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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is there something wrong with this phrase "Battle against cancer"?
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... though not ALL cases of lung cancer are due to smoking, and no doubt there are a few cases where a smoker would have had lung cancer regardless of personal habits. Which confounds the issue.
Mr. Lamb was dealing with a woman with lung cancer last year who had never smoked a cigarette, but the constant assumption by everybody was that she had. It must be a burden.
Yes, the one case of lung cancer I personally know is also a non-smoker, and he must constantly deal with the assumptions. It's almost as if he has a separate condition, called "lung-cancer-but-I'm-not-a-smoker".
The problem with all of this is that people basically can't handle statistical probability. Smoking increases your risk of lung cancer, but not all lung cancer is caused by smoking and not all smokers will get lung cancer.
It's false that having strong willpower will mean that you win the "battle"... but it's also false to think that your willpower/attitude has no effect whatsoever.
It's much the same issue as to why people will comment on the weather on a particular day as if it proves or disproves climate change.
[ 24. August 2015, 05:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Perhaps instead of condemning those folks it might be a good idea to pray that they find comfort and serenity.
I didn't see any posts on this thread condemning people who term their struggle a battle. Instead what my post and others have said is that they don't appreciate other people pre-empting that decision by deciding for people with cancer that they are warriors in a battle.
For me the hardest part of having cancer was being told by my Doctor (and I checked it out) that the survival rate was higher for optimists. I spent two years being an optimist which is not my normal life stance. That's not exactly a battle.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... though not ALL cases of lung cancer are due to smoking...
Miss Molly died of lung cancer although she had never smoked.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Someone I knew some years ago seemed to die from "giving up" - he had been in and out of hospital several times and was weak, but there didn't seem to be any particular reason why he died then other than that he didn't want to live any longer.
Without wanting to minimise those who have terminal illnesses in any way (and, of course, affirming the value of life even to the very sick), is there something less spiritual about "giving up" compared to "fighting cancer tooth and claw"?
Is the problem there that a refusal to fight a long debilitate illness is seen as tantamount to (a kind of) suicide?
Again, please do not think I am talking to anyone in particular, I am really struggling to understand the views expressed in the OP.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
The Onion, as so often, gets it.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That is an awesome Onion story! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) Wish I'd written it.
As for giving up--the problem here is that you can't tell cause and effect from one another. Did the person give up and thereby hasten his death? Or did he sense that death was just around the corner and therefore give up?
There are physical states that cause psychological symptoms, and sometimes the state of mind is the only obvious symptom. (Saw a writeup of a case yesterday of a woman with major major anxiety and panic, nothing else apparent--turned out to be an aortic dissection)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I don't understand what the difference is between following the procedures recommended by oncologists, being honest and clear about one's reactions etc, and doing exactly the same thing and 'battling' against the disease. Is there a difference?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think personality might have a lot to do with this, maybe even gender in some cases.
Culture, too, possibly?
In some long-forgotten book I had on grief counselling, the author (an American) began by asserting that "Americans view death as a personal moral failing." ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) IIRC she then went on to a more nuanced observation, but that bold statement caught my attention.
If it is broadly true that American culture is more optimistic - and British culture has more public space for bitterness and unfairness - those cultural differences could affect what it means to be "battling" cancer. If true, there is a higher risk that an American with a poor outcome might be viewed as an inadequate shirker, blamed for not taking a positive enough attitude toward cancer.
There's a whole lot of magical thinking that can attach to that.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That's an awesome point.
Yes, I do think there's a lot of moral stuff (wrongly) attached to sickness and death in this culture. Which may be why the sick are so often plagued with self-chosen evangelists of this, that and the other "get your health back" snake oil techniques. There's so often a whiff of "come to the righteous side" about what they say.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is the problem there that a refusal to fight a long debilitate illness is seen as tantamount to (a kind of) suicide?
The alternative to “battle” is not giving up. Susan Doris, our resident atheist, has well put one reason – you don’t have to use that particular metaphor for just coping.
Christians might like to consider Jesus in the garden “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” Humanly speaking Jesus gave up.
The battle against mortality has already been fought and won on the cross.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
Is the "battle against cancer" just a sloppy way of saying the "battle against the effects of cancer".
I have no doubt that many people with cancer actively battle the debilitating effects that the disease and its treatment can cause. Just getting out of bed may be a physical and/or a mental battle. Assuming that nothing else gets me first I hope that I shall deserve the accolade of cancer (effect) battler in due course.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I don't like the expression - so much that I have been avoiding the thread.
My mother died of brain cancer. She held it at bay for as long as possible so that she stayed at home - I know it was difficult for my father, but he wouldn't let me go to see them. She was hallucinating people, and perhaps developing dementia. Then she went into hospital and we visited nearly all the time for several weeks before she went - "She's a fighter" the nurses said, and I wished she wouldn't - she got to a stage where the whole of her body could not be touched without it causing pain. They took three days after suggesting morphine to get the pump in, and I tried to work out how to turn it faster, but couldn't. By then she wanted to go.
One of my colleagues also had brain cancer, which was treated and went into remission briefly, at which time she came back into school for a last visit. We knew, and were told by her family to keep to ourselves, that it would recur, and be terminal. She was of a church which was at the Pentecostal end of the spectrum, and believed that God would not allow her to die of what she believed was evil. Her battle was prayer. And it was going to fail, and we knew it, and had to keep silent.
I do not like the language. It, as has been said above, implies failure if the disease wins.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
Thank you, Penny. Often enough, I have tried to laugh in the face of cancer as a way of keeping my spirits up while I have that luxury. But you can't always do that, and you have made that reality clear. Tears and prayers are much more comforting than bravado and war cries.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I will admit to using the 'fighter' term in a eulogy I was asked to write for a close family member. The person was diagnosed with terminal cancer aged 86 and spent her life, (which hadn't been the easiest) , head- strong.
I didn't see much point in having it said at her funeral that she pretty much went to pieces come the end. There is usually some attempt to protect a person's dignity when they have died from something unpleasant. Rather like 'died in action' for a soldier rather than explicit details of their being blown up or drowned in mud.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
The carer who comes to help the Grandad shower told me, without comment, of two clients, both of whom had Multiple Sclerosis.
One, when diagnosed, took advantage of all available ameliorating treatment, physiotherapy etc. He still gets dressed and goes to work each day. The other did nothing to help himself and is now totally paralysed.
I don't know the time frame, but it does illustrate how attitude can make a huge difference to physical outcomes, and why people might want to refer to the second person as a battler, though he might not welcome the label.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
That's certainly true with arthritis Galloping Granny. Getting lots of exercise is the best thing by far, even when it hurts!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lam Chopped. I don't see that as listed with the usually (96%) pretty obvious, acute, nasty symptoms of aortic dissection.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Kindly refrain from dispensing medical diagnosis and/or advice. This host annoucement carries an Admin health warning.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
The carer who comes to help the Grandad shower told me, without comment, of two clients, both of whom had Multiple Sclerosis.
One, when diagnosed, took advantage of all available ameliorating treatment, physiotherapy etc. He still gets dressed and goes to work each day. The other did nothing to help himself and is now totally paralysed.
I don't know the time frame, but it does illustrate how attitude can make a huge difference to physical outcomes, and why people might want to refer to the second person as a battler, though he might not welcome the label.
GG
When I read your anecdote, it sounds like it was designed to produce judgmental moral superiority toward one person diagnosed with the disease. This is horseshit. MS is notoriously variable in the rapidity and severity of its onset. Some people have a series of long steady plateaus lasting for years; others are paralyzed within a month of diagnosis. This is not a good case study for the effects of positive attitude.
The problem IMO is when people use their perceptions of "positive attitude" to judge the sufferer of an illness, thereby increasing the sufferer's misery, in order to reinforce their own magical thinking. "Well, if I was diagnosed with MS, I would do everything in my power to fight it, because after all I'm a fighter. I wouldn't be like X over there who became crippled in a month. Because I have a positive attitude, and a smile is my shield."
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
The carer who comes to help the Grandad shower told me, without comment, of two clients, both of whom had Multiple Sclerosis.
One, when diagnosed, took advantage of all available ameliorating treatment, physiotherapy etc. He still gets dressed and goes to work each day. The other did nothing to help himself and is now totally paralysed.
I don't know the time frame, but it does illustrate how attitude can make a huge difference to physical outcomes, and why people might want to refer to the second person as a battler, though he might not welcome the label.
GG
When I read your anecdote, it sounds like it was designed to produce judgmental moral superiority toward one person diagnosed with the disease. This is horseshit. MS is notoriously variable in the rapidity and severity of its onset. Some people have a series of long steady plateaus lasting for years; others are paralyzed within a month of diagnosis. This is not a good case study for the effects of positive attitude.
The problem IMO is when people use their perceptions of "positive attitude" to judge the sufferer of an illness, thereby increasing the sufferer's misery, in order to reinforce their own magical thinking. "Well, if I was diagnosed with MS, I would do everything in my power to fight it, because after all I'm a fighter. I wouldn't be like X over there who became crippled in a month. Because I have a positive attitude, and a smile is my shield."
I intended no moral judgement, but neither have I personal acquaintance with MS, so thank you for balancing my observation.
My remarks may have been coloured by the fact that I'm dealing with pain that none of the consultants can diagnose the source of. Pain relief is adequate but my main emotion is 'I'm damned if I'll let this stop me from doing the things that I regard as meaningful activities'.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
My remarks may have been coloured by the fact that I'm dealing with pain that none of the consultants can diagnose the source of. Pain relief is adequate but my main emotion is 'I'm damned if I'll let this stop me from doing the things that I regard as meaningful activities'.
I admire your fortitude.
My attitude toward others' responses to suffering is a more in-depth version of my attitude toward others' fashion choices: I am far more likely to compliment than criticize. With most people, criticism doesn't help anyway and only wounds them and makes them defensive. I might have opinions - and if asked, or if I thought something really bad was going on, I might gently offer some alternatives. But particularly when it comes to suffering, it's unique to each individual, and I am very reluctant to label or tell another what their response ought to be. It's not a good 'teachable moment' when someone's in the midst of it.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
When I had cancer, I knew it was the skill of the doctors, radiologists and pharmacists etc that would make the difference as to whether I'd live or not.
Eh? You think that in the UK there are a statistically significant number of people dying of cancer who would have survived if they'd had more skillful doctors, radiologists and pharmacists? That is a pretty big way to dis an awful lot of doctors and pharmacists.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
When I had cancer, I knew it was the skill of the doctors, radiologists and pharmacists etc that would make the difference as to whether I'd live or not.
Eh? You think that in the UK there are a statistically significant number of people dying of cancer who would have survived if they'd had more skillful doctors, radiologists and pharmacists?
Of course not! My implication was that I did not include any input from any God/god/s, prayers, or any other kind of supernatural, or magical thinking in my cure from the cancer. Doctors do everything they can to enable patients to recover fully, and because of their improving skills and equipment, work and research, increasing numbers do not die. None of the cures, or aspects of those cures, can be ascribed to any God, or spirit, etc.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
I am far more likely to compliment than criticize.
Well, yeah. One does not, and cannot, know exactly what another feels or experiences. Though, if I am honest, I need to mentally remind myself of this constantly.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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earrings
Shipmate
# 13306
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Posted
As some one going through chemo at the moment I've thought a fair bit about the language we use around cancer. The avoidance of the word, the use of the metaphor of battle and such-like. For me one of the important things has been to consider not battling, but journeying. A battle is something that can be lost or won. A journey is quite different, the outcome may not be entirely certain and it can take us to extraordinary places, some of which are welcome, others less so. But it both gives certain sense of power and reminds of vulnerability and for that reason I find it helpful.
ven bede posted...
quote:
Christians might like to consider Jesus in the garden “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” Humanly speaking Jesus gave up.
Not in my book. I had my biopsy in Holy Week and my reflections clustered very much around that image. Jesus not giving up but walking into the fear and taking up the challenge of a difficult/ impossible/ terrible journey. That's my story, we are all different but that was/is key and important for me.
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My blog musings on all sorts of stuff https://priscillavicar.wordpress.com/
Posts: 135 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Jan 2008
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