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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Salvation Contention
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
So, it's not the most original of thoughts, but it is a deep-seated conviction of mine.
The idea is that good people get to go to heaven, and bad people don't. Irrespective of their beliefs. What else could be morally just? What else could be consistent with the notion of a just and impartial arbiter of the moral, and disposer of souls, this allegedly good God, who loves all mankind, not just a conveniently agreeable segment of them?
Seems that some of these religious folks are peddling different ideas. Like you have to be a Christian (and, often, a Christian of precisely the right kind) or a Moslem (guess what? of the right kind!) or a Jew (ho hum, of the right kind...) to get to heaven. This strikes me as such a trivial belief about belief, so transparently self-serving, given that we all want everyone else to believe what we believe, and so vindicate us in the absence of evidence, that we really ought to have done with it, for the good of posterity.
So, if you're willing, let's discuss. Is it belief or moral stature that determines the quality of our after-life? If the first, just how is that fair? If the last, why does the idea get so little purchase among the religious? Could it be to do with some vested interest, maybe the exercise of power, the pension pots of retired clerics, and the upkeep of places of worship?
Best wishes, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
How can it be both? How can a 'good' non-believer be denied glory, while a 'good' believer wins it? Belief is not a function of our volition, remember. We cannot help but believe those things we think are true, or disbelieve those things we think are false. If it is not in our power to choose our beliefs, it is not justice that we be judged on them.
Cheers, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The reason for reluctance to see moral behaviour connected directly with the afterlife is that we can't earn our way to heaven by doing good works. All kinds of people do good works, for all kinds of reasons, often selfish ones - and that might include those who are looking to earn a place in heaven.
Christianity teaches self sacrifice, unconditional love which compels us to do good for the sake of other people, not for ourselves. It's uncomfortable. It teaches humility, and that it's not for any of us to decide whether we are due a place in heaven, it's for God alone. If we love and trust in God, we're content with his promise.
And so I too think it is both belief and moral stature that combine from our pov. But if we believe as Christians that those who live in love live in God, and God lives in them, then it could be that those who live a life of self-sacrificial love but who do not profess a faith may be closer to God in the afterlife than those who profess a faith but don't live in that way, looking at it from God's pov.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
My daily gospel reading the other day was the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears, perfume, and all that. It struck me that Jesus says something like (forgive my memory) 'her sins, which were many, have been forgiven, and hence she shows great love'. Then *after a bit* he says 'your sins are forgiven' - as if to confirm in her mind what her heart (OK, emotions) have already told her in her heartfelt response to intuitively-felt-truth-and-goodness - as she pours out her sorrow and love to Him, this stranger.
So for me, PV, my 'works' (and they're a shitty little cheese-paring effort, in the most part) flow out of thanks and love to God, by whom in some crazy way my sins (and they are as real as yours or Hitler's) are forgiven.
Some people can be good for a while without any God at all in mind - though IME they have a shadowy or clear idea of 'I do this because that's what goodness is' - and that's an irrational, self-causing and altogether God-like belief as far as I'm concerned.
Perhaps for more rational people than me, the right mental system of belief does open up a way into the heart of go(o)dness. But it can also take us to the point of burning people at the stake. Humble service, not so much - though God=humble service is not a connection which all religious people seem able to make.
[ 20. September 2015, 13:37: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
So, I'm not sure I'm reading your posts right, but I seem to be getting the impression that you think you can't be good without being (the right sort of) Christian. Is this really your positioning?
And, if it is, without bothering about the more tediously obvious arguments against it, would it not be fair to say that this entails that (the right sort of) belief is a means to a desired end, goodness, rather than the end in itself?
Cheers, PV.
[ 20. September 2015, 13:46: Message edited by: PilgrimVagrant ]
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
The traditional Christian view, of course, would be that entrance into the next life is all about the grace and love of Jesus Christ, rather than who is "good enough". Speculating on who does/does not "get in" is rather presumptuous, given that anyone who does get in does so thru Jesus alone and his great grace.
The reason for pursuing holiness, then, has nothing to do with earning the afterlife, and everything to do with this life. We pursue holiness, then, because we have (often thru our own disastrous trial-and-error experience) become convinced that living life our own way is a disaster, and that following Jesus' ways yields the very best possible life for us.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
The idea is that good people get to go to heaven, and bad people don't. Irrespective of their beliefs.
Yeah, that's the big myth, right there.
The Gospel teaches nothing of the sort.
What we know is that 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'
We also know that 'the wages of sin is death.'
So, the bottom line is that there ain't no one going to heaven out of goodness. None of us have it.
The good news is that 'while we were still sinners, Christ died for us' and the wonderful thing about it all is that 'the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' so that 'whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.'
So. I see no problem there.
We're all sinners.
Jesus died for us all
If we accept the unmerited and unearned gift, we can be saved.
It's a wonderfully simple Gospel message and relieves me of the burden of wondering if I'm not good enough to get there.
It also stops me thinking that I've achieved it and can boast about it.
[ 20. September 2015, 14:04: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
When's that got to be done by?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
The idea is that good people get to go to heaven, and bad people don't. Irrespective of their beliefs.
Yeah, that's the big myth, right there.
Oh yeah. The Scriptures. I wondered when that would arrive, as a substitute for rigorous enquiry.
I just have this to say. If I was kicking off a new religion, I'd make sure I had some clause around that went: Believe me, and you're saved. Disbelieve me, and you're damned.
I think this age is a little more sophisticated than that. A little more philosophically and theologically advanced. Dare I say it? That much more close to truth.
Cheers, PV.
[ 20. September 2015, 14:15: Message edited by: PilgrimVagrant ]
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
When's that got to be done by?
It seems to me that, ordinarily, if one has the capacity to repent and believe, it must be done while one has that capacity.
It must also be done before the judgment because 'people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.'
Anyway, why wait?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
What is a 'good' person and what is a 'bad' person? We all do good and bad things on a daily basis.
OK, a few sociopaths and psychopaths could come under the label of totally 'bad' with no good in them - but I would imagine the number is vanishingly small - that would make Hell a rather small and insignificant place, would it not?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Oh yeah. The Scriptures. I wondered when that would arrive, as a substitute for rigorous enquiry.
Well, seeing 'The Scriptures' are the only place you'll find anything about going to heaven and any kind of Christian faith, I'm afraid it's all you got - even with any enquiry, rigorous or otherwise!
You seem to want an intellectual, philosophical, academically peer-reviewed and scientifically watertight remedy for your question.
Well I'm sorry for your loss; Jesus said you've got to become like a little child in order to see the Kingdom of God, Paul spoke about Greeks who, like you, see the Cross as foolishness.
No one ever got to heaven by educational achievement. Sorry, you need faith.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The traditional Christian view, of course, would be that entrance into the next life is all about the grace and love of Jesus Christ, rather than who is "good enough"
Indeed. The topic of this thread, though, is the criteria Jesus uses to cast His choices. This one to bliss, that one to torment. It is, I think, a valid question for anyone to ask, given its relationship to the meaning of life.
Best wishes, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's still unfair Boogie. Who chooses to be a psycho?
So Mudfrog, all Islam, all Hindoostan, all animists, Confucians, Buddhists, Neanderthals and the other billions who have lived for the past two hundred thousand years and the vast preponderance of at best nominal Christians throughout all of Christendom, they will have had their chance?
And Judgement is really eternally bad news unless you come from Sodom and Gomorrah?
[ 20. September 2015, 14:26: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Interesting OP, PilgrimVagrant. I don't think that 'good people go to heaven' is a Christian view, although I am not one now. I think Mudfrog is more accurate.
But one can start to deconstruct the whole thing - what is heaven? I've been influenced by Eastern religion, and I see this as non-ego, or trans-ego, or non-dualism, blah blah blah. Or you can let go of all that stuff also. As they say in Zen, the rain tends to be wet.
But then after all, for me now, there is no problem left in life, so no solution required. So it goes.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Oh yeah. The Scriptures. I wondered when that would arrive, as a substitute for rigorous enquiry.
Well, seeing 'The Scriptures' are the only place you'll find anything about going to heaven and any kind of Christian faith, I'm afraid it's all you got - even with any enquiry, rigorous or otherwise!
You seem to want an intellectual, philosophical, academically peer-reviewed and scientifically watertight remedy for your question.
Dear Mudfrog. Surprising as it may seem to you, I am a believer. I just want my faith consistent with my intellect, philosophy, theology, science, etc. I seek a coherent, comprehensive, consilient truth. I am hoping this discussion might lead that way.
Best wishes, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I simply think you are looking for an alternative to the Christian doctrine of repentance and faith.
'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.'
That's the way to eternal life. I can't understand why that isn't acceptable to you.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Just make it up PV.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's still unfair Boogie. Who chooses to be a psycho?
So Mudfrog, all Islam, all Hindoostan, all animists, Confucians, Buddhists, Neanderthals and the other billions who have lived for the past two hundred thousand years and the vast preponderance of at best nominal Christians throughout all of Christendom, they will have had their chance?
And Judgement is really eternally bad news unless you come from Sodom and Gomorrah?
I knew you would 'go there'; and that's why in my reply to you I wrote "ordinarily, if one has the capacity to repent and believe..."
This is a whole new subject, that of 'what of those who have never heard...?'
Do we really want this huge tangent?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's still unfair Boogie. Who chooses to be a psycho?
I agree it's unfair - but I can't think of anyone else who could conceivably be labelled 'bad'. We are all both good and bad.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Indeed. The topic of this thread, though, is the criteria Jesus uses to cast His choices. This one to bliss, that one to torment. It is, I think, a valid question for anyone to ask, given its relationship to the meaning of life.
It may be a 'valid question' from our end of the telescope, but it's framed entirely from the way we think things ought to be, from our way of looking at things, not God's. It's expecting and demanding that he be like us, that he fit in with our presumptions. That's putting the universe the wrong way round.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Oh yeah. The Scriptures. I wondered when that would arrive, as a substitute for rigorous enquiry.
Well, seeing 'The Scriptures' are the only place you'll find anything about going to heaven and any kind of Christian faith, I'm afraid it's all you got - even with any enquiry, rigorous or otherwise!
You seem to want an intellectual, philosophical, academically peer-reviewed and scientifically watertight remedy for your question.
Dear Mudfrog. Surprising as it may seem to you, I am a believer. I just want my faith consistent with my intellect, philosophy, theology, science, etc. I seek a coherent, comprehensive, consilient truth. I am hoping this discussion might lead that way.
Best wishes, PV.
I apologise if I came over as unhelpful or combative.
All I am saying is that salvation - the 'act', if you like, of 'getting saved' is not an intellectual one - it's a simple, childlike trust in Christ. If it were no so, only philosophers and theologians would be saved.
Simple repentance and faith, however, can (and often does) lead to great depths of intellectual rigour over Scripture, doctrine and all the other fields of study around religion and ethics.
[ 20. September 2015, 14:37: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Indeed. The topic of this thread, though, is the criteria Jesus uses to cast His choices. This one to bliss, that one to torment. It is, I think, a valid question for anyone to ask, given its relationship to the meaning of life.
It may be a 'valid question' from our end of the telescope, but it's framed entirely from the way we think things ought to be, from our way of looking at things, not God's. It's expecting and demanding that he be like us, that he fit in with our presumptions. That's putting the universe the wrong way round.
To be just, a just disposal needs to be seen to be just. There is no point in saying God is Just! but His justice is not like our justice. That is like saying God is Red! but His red is not like our red.
Best wishes, PV.
[ 20. September 2015, 14:51: Message edited by: PilgrimVagrant ]
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
To be just, a just disposal needs to be seen to be just. There is no point in saying God is Just! but His justice is not like our justice. That is like saying God is Red! but His red is not like our red.
Best wishes, PV.
Isn't there?
You don't think there is something about perspective? I experience the weather in a particular way at any given moment, but it is hard to say this is "the weather" in my town, county or country.
One can believe that God is just without understanding the full context within which he is operating or how any individual action is marked just. That's pretty obvious, I'd think.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Oh yeah. The Scriptures. I wondered when that would arrive, as a substitute for rigorous enquiry.
Well, seeing 'The Scriptures' are the only place you'll find anything about going to heaven and any kind of Christian faith, I'm afraid it's all you got - even with any enquiry, rigorous or otherwise!
You seem to want an intellectual, philosophical, academically peer-reviewed and scientifically watertight remedy for your question.
Dear Mudfrog. Surprising as it may seem to you, I am a believer. I just want my faith consistent with my intellect, philosophy, theology, science, etc. I seek a coherent, comprehensive, consilient truth. I am hoping this discussion might lead that way.
Best wishes, PV.
I apologise if I came over as unhelpful or combative.
All I am saying is that salvation - the 'act', if you like, of 'getting saved' is not an intellectual one - it's a simple, childlike trust in Christ. If it were no so, only philosophers and theologians would be saved.
Simple repentance and faith, however, can (and often does) lead to great depths of intellectual rigour over Scripture, doctrine and all the other fields of study around religion and ethics.
Yes, I would agree with much of this, but I still find it necessary to ask this most fundamental question in the OP. Is this supposedly Salvation act - basically, begging for God's help - the thing that gets us into heaven? If so, why? Does God want us diminished before He will accept us? Or, does He want people, who, come Judgement Day, will look Him in the eye, fearless and confident, and say, 'Now what was with the Amelakite genocide?'
I know which, if I were God, I would prefer.
Cheers, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The traditional Christian view, of course, would be that entrance into the next life is all about the grace and love of Jesus Christ, rather than who is "good enough"
Indeed. The topic of this thread, though, is the criteria Jesus uses to cast His choices. This one to bliss, that one to torment. It is, I think, a valid question for anyone to ask, given its relationship to the meaning of life.
Best wishes, PV.
But again, the traditional Christian view is that Jesus doesn't do this on the basis of "who is good enough".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mudfrog
So as only about 3% on a good day have that capacity, in fact far less than that to any meaningful degree, why is God so harsh ON that <<3%? If the vast majority can't be judged, what's there to worry about? Is the assurance of salvation for the <<3% who worry about it? The sick who need a doctor? The >>97% are assured of a bearable JUDGEMENT day along with those of Sodom and Gomorrah?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The traditional Christian view, of course, would be that entrance into the next life is all about the grace and love of Jesus Christ, rather than who is "good enough"
Indeed. The topic of this thread, though, is the criteria Jesus uses to cast His choices. This one to bliss, that one to torment. It is, I think, a valid question for anyone to ask, given its relationship to the meaning of life.
Best wishes, PV.
But again, the traditional Christian view is that Jesus doesn't do this on the basis of "who is good enough".
Indeed not. I may be wrong, but as far as I recall, Christians believe believing Christians get promoted heavenward, at the end of days. Which takes me right back to the OP, and is getting circular. So, let us attempt to demolish this unedifying spiral and ask: what rational, theological or philosophical justification exists for such a belief?
Cheers, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Just make it up PV.
Ha Ha. You mean, like the church fathers?
Cheers, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Of course mate. We stand on those giants' shoulders in that. We can therefore make up better stuff as we are an nth further along the incredibly long, low trajectory of the moral universe thanks to them.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
To be just, a just disposal needs to be seen to be just. There is no point in saying God is Just! but His justice is not like our justice. That is like saying God is Red! but His red is not like our red.
Best wishes, PV.
Isn't there?
You don't think there is something about perspective? I experience the weather in a particular way at any given moment, but it is hard to say this is "the weather" in my town, county or country.
One can believe that God is just without understanding the full context within which he is operating or how any individual action is marked just. That's pretty obvious, I'd think.
Just so. But even given the universal context of God, and the necessarily partial one of humanity, our two concepts of justice must have some principles in common. They cannot be completely different, completely divisible. And so, to prove His competence, God requires to be accountable. For me, an unaccountable God with alien conceptions of Justice is a monster to be resisted, not an object deserving our devotion.
Cheers, PV.
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You don't think there is something about perspective? I experience the weather in a particular way at any given moment, but it is hard to say this is "the weather" in my town, county or country.
This is very confusing. It's not difficult at all to look out my window and say "it's cloudy" or "it's raining" or "the sun is shining." And to reasonably expect that other people in my town are experiencing pretty much the same thing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The reason for reluctance to see moral behaviour connected directly with the afterlife is that we can't earn our way to heaven by doing good works. All kinds of people do good works, for all kinds of reasons, often selfish ones - and that might include those who are looking to earn a place in heaven.
Yes, I accept all this. But I think there is a difference between doing good, where some have opportunities of scale others lack, and being good, where we all have equal opportunity. The distinction is between what one does, and what one is. My proposal is that we get judged on what we are.
Cheers, PV
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This is very confusing. It's not difficult at all to look out my window and say "it's cloudy" or "it's raining" or "the sun is shining." And to reasonably expect that other people in my town are experiencing pretty much the same thing.
My point is that what we experience is not the totality of "the weather", what we understand by justice is not the totality of "justice". That's all.
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arse
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I don't see how you can have a discussion about the actions of God without reference to revelation. What we know about God is what God has chosen to reveal. So arguing from Scripture (Mudfrog) or Tradition (Cliffdweller) is not only valid but necessary.
It's all very well to say, "God is just. I believe X is unjust. Therefore God would never do X.", but if our ideas about justice are even a little off - by which I mean differ from God's - then we are in danger of coming to wrong conclusions. Which is fine if all we're doing is saying, "here's what I'd do if I were in charge" but if we're talking about the real God who actually exists external to our thoughts* then we need more information that simply what seems logical to us.
Of course that opens a whole can of worms about which sources of revelation are reliable...
(*assuming we believe in such a being. But if we don't the whole 'salvation' thing is moot isn't it?)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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PilgrimVagrant
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# 18442
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Posted
Indeed, Paul. But we can say something along the lines of: it is a fundamental principle of justice that it metes out an understandably just end. That those who receive justice, understand why their end is just. I cannot condone any idea of justice that thinks it above such a principle, which, to its subjects, would in such an instance seem arbitrary, and therefore not justice, at all. Let justice be done; but letting it be known to be done is quite as important. Otherwise, for us poor delinquents, anything goes. And what we get might not be justice at all, but whim, and how are we to tell the difference?
Cheers, PV.
[ 20. September 2015, 18:14: Message edited by: PilgrimVagrant ]
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Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Let justice be done; but letting it be known to be done is quite as important. Otherwise, for us poor delinquents, anything goes. And what we get might not be justice at all, but whim, and how are we to tell the difference?
This is very important, I think. It's one thing to be told, "You will be graded, and here are the rubrics according to which you will be graded. Behave accordingly, and you will get a good grade."
It's quite another to be told, "You will be graded but we're not telling you on what. But if your behavior isn't up to snuff, you will fail, and failing will be awful."
The latter isn't anything like justice.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
The line drawn between the polarized points of scripture and tradition is hardly the only geometry allowed Paul.
And why do we need more information or ANY revelation, whatever that is?
Apart from in Christ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
PV, I'm having a hard time knowing where to start. Boogie was right in pointing out that there is good and bad in everybody, and one consequence of that is to put the whole "do good and earn your way to salvation" right out of court. There simply isn't anybody out there who could meet that challenge. Unless you think God grades on a curve, and gives extra points for effort?
The whole points-earning contest model is a mistake to start with. The very word "salvation" implies that there is something you need to be saved from, something you can't manage for yourself.
If you want a better analogy, try something like a horrible car accident, and God is pulling us out of the crash. Or a mirror with a crack in it--one which will only spread as time goes on. That mirror isn't going to fix itself--only the glassblower can melt it down and recast it, whole again.
You seem to think that those who say "You must trust in Jesus to be saved" are therefore claiming some sort of moral superiority for those who do believe over those who do not. This is totally wrong. The statement is much closer to "you must allow the firemen to pull you out of the fire" or "you must allow the surgeon to save your life." There is nothing the least bit superior about those who trust in Christ, anymore than there is about the burn victim or stroke victim. The superiority, the glory, is all God's.
Indeed, the situation of the Christian is such a lowly one that it is common to see the so-called "dregs of society" latching on to Jesus--the poor, the drug users, the dysfunctional, the outcasts. It's much easier to break down and admit you need a Savior when you're out in the pigpen feeding the hogs. Those who still have illusions of "I can do it myself"--well, they have no need or wish for Jesus.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Indeed, Paul. But we can say something along the lines of: it is a fundamental principle of justice that it metes out an understandably just end. That those who receive justice, understand why their end is just. I cannot condone any idea of justice that thinks it above such a principle, which, to its subjects, would in such an instance seem arbitrary, and therefore not justice, at all. Let justice be done; but letting it be known to be done is quite as important. Otherwise, for us poor delinquents, anything goes. And what we get might not be justice at all, but whim, and how are we to tell the difference?
All eminently reasonable and it's not that I disagree with it per se, but it's not me that's got to agree or disagree. I don't hold the keys to heaven and hell.
Or if I do, it's been made clear to me yet.
If - and I hope/pray/trust this is not the case - God's idea of justice is based on whim, is fundamentally unfair in my view of the world, then it's not like I'm in a position to bring God into line. So I need to start from trying to work out what's true.
FWIW I'm a very long way from having settled that for myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The line drawn between the polarized points of scripture and tradition is hardly the only geometry allowed Paul.
a) I don't consider them poles apart. To be valid they necessarily need to be congruent or at least non-contradictory.
b) I'm not saying they're they only sources allowed I'm saying that we need some sources outside reason alone.
quote:
And why do we need more information or ANY revelation, whatever that is?
For the reason I said in my post - if God is externally real then it's possible for things we think about God to be true or false. If God is just a concept then it doesn't really matter.
quote:
Apart from in Christ?
How do I know who or what Christ is aside from information passed down to me via scripture and tradition?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Yes, I would agree with much of this, but I still find it necessary to ask this most fundamental question in the OP. Is this supposedly Salvation act - basically, begging for God's help - the thing that gets us into heaven? If so, why? Does God want us diminished before He will accept us? Or, does He want people, who, come Judgement Day, will look Him in the eye, fearless and confident, and say, 'Now what was with the Amelakite genocide?'
I know which, if I were God, I would prefer.
Cheers, PV.
Okay, I like this, because it points up the contrast so beautifully. You appear to be imagining us as standing on a more or less equal footing with God--free either to grovel or to spit in his eye and walk away--full of self respect and free agency.
So now I've got a question for you--have you ever heard of the medical term "anasognosia"? Anasognosia is what you have when a person is dreadfully impaired by some disease and yet insists that he is entirely well, happy, healthy, and good to go--and the rest of the world is in error. It's what I saw a year ago when we went to visit a friend with profound mental illness who was sitting on his porch in his own shit, covered in sores, yellow with jaundice and drunk as a lord--and absolutely convinced he needed no help at all. It's what I saw in an alcoholic relative who had lost his entire family, his health, his work, his finances, and his comfort, and was still dead set on sending away those who would care for him, as he didn't need help. There was yet another guy we loved who was absolutely totally convinced he had the magical powers to open the locked doors of the mental hospital. He kept saying most politely to the doors, "Open, please" for hours on end. It was heartbreaking.
And this is the state of the human race without God.
Seriously, look around you. Climate change--but very little change in the hearts of people who caused it. Refugees everywhere. Nuclear politics. Inner city slums. Child abuse and elder abuse. Rape which is so prevalent that I daresay you know at least thirty victims yourself, if they were willing to tell you.
Is this a healthy species? I think not.
We need a Savior.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I simply think you are looking for an alternative to the Christian doctrine of repentance and faith.
Well I think that it's more that Christianity looks for an alternative, or addition, to the Jewish doctrine of repentance and faith. They believe, and I would tend to agree, that a personal act of repentance is enough to restore the divine image in which we were created. Faith in this context, is cleaving to God with all one's being. The idea that we're totally depraved and unable to even seek God's mercy is a hangover from Augustine's Manichean past, which was vigorously taken up by Calvin.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
We need a Savior.
Why?
"And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.(Micah 6:8)
Jesus said if you want mercy then show mercy. If you want forgiveness then give forgiveness unlimited. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Why isn't that enough?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
So I have been puzzling over this question because Jesus said this
This would seem to support PV's essential point in the OP
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
The idea is that good people get to go to heaven, and bad people don't. Irrespective of their beliefs.
(Ignoring the fact that the inheritance that Jesus is speaking of is not heaven or at least not a heaven separate from a renewed earth)
But I'm struggling because I'm one of those people who believes (I know, I know that word again) that faith in Christ is important too. Would welcome any views on how these words of Jesus relate to the discussion in this thread.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
The idea is that good people get to go to heaven, and bad people don't. Irrespective of their beliefs. What else could be morally just?
I don't see how that's morally just. No matter how morally bad you are, you don't deserve hell. No matter how morally good you are, you don't deserve heaven.
In any case, Christianity is not about justice but about mercy, which trumps justice.
I don't think salvation is confined to people who are Christians. I'm of the persuasion that thinks we may hope that all shall be saved. But I don't think justice has anything to do with it. The thought that the morally good go to heaven smacks to me of the cultists in Pratchett who are told that under the new government the deserving will get to ride in coaches...
"There was a thoughtful pause in the conversation as the assembled Brethren mentally divided the universe into the deserving and the undeserving, and put themselves on the appropriate side."
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Would welcome any views on how these words of Jesus relate to the discussion in this thread.
Well I would say that it clearly shows that Jesus, in keeping with his culture, believed that God would judge people's deeds. Indeed I don't see any other way it could be interpreted. Most of the quotes used to support a belief in eternal damnation come from Matthew, but they are all related to deeds, good or bad. In Romans 10:9 Paul writes "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." But saved from what? For Paul, "the wages of sin is death." (Rom 6:23) not eternal damnation.
So you can take two separate ideas, one given by Jesus that good deeds save you from hell, and one given by Paul that belief in Jesus saves you from death, and synthesise them into a belief that belief in Jesus saves you from hell. Only that isn't what Scripture actually says. At best it's a flimsy interpretation of Scripture.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If you imagine there's no heaven, and regulate your personal behaviour because it is intrinsically better to do good things than bad and harming things, we may be able to let heaven take care of itself.
In this view, the salvation part of Christianity - as it may exist - is less important the moral and ethical example of how to live. God doesn't have to be viewed as a rigid brute who cannot tolerate the least transgression, and requires the excruciating death of an innocent to satisfy his blood lust (shades of the God-Moloch-bitch worshipped by Joshua and a host of other like-minded assholes in the OT). Rather, that the trajectory of Jesus' life, like so many after him, would have to lead to our decision to exterminate him, inevitably. God didn't require it, just as God doesn't require our behaviour. The universe is riddled through with free will, and we act out our lives, with the nuances of heaven and any form judgement left only to the imaginations of us and those who've gone before us.
Like a reverse sort of Sophie's Choice**, we can choose to accompany those bound for hell, so as to provide comfort.
** In William Styron's novel (the movie does not do Styron's prose justice, one of the best 20th century novels), Sophie is given the choice on the railway platform which of her two children to send to the gas at Auschwitz, and which one to save. The choice is magnificently obscene and so is her life after, as she says (from my memory), later when at additional extremity: "fuck Gotte and all his hande work". I think she's correct to dismiss God entirely if the death of Jesus as man or child is a requirement of God to provide anyone deserving or otherwise with salvation. In the wonderland of faith, is it more obscene to hold that "everyone has won and all must have prizes" than to hold that God must have Jesus' blood? Unless the dodo is me, I say prizes for all.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
The idea is that good people get to go to heaven, and bad people don't. Irrespective of their beliefs. What else could be morally just?
I don't see how that's morally just. No matter how morally bad you are, you don't deserve hell. No matter how morally good you are, you don't deserve heaven.
In any case, Christianity is not about justice but about mercy, which trumps justice.
I don't think salvation is confined to people who are Christians. I'm of the persuasion that thinks we may hope that all shall be saved. But I don't think justice has anything to do with it. The thought that the morally good go to heaven smacks to me of the cultists in Pratchett who are told that under the new government the deserving will get to ride in coaches...
"There was a thoughtful pause in the conversation as the assembled Brethren mentally divided the universe into the deserving and the undeserving, and put themselves on the appropriate side."
This.
I think part of the problem is linguistic-- we tend to think of "justice" as "getting what's fair." So we think it is "just" for a really "bad" (however we might define that) person to be punished (jail time, maybe even death penalty depending on your persuasion), and for a really "good" (however we might define that) person to be rewarded. That's how the world works-- or it's how we wish the world worked-- and so that's what we want or expect from God. And, of course, we think "good" = like me and "bad" = does things I wouldn't consider doing.
But that doesn't seem to be how the Bible defines "justice". "Justice" in the Bible seems to be closer to "setting things right." Christians believe, based on what has been revealed in Scripture, that one day Christ will return to set all things right-- to set things the way they should be. That is justice-- rightness, wholeness, re-creation, restoration. A new heaven, and a new earth. Where "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." That I think is what the sheep & goats parable is about-- it's a glimpse of what things will look like when they are finally "set right"-- i.e. compassion, generosity, kindness-- the fruits of the Spirit. And in that spirit, I would pray with Dafyd that there might be no goats at all on that final day, but only sheep who willingly enter into the life that Jesus invites them to in the Kingdom-- even if they are doing so for the very first time on that final day.
All of which has nothing to do with "being fair" or "punishing evil and rewarding good." Rather, it is, as Lamb Chopped said, about salvation. Or, as NT Wright puts it, "God's great rescue plan."
[ 20. September 2015, 21:55: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
** In William Styron's novel (the movie does not do Styron's prose justice, one of the best 20th century novels), Sophie is given the choice on the railway platform which of her two children to send to the gas at Auschwitz, and which one to save. The choice is magnificently obscene and so is her life after, as she says (from my memory), later when at additional extremity: "fuck Gotte and all his hande work". I think she's correct to dismiss God entirely if the death of Jesus as man or child is a requirement of God to provide anyone deserving or otherwise with salvation. In the wonderland of faith, is it more obscene to hold that "everyone has won and all must have prizes" than to hold that God must have Jesus' blood? Unless the dodo is me, I say prizes for all.
Any time we tread on the sacred soil of discussing the Trinity, we are in grave danger (if not certainty) of hitting on some heretical doctrine or another). Knowing that, I would still say...
If we stress the separation of the persons of the Godhead, then the cross seems like the most horrific form of child-abuse.
But if we allow for greater unity in the persons of the Godhead, then it is something else altogether. As in the ancient biblical metaphor of Christus victor, it's not some angry, vengeful God demanding a blood sacrifice and not terribly choosy about where it comes from. Rather, it is a loving, sacrificial God who enters willingly into suffering and into death itself, in order to declare victory over both sin and death.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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