homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Helicopter parents are harming their kids. Stop it! (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Helicopter parents are harming their kids. Stop it!
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As mentioned above, it's just the default.

Fair enough. (My experience with the US has been to be surprised at how many people in the "land of the free" feel obliged to do the default thing without questioning it.)

quote:

coming here on a shoestring, [..] even a small bump in costs is out of the question.

Sure - but there are also plenty of students for whom a 10-20% bump in room rent would be manageable.

quote:
The real game-changer has been more of our students living at home and commuting. The admin at the univ where I teach are bummed by this [..]
That kind of thing gets me angry very quickly. It is reasonable to require undergraduates to live within a reasonable commute of the university buildings. It is not reasonable to make any further requirements.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As mentioned above, it's just the default.

Fair enough. (My experience with the US has been to be surprised at how many people in the "land of the free" feel obliged to do the default thing without questioning it.)

quote:

coming here on a shoestring, [..] even a small bump in costs is out of the question.

Sure - but there are also plenty of students for whom a 10-20% bump in room rent would be manageable.

quote:
The real game-changer has been more of our students living at home and commuting. The admin at the univ where I teach are bummed by this [..]
That kind of thing gets me angry very quickly. It is reasonable to require undergraduates to live within a reasonable commute of the university buildings. It is not reasonable to make any further requirements.

LC, I don't get it. You sound almost angry that people would choose to go into this sort of housing. Not that they are forced--most places offer a choice, if you can swing the cost--but that they do it at all. Why?

In case it's a translation thing, "bummed out" means "made mildly unhappy"--not "enraged" or "irate." There is a real difference in the atmosphere between a university where most students are residential and one where most commute. For one thing, there is often much less of a social connection among students--they come to class and then go home to do everything else, including socializing. It's natural for university staff to miss the old "feel" of a school, regardless of which direction the change comes in.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There's quite a lot of evidence for better academic and social outcomes among students who live on campus. Retention and graduation rates are also higher. The underlying factor is their level of involvement - students living in residence on campus have more time and opportunities to be engaged on campus - whether it's clubs, office hours, social events, workshops, lectures, museums, performing arts, sports teams, study groups - than commuting students. It's not just about proximity and convenience - students also report more of a sense of belonging to a community or being a part of the institution. And if it costs more than living in a basement, commuting 3 hours every day and eating ramen every night, I think it's worth spending the extra bucks to be able to suck up as many opportunities and experiences as possible in those four years.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
LC, I don't get it. You sound almost angry that people would choose to go into this sort of housing.

No, not at all. As it happens, I think living in university accommodation is a good idea. I agree with most of the things that Soror Magna mentioned, which is why I made the choices I made when I was a student.

But I do not agree with any attempt to put pressure on people to make that choice, and I rather had the impression from cliffdweller's post that her university wished to pressure people to live in. It's people trying to pressure others into making a certain choice "for their own good" that makes me angry.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
The real game-changer has been more of our students living at home and commuting. The admin at the univ where I teach are bummed by this [..]
That kind of thing gets me angry very quickly. It is reasonable to require undergraduates to live within a reasonable commute of the university buildings. It is not reasonable to make any further requirements.
To be fair, they are not required to live on campus-- and they don't, hence the bumming of the admin. And the admin in question (who shall remain nameless-- i.e. my boss) was rightly concerned because residential students tend to report much higher student satisfaction than commuters (as detailed above). But my response was similar to yours (i.e. "instead of spending $X million on a new dorm then trying to entice them to borrow more $$ to live there, how about we spend a much smaller amount of $$ trying to improve the commuter experience?"). It also occurs to me that the commuter satisfaction might be lower simply because school plays a smaller role in their lives-- i.e. school is good but just one small aspect of many others (social, family, work, and church life) whereas for residential students it tends to become all those things. So commuters are having a good experience-- it's just somewhere else.

[ 27. September 2015, 04:00: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

But I do not agree with any attempt to put pressure on people to make that choice, and I rather had the impression from cliffdweller's post that her university wished to pressure people to live in. It's people trying to pressure others into making a certain choice "for their own good" that makes me angry.

My sons both spent a lot of time at university and colleges of one sort or another, in various parts of the country. Both came home for their Masters year as it was cheaper. Both enjoyed being in halls for the first year and then shared houses.

I think it does them good to get away from home. It did me - I had no idea just how much my Mum did for me 'till I moved out at 18!

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I agree. it does you a huge amount of good to get away from home when you're 18. I knew a chap who went to university in his home town, simply because it had just about the best department in the country for what he wanted to do. He behaved exactly as if he had come from soemwhere 200 miles away: gave up playing football for his town team and played for the university, drank in different pubs, went home for a meal or the weekend from tiem to time of course,but no more than anyone else would have done, and so on. He said it worked very well.
The other thing I discovered when I went to university was that my mother missed having me around. That did surprise me.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Going away for college at 17 was certainly a good experience for me, as it was for my two older kids (one's still at home). But when it means adding an additional $10K annually to your student debt, it might be a luxury. And it also occurs to me that it's a particular cultural value-- one that fits well with white middle-and-upper class values. Most of our students who resist moving on campus come from other cultures that have a much stronger emphasis on family, living at home, spending time with family, is part of that cultural norm. Yes, they continue to experience the benefits of having a parent who does things like cook meals or throw in a load of laundry, but usually they have other responsibilities as well-- picking up younger siblings from school, caring for elderly grandparents, etc. I find these students, while less connected to the college, but are more connected to their communities. While there may seem to be something "missing" from their college experience, I wonder if they might do better post-college, having spent the last 4+ years building a full and balanced life of family, work, and church rather than living in a collegiate cocoon. There are lots of ways of living in the world, including lots of ways of getting an education.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am realizing a big factor. Are some parents close to their children to the pointvof no privacy. What the family therapists label "enmeshed"? The concept as I understand is that the child wheel turns at all and parent's wheel cogs are so closely entwined it necessarily turns as well, and feels every little bump and jar.

Sounds like perhaps some parents need to let kids run the clutch (disengage their wheel).

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
...Most of our students who resist moving on campus come from other cultures that have a much stronger emphasis on family, living at home, spending time with family, is part of that cultural norm. Yes, they continue to experience the benefits of having a parent who does things like cook meals or throw in a load of laundry, but usually they have other responsibilities as well-- picking up younger siblings from school, caring for elderly grandparents, etc. I find these students, while less connected to the college, but are more connected to their communities. While there may seem to be something "missing" from their college experience, I wonder if they might do better post-college, having spent the last 4+ years building a full and balanced life of family, work, and church rather than living in a collegiate cocoon. There are lots of ways of living in the world, including lots of ways of getting an education.

I used to teach quite a few students like that here in South Wales. I think it would have done them a world of good to get away from that background for a bit- especially if they were, as most of them were, female. Often they were just too plugged into the taken for grantedness of a certain type of South Walian working class culture, with its rather narrow horizons, a lack of confidence anywhere out of reach, perhaps sight, of their mam, and a heap of assumptions that it would be the daughter's / sister's duty to drop everything, including bits of university study, and help out if required. My boss- who was I think originally from a background not too dissimilar to them- used to say that what we had to do with a lot of them was to get their heads off the estates. We managed to do that with quite a lot of them and those often turned out pretty well. But they often found it hard work getting there.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
LC, I don't get it. You sound almost angry that people would choose to go into this sort of housing.

No, not at all. As it happens, I think living in university accommodation is a good idea. I agree with most of the things that Soror Magna mentioned, which is why I made the choices I made when I was a student.

But I do not agree with any attempt to put pressure on people to make that choice, and I rather had the impression from cliffdweller's post that her university wished to pressure people to live in. It's people trying to pressure others into making a certain choice "for their own good" that makes me angry.

I got the same impression of indignance, and I also got no sense in cliffdweller's use of the word " bummed" that anyone was coercing anything-- in fact, " bummed" implies a sort of resignation.

I finished my education by commuting to a local university, and I was not petitioned or punished in any way in relation to campus accomodations. It is simply a box you check on a form. In fact, the school devoted much of the campus parking to the exclusive use of commuter students-- to the loud complaints of the dorm students.

The only coercion that happens is an attractive price and a parent on a limited budget.

[ 27. September 2015, 16:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is very limited on-campus accommodation in many Canadian universities, and fraternities/sororities are frequently illegal under provincial university acts. There are usually no affiliated or federated college housing either. The usual is to find people to share accommodation with, off campus. Strangers or linked via third or fourth hand people.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That is becoming very popular around here (I live not far from UCSF-- craigslist ads are often aimed directly at university students)

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

 - Posted      Profile for John Holding   Email John Holding   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When I attended the provincial university in the 1960s, the vast majority of students came from the city in which it was located and lived at home. Residences were for foreign students, for students from northern Manitoba and from other parts of Canada. It would not have occurred to most of us to look to live away from home, certainly in the first couple of years.

And your know, sports happened, and socializing occurred. (Of course, it was illegal for undergrads to drink in those days.) Because, by and large, people didn't come in for classes and then go home -- they stayed around in libraries, cafeterias, gyms and common rooms.

John

Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

 - Posted      Profile for Twilight     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've always been surprised at the general lack of care for on campus students. Kids go from being completely under their parents control to almost total independence in such a short time.

When I was in college in the mid 1965 age 17, the dorms were not co-ed and safer than now but even so no one really paid much attention to us. My parents thought that since they had paid for tuition, room and board, they could send me off without a penny and all would be fine. Running out of pens or soap was a bit of a crises. Then the second semester started and they paid the tuition part forgetting about "board." So I just went without food except for the random offerings of my roommate. Fortunately my brain, always a bit day dreamy quit working altogether so I flunked out mid-term saving me from starving to death, but I did go home weighing about 97 pounds.

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So much depends on how the parents raise you. When I was twelve I was already babysitting my younger siblings, making them dinner, doing laundry, and basically any and all household chores. My son is 14 and can do laundry, cook and clean, and handle a grocery store trip or a visit to a restaurant without parental supervision. We started him out young (paying for stuff in restaurants at age 7--funny watching the cashiers look OVER his head as he stood in line!) and he developed a lot of knowledge and self-confidence. I expect he'll handle college just fine, though I plan to be available of course if he needs me.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
...by and large, people didn't come in for classes and then go home -- they stayed around in libraries, cafeterias, gyms and common rooms.

John

I think that having these shared spaces is importnat. Where I taught most recently we had, of course, a library (of sorts), a couple of coffee shjops, and a gym. But a lot of my students came in for classes and then went, and I'm afraid that the courses that I taught on were even arranged to support that model, with lots of etcahign crammed into two or three days a week. This was I think supposed to be supportive of stiudents who had family responsibilities or part-time work, especially work related to what they were studying, but it did rather engender a part-time culture among many supposedly full-time students: you would hear full-time students say that they didn't want a tutorial or a supervision on such and such a day because 'that's not one of the days I'm in college'. Eh? You're supposed to be full-time, and the council is certainly funding you as a full-time student
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
When I attended the provincial university in the 1960s, the vast majority of students came from the city in which it was located and lived at home. Residences were for foreign students, for students from northern Manitoba and from other parts of Canada. It would not have occurred to most of us to look to live away from home, certainly in the first couple of years.

And your know, sports happened, and socializing occurred. (Of course, it was illegal for undergrads to drink in those days.) Because, by and large, people didn't come in for classes and then go home -- they stayed around in libraries, cafeterias, gyms and common rooms.

John

Much the same here when I was at Uni, but those living in a college included those from country areas of the State as well. Almost no-one from metropolitan Sydney lived in college then - quite a change to now, when several of those at school with Dlet stayed in college rather than take the the oh-so-tiring train trip.

Not sure what Albertus means abut the council paying for full time attendance. I did a combined course in Arts and Law. For the first 3 years (2 of Arts, i of Law), I was a full-time student, but had a part-time job with one of the large Sydney department stores. Plenty of time for contacts beyond lectures, and of course once I turned 18 I could go to licensed premises. For my last 3 years, my Law course was counted as full-time, but I also worked in what was counted as full-time articles. Lectures 8 to 10, work to 1, tutorial or a lecture until 2, back to work until 4 and then another couple of hours lectures. After then, perhaps a quick bite to eat and off to the library - perhaps work if something urgent was on. And the Law School was then not on the university campus, but in the Sydney CBD.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Our home students are (mostly) eligible for loans which cover their fees and I think, if they meet the means test, some of their maintenance, and these are paid out by the local authority. And certainly Welsh students get their fees subsidised by the Welsh Government (OK, not the local council) and their fees will reflect their full or part time status.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

 - Posted      Profile for la vie en rouge     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My university had mostly single rooms, with a few (cheaper) twins. IME the people who shared usually didn’t have a problem with it because they didn’t have their own room at home either – they were often used to sharing with a sibling.

Back on helicoptering, even in my day (15 years ago, give or take), I was one of the few students who stayed on campus at the weekends. My family were in the Midlands and the University was in Surrey so it was too far for me to go home more than once or twice a term. Most of the other students were from the home counties and the majority of them went home most weekends. I’m not sure it helped them grow into autonomous adults. They certainly settled much less quickly.

--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France

Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I agree. it does you a huge amount of good to get away from home when you're 18.

As a teenager I lived in London; when applying for Uni. one of my choices was Imperial College. My parents had a friend who was a lecturer there (in a different department to the one I was applying for) and he offered to show me round one Saturday.

We had a pleasant morning but then he turned to me and said, "Don't come here". I was surprised, knowing the College's reputation, and he told me that he believed getting away from home and joining in with student life was a fundamental part of the University experience.

Well, I did get offered a place at the College and - to my school's dismay! - I turned it down and went to Southampton instead. I never once regretted my decision.

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At Virginia Tech there are about 28,000 students, and less than 10,000 live on campus. The rest live in rented spaces around Blacksburg and adjacent towns. There are extensive bus routes, and buses are free for the students.

After the shootings in 2007, many parents descended on Blacksburg to take their sons or daughters home for the week when classes were cancelled. Quite a few students refused to leave; they wanted to be here with their fellow students.

There is a very strong sense of cohesion in the university community.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, there are so many factors that it varies tremendously from university to university, never mind country to country. But this allows kids to shop for something that will suit them. If you want a college where there is a powerful campus culture and life you can find that. If you want an urban college experience where much of the life takes place off campus that can be found too.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313

 - Posted      Profile for HCH   Email HCH   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There are many comments here about where college students live. You can also debate where the faculty should live. There is a definite negative effect, a loss of community, if faculty live at a substantial distance and commute.

I once applied for (but did not get) a job at a small college in Appalachia which requires all students and faculty to live on campus.

Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Baptist Trainfan - interesting comment from your parents' friend about Imperial. I was there and living away in London. There was absolutely no hope of commuting anywhere from home. There weren't enough hall places for most people to live in after first year, so I ended up in a grotty flat in Brixton (at the time of the riots) and a few other less salubrious places, so wasn't actually on campus much. I did learn a lot about dodgy landlords. But there was one guy still living at home on the course and he had a very different experience from the rest of us. (Imperial still had shared rooms in a lot of the dorms back then - and the best view ever of the Iranian embassy siege from the back of one of the Halls.)

My daughter applied to Imperial more to show she could get an offer too, but had no intention of going to a London university as she would have been expected to commute.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
There are many comments here about where college students live. You can also debate where the faculty should live. There is a definite negative effect, a loss of community, if faculty live at a substantial distance and commute.

I once applied for (but did not get) a job at a small college in Appalachia which requires all students and faculty to live on campus.

Even a much smaller requirement can have good effect: hubby used to teach at a small religious college which had a common lunch break for everyone-- staff, faculty and students-- during which no classes were offered and all offices were closed. Staff & faculty were given free passes to lunch in the common cafeteria. Compared to the larger uni where I teach (classes scheduled from 7 am to 11 pm, with no common break) it really did have a positive effect by creating this informal space each day for conversation between students, faculty, and staff.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

 - Posted      Profile for Alogon   Email Alogon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It is reasonable to require undergraduates to live within a reasonable commute of the university buildings. It is not reasonable to make any further requirements.

It depends whether we're talking about public or private colleges. At the public university where I last worked, a decision was made some years back for all dormitories to be non-smoking. No exceptions. I thought that this decision was terribly discriminatory and unfair to sovereign, taxpaying citizens who chose to engage in a perfectly legal activity, and one unrelated to academic ability. Smoking has become politically incorrect, you know. If the same university also pressured students to live on campus (which it does not, to my knowledge) the injustice would be doubled.

But a privately run institution should be considered much more free to make whatever requiremends it wishes. Vive la difference. If you don't like them, vote with your feet. (If I ran a university, a student would need to go outdoors not to smoke, but to use a cell phone [brick wall] )

Thanks to the wisdom and sacrificial generosity of my non-helicopter parents, I lived on campus, even though home was less than a mile away. As they dropped me off at the dorm, their parting words were, "Don't come back home until Thanksgiving!" And I didn't. I didn't even feel a great desire to do so, despite a few challenges devastating to my self-confidence at the time. It's a far cry from today, when dormitories routinely empty every weekend.

In principle, and based on this experience, I'm all in favor of encouraging students to live on campus. But the university must do its part to make the proposition viable. This includes living conditions that don't require going to the library to find enough quiet to do a student's basic job, for Pete's sake!

While the caricature of a helicopter parent may be rarer than we might fear, it's lamentably a moving target. Anyone over 60 (or even 50) with memory intact should be able to testify to this. A parent today who grants a child mobility which I, and every kid I knew, could take for granted runs the risk of being arrested for negligence.

--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I thought that this decision was terribly discriminatory and unfair to sovereign, taxpaying citizens who chose to engage in a perfectly legal activity, and one unrelated to academic ability. Smoking has become politically incorrect, you know.

Alternatively, it costs an absolute fortune to clean and redecorate a room inhabited by a smoker, and they can't then hire out that room over the summer to paying guests because it stinks.

And you get to kill your roomie with secondary smoke too.

So yes, it must be due to 'political correctness'...

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194

 - Posted      Profile for Rowen   Email Rowen   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nobody I know lived away from home when at uni, in Australia. An up-to-date report... My sister's three live at home now, whilst studying medicine. It just seems more acceptable to stay with family, and cheaper. Not many accomodation options, and those that exist would be filled with country students who have to move, and OS students.
Different cultural norms.

--------------------
"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...

Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The damaged lead up to total independence at university is not always the parents' fault. Some of it might be to do with increased health and safety and child protection concerns, leading to an artificially sheltered teenager-hood.

For example, I was staggered when one of my sons brought home a parental consent form for a club he belonged to. I was supposed to sign to say that, as he was still only 17, I would bring him and stay with him until the club started, in case the leader should be delayed and he might find himself alone with a non-DRB-checked adult. The laugh was, he had already passed his driving test and was driving himself to the club, after dropping me off at my computer course!

Teenagers, a generation previously, were quite independent and assumed to be capable of making up their own minds who they mixed with. It did lead, sometimes, to mistakes being made and people of ill intent taking advantage. But by trying to protect against all eventualities, much of the benefit of gaining independence has been lost. And increased bureaucracy is very good at playing on the fears of worried parents.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But the age of 'responsibility' has always shifted. There was a time when the bar mitzvah really did mark your passage into adulthood.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Chorister, that is a standard safeguarding requirement for youth groups. We have parents of Guides (aged 10-14) dropping children off in the car park and sailing off elsewhere, without checking to see if the kids get in. Which when we take the Guides to other places could mean a 10 year old standing in a busy car park for 90 minutes in the dark. The car park next to a recreation ground where the older teenagers hang out together, some playing sport, some taking drugs and drinking.

It's a standard form.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Alogon:
quote:
At the public university where I last worked, a decision was made some years back for all dormitories to be non-smoking. No exceptions. I thought that this decision was terribly discriminatory and unfair to sovereign, taxpaying citizens who chose to engage in a perfectly legal activity, and one unrelated to academic ability. Smoking has become politically incorrect, you know.
Smoking stinks the place out and, as Doc Tor has already pointed out, causes health problems for anyone forced to breathe in the smoke-laden air; serious problems if you're an asthmatic forced to share a room with a smoker.

But the real reason why most public buildings in the UK went smoke-free before it was a legal requirement is that they got a reduction in their fire insurance. Allowing smoking increases the risk of fire. Banning it reduces the overhead even before you factor in the reduced cleaning costs.

Do you believe in the free market or not? You can't have it both ways.

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Chorister, that is a standard safeguarding requirement for youth groups. We have parents of Guides (aged 10-14) dropping children off in the car park and sailing off elsewhere, without checking to see if the kids get in. Which when we take the Guides to other places could mean a 10 year old standing in a busy car park for 90 minutes in the dark. The car park next to a recreation ground where the older teenagers hang out together, some playing sport, some taking drugs and drinking.

It's a standard form.

But it should be used with a certain amount of discretion- what makes sense for a 10 year old or a 14 year old might not make sense for a 17 year old.
Slight tangent but this is an example of the way that we are, in the UK at least, deeply confused about the transition to responsibility. For example, voting at 16 is now an element of quite mainstream political platforms: but at the same time we're becoming, rightly or not, protective of young people for longer. I don't know whether there are any 'right' answers but I put it down to social fragmentation and a rather sloppy liberalism.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The point I am making though, Brenda and CK, is that because the age of responsibility is now deemed to be so late (18 not 10, we are not comparing like with like here), then parents are regarding their young people going off to university as still children, in need of their care. When the age of responsibility is deemed to be lower, say 14 or even 16, there are several years for the teenagers to flex their independence muscles before setting off for university - there is therefore no need for parents to accompany them and fuss around them for the first year.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
But the real reason why most public buildings in the UK went smoke-free before it was a legal requirement is that they got a reduction in their fire insurance.he free market or not? You can't have it both ways.

Which is a far better point than mine. +1 internets.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was only 17 when I went to Uni. I wouldn't have had any problem drinking at the bar even though I was technically underage, as a Uni. ID card was considered to be sufficient to gain access.

I never went, though - not part of my culture.

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But it should be used with a certain amount of discretion- what makes sense for a 10 year old or a 14 year old might not make sense for a 17 year old.

Actually, it IS used with discretion--what's going on here is the institution is putting the policy on a form for parents to sign and agree to. If the parents THEN go on to completely disregard the potential issue, believing their children to be mature enough to cope, they may. But the institution is now off the hook, legally speaking. It has covered its ass by having the parents assume responsibility for deciding what is proper discretion or not.

This is a pretty common stratagem.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, that's not discretion: that is as you say an institution playing safe and covering their back.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, a great deal of this is driven by insurance issues. Ass coverage rules.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I was only 17 when I went to Uni. I wouldn't have had any problem drinking at the bar even though I was technically underage, as a Uni. ID card was considered to be sufficient to gain access.

I never went, though - not part of my culture.

I was also 17 for the first six months of college. I was only "carded" (asked for i.d.) twice, and both times proof that I was a student at my college got me in.

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
At the public university where I last worked, a decision was made some years back for all dormitories to be non-smoking. No exceptions. I thought that this decision was terribly discriminatory and unfair to sovereign, taxpaying citizens who chose to engage in a perfectly legal activity...

Way back when I was in college, preventing cigarette smoking in the dorms wouldn't have been as much of a problem as preventing all types of smoking. The preferred substance was not "a perfectly legal activity."
[Biased]

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

 - Posted      Profile for North East Quine   Email North East Quine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At my kids' universities, ID cards for under-18s have "under 18" in bold red writing.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Kid Independence as Cultural

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Kid Independence as Cultural

That is how things were when I was a child, England in the 1950s.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

 - Posted      Profile for Alogon   Email Alogon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The cover article "Better Watch What You Say" in the current issue of Atlantic makes fascinating, if horrifying, reading. Thank God I'm retired from the mad-house that an American campus has apparently become. Attempts to make them "safe places" have backfired and made them more dangerous places to work in than ever before.

The chickens of political correctness and helicopter parenting are coming home to roost. In their second generation, they are now embodied not primarily in faculty, but in hypersensitive students who consider their poor widdo feewings sovereign and are as ready as coiled rattlesnakes to lash out at anyone who "offends" them by committing a "microaggression", however unintentional. The authors explain that such attitudes and responses are psychologically maladaptive and will only increase the incidence of depression and other mental illnesses. We get stronger by facing and overcoming our fears, not by avoiding situations that might "trigger" them.

--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was interested enough to look up that article: Link.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Kid Independence as Cultural

That is how things were when I was a child, England in the 1950s.
Me too, in the 1960s. But then I did live in a fairly rural area, not the urban sprawl of a capital city. Times have certainly changed. There is much fear - some of it probably well founded. But much of it not. I guess the problem is that people are not really sure how to tell the difference.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Don't remember running errands when I was a small kid in Brixton in the early 70s, but I do remember going to and from school there on my own- I suppose about 3/4 mile- and we left there a couple of months after my seventh birthday.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

 - Posted      Profile for Alogon   Email Alogon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My first experience with independence was somewhat accidental. It was "visitor's day" at the kindergarten class I'd begin attending the following year, so that would make me four years old. School was about half a mile from home. Grandma said that she would meet me there after school and walk me home. When the class let out to the playground, I looked around. No Grandma. So I successfully walked home on my own, even though uncertain exactly how to get there. Going through the door, Grandma was surprised to see me. She was just about to leave for the school. Why was I so early?

Well, I didn't know about recess. We had gone outdoors for recess, not the end of the school day.

But after that, no problem walking to and from school alone, even though I was probably more sheltered and reticent than many age-mates. From age 9 up, I could and did bicycle wherever I wished in cities of 35000-50000. This was standard practice.

--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools