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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Steam Locomotive Restoration
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You cannot be serious ... Nice idea, but people hated them: you couldn't see out of them.
Point taken, but how often do you look out of a pub? Anyway, they did have headroom unlike his double-deck trains. Believe it or not a small*, dedicated and (I think) slightly unhinged group is trying to renovate four of these carriages.
*They would have to be small, to get in and out of the things. Remember that the UK loading gauge is pretty puny.
[ 21. December 2015, 10:49: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
You think our standard loading gauge is small? Try the Glasgow Subway: here and here.
[ 21. December 2015, 11:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You cannot be serious ... Nice idea, but people hated them: you couldn't see out of them.
Point taken, but how often do you look out of a pub? Anyway, they did have headroom unlike his double-deck trains. Believe it or not a small*, dedicated and (I think) slightly unhinged group is trying to renovate four of these carriages.
*They would have to be small, to get in and out of the things. Remember that the UK loading gauge is pretty puny.
Is it not 2 small, dedicated and slightly unhinged group trying to do 2 each? It's complicated anyway...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I'd love someone to salvage the reputation of Thompson.
Any designer who takes a magnificent locomotive like this and turns it into this monstrosity deserves all the bad reputation he has coming.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I'd love someone to salvage the reputation of Thompson.
Any designer who takes a magnificent locomotive like this and turns it into this monstrosity deserves all the bad reputation he has coming.
Is that because of what he did to the class? Or because it was Great Northern he did it to first.
There are all sorts of claims and counterclaims about the A1/1s, but it is reasonably likely that if more of them had been rebuilt (and the oldest, eg Great Northern, needed rebuilding or scrapping anyway) then they wouldn't have been withdrawn before the more numerous unrebuilt examples.
AIUI, BR policy was to withdraw the smaller classes first, leaving the larger fleets operational - regardless of relative merit. The A1/1 rebuild solved some of the problems with the earlier class, created others, but was IIRC relatively popular with the crews if not the enthusiasts.
Anyway, he did design the B1, which was both good looking and a performer in most eyes.
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Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
3 other words which occurred to me after the edit window:
conjugated valve gear
Wartime restrictions on maintenance meant it had to go for the sake of fitter sanity. Gresley wouldn't/couldn't/didn't do it. Thompson got on with it.
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Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
If the LNER had had the optical alignment methods which were brought from Swindon in BR days, then the conjugated valve gears would have proved less problematic.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
If the LNER had had the optical alignment methods which were brought from Swindon in BR days, then the conjugated valve gears would have proved less problematic.
That all makes sense, because Harry Holcroft, who devised the conjugated valve-gear in the first place was trained on the GWR before working with Gresley (and on the Southern, which also had many 3-cylinder locomotives).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
If the LNER had had the optical alignment methods which were brought from Swindon in BR days, then the conjugated valve gears would have proved less problematic.
*aiming for Geek knowledge of the Year(TM)*
the heavy general overhaul cycle mandated by Doncaster for LNER locomotives fitted with conjugated valve gear was intervals of 40,000 miles. Haymarket MPD, for reasons best known to itself, brought that interval down unilaterally to 30,000 miles and apparently achieved measurable gains in performance/decreases in failure. No one (to my knowledge) has ever got to the bottom of why no other MPD followed suit.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Is that because of what he did to the class? Or because it was Great Northern he did it to first.
He took a beautiful locomotive and deliberately made it as ugly as possible because he didn't like the man who had designed it.
As for the merits of the conversion, I think it says it all that as soon as Peppercorn took over he completely redesigned the new A1s so that they would be both excellent and elegant machines.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Is that because of what he did to the class? Or because it was Great Northern he did it to first.
He took a beautiful locomotive and deliberately made it as ugly as possible because he didn't like the man who had designed it.
As for the merits of the conversion, I think it says it all that as soon as Peppercorn took over he completely redesigned the new A1s so that they would be both excellent and elegant machines.
The alternative viewpoint is that Thompson and Gresley were two sides of the same coin - autocratic perfectionists. Gresley throughout his career seems to have had a Brunel-like habit of dismissing any improvements to his engines which he hadn't thought of. If GN hadn't been rebuilt it was fit only for the scrapheap.
Get CJ Allen* on the 1945 locomotive trials - Great Northern vs Sir Ralph Wedgwood (single chimney A4). Dead heat in most things except where GN edged it. Pound for pound the A1/1 was better at its job (never mind the aesthetics) than anything the LNER/BR(E/NE/Sc) had apart from the double chimney A4 *at the time.*
The A2/2 was also an improvement on the P2 in terms of fuel consumption over the same mileage.
*Assuming you haven't already.
Apologies to uninterested onlookers - I should have known better. There are corners of the internet which get into 40 page sagas when Thompson is mentioned. I'm not even an LNER fan, I've just always felt a bit sorry for him. Best man for the CME job when he got it and trying to sort out the LNER's locomotive stud with a war on and a succession of personal tragedies.
I've defended the A1/1 and the A2/2 - the B1 and K1 IMO don't need defending. He knew what he was doing, and only the near deification of Gresley (who, in fairness, must have neared deserving that right until the moment he threw it all away by leaving Swindon ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) has coloured the way he's remembered.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Another factor with locomotive designers/CMEs is that some are locomotive men while others are railway men, who concentrate on keeping the locomotives out of the 'shops and on the road. They have little romance about them and know that it's rolling stock that earns revenue, not the motive power. That is where Thompson, Riddles and Collett of the Great Western are. Churchward, Collett's predecessor, was half-and-half: while Dean's deputy he was an experimenter but once the formula for reliable, powerful locomotives had been defined, he became a refiner. Other innovators at Swindon had to move on to see any of their ideas come to fruition, such as Holcroft but most notably Sir William Stanier who was GWR through and through, but modernised the LMS out of all recognition in about five years!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Something to bear in mind in relation to the Gresley-Holcroft conjugated gear is an observation made by Kenneth Cook who moved from Swindon to Doncaster to take over what had been Peppercorn's chair - thanks to the Zeiss optical equipment, the GWR scrapped at tighter tolerances than the LNER manufactured. It is little wonder that most LNER locomotives clanked noticeably when running.
Note also that it was Cook who solved the A4's perennial problems with the inside big end by substituting the GWR equivalent.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Yes, Britain has, per capita, probably the finet collection of preserved steam. I would love to travel on some of the British steam lines, and maybe that will be possible (on the same trip I visit Belfast and feed my Titanica obsession). On that trip I also want to go to York. The Minster and the railway museum -- I suppose that's heaven on earth!
In the US, while there is a fair amount of smaller preserved types (such as 2-8-0 freight locos) only in the last 30 or so years have the larger types become operable again. Removed from city parks, they are now in steam, or soon will be, again.
Some of the more notable examples of the bigger locos are:
1. Pere Marquette 1225, a 1941 Berkshire (2-8-4)
2. Nickel Plate 765, 1944 Berkshire
3. Union Pacific 844, 1944 Northern (4-8-4)
4. Union Pacific 3985, 1943 Challenger (4-6-6-4)
5. Southern Pacific 4449, 1941 Northern (Daylight)
6. Milwaukee Road 261, 1944 Northern
7. Santa Fe 3751, 1927 Northern
8. Norfolk & Western 611, 1950 Northern
AND . . .
9. Union Pacific 4014, 1941 Big Boy (4-8-8-4)
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've defended the A1/1 and the A2/2 - the B1 and K1 IMO don't need defending.
That's not what Gerry Fiennes thought when he only had B1s to run front-line express services on the Great Eastern main line c.1950 (together with the old B12s and Gresley's B17s, of course). He snapped up the Britannias as soon as he heard about them and, for a while, the line became the fastest in Britain (2 hours to Norwich: fastest [electric] train today takes 1h40m).
Mind you, the "Brits" had their teething problems (flexing coupling rods and driving wheels which worked loose on their axles), so for a while some Bulleid Light Pacifics were drafted in. That would have been a sight for the spotters!
[ 21. December 2015, 17:21: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
That's not an entirely fair comparison. In BR terms, the B1 was only a class 5, comparable to the ex LMS class 5. A Britannia was a class 7. A fairer comparator is whether an engine crew would rather have a B1 or a Sandringham.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
If the LNER had had the optical alignment methods which were brought from Swindon in BR days, then the conjugated valve gears would have proved less problematic.
*aiming for Geek knowledge of the Year(TM)*
the heavy general overhaul cycle mandated by Doncaster for LNER locomotives fitted with conjugated valve gear was intervals of 40,000 miles. Haymarket MPD, for reasons best known to itself, brought that interval down unilaterally to 30,000 miles and apparently achieved measurable gains in performance/decreases in failure. No one (to my knowledge) has ever got to the bottom of why no other MPD followed suit.
Not possessing the mountain of knowledge or the erudition of the other posters here, I can only guess at the answer to the question. Typically, I believe the shedmaster would have been responsible for costs incurred at his depot and an early overhaul was a major expense to be avoided if at all possible. At Haymarket, I would guess that the various costs of covering premature failures on the east coast main line were likely rather high, making the early overhaul cost-effective. (40,000 miles seems rather low for a general overhaul and sounds more like a light repair. It's only 50 return trips to London).
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
If the LNER had had the optical alignment methods which were brought from Swindon in BR days, then the conjugated valve gears would have proved less problematic.
*aiming for Geek knowledge of the Year(TM)*
the heavy general overhaul cycle mandated by Doncaster for LNER locomotives fitted with conjugated valve gear was intervals of 40,000 miles. Haymarket MPD, for reasons best known to itself, brought that interval down unilaterally to 30,000 miles and apparently achieved measurable gains in performance/decreases in failure. No one (to my knowledge) has ever got to the bottom of why no other MPD followed suit.
Not possessing the mountain of knowledge or the erudition of the other posters here, I can only guess at the answer to the question. Typically, I believe the shedmaster would have been responsible for costs incurred at his depot and an early overhaul was a major expense to be avoided if at all possible. At Haymarket, I would guess that the various costs of covering premature failures on the east coast main line were likely rather high, making the early overhaul cost-effective. (40,000 miles seems rather low for a general overhaul and sounds more like a light repair. It's only 50 return trips to London).
you are of course right, it was the routine not the heavy general. That theory also makes sense re Haymarket, although they were clearly acting on their own initiative.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Typical Scots, wanting to do their own thing! (My wife had better not read this, as she comes from Haggis-land).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Did Haymarket perform what we might call a cost/benefit analysis and conclude that, overall, it cost them less to give the conjugated gear a once-over every 30 000 miles rather than deal with a mounting number of increasingly expensive repairs by leaving it to the 'official' 40 000 miles?
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I have no idea ... But I suspect, in those days, they would merely have thought things through pragmatically. i.e. "We don't want the bl**dy things breaking down on the road, it's such a bother, so we'll get them serviced more frequently". It could be that more frequent maintenance actually reduced the time that locomotives had to spend out of service, as failures (and consequent repairs) were minimised.
But this is all supposition.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Did Haymarket perform what we might call a cost/benefit analysis and conclude that, overall, it cost them less to give the conjugated gear a once-over every 30 000 miles rather than deal with a mounting number of increasingly expensive repairs by leaving it to the 'official' 40 000 miles?
Quite possibly.
I have a book titled "Railway Operating Statistics" by C P Mossop and the first edition is from 1910, for the North Eastern Railway, a notably businesslike and profitable concern.
The edition I have is an early LNER reprint from 1923 and while there is basic stuff it also provides plenty of material for poor sods like me who have to devise KPIs from time to time, and persuade managers that they are worthwhile.
I reckon railways were right at the forefront of this.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Kenneth Cook wrote an Engineering Autobiography after he moved from Swindon to take charge of Darlington and Doncaster. (I believe the book is titled "Swindon Steam"). From the book I infer that Swindon at least had made the move from reactive to preventative maintenance in the 1930's, as Cook speaks of a carefully developed scheme of tracking cards which enabled Swindon to call locomotives in for overhaul, rather than having to wait for them to be delivered.
A significant part of the reason for developing this scheme was to make the workload at Swindon more predictable by ensuring a steady throughput of locomotives for heavy overhaul. A side effect was that it was therefore necessary to build (and overhaul) the locomotives with sufficient care that it was unlikely that they would need significant workshop attention before Swindon called them in. As a consequence, shopping intervals steadily increased at Swindon during the 30's.
Cook subsequently introduced his system to Doncaster and Darlington, almost certainly extending the life of the Gresley pacifics as a result.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I have a book titled "Railway Operating Statistics" by C P Mossop and the first edition is from 1910, for the North Eastern Railway, a notably businesslike and profitable concern.
The edition I have is an early LNER reprint from 1923 and while there is basic stuff it also provides plenty of material for poor sods like me who have to devise KPIs from time to time, and persuade managers that they are worthwhile...
It is wonderful to think that there is a bit of the UK civil service whose performance measurement regime is derived from the work of the NER over a century ago!
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
It is wonderful to think that there is a bit of the UK civil service whose performance measurement regime is derived from the work of the NER over a century ago!
Sssh! I'm trying to keep this a secret!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It is safe with us.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
/tangent
My kids clubbed together and bought me a 4mm/OO model of this (even down to the number) IMHO it must one of the most beautiful locomotives ever. Runs very nicely too.
All I now need are a couple of the right kind of coaches (cash) and a model of the Lyme Regis branch line c 1958 for it to run on (me & time).
tangent/
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Of course said locomotive still exists although you'll have to wait a long time to see it running again.
This is one of the debates about restoration. The Adams 0415 is unique, has been off the rails for 25 years and it doesn't look like she's going to be in steam again soon. When I win the Lottery, and this will probably take the Euromillions, I might open a boilermakers to specialise in preserved steam, as this appears to be the critical factor for so many preserved locos.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Indeed, I'm surprised how many working locos, including ex-Barry wrecks, still have their original boilers. But they won't go on for ever, however much they are welded and retubed.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Deadly sin of Envy alert
Sioni, I'm envious, but after what I've said on this and other threads about personal memories, I'm not sure whether I dare say that we had a holiday in Lyme Regis in 1955. I did not see 30583, but I did see the other two.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Deadly sin of Envy alert
Sioni, I'm envious, but after what I've said on this and other threads about personal memories, I'm not sure whether I dare say that we had a holiday in Lyme Regis in 1955. I did not see 30583, but I did see the other two.
You lucky man!
We had a sort of a holiday in Axminster in 1968 (In know it was then because it coincided with the Mexico Olympics), staying with friends who ran a pub in the town. We did have a day out in Lyme, albeit on the bus ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Indeed, I'm surprised how many working locos, including ex-Barry wrecks, still have their original boilers. But they won't go on for ever, however much they are welded and retubed.
In fairness, it is not disastrous - after all, it was possible to build Tornado from scratch, and the new P2 project is going ahead on the assumption that building another new boiler is perfectly possible. The issue is one of whether the preservation movement can afford it?
One of the attractions of narrow-gauge and miniature steam is that the costs are lower. But even then, the figures are apt to put one in mind of telephone numbers. The skills exist to build new boilers as well as to repair existing ones. Raising the money to pay for those skills is the problem.
And, extending the thought somewhat, it beats me how our American preservationist friends can even contemplate the sorts of costs that they must face. Building a new 250 psi boiler for, say, a Duchess class pacific is expensive. What must it cost constructing a new boiler for a Big Boy?
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Tangentially, based on 30583's history, was The East Kent Railway a Colonel Stephens-run line?
Only today I moved my 1908 SE&CR chair from my parents to our house, rescued/pilfered many years ago from a ditch on the Northiam extension of another Colonel Stephens line....
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Tangentially, based on 30583's history, was The East Kent Railway a Colonel Stephens-run line?
Only today I moved my 1908 SE&CR chair from my parents to our house, rescued/pilfered many years ago from a ditch on the Northiam extension of another Colonel Stephens line....
AG
The East Kent Light Railway was indeed part of Col. Stephen's empire. The East Kent Railway was a major constituent (says Wiki) of the London Chatham and Dover Railway, which in turn became part of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway (the SE&CR) and in 1923 the Southern Railway.
Colonel Stephen would have looked favourably on you reusing a discarded chair!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Pedant (know-all) alert
I think technically, neither the South Eastern nor the London, Chatham and Dover became part of the South East and Chatham. They entered into a Working Arrangement, with the SECR as the vehicle for that arrangement. The two companies continued to exist, behind it, both with their shareholdings. The profits were split on a fixed percentage (from recollection approximately 60/40) between the two companies. They both eventually became part of the Southern at the grouping.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
Important news for all those with lots of money and space and who need a steam locomotive or two. Transnet (was South African Railways) have over 30 steam locomotives for sale, though some are in poor condition. Some are historically very interesting, going back to David Hendrie, who went to the Natal Government Railway from the Highland over a century ago, and many are of British origin. There are two GMA Garratts available, and although there are several preserved already, you simply can't have too many of them. I would take one, but this year's project has to be a new car.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Very tempting, but won't they all be 3' 6", which will mean one can't bring one back and play with it here.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Very tempting, but won't they all be 3' 6", which will mean one can't bring one back and play with it here.
For two reasons. The standard gauge in South Africa is less than standard gauge in Britain but the loading gauge (height and width of stock) is greater than in Britain. That is to say, even if you construct 3' 6" track, your structures will get in the way. Over to you, America.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Sorry, out of luck. We don't have any Cape Gauge lines in North America; all our Narrow Gauge is Three Foot or Two Foot, and the Two Foot is gone.
And a Garratt? I have a lot of time for articulated locomotives, but not Garratts, as they never ran in North America.
If it operated cab-forward and it wasn't built by the Southern Pacific, I'm not interested.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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LA Dave
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# 1397
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Posted
SPK: Have you ever read "Perfecting the American Steam Locomotive"? It is by a retired professor of engineering at, I believe, Texas A&M, and discusses in great detail the development of American (not much about Canada I am afraid) steam locomotives from their origin to the 4-4-0, then the second generation (Consolidateds, Pacifics) and ending with a thorough discussion of the origin of "Superpower" types, most notably the Berkshires and Northerns. There is also a thorough discussion of the big articulated classes. The author makes the point that Mallets before superpower were slow drag engines. The UP Challengers and Big Boys, on the other hand, could haul 100-car freights at 70 mph.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Sorry, out of luck. We don't have any Cape Gauge lines in North America; all our Narrow Gauge is Three Foot or Two Foot, and the Two Foot is gone.
And a Garratt? I have a lot of time for articulated locomotives, but not Garratts, as they never ran in North America.
If it operated cab-forward and it wasn't built by the Southern Pacific, I'm not interested.
Sigh... I was looking forward to someone offering to operate the first Garratt in North America. It's never too late to change the course of history.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
SPK: Have you ever read "Perfecting the American Steam Locomotive"? It is by a retired professor of engineering at, I believe, Texas A&M, and discusses in great detail the development of American (not much about Canada I am afraid) steam locomotives from their origin to the 4-4-0, then the second generation (Consolidateds, Pacifics) and ending with a thorough discussion of the origin of "Superpower" types, most notably the Berkshires and Northerns. There is also a thorough discussion of the big articulated classes. The author makes the point that Mallets before superpower were slow drag engines. The UP Challengers and Big Boys, on the other hand, could haul 100-car freights at 70 mph.
Did the Big Boys go that fast, especially over the mountains? (I know the Challengers did). The N&W Class A's had a good turn of speed, too - and even one of their Y6b's was timed at over 60mph.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Big Boys could reportedly reach 80 mph. The biggest Rocky Mountain grade on the UP, Sherman Hill, has a grade of, I think, 1.5 percent. The summit is over 8,000 feet in elevation.
Obviously, on a long grade, the train would be slower, but the speeds that I mentioned were on level stretches, pulling what were, for the time, massive trains. The Big Boys had a tractive effort of more than 135,000 pounds.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
My recollection is that a Big Boy could if required pull one of the City streamliners to California at a bit over 80. You Tube has videos of a Challenger, 844 and Southern Pacific 4449 all drawing passenger stock at that sort of speed in recent times. Big Boys and Challengers had enormous margins of safety built in. I don't think any other Mallets could safely run at that sort of speed and only the Algerian Garrats of other articulated locos could match them. The drivers of the NSWGR 60 class were too small, although they had the power and balance.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
No, the magnificent home-built A class of the Norfolk & Western were capable of speeds greater than 60 mph (they had 70-inch drivers) and I think (and SPK can confirm) that the Southern Pacific cab-forwards were also capable of those speeds, or at least some classes of them.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Wheel size doesn't appear to be a reliable indicator of maximum possible speed. The British Railways 9F class, which had 5' drivers in a 2-10-0 configuration were designed for heavy freight but could do over 80mph on passenger trains on the East Coast Main and the London to South Wales lines.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Although wheel size is an important factor - think of it as a built in gear ratio - balance and steam passages seem to have been quite important. Whether it was simply their size or what, 9Fs seem to have been very steady on their feet, or should that be wheels.
For speed, though, not only has the steam got to be able to get into the cylinders quickly. The used steam needs to get out of them again and quickly up the chimney. Otherwise, its presence will strangulate what the fresh steam for the next stroke can actually achieve.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
No, the magnificent home-built A class of the Norfolk & Western were capable of speeds greater than 60 mph (they had 70-inch drivers) and I think (and SPK can confirm) that the Southern Pacific cab-forwards were also capable of those speeds, or at least some classes of them.
Agreed that they were sound and well designed locos, but there's quite a difference between running safely at 60 to 65, and at over 80.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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