorded at up to 90 mph on occasions. It was a surprising ability of a well designed engine. They weren't designed to do that. 5' would be too big a diameter for a pair of powered bogies.
There aren't really any other examples of small wheeled locomotives here comfortably able to run at those speeds. By all reports, the GWR 47xxs more or less reached their uncomfortable limits at 60-65 mph. The Somerset and Dorset 2-8-0s were pressed into passenger use in summer, but not at speed and their bearings could not really take it.
The large numbers of assorted 0-6-0s that were used on passenger trains rarely lumbered along at much over about 50 mph.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
To be fair to Bullied and the Leaders, a large part of the problem was that Bullied was a lone voice and one that was largely out of favour at the time. BR were not interested in the Leader concept - they were pursuing Riddles' views to build the Standards - and the Leader concept in no way fitted in with the Standard Steam program. As a result, there was no will to develop the design to the point that it worked properly.
I agree that his turf burning locos in Ireland moved things on a bit, but I'm afraid I'm in the camp that counts Bulleid in the "bit of a loose cannon" category.
He managed to get express passenger locos built in the middle of wartime prohibitions of constructing that category by counting them as "mixed traffic" (ahem), most of his highest profile engines did better (IMO) when someone else had rebuilt them and got rid of the "innovative" bits, and the Leader shows vision, but a complete lack of common sense - it might have worked better (to link the earlier part of the thread) if he'd fitted either a mechanical stoker or oil firing.
As it was the poor old fireman just had to get melted. If I won the lottery, I might just build one to see what it could do with the kinks ironed out.
OTOH, all is forgiven for his Tavern Car alone...
Having said all that, he seems to attract far more plaudits than brickbats. For a designer seemingly doomed for all time for the "crime" of not being Gresley, I'd love someone to salvage the reputation of Thompson.
This thread is really making me want to get back on the footplate....
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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