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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A House of Prayer
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
St John's Nottingham is avowedly evangelical ...
So, there we have it. Leo is right. The evangelicals are taking over the CofE ...
Although, of course, not everyone who starts off evangelical remains that way ... thanks to various nefarious liberal, RC or Orthodox Plots ... mwa ha ha ha ... mwa ha ha ha ...
My own view is that I'm entirely comfortable with bishops coming from evangelical backgrounds - provided they bring the best aspects of evangelicalism with them and not the naff evangelical sub-culture elements ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Near here, a large Baptist Union church rebuilt their building in order to make it more usable by the wider public - including the layout of the main sanctuary, a cafe and other smaller rooms. A large city-centre Methodist church I know is widely used for many activities - including soup kitchens, music exams, orchestra practices, performances, plays etc. Another Evangelical church I know was rebuilt with various (secular) funds, and as part of the deal has offices which are well-used by many different charities and agencies - with the church only guaranteed exclusive access on a Sunday.
In contrast, I know many Evangelical churches who decry the whole idea of other "non-worship" activities in their buildings and will not allow any kind of commerce to take place in them.
Evangelicalism is not a monolith on this issue.
I wasn't proposing that evangelicalism is 'a monolith on this issue'. My comments were based on the impression that the evangelical congregations I know are less likely to need to raise money by letting out their buildings as much as possible. (But I've learnt that in some areas their needs may be greater. Fair enough.)
I agreed that newly built churches today - most of which will be owned by evangelical congregations - do need to think about how to fund the upkeep of the new buildings in the long run, and ensuring that the new structures are rentable is to be highly advised.
The theological issues behind all of this are a different matter; but churches are skilled at making a virtue of necessity in any case....
(BTW, as a Methodist I'm well aware that Methodist congregations - most of which are not evangelical - try hard to rent out their church buildings if possible. On the whole they really do need the money, regardless of their theological position! If I were still a Methodist church steward I'd expect my church to be thinking not only of its service to the community, but also about how it can increase its rental income. IME it can be hard for some Methodist churches to get the balance right, so it's good to hear that the churches known to other people on this thread are successful at this.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
In practice Cranmer is very mixed because it's where most in the North East go, for practicality reasons. Most of my clergy/ordinand friends trained/are training there and it's a very wide variety of churchpersonships.
I don't think evangelicals are a monolith, experience has just made me sometimes forget that not all Anglican evangelicals are Oakhill/Sydney type evangelicals!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Most of the evangelical Anglicans I meet these days are more St John's in flavour - ie. open evangelical/charismatic ...
I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of Sydney style evangelical Anglicans I've met.
I suspect it depends where you are geographically.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
BTW, as a Methodist I'm well aware that Methodist congregations - most of which are not evangelical - try hard to rent out their church buildings if possible. On the whole they really do need the money, regardless of their theological position! If I were still a Methodist church steward I'd expect my church to be thinking not only of its service to the community, but also about how it can increase its rental income. IME it can be hard for some Methodist churches to get the balance right, so it's good to hear that the churches known to other people on this thread are successful at this.
Yes. Some churches may want be so keen on wanting to help community organisations that they give them space for free or at unrealistically low rents. That means that all the expenses fall on to a (possibly small) congregation. Ultimately the churches could fail and close, leaving the community organisations in the street. Unfortunately some funders of such groups - e.g. Councils - make the same mistake and don't give enough money for rent.
Also, some churches rent out their spaces so much that, while having an assured income, they feel like intruders in their own building, and may have severely constrained their own attempts to use their premises for mission. Equally, the surrounding community may come to regard the building as being primarily a School (or whatever) rather than a Church building. I've had experience of this, trust me!
[ 28. July 2015, 13:16: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
As far as I can tell, bishops have limited power to influence the direction of churches in their diocese anyway. The mix of Evangelical, liberal, high etc is not something they can do much about.
They have the power over new appointments - I could list many anglo-catholic parishes which have had an evangelical appoounted.
Many evangelicals are no longer 'low church' and don't object to vestments and incense - but they are not going to preach the catholic faith.
[ 28. July 2015, 17:17: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
St John's Nottingham is avowedly evangelical ...
So, there we have it. Leo is right. The evangelicals are taking over the CofE ...
Although, of course, not everyone who starts off evangelical remains that way
But St. John's is also pretty broad - they put on many interesting courses which don't stick to evangelical speakers.
And many who started off as evangelicals 'climb the candle' - I know one priest who trained at St. John's but who now regularly presides at Solemn Benediction.
[ 28. July 2015, 17:22: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Many evangelicals are no longer 'low church' and don't object to vestments and incense - but they are not going to preach the catholic faith.
I'm not Anglican, and I'm not British, so perhaps there's some cross-pond usage here, but I'm a bit surprised and more than a bit offended at the suggestion that evangelical Anglicans are not teaching small-c catholic faith. I'm wondering what doctrines in particular you are referring to? My tendency would be to define small-c catholic (or small-o orthodox) by the Apostle's and/or Nicene Creed, which would include most evangelicals, certainly any Anglican evangelicals I would think.
But then again, perhaps turn about is fair play, since many of my fellow evangelicals (albeit not any Anglican evangelicals I would think) are prone to making similar claims about mainliners.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not offended by leo's comment - but I can understand why it could cause offence. Leo is leo, I'm used to him on these boards ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I took him to be using the term catholic with a Big C - but I might be wrong.
Even if he meant catholic with a small-c I wouldn't be offended, I'd simply go ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) .
Anglo-Catholics can be 'spikey' but most of those I've met in real life aren't at all 'anti' evangelicalism - although I'm sure plenty are, but not those I've met. At worst, they'd consider it lacking in some aspects - and needful of being filled-out a bit more -- if that doesn't sound too patronising. But by and large, most Anglo-Catholic clergy I've met tend to be positive about the positive aspects of evangelicalism -- however cautious they are about other aspects.
It depends on their experiences of it -- quite a number are former evangelicals and some have a lot of respect for the tradition in which they grew up or found faith - others less so.
The mileage varies.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Many evangelicals are no longer 'low church' and don't object to vestments and incense - but they are not going to preach the catholic faith.
I'm not Anglican, and I'm not British, so perhaps there's some cross-pond usage here, but I'm a bit surprised and more than a bit offended at the suggestion that evangelical Anglicans are not teaching small-c catholic faith. I'm wondering what doctrines in particular you are referring to?
The role of Mary, intercession of the saints, real presence in the mass, purgatory, immaculate conception, the assumption, sacramental confession...
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I hope that nobody in the CofE, however A-C, is teaching as dogma, as opposed to as pious beliefs, the immaculate conception or the assumption.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Many evangelicals are no longer 'low church' and don't object to vestments and incense - but they are not going to preach the catholic faith.
I'm not Anglican, and I'm not British, so perhaps there's some cross-pond usage here, but I'm a bit surprised and more than a bit offended at the suggestion that evangelical Anglicans are not teaching small-c catholic faith. I'm wondering what doctrines in particular you are referring to?
The role of Mary, intercession of the saints, real presence in the mass, purgatory, immaculate conception, the assumption, sacramental confession...
I would call those things Big-C Catholic, not small-c catholic. Which may sound like nit-picking, but I think the distinction is important.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Many evangelicals are no longer 'low church' and don't object to vestments and incense - but they are not going to preach the catholic faith.
I'm not Anglican, and I'm not British, so perhaps there's some cross-pond usage here, but I'm a bit surprised and more than a bit offended at the suggestion that evangelical Anglicans are not teaching small-c catholic faith. I'm wondering what doctrines in particular you are referring to?
The role of Mary, intercession of the saints, real presence in the mass, purgatory, immaculate conception, the assumption, sacramental confession...
So, the catholic faith includes a whole bunch of stuff not deemed important enough to include in the Nicene Creed. Interesting.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Or indeed the Athanasian Creed, which of course contains the bald statement
And the Catholick Faith is this:
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But by and large, most Anglo-Catholic clergy I've met tend to be positive about the positive aspects of evangelicalism -- however cautious they are about other aspects.
Which only seems prudent. As we've seen, we're a diverse lot, which can veer into nutty territory at times.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It depends on their experiences of it -- quite a number are former evangelicals and some have a lot of respect for the tradition in which they grew up or found faith - others less so.
The mileage varies.
And the reverse as well, of course, when it comes to evangelicals who were raised in other denoms. Thankfully, it often changes over time. I was raised in the UCC-- one of the more liberal American mainline denoms, at the time very much part of the Social Gospel Movement. For years I had a typical evangelical disdain for my more liberal upbringing, but in recent years I've come to honor and appreciate those roots and the gifts they bring, and allowed that to shape my lefty evangelicalism. But in my Pentecostal church I still come across quite a few ex-Catholics, ex-Episcopalians, etc. who are very heavy on the "ex" part.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure - I've come across that a lot too.
Coming back to leo's list ... it does indeed seem not only Big C Catholic but also specifically Roman Catholic ...
The Orthodox, for instance, don't believe in Purgatory (although some believe in the heavenly toll-booths thing, although that's not counted as dogma ...)
So are we saying that the Orthodox are insufficiently Catholic (Big C) according to leo's criteria?
The Orthodox don't believe in the immaculate conception either and their views of the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary also differ in several respects from the RC one ...
Which definition of Catholic is leo using?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Which definition of Catholic is leo using?
Leo was speaking in the context of an evo priest being sent to an A-C parish. I understood him to say that many such priests were prepared to dress up in the A-C shack's tat, but would not preach or practice the "Catholic" parts of typical A-C faith.
It doesn't seem unreasonable for an A-C to want the C parts of his faith nourished even though they are not essential dogma. (And yes, obviously the C in this context is pretty close to Rome. Most A-Cs aren't terribly influenced by what the Orthies do.)
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Which definition of Catholic is leo using?
Leo was speaking in the context of an evo priest being sent to an A-C parish. I understood him to say that many such priests were prepared to dress up in the A-C shack's tat, but would not preach or practice the "Catholic" parts of typical A-C faith.
It doesn't seem unreasonable for an A-C to want the C parts of his faith nourished even though they are not essential dogma. (And yes, obviously the C in this context is pretty close to Rome. Most A-Cs aren't terribly influenced by what the Orthies do.)
Which, again, would be Big-C Catholic, not small-c. It's not an insignificant difference. Leo used small-c "catholic" but appears to actually mean Big-C Catholic. I have no quarrel with his list as it applies to big-C Catholicism.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Coming back to leo's list ... it does indeed seem not only Big C Catholic but also specifically Roman Catholic ...
In all the churches I have belonged to over 50 years - I think there are 5 of them - they'rfe all Anglican, not Roman.
The tragedy of the modern C of E is that it nhas lots its breadth of churchmanship so people think of anglo-catholicism as some sort of abheration.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Coming back to leo's list ... it does indeed seem not only Big C Catholic but also specifically Roman Catholic ...
In all the churches I have belonged to over 50 years - I think there are 5 of them - they'rfe all Anglican, not Roman.
The tragedy of the modern C of E is that it nhas lots its breadth of churchmanship so people think of anglo-catholicism as some sort of abheration.
So given that breadth within Anglicanism, much less Christianity as a whole, next time be a bit more careful about the small-c v. Big-C thing, huh? Again, it may seem like nit-picking but (much like the legendary iota) it really does make a difference.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
people think of anglo-catholicism as some sort of abheration.
Who said anything about Anglo-Catholicism being an aberation? The issue is whether it is appropriate to state that some distinctly Catholic doctrines (eg: intercession of the saints, real presence in the mass, purgatory, immaculate conception, the assumption, sacramental confession) should be believed by all Christians. In which case you are excluding evangelicals, and a large part of the rest of the Church, from the catholic faith. Which is, IMO, as wrong as those evangelicals who would declare ACs outside the faith because they do believe things that are not clearly taught in Scripture and contained in the historic Creeds.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Of course a relative minority of Anglicans are going to believe in those things! MOTR Anglicans, let alone evangelicals, are not. And that's fine. Anglicanism =/= Anglo-Catholicism. That IS Anglicanism being a broad church.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As has been noted upthread, this is particularly a problem when the sanctuary is also a tourist destination. Here in California, we have that problem with our historic missions (most of which have now been decommissioned for that reason).
A gentle correction: most of the California missions are still functioning as Catholic churches, either as parishes themselves or as part the local Catholic parish. At least two of them are still run by Franciscan friars: Santa Barbara (by the Friars Minor) and Santa Ynez (by the Capuchins).
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Agh. I was sure that was the case, but research proves I am mistaken. Having endured myself and then shepherded three kids through the obligatory 4th grade trip up El Camino Real, followed by the inevitable plaster-and-corregated cardboard building project, I oughta know better. They're gonna take my Disneyland parking pass away for that one.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Agh. I was sure that was the case, but research proves I am mistaken. Having endured myself and then shepherded three kids through the obligatory 4th grade trip up El Camino Real, followed by the inevitable plaster-and-corregated cardboard building project, I oughta know better. They're gonna take my Disneyland parking pass away for that one.
No worries. You weren't wrong about their problems as tourist destinations. For example, I believe at Misión Santa Bárbara the tabernacle was moved into a chapel because the presence of tourists in the nave could make prayer difficult.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Oh yeah--we tried to behave ourselves v. quietly when visiting San Luis Rey for fear of disturbing a couple of parishioners.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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