|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Boston Unitarians and the Fatherhood of God
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I'm sorry, I confused things by giving a link to a federated church (although your replies on this topic were also interesting), I was wondering what is the point of being a Christian congregation in the UU (as a denomination.. or whatever it is that you'd call it).
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was wondering what is the point of being a Christian congregation in the UU (as a denomination.. or whatever it is that you'd call it).
I suppose, having followed the thread, that if your theology says your church stops at the limit of your own congregation, then you might simply see continuing within the UU as a legacy primarily, but also useful for some weight of numbers/topcover/whatever, even though you don't share much with the other congregations.
In some ways a bit like being an independent store that's a member of a buying group like Euronics, for example.
Don't know, just musing - seems to work for them.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm sorry, I confused things by giving a link to a federated church (although your replies on this topic were also interesting), I was wondering what is the point of being a Christian congregation in the UU (as a denomination.. or whatever it is that you'd call it).
A lot of Christian UUs these days wonder the same thing, I'll admit. Some of them appreciate the historic Christian witness of earlier Unitarians, even though it is no longer widely held across the denomination. Some of them find their personal religious orientation, although essentially Christian, too heterodox to be easily accepted in other Christian sects but welcome as one more "flavor" in the diverse blend of spiritual orientations that comprises today's typical UU church. Some of them see their Christian understanding as being complemented or supplemented by religious insights from beyond the Christian tradition, which are welcome in UU churches but not in some of the more traditional Christian ones. Where a lot of these UU Christians are gathered under one roof, what you get is a UU Christian congregation.
There is a UU Christian website ( uuchristian.org ) that you might enjoy exploring. A lot of people seem to like the prayer and "virtual monastery" sections in particular. I think you might see from surfing around there that the things that distinguish Unitarian or Universalist Christians from other Protestants are not much more dramatic in practice than, say, the things that distinguish Anglicans from Presbyterians or Methodists from Lutherans.
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was wondering what is the point of being a Christian congregation in the UU (as a denomination.. or whatever it is that you'd call it).
I suppose, having followed the thread, that if your theology says your church stops at the limit of your own congregation, then you might simply see continuing within the UU as a legacy primarily, but also useful for some weight of numbers/topcover/whatever, even though you don't share much with the other congregations.
In some ways a bit like being an independent store that's a member of a buying group like Euronics, for example.
Don't know, just musing - seems to work for them.
Yes, for a few of our churches the denominational affiliation is probably more a matter of history and circumstance than present-day identity. That's possible because the polity is still very congregational and the denominational structure is as a loose association of autonomous but collaborative congregations, rather than a top-down hierarchy. That's even reflected in the name of the denomination: it's the Unitarian Universalist Association, not the Unitarian Universalist Church.
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
fausto, thank you very much for your informative posts. The ecclesial history of King's Chapel is interesting.
Wandering through Boston the other week, I speculated on the naming of the pre-eminent Episcopalian Church in the midst of this heavily Unitarian environment: TRINITY, Copley Square... a gesture of, shall we say, three fingers up to those of non-Trinitarian persuasion.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
fausto, thank you very much for your informative posts. The ecclesial history of King's Chapel is interesting.
Wandering through Boston the other week, I speculated on the naming of the pre-eminent Episcopalian Church in the midst of this heavily Unitarian environment: TRINITY, Copley Square... a gesture of, shall we say, three fingers up to those of non-Trinitarian persuasion.
Oh, I don't think so. Phillips Brooks was on very good terms with his Unitarian colleages. And for their part, they knew perfectly well who was heterodox and who wasn't.
On the other hand, the sculpture of the chambered nautilus that was recently installed in the pediment of St. Paul's Cathedral during its renovation -- that caused some heartburn, but among the more traditional 'Piskies, not the "if-it-ain't-broke-fix-it-anyway" UUs. Maybe because it wasn't a more overtly Christian symbol, maybe because it is just plain double-ugly, or maybe because it recalls the local Unitarian poet Oliver Wendell Holmes and his ode to leaving the past behind more vividly than anything Anglican.
The nautilus: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/01/nautilus-st-pauls-episcopal-church_n_4702350.html
Holmes: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173644
[ 29. June 2015, 19:49: Message edited by: fausto ]
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Oh I don't know, that's quite attractive compared to some of the things we put up outside churches.
That said, it does seem a bit odd that UU churches would be upset at other churches using "less Christian" symbols.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh I don't know, that's quite attractive compared to some of the things we put up outside churches.
That said, it does seem a bit odd that UU churches would be upset at other churches using "less Christian" symbols.
You misunderstand me. UUs (at least, the ones who recognize the reference) are chuckling. It's Episcopalian traditionalists who are grousing.
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Wandering through Boston the other week, I speculated on the naming of the pre-eminent Episcopalian Church in the midst of this heavily Unitarian environment: TRINITY, Copley Square... a gesture of, shall we say, three fingers up to those of non-Trinitarian persuasion.
Trinity Church is one of the colonial parishes of the city (the building is mid-Nineteenth Century), and it was founded in 1733. That's well before Unitarianism was a solidly organized or fleshed out enterprise in New England. That's not to say, however, that there weren't some "liberals" floating around at the time!
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Wandering through Boston the other week, I speculated on the naming of the pre-eminent Episcopalian Church in the midst of this heavily Unitarian environment: TRINITY, Copley Square... a gesture of, shall we say, three fingers up to those of non-Trinitarian persuasion.
Trinity Church is one of the colonial parishes of the city (the building is mid-Nineteenth Century), and it was founded in 1733. That's well before Unitarianism was a solidly organized or fleshed out enterprise in New England. That's not to say, however, that there weren't some "liberals" floating around at the time!
I confess my comment was purely (wickedly and humorously) conjecture on my part, with neither offense nor inclusion of actual historical content intended. In advance of my recent travels, I'd read a little about the faith life of pre- and post-Revolutionary Boston, which is why I found the stories around King's Chapel interesting.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
|
Posted
In Cambridge, just outside Boston, you have the joy of First Parish in Cambridge (UU) and First Church in Cambridge (UCC) about a quarter-mile from one another, both claiming to have been founded in 1636, with Christ Church (Episcopal) in between (1759). They're both, of course, correct in that they're the two descendants of the original church in Cambridge—although of course you can tell who won in the initial split by the fact that the UUs and Episcopalians are on either side of the old town burying ground, while the (then) orthodox Congregationalists had to move up the street.
Most towns in New England (especially in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire) have a town green featuring "First Church of _____" that once served as the sole meeting house for the Church gathered in that town and the seat of the Town Meeting as well. Whether they're run by the UCC or UUs now is split, as you could find by Googling "First Church Massachusetts."
I've always been a bit curious to know how a minister is trained and called to one of the two Unitarian post-Anglican parishes. They're probably not using that prayer book in their field ed site placements anywhere else!
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
I've always been a bit curious to know how a minister is trained and called to one of the two Unitarian post-Anglican parishes. They're probably not using that prayer book in their field ed site placements anywhere else!
They might raid other denominations. King's Chapel's assistant minister is ordained in the United Church of Christ but raised Catholic. The senior minister also appears to be ordained in the United Church of Christ (and won a scripture reading prize while at Harvard Divinity).
--------------------
spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
I've always been a bit curious to know how a minister is trained and called to one of the two Unitarian post-Anglican parishes. They're probably not using that prayer book in their field ed site placements anywhere else! [/QB]
Unitarian ministers are required to hold M. Div. degrees from an accredited divinity school. They receive much the same training as ministers in other Protestant denominations.
The previous senior minister at King's Chapel, Earl Holt, was a graduate of the UU-affiliated Starr King seminary (which is a member school of the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, CA), and came to Kings Chapel after 27 years serving the First Unitarian Church of St. Louis. The current minister, Joy Fallon, took her M. Div. at Harvard.
I imagine many UU ministers might find the routine of conducting worship according to the prescribed forms of the BCP to be a welcome relief, compared to the challenge of having to gin up a new order of worship out of thin air each week!
[ 13. July 2015, 17:33: Message edited by: fausto ]
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Having got your MDiv, what do you have to convince other people that you don't believe that the others do, to be accepted as a Unitarian minister?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Having got your MDiv, what do you have to convince other people that you don't believe that the others do, to be accepted as a Unitarian minister?
I don't understand your question.
There's quite a broad variety of beliefs among Unitarians, not only among the ministers but also among the laity. If you're a minister trying to persuade a UU congregation to call you, it's probably not as important that you believe what they do, as that you are able to serve all of them respectfully in the variety of beliefs they hold.
In my (limited) observation, there seem to be a lot more Christians (as well as a lot more non-Christians who are nevertheless respectful of Christianity), among the UU clergy than the UU laity.
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
What I meant by the question is this. If a person has trained alongside students who hold more conventionally 'orthodox' views, and has taken the same exams as they have, to be appointed to be a Unitarian minister, do they have to convince the congregation that they don't have any sneaking trinitarian tendencies, e.g. that they are fully convinced that Arius was right? Or does no one ask that question? Do congregations assume the person wouldn't be applying if he or she believed Jesus was Son of God rather than a great teacher?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
At least in the US (I don't know about Britain), the narrow christological question of Trinitarianism versus Unitarianism is no longer a current issue in most of the denomination. (Many historians would argue that it never was, and that it always troubled outside critics more than our own congregants.) The Unitarians and Universalists merged into a single denomination in 1961, and there were (and still are) both Unitarian and Trinitarian Universalists in the merged denomination. (For exaample: http://www.firstuniversalist.net/ ) A more troublesome challenge, beginning in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, has been finding ways for non-theistic Humanists and theists of all persuasions to worship together. Typically that conflict is resolved by worship that emphasizes shared moral and ethical values rather than doctrinal and/or cosmological propositions.
[ 14. July 2015, 12:21: Message edited by: fausto ]
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
... A more troublesome challenge, beginning in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, has been finding ways for non-theistic Humanists and theists of all persuasions to worship together. Typically that conflict is resolved by worship that emphasizes shared moral and ethical values rather than doctrinal and/or cosmological propositions.
I'd have thought a more fundamental challenge would be how a non-theist would worship or why they should want to. Before whom do they consider they are bowing down?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd have thought a more fundamental challenge would be how a non-theist would worship or why they should want to. Before whom do they consider they are bowing down?
Well some look more for community not that UUs are very good at bowing anyway. My local UU church has both a Sunday morning discussion group and two Sunday services [one in Summer] (those going to the discussion group can, but don't necessarily do, attend the second service). Standard service has music including congregational singing, welcome, lighting the chalice to start the formal part of the service, joys and concerns when congregants and minister voice these (anniversaries, births, deaths, illnesses, recoveries, ups and downs, national/international events) followed with a candle lighting, a sermon, finishes with the chalice being doused, everyone breaks for coffee and discussion, and once a month, lunch at the church.
--------------------
spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
... A more troublesome challenge, beginning in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, has been finding ways for non-theistic Humanists and theists of all persuasions to worship together. Typically that conflict is resolved by worship that emphasizes shared moral and ethical values rather than doctrinal and/or cosmological propositions.
I'd have thought a more fundamental challenge would be how a non-theist would worship or why they should want to. Before whom do they consider they are bowing down?
Not before whom, but before what. (Or I could be droll and say Plato and Marcus Aurelius.) They affirm and celebrate values, principles and ideals. Some of them might say that the "God" whom theists worship is a figurative personification of the same principles and ideals, and worship "God" as a figure in that sense without concern for whether "He" literally exists.
[ 14. July 2015, 15:58: Message edited by: fausto ]
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Or does no one ask that question? Do congregations assume the person wouldn't be applying if he or she believed Jesus was Son of God rather than a great teacher?
Is it correct to say that the Unitarians are/were Arians - in the sense of denying the deity of Christ? I thought the idea was that they were modalists - in the sense of seeing Father, Son and Holy Spirit as aspects of one God.
Or maybe there are lots of different opinons in Unitarianism, it seems rather a free-for-all.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Or does no one ask that question? Do congregations assume the person wouldn't be applying if he or she believed Jesus was Son of God rather than a great teacher?
Is it correct to say that the Unitarians are/were Arians - in the sense of denying the deity of Christ? I thought the idea was that they were modalists - in the sense of seeing Father, Son and Holy Spirit as aspects of one God.
Or maybe there are lots of different opinons in Unitarianism, it seems rather a free-for-all.
The "Oneness Pentecostals" are modalists.
The (christological, but not necessarily denominational) "Unitarians" are generally Arians or Socinians.
But christology in the American Unitarian churches has always been fluid and diverse rather than specific and dogmatic. The term "Unitarian" was first applied to them not by themselves as a doctrinal position, but by Calvinist critics who deplored their latitudinarianism. If there is a defining dogma that has remained constant over the years, it is an optimistic view of human nature and a correspondingly somewhat Pelagian soteriology (in contrast to the Augustinian/Calvinist doctrines of total depravity and penal substitution), not a firm christology. It is their optimistic view of human nature that allows for latitude in their christology.
But it also allows for latitude in other beliefs. UUs today place a great deal of importance on their claim to be "non-creedal" and on their affirmation of a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning", and as a result, they often describe themselves as "non-Christian" or "post-Christian" despite their historical roots in liberal Protestantism. My own church still serves Communion (at an open table; baptism not required) from a silver chalice donated in 1701 by William Stoughton, a parishioner who was also the chief justice of the Salem witch trials. Today the members of our "earth-centered spirituality covenant group" are some of our most enthusiastic communicants, happy to get the last laugh on the old judge.
[ 15. July 2015, 13:04: Message edited by: fausto ]
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Fausto wrote:
quote:
The (christological, but not necessarily denominational) "Unitarians" are generally Arians or Socinians.
Interestingly, some christological unitarians, with no connection to UUs or other denominational Unitarians, still go by that name.
I can't help but think that this causes a bit of confusion, and that the biblical unitarians are, intentionally or not, piggybacking on the more high-profile reputation of the UUs.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Piggybacking? Not sure what you mean by that.
Well, for example, if I've heard of the UUs, maybe by driving past a UU church or reading that Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian(debatable, but it's a common idea), and I'm curious about the Unitarian view on things, I might go home and do a google on "unitarians", and find the "biblical unitarian" website.
So, at least in that instance, the Biblican Unitarians are kind of getting free traffic from the high-profile of the denominational Unitarians, even though the denominational Unitarians aren't really preaching the same thing at all.
(For the record, when I googled "unitarians", all the top sites seemed to be about UUs or other liberal denominational groups, but when I did "unitarians and the bible", the "Bible Unitarian" site was third from the top.)
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
All that said, "unitarian" is a completely logical word to describe some person or group with a non-trinitarian chirstology, so it isn't as if the Bible Unitarians are really misappropriating anything from the UUs.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I suppose.... but (whispers) I don't think the UUs are particularly high profile, myself. In my experience most people say "the who the what?" Rather as they do for my own denomination. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
|
Posted
I would say the evidence points strongly to Jefferson being Unitarian by the end of his life at a minimum. For instance in a letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, 8 January 1825, he writes:
quote:
I am anxious to see the doctrine of one god commenced in our state. but the population of my neighborhood is too slender, and is too much divided into other sects to maintain any one Preacher well. I must therefore be contented to be an Unitarian by myself, altho I know there are many around me who would become so if once they could hear the question fairly stated.
The modern UUs seem to be well aware of the Hungarian Unitarians whose origin predates them and who still exist and are more Christocentric.
--------------------
spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I suppose.... but (whispers) I don't think the UUs are particularly high profile, myself. In my experience most people say "the who the what?" Rather as they do for my own denomination.
Well, I'd say that among the general public, the UUs are higher-profile than the Biblical Unitarians, which is the comparison here. Someone with a layperson's understanding of religion would likley have heard of Unitarianism as a liberal denomination before he heard of Unitarianism as a christological concept.
At least, that was my personal experience. I found out about the christological theory while doing research into the denomination, which I think I heard about via posted advertising at my local Safeway.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Interestingly, some christological unitarians, with no connection to UUs or other denominational Unitarians, still go by that name.
AS do the original ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Church_of_Transylvania
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
Re Jefferson: His beliefs were consistent with those of Unitarians of his time, and even more heterodox than many (his friend and political rival John Adams, for example). His antisupernaturalism and emphasis on reason probably predated the general consensus of Unitarian thought by several generations. He attended Joseph Priestly's church when he was in Philadelphia, and he wrote in one letter that "I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its conscience to neither kings or priests, the genuine doctrine of only one God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." Nevertheless, he remained a contributing member of his Anglican/Episcopal parish in Virginia throughout his life.
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Interestingly, some christological unitarians, with no connection to UUs or other denominational Unitarians, still go by that name.
AS do the original ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Church_of_Transylvania
Yeah, but they do identify with the UUs and other contemproary liberal denominational Unitarians. According to that wiki page, they are members of the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists, which includes the UUA and the British Unitarians.
Whereas I don't think that Biblical Unitarian site has any connections with groups like that. I'm not exactly sure what, if any, affiliation they do have.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
The modern UUs seem to be well aware of the Hungarian Unitarians whose origin predates them and who still exist and are more Christocentric.
The congregation which members of my family are affiliated has a partner relationship with a congregation in Budapest. Some members went on an exchange there several years ago and must have been bemused to hear the Bible read from the pulpit.
My family's congregation do celebrate a ritual of Communion, but it is literally a sharing of something to express community - Water, Flower, and even Chocolate Communion (on [St] Valentine's Day) have been known to happen.
As far as big-U vs little-U unitarianism, the old saw I learned was that "Unitarians used to say we believed in one God and no more. Nowadays we believe in one God - more or less."
[ 16. July 2015, 15:54: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If a person has trained alongside students who hold more conventionally 'orthodox' views, and has taken the same exams as they have ...
While I have known some Canadians who have gone south to study at Meadville/Lombard, Starr King, or Harvard, the last ministry candidate from my relatives' congregation attended the same (liberal Catholic Anglican) seminary I now do. When I was considering my options as an undergraduate, I toured a Lutheran seminary, and one of the other prospective students on the tour was a UU lady whose T-shirt was decked out in Goddess insignia.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
As far as big-U vs little-U unitarianism, the old saw I learned was that "Unitarians used to say we believed in one God and no more. Nowadays we believe in one God - more or less."
Adlai Stevenson, who belonged to both Unitarian and Presbyterian churches, once waggishly described Unitarianism as "the belief that there is, at most, one God." But that was when Humanism was at its high point within the denomination and before the environmental movement sparked interest in neo-paganism.
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Interestingly, some christological unitarians, with no connection to UUs or other denominational Unitarians, still go by that name.
AS do the original ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Church_of_Transylvania
Yeah, but they do identify with the UUs and other contemproary liberal denominational Unitarians. According to that wiki page, they are members of the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists, which includes the UUA and the British Unitarians.
They have friendly relations, but they are separate denominations and the "international council" has no real function or authority.
The relationship between Hungarian/Transylvanian Unitarians and North American UUs mostly involves occasional cultural exchanges. During the communist era, American and Canadian Unitarians provided a degree of support to the persecuted Unitarians in Romania and Hungary. For example, a co-worker of mine in Toronto was the granddaughter of the Transylvanian Unitarian bishop. Her parents emigrated to Canada after WWII with the assistance of the Unitarian churches in Montreal and Toronto.
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
|
Posted
This has been a very interesting discussion for me to observe. During the 1990s I was a member of a task force of UU Christians and "continuing" (non-UCC) Congregationalists investigating the possibility of developing a new hymnal for both groups (which never materialized, alas). I had considerable contact with the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship and with the Council of Christian Churches Within the UUA. The former group consists of individuals, both UU and non-UU, and has several thousand members, I would guess. It meets during the UUA General Assembly, and produces a very fine periodical,The Unitarian Universalist Christian, that addresses theological and ecclesiastical issues of interest to UU Christians. The latter group comprises some 25 UU churches that self-identify as Christian, most of them in New England. There are folk who are involved in both organizations, which almost (but not quite) function as one movement. In addition, there other UU parishes that, as noted above, are "federated" with churches of other denominations; they would consider themselves Christian but are not tied to the Council.
The very christocentric Unitarian Church of Hungary has been mentioned above, but no one has spoken of the Independent (Unitarian) Presbyterians of Ireland and Northern Ireland, who also maintain a decidedly Christian identity. I think both of these groups could be said to be (within their own unique cultural distinctives) Reformed churches with an Arian theology.
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
|
Posted
I would add: Some of the "federated" UU churches are curious creatures indeed. Many of these were formed during and after World War I, when many small-town New England churches saw dwindling congregations and were struggling to maintain their buildings plus salaries for their ministers. These federations, which took various forms, were a logical solution. Each local society could continue to function, hold its own treasury, etc., while sharing one or two buildings, uniting women's and youth groups, and sharing a pastor. As a result, some of the configurations that developed were a bit odd, e.g.: Congregational-Methodist-Unitarian (or Universalist), Congregational-Baptist-U, and the strangest one of all, a church in Massachusetts that is Unitarian, Baptist and Quaker(!) [and which has since joined the United Church of Christ as well].
Nothing like covering all your bases! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
Her parents emigrated to Canada after WWII with the assistance of the Unitarian churches in Montreal and Toronto.
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
The very christocentric Unitarian Church of Hungary has been mentioned above, but no one has spoken of the Independent (Unitarian) Presbyterians of Ireland and Northern Ireland, who also maintain a decidedly Christian identity.
The Unitarian Church of Montréal was historically considered relatively traditionalist. It called its first minister from the Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland, and is still legally incorporated as the "Church of the Messiah." The Non-Subscribing Presbyterians, along with the Magyar Unitarians in Hungary and Transylvania are the only ICUU churches not organized on a congregational polity. (Episcopacy seems to have been a feature of Hungarian Protestantism in general: this pdf of a 1922 pamphlet explains that the Hungarian Reformed Church in America chose to align itself with the "Protestant Episcopal Church" because continental Reformed denominations in the US did not have bishops).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Sorry to dig up this old thread, but I just stumbled over Emmanuel Church, Boston which is an Episcopal church, but whose first minister was originally a Unitarian, subsequently had ministers who left to become Unitarian ministers and says that it has a unitarian heritage.
So maybe that is evidence of the intermingling of Unitarians and Episcopalians in the Boston area.
I thought others might be interested...
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Sorry to dig up this old thread, but I just stumbled over Emmanuel Church, Boston which is an Episcopal church, but whose first minister was originally a Unitarian, subsequently had ministers who left to become Unitarian ministers and says that it has a unitarian heritage.
So maybe that is evidence of the intermingling of Unitarians and Episcopalians in the Boston area.
I thought others might be interested...
I don't remember if it has been mentioned earlier in the thread, but the very first Unitarian church in Boston was Kings Chapel, a formerly Anglican parish that lost its clergy when they were recalled to London during the Revolution. The congregation called a recent Harvard graduate as their new minister, who accepted the call on the condition that he be allowed to remove the Trinitarian references from the Book of Common Prayer. They still use essentially the same BCP today, and wherever you might ordinarily expect to hear "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", you will instead hear "the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only Wise God" (I Timothy 1:17). If you step inside and look around, you would think you were in St. James's Piccadilly.
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
As a Catholic in the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts, I always think most other parishes are overrun with unitarians in chasubles, but that's just me. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I would, however, say that the Diocese of Massachusetts is a famously low-church diocese (with notable exceptions) and quite liberal to boot, so it does run more towards that Unitarian-y, Congregationalist-y feel. Trinity Church, the "principle parish" of the diocese is for all intents and purposes your average middle-of-the-road broad church (with a splendid building), but it's main service is still Morning Prayer with menstrual communion.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
but it's main service is still Morning Prayer with menstrual communion.
Do-whatty?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
but it's main service is still Morning Prayer with menstrual communion.
Do-whatty?
That typo (presumably) could add a wholly new dimension to some peoples' ideas about transubstantiation. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
but it's main service is still Morning Prayer with menstrual communion.
You might, perhaps, find "mensual" to be a slightly less surprising word here.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
