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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The future of socialism in the UK
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Just laughed my head off at Margaret Beckett in a TV interview
Q - "Do you regret nominating Jeremy Corbyn?"
A - "Yes, I hoped that Andy Burnham would win."
That's really funny....
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I feel a sense of relief, of 'coming home' and I hope many others do too.
After huge disappointment post 1997 when we got awful war mongering right wing 'tory lite' under Blair + Brown I voted Lib dem sometimes, green others. But there was never a party which really stood up for what I believe in. Now there is (if Corbyn manages to take the party with him that is)
I suspect many other people feel the same.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Just laughed my head off at Margaret Beckett in a TV interview
Q - "Do you regret nominating Jeremy Corbyn?"
A - "Yes, I hoped that Andy Burnham would win."
That's really funny....
And there you see the influence of Corbyn already, a politician giving a straight answer to a straight question ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I feel a sense of relief, of 'coming home' and I hope many others do too.
I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but if it comes down to a choice between Corbyn or George Osborne for PM at the next election, it's no contest as far as I'm concerned: I'll be backing Osborne all the way. I can't stand the man, but almost anyone would be better than Corbyn.
And yes, I do recognize that I'm a lone voice on a predominantly left-wing board.
[ 12. September 2015, 17:40: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Why ? In the name of all that is rational, why ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Too many reasons to list. "Loony Left" might sum them up.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
If that really were the only choice, I'm with Ariel on this. I don't reckon much to Osborne but Corbyn represents everything I detest about politics. He's the photographic negative of John Redwood.
The Labour Party has chosen Scarfolk. It didn't have to, but it has done.
As for this belief that he's a man of true principles, nobody could have spent the 1970s with the sort of people he mixed with and doesn't seem to have repudiated at the North London Polytechnic and elsewhere unless they have a very different concept of integrity to the one the rest of us have.
His vision has nothing to offer the rest of us who are not members of the Labour Party, were not among the 251,417, but do have votes.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That's deeply unspecific.
He is not a communist (which seems to be what the daily express thinks).
[ 12. September 2015, 18:27: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Too many reasons to list. "Loony Left" might sum them up.
If that phrase had a meaningful definition it might help.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I dunno, but the way I see it, Ariel and Enoch have every right to dislike Corbyn, and they don't owe an explanation for that. That's democracy. He's still the chairman of the Labour Party though.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Of course, but "er yuck" is a little sparse for a discussion thread.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
And yes, I do recognize that I'm a lone voice on a predominantly left-wing board.
Oh, I don't think so!
But I wouldn't vote for Osborne at the next election, no matter who is on the ticket as Labour leader. I learned in the constituency where I was born that if the Archangel Gabriel sported a blue rosette and a donkey a red rosette, the donkey would win by 25,000 votes.
On some issues I think Jeremy Corbyn is a consummate donkey and I'm not sure he will ever be electable as prospective PM. But by comparison, Osborne is a double donkey. Corbyn has principles. My gut tells me that Osborne's principles are probably for sale in the attempt to achieve his ambitions.
Anyway, when push comes to shove, I'd rather put my trust in the red rosette. Don't see that cross on the ballot paper moving over towards the blue, under any cicumstances.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I just got an email asking me what I want him to ask David Cameron at PMQs, I'm not optimistic my question will make the cut - but I live in hope.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
For the first time I can remember (My memory only goes back to Kinnock) we have a Labour leader to the left of me.
Interesting times.
But remember the notion of Corbyn as 'Loony Left' is primarily a construct of the right-wing media. The Express and Mail are not known for their accuracy and fairness.
Anyone is free to like/dislike vote for/against whomever they like. That's democracy but I live in some hope that people will see through the myths and actually judge him on who he actually is. Just like they did with... no wait, um, how about, no. Or? no.
Osborne is a very clever politician and an appalling chancellor. History will not be kind. The best hope for Britain is that his contemporaries come to see this truth.
These are my worries... and my hopes. I am torn.
But interesting times ahead.
AFZ
P.S. Left-leaning boards? Really?
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Don't see that cross on the ballot paper moving over towards the blue, under any cicumstances.
I agree. Jeremy Corbyn becoming Labour leader couldn't make me vote Conservative either!
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Touchstone
Shipmate
# 3560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Why ? In the name of all that is rational, why ?
I think one very good reason, and one which could hand the Tories an open goal in 2020, would be national security. Russian bombers are buzzing our coastline to test our defences, and Corbyn wants to leave NATO? Seriously?
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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!
Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
So, Corbyn vs Cameron at PMQs on Wednesday. Will certainly be interesting. In their rolling coverage today, the BBC quoted a tweet by former Sun editor David Yelland
quote:
Corbyn is so much better at communicating than Cameron, clear, fluent, open. This will be interesting no matter what your politics
That is interesting, because right through the general election campaign Cameron was accused of lacking passion. I think he speaks very well in a "cool calm and collected" fashion and obviously has a certain background. But he did have a few bursts of "passion" towards the end, and still came across quite well even though it didn't look his natural style. I think he did come across better than Milliband and that was probably a factor for a lot of people.
Now, rewind to the 80s when Labour last had a left winger in charge (who also never won a general election) and Kinnock was probably the best orator of his generation (although Scargill and Derek Hatton were pretty meaty as well - is it something about left wingers?!?!). Thatcher however was also a great speaker and didn't mind getting stuck in at PMQs against Kinnock.
So this will also be a big clash of styles, as well as the two leaders probably being further apart politically than any others have been since Thatcher v Kinnock (even if Corbyn doesn't have his party with him)
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Why ? In the name of all that is rational, why ?
I think one very good reason, and one which could hand the Tories an open goal in 2020, would be national security. Russian bombers are buzzing our coastline to test our defences, and Corbyn wants to leave NATO? Seriously?
That does not appear to be his position:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11829048/Jeremy-Corbyn-backtracks-on-calls-for-Britain-to-leave-Nato.h tml
But also, and this is important, he has stated that he wants consensus policy making in the party. He is a republican, but I don't expect him to call a referendum on the monarchy.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
He has the Party with him. The MPs are another matter
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
He has the Party with him. The MPs are another matter
Well, that'll be another reason to watch carefully. When Cameron won the Conservative leadership the MPs went nuts for him when he was first called. You only had to watch the announcement of the results today and look at some of the faces to see a contrast. Whether they'll raise the roof for him anyway on Wednesday will be intestine.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Why ? In the name of all that is rational, why ?
I think one very good reason, and one which could hand the Tories an open goal in 2020, would be national security. Russian bombers are buzzing our coastline to test our defences, and Corbyn wants to leave NATO? Seriously?
That does not appear to be his position:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11829048/Jeremy-Corbyn-backtracks-on-calls-for-Britain-to-leave-Nato.h tml
But also, and this is important, he has stated that he wants consensus policy making in the party. He is a republican, but I don't expect him to call a referendum on the monarchy.
In fact, even the stop the war coalition doesn't report him saying he would withdraw the UK from NATO if elected.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Massive auto correct failure by my phone there. I meant "interesting" or course.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Why ? In the name of all that is rational, why ?
I think one very good reason, and one which could hand the Tories an open goal in 2020, would be national security. Russian bombers are buzzing our coastline to test our defences, and Corbyn wants to leave NATO? Seriously?
That does not appear to be his position:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11829048/Jeremy-Corbyn-backtracks-on-calls-for-Britain-to-leave-Nato.h tml
But also, and this is important, he has stated that he wants consensus policy making in the party. He is a republican, but I don't expect him to call a referendum on the monarchy.
In fact, even the stop the war coalition doesn't report him saying he would withdraw the UK from NATO if elected.
The Guardian do though. Right wing press have it in for him already
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Nonetheless, inaccurate.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Touchstone
Shipmate
# 3560
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Posted
I read in the Indie a few weeks ago that Corbyn was in favour of withdrawal form NATO. If he isn't, he needs to start saying so loud and clear right now or that's the ball game.
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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!
Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I read in the Indie a few weeks ago that Corbyn was in favour of withdrawal form NATO. If he isn't, he needs to start saying so loud and clear right now or that's the ball game.
There are a great many things he needs to clear up rapidly. That and the EU are the first two I can think of.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
The Guardian had him saying he wanted to reform the EU from within.
Guardian.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
So as a result of the government's policies there are now more comprehensives in Britain not less. Doesn't sound very right wing to me. You make the case that these new comprehensives are a bit less comprehensive but that would make the policy centre right at most.
Not really, enriching themselves and their chums takes precedence. I believe Peter Oborne (who is more of a true conservative than Hitchens) has written on the subject quite extensively.
And make no mistake - these are comprehensives in name only - the idea is to skim off the children that are easiest (read cheapest) to teach.
There are two sorts of academies: the state schools that have converted as that was the only way to maintain funding and the free school academies.
If you read the OFSTED reports of the free school academies set up by private companies or Government's cronies the school profile for inner city areas in London often shows very low numbers of special needs students compared with the demographics of local schools and very low ethnic diversity compared with the demographics of other local schools. In other words the school populations of academies are very white and very middle class.
As these schools are also very recently established, for the most part they only have intakes of two or three years on sites intended to take the full five or seven years. The limited nature of many of the sites does not forebode well for the future. (Seven year groups in converted office blocks with limited or no space to play outside could be challenging in the future.)
There are a very few companies dominating the market for free school academies in London currently - ARK schools* and the Harris Federation and there's also Toby Young's organisation. Outside London there's also the United Learning Trust
It's pure ideology replacing local authorities with big business wearing a charitable front.
The other big issue is someone somewhere has to pick up the children who are not being educated by these academies, and there are another set of companies doing that: Complete Works, TBAP - there are more, which charge the local authority a premium rate to take the more challenging students.
* sorry bit.ly link as the Wikipedia url has brackets
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Penny S
I am well aware of he various arguments that are made in favour of left wing policies. None of that stops them from being left wing.
I was under the impression that I was arguing about the use of "politically correct" as something that should be abjured, without explanation of why.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
There'd be a lot less austerity in my house if I'd stuck a £20 bet on him when Corbyn was 500/1 against with the bookmakers. Ah well, that's Methodism for you ;-)
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I find I have mixed feelings this evening. On the one hand, sheer glee: if Corbyn goes the distance (and after listening to his victory speech, I'm not sure that's certain) then a Conservative victory at the next election is assured. It might not be too far-fetched to speculate about a three-figure majority. Iain Duncan Smith can be at the DWP until 2025 and it'll all be thanks to you guys.
But on the other hand, sadness at watching the Labour Party implode in this way. I think good governments require good oppositions to keep them on their toes so the current government might suffer if it slips into complacency. I also feel sorry for the many Labour Party members I know and who must be pretty miffed tonight.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I admit I found the controversy over the £3 supporters rather confusing. Then I looked at the Labour Party's membership fees. Sheesh, talk about stiff. £46.50 per year, which is $CAD 96.05/year. Yikes!
Labour's Canadian cousin, the NDP only charges $25.00 max (in Ontario and BC) down to $10/year Quebec and the Atlantic Provinces.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I find I have mixed feelings this evening. On the one hand, sheer glee: if Corbyn goes the distance (and after listening to his victory speech, I'm not sure that's certain) then a Conservative victory at the next election is assured.
Don't be so sure. The landslide majority could well be repeated on a larger scale by many people who are tired of the old Labour party, some of whom are too young to remember the old days and think this is all new and exciting. Absolutely don't take a Conservative victory for granted. Also, there is still Ukip around to make noises and try to attract a share of the vote.
I'm hoping Corbyn will invigorate Cameron's campaign but I don't see anything else to hope for from it. Still, the next election is five years away, much can happen by then.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I suppose this leaves a big gap in the market for the Liberal Democrats, though they may have been too battered in May to fill it.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm old enough to remember standing outside the polling station at the age of 11 with my friend Philip, in a half mile long row of terrace council houses where I lived, shouting 'Conservatives for ever' as our mothers liked that nice Sir Alec Douglas-Home.
Over 50 years later I joined the party and voted for Jeremy and Tom.
It's been a long journey.
Home.
And what got clever, telegenic Wilson in, was that 'it was time for a change'.
The awesome British electorate are QUITE capable of putting 70 year old Corbyn OR his heir apparent - Tom - in to Number 10.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm old enough to remember standing outside the polling station at the age of 11 with my friend Philip, in a half mile long row of terrace council houses where I lived, shouting 'Conservatives for ever' as our mothers liked that nice Sir Alec Douglas-Home.
Over 50 years later I joined the party and voted for Jeremy and Tom.
It's been a long journey.
Home.
And what got clever, telegenic Wilson in, was that 'it was time for a change'.
The awesome British electorate are QUITE capable of putting 70 year old Corbyn OR his heir apparent - Tom - in to Number 10.
I'm quite surprised Watson didn't go for the top job this time actually. Was obviously popular enough to get the deputy job and not hard to see why given his performance over Leveson follow ups. Much more popular with his MPS I would think. Sadly the deputy debate barely got a whiff of attention once Corbyn mania got going.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Seems JC is popular with the younger voter. If he picks up Russel B's disaffected followers he might be on to something. Get banging on about leaving NATO, unilateral disarmament etc. Then I fear the only thing Labour supporters will be coming home to will be the 80s wilderness years.
But then the Cold war ended in in 89 so Hey, who knows ?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Too many reasons to list. "Loony Left" might sum them up.
If that phrase had a meaningful definition it might help.
It's never had a meaningful definition. It was a phrase invented in the 1980s by the right wing media as a convenient headline phrase for their campaign against the Labour Party. And, of course, they weren't just inventing a catchy headline phrase, they also invented (or exaggerated beyond any semblance to facts) the examples of looniness they reported under the headline. Sorry, there were no left wing councils banning the singing of "Baa Baa Black Sheep", nor the reference to "manhole covers". And, where the right-wing rags could find genuine stories to berate Labour with they were things like promoting racial or sexual equality through not unreasonable policies - and of course, most of those policies have now gone through Westminster to be law of the land in equality legislation. And, of course, that Labour have always had a large number of members in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I suppose this leaves a big gap in the market for the Liberal Democrats, though they may have been too battered in May to fill it.
Hopefully not. It may be more important than ever that Tim Farron wasn't part of the cabinet and voted against a rise in tuition fees. We shall see. One thing's for certain, he'll have one hell of a job getting media time in the current climate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
One big name Labour MP defecting to the LibDems would result in plenty of media coverage for Farron. Even an unknown backbencher defecting would be jumped on by the right wing media as evidence of Labour imploding.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Penny S
I am well aware of he various arguments that are made in favour of left wing policies. None of that stops them from being left wing.
I was under the impression that I was arguing about the use of "politically correct" as something that should be abjured, without explanation of why.
Well that's a slightly different issue. The point is that whether you think political correctness is to be abjured or supported, whether you like it or you don't like it, its still left wing and not right wing.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's been a long journey.
I've moved in the opposite direction. Fifteen years ago I was a wishy washy centrist who voted Lib Dem. I've moved quite some distance to the right since then.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's been a long journey.
I've moved in the opposite direction. Fifteen years ago I was a wishy washy centrist who voted Lib Dem. I've moved quite some distance to the right since then.
There's still time to repent and save yourself.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It's probably to Labour's benefit to see a lib dem revival, in all honesty. The way the electoral map looks the tory majority in comprised of former lib dem seats in England. Labour will never take Yeovil (for example) regardless of who is leader, and splitting the neo-liberal vote offers Labour a way to take some seats too. I also don't think a Farron lib dems will go into a coalition with the tories, and I think Corbyn's consensualist politics are well suited to a minority government.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Unity is not off to a good start. Apparently, 7 members of the Shadow Cabinet have resigned - including Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall. I guess that isn't unexpected. It's more a comment on Jeremy Corbyn's stated policies than the man himself.
And there's the rub. There will now be a more Left Wing Shadow Cabinet, in line with the vote and the convictions of those who will serve with JC. The vacation of the centre ground is already under way and it will get taken by either the Lib Dems or the Tories.
Of course that is what Tony Blair said, and in doing so he may have guaranteed JC's victory. But even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
If support for the comprehensive system is not particularly left wing why is it that the strongest opposition to other types of schooling (e.g. grammar schools, private schools, homeschooling) and the strongest support for the comprehensive system comes from leftists.
You point about State planning could be said about any form of state run education, certainly including comprehensive schools.
Not sure I follow. Comprehensives are defined as left-wing simply because (historically at least) the left-wing party supports them. But grammar schools can be defined as right-wing even though the right-wing party doesn't support them and parties that did support them included the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia.
The point about state planning is one of degree. If Ricardusborough has an 11+ with the top 20% going to grammar school then the percentage of children on the professional track is fixed by diktat. If Ricardusborough has a comprehensive system then the number of children who end up on the academic track will depend on a number of factors, which will include (albeit not be limited to) what the children or their parents themselves decide when they're picking their options for GCSE. In other words: consumer choice, which is the supposed to be the cornerstone of the free market.
Now this is accepting that free markets are a right-wing idea, which is what right-wingers like to believe. In that case, academies and free schools are an even more right-wing idea, in that they are supposed to be about parental choice*. But according to you they are both Blairite ideas.
In reality the idea that free markets are right wing is itself false, because although it's true that state planning was a feature of the Eastern Bloc and to a lesser extent of Old Labour, it was also a tenet of Franco's Spain - but it was not a tenet of Karl Marx himself, who wanted the state to wither away.
* FWIW I'm not against either as such - I'm suspicious of the way they have been implemented.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The awesome British electorate are QUITE capable of putting 70 year old Corbyn OR his heir apparent - Tom - in to Number 10.
It most certainly is so capable, but I am prepared to bet money on its not happening. Before I go off to bbq some steak, and open a red, let's look back to the 80's - which I'm more than old enough to remember. Labour was incapable of selling Michael Foot then, and I can't see anything to suggest that the party will be any better at selling Corbyn.
Assume that Corbyn is still leader of the party at the next election, the probable result will be that a fair number of the SNP seats return to Labour and there's an increase in the Labour vote in some safe seats, primarily in London. Offsetting this will be a loss of many Labour marginals, and a party even more riven than it is now.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
If support for the comprehensive system is not particularly left wing why is it that the strongest opposition to other types of schooling (e.g. grammar schools, private schools, homeschooling) and the strongest support for the comprehensive system comes from leftists.
You point about State planning could be said about any form of state run education, certainly including comprehensive schools.
Not sure I follow. Comprehensives are defined as left-wing simply because (historically at least) the left-wing party supports them. But grammar schools can be defined as right-wing even though the right-wing party doesn't support them and parties that did support them included the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia.
The point about state planning is one of degree. If Ricardusborough has an 11+ with the top 20% going to grammar school then the percentage of children on the professional track is fixed by diktat. If Ricardusborough has a comprehensive system then the number of children who end up on the academic track will depend on a number of factors, which will include (albeit not be limited to) what the children or their parents themselves decide when they're picking their options for GCSE. In other words: consumer choice, which is the supposed to be the cornerstone of the free market.
Now this is accepting that free markets are a right-wing idea, which is what right-wingers like to believe. In that case, academies and free schools are an even more right-wing idea, in that they are supposed to be about parental choice*. But according to you they are both Blairite ideas.
In reality the idea that free markets are right wing is itself false, because although it's true that state planning was a feature of the Eastern Bloc and to a lesser extent of Old Labour, it was also a tenet of Franco's Spain - but it was not a tenet of Karl Marx himself, who wanted the state to wither away.
* FWIW I'm not against either as such - I'm suspicious of the way they have been implemented.
I'll take your point about it being less clear cut that support for grammar schools is right wing, it would depend on the context and what they were being contrasted with. In the UK context support for grammar schools is identified with opposing or reducing the power of the comprehensive system so it is on the right in comparison with the pro-comprehensive left.
I would agree with you that economic liberalism is right wing is indeed false and I'm glad you've made that point. So many people will say that various 'third way' leftists like Tony Blair aren't really leftists because they support economic liberalism whereas of course that doesn't stop them being leftists at all.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
At the Any Questions? of 21 August, Dan Jones, a historian on the panel, said that although Jeremy Corbyn was probably not going to be the next Labour PM, electing him as leader now meant that the discussions about what Labour stood for would happen. Currently Labour makes Tory lite policies and hasn't really got a clear identity.
Someone on the Ship asked what the unions should be for as we had moved on from the Victorian labour market. But is that true? Should Labour not be there for those on 0 hours contracts and to return some of the employment rights that are being eroded. To stand up for the NHS, education, all those other public goods that are being dismantled.
At the last election Labour looked totally unelectable - Miliband and Ball did not look competent and there was no clear idea of what Labour stood for. Corbyn at least might resolve the second of those issues. And he will be a voice of opposition to the current Tory government, and they need opposing. Because at the moment their only opposition is their own backbenchers.
Various people have said that Corbyn would be good as he would ensure those discussions happen, partly because he's collegiate, unlike Blair.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think people fundamentally didn't trust Ed Milliband because he totally shafted a member of his own family. We know politicians are ambitious but there are limits.
Likewise, they didn't trust Clegg because he broke the tution fees promise. We know politicians can be devious, but there are limits.
The policy issues are alomost secondary in those circumstances - though I think Labour performed poorly in articulating a clear opposition to the condem government.
[ 13. September 2015, 10:29: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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