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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In what ways does God give us freedom?
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
YMMV. I find I spend my time more constructively no longer worrying whether or not God is living up to my standards.
Not fair.
This is a low blow because I'm not worrying, I'm asking the question. I am in the fortunate position to have no fears. Throughout the Bible are the words 'fear not'. They must ring very very hollow for some people.
'I'm not God therefore it's not worth thinking about' is a cop-out imo
What's the "unfair" about? I don't see Tortuf judging you or anybody for asking the question. Tortuf is simply saying this is how he handles it.
If you want someone with a shitload of fear right now, that'd be me. As in mother, stepfather, sister all hovering on the edge of terminal illness, husband's job in danger (as usual), self unemployed, and so forth.
But what does that have to do with the question of whether God is living up to my standards?
My default is to let God get on with being God, and I try to get on with being me. I’ve made a choice (which could be revoked at any time, me being the ordinary weak and screwed up person that I am) to assume that God knows what he is doing, even when it runs contrary to my personal perspective on events. And therefore I’m going to trust him when I don’t understand, and get on with my own work in the meantime. Which is what I think Tortuf is saying (correct me if I’m wrong). Nothing wrong with that.
I understand that other people are in a totally different place, and that’s fine. I could be there myself at some point. Which is what YMMV means.
ETA: "Fear not" actually is rather comforting to me personally right now. It's like the bracing, comforting words of an older brother holding you as you try to stay up on the bike: "It's okay, I've got you."
I'm not actually capable of obeying it (check my blood pressure!) but the fact that he's saying so is a comforting reminder that somebody is still in control.
[ 07. October 2015, 18:37: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Even though I don't believe (see posts upthread) in God as "totally in control over every thing that happens", I, too am comforted by the "fear not" command. Even though I think a lot of s***y stuff happens in this life that isn't exactly according to God's plan, I believe the future is his. He has a promised future. It's a long way off, but it's sure. So, while sometimes I might wish for more of the "controlling" sort of God who would keep all the bad s**t from happening, I'm still able to rest (sometimes-- I'm a lot like Lamb Chopped here, perhaps with even less justification) in knowing that promised future.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The interesting thing is the degree to which this is special pleading that is only ever argued in connection for God and would be considered morally monstrous in any other context.
For example, Martin60 seems to be arguing that putting an end to Auschwitz was far worse than anything done at Auschwitz. In effect, that the wrong people were put on trial at Nuremberg and the Allies were guilty of violating the Nazi High Command's free will.
Likewise we typically don't object when "normal biological processes [are] suspended" by using antibiotics to allow "someone [to] recover from a disease that would otherwise take their life" in the absence of such treatments, nor do we consider it immoral to suspend normal biological processes with vaccines that allow people to develop disease immunity without disease exposure. For some reason this sort of interference is only considered immoral when God does it.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that it would be immoral for God to intervene to prevent evil. Rather we (or at least I) am arguing that it is a logical impossibility. You cannot have a universe that is both free and not free (although, of course, you can and do have one that has degrees of freedom). If God overrides our free will when we choose differently than what he wants, then we do not have free will. It's like telling your child s/he can choose between broiled chicken or a cupcake and slapping their hand away when they reach for the cupcake because you know the chicken is a better choice for them. If you're going to override choice then there really is no choice.
Sorry, not following you. Shutting down death camps or vaccinating against disease are like inconsistent parenting because if someone really wants to murder Jews or "decides" to contract smallpox we should respect their freedom to make that choice? That seems abhorrent.
I'm having trouble following your not following
![[Confused]](confused.gif) Are we talking past each other???
I would certain advocate for humans making full use of their free choice to do everything in our power to end human suffering-- vaccination and shutting down death camps be good example of that. Those are good, moral choices-- even if they mean intervening with someone's free choice. There are circumstances where limiting free choice is a good moral choice-- such as limiting someone's free choice to commit murder.
My post was in answer to the question of why God doesn't proactively intervene in the world to end human-caused suffering. I am suggesting that he doesn't do that, not because it would be immoral, but because it is a logical impossibility. That if you create creatures who exist in a universe with a certain amount of freedom, you cannot then uncreate that system. Either we are free to choose evil, or we are not. If God acts to stop that choice, then logically, we were never free-- just as in my example if you tell your child he can choose between chicken or cake but will stop him from choosing cake, he was never really freely choosing.
That's not about morality, it's about logical impossibility. The question of whether it is moral or not for God to create a world with the freedom to choose evil is yet another question. The question of whether or not God drew the boundaries tightly enough in terms of what he will/will not allow for the sake of our freedom to choose good is also yet another question. At this point I was simply clarifying that the argument is not about morality but about logical impossibility.
[ 07. October 2015, 19:09: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As they, we hung (our) children at Auschwitz He HAD to do nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
We might not be able to live in a world where normal biological processes were suspended so someone could recover from a disease that would otherwise take their life.
The interesting thing is the degree to which this is special pleading that is only ever argued in connection for God and would be considered morally monstrous in any other context.
For example, Martin60 seems to be arguing that putting an end to Auschwitz was far worse than anything done at Auschwitz. In effect, that the wrong people were put on trial at Nuremberg and the Allies were guilty of violating the Nazi High Command's free will.
Likewise we typically don't object when "normal biological processes [are] suspended" by using antibiotics to allow "someone [to] recover from a disease that would otherwise take their life" in the absence of such treatments, nor do we consider it immoral to suspend normal biological processes with vaccines that allow people to develop disease immunity without disease exposure. For some reason this sort of interference is only considered immoral when God does it.
Excellent Croesos. You've exposed the elephantine void in the middle of my rhetoric.
My premises:
God is great and God is good. Perfect. The best case God in whom all will be well.
He OBVIOUSLY does not intervene. Ever. Except for the ONE stone thrown in the pond.
You believe the same I believe. You share those premises. No?
How do YOU square the circle WITHOUT special pleading?
Please?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But, unlike my kids, my dog could not be brought to independence in that way, yet she is still truly loved. This is also the case for my brother's 35 year old daughter who has never been able to move, speak or communicate in any way. She has Retts syndrome.
And we can never be un-dependent on God (as it's God we rely on for absolutely everything) so I still have the question 'Why set us free?' We are not free. We have something of an illusion of freedom, but that's all it is. If God loves us he does not have to set us free, he just needs to be as kind as it's possible to be to us (not indulgent, kind).
What do you think?
What is this freedom?
Is it real?
Is it necessary?
My take on it is that the freedom is very real, that it's more like the freedom adult children have from their parents - the freedom which as they grow older allows them to turn and question their upbringing and challenge their parents, as we do at a certain stage of our spiritual growth to our Heavenly Father.
The freedom God gives us is the complete freedom to build or to destroy - each other and the world - as the collective human race. It is scary freedom, but it is necessary freedom as the only way we can be held accountable for our actions is if we had the freedom to do or say something else, or nothing at all.
We limit our own freedoms, through laws, societal and parental influences, and moral codes whether learned or imposed, but as individuals we remain free to break them.
Although I do see God as being the spiritual power that connects all of creation and without whom we would not exist, when it comes to our free will choices God doesn't impose himself on anyone. Mary could have said no to the angel.
I believe that God provides guidance to all of us at all times, but most of the time we are unaware of it. Perhaps occasionally we pick it up subliminally rather than consciously, so that extraordinary meetings or happenings take place and we meet future wives or husbands, or we don't catch the train that derails, etc. Some missed the Titanic. There are also evil influences that it is as well to be aware of, both within ourselves as tendencies and weaknesses, and from the deceptions around us.
Prayer and silence with God helps us to keep our attention focussed. If we follow the teaching and example of Jesus, we are not giving up our free will, but entering the freedom of God's kingdom where we have been released from the constraints of evil.
This then is the freedom we have in the world as it is: the freedom to nail Jesus to the cross and despise him, mock him, and spit on him, or to love him and others as ourselves.
The freedom we're promised at the end of the world is in the perfect kingdom we are all looking for, where there will be no more tears.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Yeah- that. What he (Raptor Eye) said.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
She intervenes in our heads and even external circumstances so we meet the loves our lives but not for the child and their killer?
And that's moral?
What utter, risible, pathetic, chick-flick twaddle.
At least I take the twaddle to the max as Croesos exposed. I justify God's UTTER non-intervention, utter amorality.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I don't get it. First, there is a considerable assumption being made about free will. What makes you think you have free will? If you do have it, who sort do you have? If you do think you have it, you can scrap all those Bible verses about God having plans for you. If he has plans for you, he presumably knows the future and exists outside of time. In which case you merely get to witness the unfolding of God's plan for you, rather than create your own present and future. The same goes for the verse about God knowing you before you were even conceived. If you are amongst the so-called 'Bible-believing' Christians, it seems to me that you have some difficult choices: God didn't really know you before you were born, nor does he have concrete plans for you. Or it might be that those verses contain real truth claims, in which case you don't have real free will, your earthly life is just marking time while God's plan for you unfolds. It might be getting hit by a bus, or motor-neurone disease or winning a Nobel Prize!
If you're going to talk about 'freedom' you need to sort out the matter of free will. Does God exist within time? Does he already know what will happen to you? Has he known you since before you were even conceived? If that is true, then not only do you not have any free will, but neither did your parents, nor their parents, an so on. I don't see how that is freedom at all.
K.
[ 08. October 2015, 09:08: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Komensky: If you do think you have [free will], you can scrap all those Bible verses about God having plans for you.
That's a false dichotomy.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Komensky: If you do think you have [free will], you can scrap all those Bible verses about God having plans for you.
That's a false dichotomy.
I didn't present it as a binary choice, but merely a deduction from the first point. If God knows both 'you' (whatever that means) before you were even conceived and also knows what will happen to you in future such a claim would (to be generous) seriously undermine the understandings of free will under discussion here.
I should have been clearer about 'scrap'. It would have been better to write 'reconsider your literal interpretation, if you have one'. Such passages may, of course, have other value.
K.
[ 08. October 2015, 09:21: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
I don't get it either - why does there have to be such a binary position - either total free-will and God is hands-off OR total control from God and we are mindless robots?
On the free-will side it seems to me that we have genuine free-will I can exercise real choice about how I treat people, what I say, how I live. However, let's not pretend I have total free-will. That free-will is constrained. To take an absurd example I am not free to jump off a building and fly - no matter how much my free-will thinks that would be a really cool thing to do. My free will is constrained by the laws of nature (amongst many other things).
On the side of God's sovereignty - I do not see how our free-will means that God cannot have plans and purposes that he intends to fulfil - it's just that those "plans" and how they are accomplished dynamically interact with all of our choices.
God has a plan to see his Kingdom come, to set all things right and he has dramatically intervened in the person of Jesus to kickstart this process. How that will ultimately come to fruition, how long it will take and what our role in it will be is a dynamic interaction between those purposes of God and our free will.
That is why prayer is important, and especially this part of the Lord's Prayer:
Your kingdom come
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven
As this is us aligning our wills to God's and creating the conditions for us to fulfil his purposes and plans.
[ 08. October 2015, 09:23: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Ok, Jammy, what is the ratio, then, of your free will and when God takes control? 50/50? 60/40? 1/99? To get back to the point, how is that freedom? Are you suggesting that at least some of the time God is pulling the strings on your life? How does he do it? Do you notice when it happens? This is an interesting conversation, but still, what you are describing doesn't sound like freedom. I suppose you could argue that God mostly controls you, then sometimes (when? for how long?) he let's you drive—and you want to call those moments 'freedom'. Is that right?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
No I'm afraid I want to have my cake and eat it. I see is as 100% of both at the same time.
So I am exercising my free will and God is achieving his purposes and plans (not in a controlling way but maybe orchestrating? not sure what the best word would be) at the same time.
So God's intent is fulfilled ultimately - but how that happens and how long it takes may depend on whether, through my free will I am choosing to work with God or against him.
So if God's purpose is to bring about his kingdom here on earth then the more of us that are also working to that end now and behaving in that way will hasten the achievement of that purpose.
That's my twopenneth anyway
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It reminds me of the jazz group at my son's school. There's an overlying musical framework, but within that framework, the players improvise all over the place, and it sounds different every time, as the mood strikes them. Saxophone solos, drum, etc. and each one different from the way it might have been done last Thursday.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Martin, there is a big difference between imposed intervention and an invitation to accept guidance. We all suffer the consequences of each other's free will choices, sadly. If everyone allowed themselves to be guided by God's will, it would be heaven on earth.
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I don't get it. First, there is a considerable assumption being made about free will. What makes you think you have free will? If you do have it, who sort do you have? If you do think you have it, you can scrap all those Bible verses about God having plans for you. If he has plans for you, he presumably knows the future and exists outside of time. In which case you merely get to witness the unfolding of God's plan for you, rather than create your own present and future. The same goes for the verse about God knowing you before you were even conceived. If you are amongst the so-called 'Bible-believing' Christians, it seems to me that you have some difficult choices: God didn't really know you before you were born, nor does he have concrete plans for you. Or it might be that those verses contain real truth claims, in which case you don't have real free will, your earthly life is just marking time while God's plan for you unfolds. It might be getting hit by a bus, or motor-neurone disease or winning a Nobel Prize!
If you're going to talk about 'freedom' you need to sort out the matter of free will. Does God exist within time? Does he already know what will happen to you? Has he known you since before you were even conceived? If that is true, then not only do you not have any free will, but neither did your parents, nor their parents, an so on. I don't see how that is freedom at all.
K.
There is a difference between knowing somebody and loving them, and forcing ourselves upon them so that they must do what we want. God invites, God does not impose.
We have the free will choice to do our own thing or to do God's thing, albeit that we are influenced subliminally all of the time by the media, the opinions of others, and the more subtle deceptions as well as the positive invitations to do what is good and right.
An analogy for God's plans might be a computer programme, which takes into account all eventualities but which knows and aims for its goal. If we refuse, someone else accepts. We are always given the choice. As God is outside of time, God may already know that we accepted, but that does not mean that we had no choice.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
So if God knows everything about your future and is all-powerful, and has known it from before you were even conceived, then it sounds precisely that he is forcing it upon you. If it is already decided, I don't see much room for free will. It sounds to me like you want to say that although the outcome has already been decided, you get to decide some of the stuff in the middle, like what to wear or which kind of toothpaste to use; is that right? Your 'freedom' sounds like the same kind of freedom that prisoners get when they get to walk around the prison yard. 'Hey, these guys decide whether to walk in circles or back and forth, or lie down on their faces—that's a kind of freedom!'.
What kind of 'invitation' is that? 'Dear Komensky, I invite you to do exactly as I have already decided—and you can pretend that you made some of decisions, even though I have already decided it all for you.' Gosh.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
That was not what I said at all, Komensky. The invitation is there for us to live the way God wants us to. We can freely accept or reject it. If we accept, we freely and lovingly do things Gods way. We can turn around at any time and go our own way. People do - which is why we have to suffer the consequences of other people's evil actions and words.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I don't get it. First, there is a considerable assumption being made about free will. What makes you think you have free will? If you do have it, who sort do you have? If you do think you have it, you can scrap all those Bible verses about God having plans for you. If he has plans for you, he presumably knows the future and exists outside of time. In which case you merely get to witness the unfolding of God's plan for you, rather than create your own present and future. The same goes for the verse about God knowing you before you were even conceived. If you are amongst the so-called 'Bible-believing' Christians, it seems to me that you have some difficult choices: God didn't really know you before you were born, nor does he have concrete plans for you. Or it might be that those verses contain real truth claims, in which case you don't have real free will, your earthly life is just marking time while God's plan for you unfolds. It might be getting hit by a bus, or motor-neurone disease or winning a Nobel Prize!
As an Open Theist, I believe God exists within time. I recognize that's not the majority view.
But irregardless of your view on time, your view on free will vs. determinism is too binary. You are correct that those who view God as having absolute control over every detail of one's life (e.g. orchestrating complex events to cause you to meet your love) are going to logically have to exclude any pretense of freedom. As I argued above, this inevitably means that God would be the author of evil.
But to argue (as Open Theists do) that the future is undetermined ("open") does not mean the verses re God having a plan are meaningless. God has made specific promises, just as people w/ far less control over their own circumstances do all the time. God has the will and the power to fulfill his promises, even while keeping much of the universe still open.
I believe the future is "open"-- our choices are free. But all of our choices are known-- not in terms of what we will ultimately choose (if this were true we would not truly be free) but in terms of what all the options are, and what the implications/ consequences are for each choice. And, like a master chess player, God is able to anticipate every potential future choice and has a plan to accomplish his purposes in every scenario.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Ok, Jammy, what is the ratio, then, of your free will and when God takes control? 50/50? 60/40? 1/99? To get back to the point, how is that freedom? Are you suggesting that at least some of the time God is pulling the strings on your life? How does he do it? Do you notice when it happens? This is an interesting conversation, but still, what you are describing doesn't sound like freedom. I suppose you could argue that God mostly controls you, then sometimes (when? for how long?) he let's you drive—and you want to call those moments 'freedom'. Is that right?
K.
As argued above, I don't believe God controls anyone. I don't believe God will override anyone's free will. He could-- but he chose to create a world with free creatures.
But there are many ways that one can accomplish one's purposes without manipulating/forcing other people to do your bidding. Our own freedom and power is obviously significantly more limited than God's, yet we make and keep promises all the time-- despite the fact that we can't control other people. So God can certainly have a plan (or multiple plans in all the multi-billions of scenarios dependent upon human free choices) to accomplish his promised future w/o having to control every choice.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
So if God knows everything about your future and is all-powerful, and has known it from before you were even conceived, then it sounds precisely that he is forcing it upon you. If it is already decided, I don't see much room for free will.
I think it might actually be useful to remove God from the argument temporarily - as it reduces the possibility of arguing based on what God 'should' or 'shouldn't' do.
You are really arguing about whether or not determinism (whatever its causes) can exist alongside free will. Here opinions are divided, even if one takes the view of free will as libertarian that you do.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Hear, hear! toKomensky's posts.
My body and brain work automatically and autonomously, obeying the instincts which have taken millions of years to evolve. Because it does this, I can choose my everyday actions. The fact that I firmly believe there is no God makes no difference - except perhaps that I never waste time considering what said god might be thinking or wanting.
The driver of the car that knocked me down last year wasn't doing God's will or anything; she made a serious mistake. She didn't choose to do so with free will - it happened
The research that has been done which shows relevant parts of the brain lighting up a split second before someone moves a hand or something has already taken a step towards understanding how we make decisions, hasn't it? No doubt there will be much better experiments done over the next 50 years.
(P.S. I did hesitate before putting in a post!!)
[ 08. October 2015, 15:04: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
God is able to anticipate every potential future choice and has a plan to accomplish his purposes in every scenario.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Yes, that. Put so much better than I could.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Let me get this straight: God is the one who gives you free will, yet can (and according to some, does) over-ride that and use magic to make his already-established future transpire? I don't see how you are going to reconcile your argument that God exists outside of time and the issue of free will.
Cliffdweller seems to imply God has lots (how many?) of futures already made. This is really strange. If God has to create a bunch of contingent universes so that his plan is sure to happen in at least one of them, then his knowledge of his own creation (you and your life) is imperfect. If God achieves his plan/will (hey wait, what makes you think God himself has free will?) come what may, as you argue, you then presumably hold that children dying horrible deaths fleeing Syria are merely the fulfilment of God's great plan?
If you have free will, surely God's knowledge of you is imperfect; you could do something that God didn't already know you were going to do.
None of this sounds like freedom.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Let me get this straight: God is the one who gives you free will, yet can (and according to some, does) over-ride that and use magic to make his already-established future transpire?
I really don't see it has to be this either-or.
I don't believe God over-rides anything - the "magic" is us aligning ourselves to his will and inviting him to accomplish his purposes (once again: your will be done...). We then become agents of God's intervention. Its a dynamic interaction between both us and God. I also don't necessarily see that God's future has to be mapped out in perfect detail. I see it more as purpose or intent that he will accomplish.
Incidently, if God's control was absolute and our future fixed why would we need to pray "your kingdom come, your will be done" if it already is being?
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Raptor eye. It is God's will, Her invitation that we be kind and just and mericful and generous and forgiving and humble and eirenic and honest and temperate and ... what other "guidance" is there? And you freely accept that invitation. How's that working out for you? God's being outside of now does not mean that She is outside the next now: that doesn't exist, that hasn't happened yet. There are no times, no nows in God. Time is now. There is just now. The future no more exists in God than the past. God has no plan therefore. I don't understand any of your terms except as metaphor at best.
'Intervention', 'Invitation', 'Guidance', 'Will', 'Freedom'. We are 'the plan'. We tumbled out of free the freest possible creation. Despite the fact I cannot visualize it except in the metaphor of a picnic walk in paradise, free of violence, of entropy, there is a resurrection, a transcendence. If it's concurrent with now or after the heat death of the universe or some point in between, no one can ever know until they die. There's no trace of it. It doesn't impinge on us in any way. But as God is before us, around us, in us, ahead of us and doesn't either, it will be there.
Cliffdweller, Jammy Dodger. The future is open. That's true. NOTHING is known about it. By God. God does not bother with transfinite scenarios. She anticipates nothing. There is no need. She goes with our free flow of accumulating complexity. Forever. Beyond death. Judgement Day is eternity in Paradise. Ever learning, deconstructing, healing, relating, playing, creating.
It'll be nice. Forever and ever.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Let me get this straight: God is the one who gives you free will, yet can (and according to some, does) over-ride that and use magic to make his already-established future transpire? I don't see how you are going to reconcile your argument that God exists outside of time and the issue of free will.
Most of us don't think God overrides free will.
I would agree that it's hard to make this (free will) work if God exists outside of time, which is why Open Theists posit that God in inside time as we are in time (OT vary in how they get to that place-- i.e. whether it is an inherent logical circumstance of time itself or whether it is something voluntarily did when he created a temporal universe.)
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Cliffdweller seems to imply God has lots (how many?) of futures already made. This is really strange. If God has to create a bunch of contingent universes so that his plan is sure to happen in at least one of them, then his knowledge of his own creation (you and your life) is imperfect.
God doesn't have contingent universes, he has contingent plans. Which is not at all strange--we all do that, every day. "Tomorrow I will go to the park... if it doesn't rain." "Sunday I will pick you up at noon... if the preacher doesn't go long on his sermon..." Our future is contingent on a host of factors. If, as I suggest, God chose to create a universe where the future is "open" rather than fixed-- where what happens next is to some degree contingent upon free choices made by free creatures-- then God will make contingent plans in order to accomplish his purposes-- just as we would do. If my purpose is to spend time with my child tomorrow, I might say, "Tomorrow I will go to the park... if it doesn't rain.... If it rains we'll go to the movies... if nothing good is playing we'll go to the children's museum..." Three contingencies based on three future possibilities that are beyond my control, but all of which accomplish my desired purpose. Even though my freedom is limited by other factors beyond my control, I have a plan in place to accomplish my purpose.
Master chess players do this all the time. They don't know all the moves their opponent will make, but they know all of the possible moves, and therefore can think/plan many moves ahead in order to accomplish their purpose of winning the match.
How much more so for God, who, being omniscient, knows ALL the possible contingencies, not just some of them as I am-- and is able to comprehend and imagine an infinite number of possible solutions to each which will allow him to accomplish his purposes w/o having to override anyone's free will.
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
If God has to create a bunch of contingent universes so that his plan is sure to happen in at least one of them, then his knowledge of his own creation (you and your life) is imperfect. If God achieves his plan/will (hey wait, what makes you think God himself has free will?) come what may, as you argue, you then presumably hold that children dying horrible deaths fleeing Syria are merely the fulfilment of God's great plan?
One of the core beliefs of Christianity (indeed, of most world religions and philosophies) is that this is NOT a perfect world. This is quite obviously an imperfect world, which your mention of children dying fleeing Syria is just one of a myriad of examples we could use to prove that point. The question of WHY the world God created is presently not perfect is a complex one (Open Theism has a particular, if controversial answer-- so do other systematic theologies) but we all agree the world as it exists right now is NOT perfect. That is why we pray "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"-- precisely because that is NOT the case right now. It is our hope-- part of that promised future. It is why we need a Savior. It is very much not the current reality.
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
If God has to create a bunch of contingent universes so that his plan is sure to happen in at least one of them, then his knowledge of his own creation (you and your life) is imperfect...
If you have free will, surely God's knowledge of you is imperfect; you could do something that God didn't already know you were going to do.
God could have created a fixed universe where his knowledge of every future choice/action would be determined, and therefore know-able. But, for whatever reason (my theory is love) God chose to create a universe where the future is partially open-- unfixed-- and contingent upon free choices made by free creatures. God voluntarily gave up some control to make this happen.
God is omniscient, which means he knows everything that can be known. The past and the present are knowable-- God knows these perfectly. Future choices of free creatures are unknowable. But I believe God knows every future possibility. So no, we can't do something that will "surprise" God as in it never occurred to him that we might do that. But he cannot know with certainty (although one imagines he is a pretty good guesser) what we will choose until we choose it. As you suggest, if he knew our choices before we made them, then they could not be freely chosen.
But because he is able to know every contingent possibility, he again is able to anticipate and come up with a plan to accomplish his promised future in any contingency. Just as I (much more imperfectly) am able to come up with contingent plans to accomplish my purpose to spend time with my child, even though I cannot control everything that might happen to interfere with that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I came upon this quote the other day by Justin Martyr.
quote:
Justin Martyr said that "every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way"
Of course it preceded the Augustinian/Pelagian debate by a few centuries, but it is not untypical of quotes by early Church Fathers over the issue of choice. Here's anther one from Irenaus.
quote:
“But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.”
On a personal level, I think we wrestle with ourselves over moral issues and sometimes we submit to temptation. I'm not a Calvinist and I'm certainly not a determinist. I think the Catholic critique of Calvinism and the Orthodox critique of the pervasive impact of Augustinian thinking on the Western Church both have a lot to say to Protestants. We need to reflect on our roots.
I believe the most excellent way is unselfish love of God and others. And love has no value if it is a forced card. I would go further and say that if it is a forced card, it is not love.
The OT encourages us to "choose life, so that we and our descendants will live". The NT exhorts us to "follow the way of love". So I think God gives us freedom to choose to live a life of love and discover every day that we need the grace of God to help us follow through.
[ 09. October 2015, 06:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
cliffdweller, why would God bother with ANY plan, let alone proliferate at least aleph-null of them?
THE issue is the one Croesos identifies. Why does She Zen in the face of the suffering of others when we must not, even though there is virtually nothing we can do EXCEPT on an immediate basis?
Is there a clue there?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
THE issue is the one Croesos identifies. Why does She Zen in the face of the suffering of others when we must not, even though there is virtually nothing we can do EXCEPT on an immediate basis?
The answer is always 'because we must be free to choose right from wrong'. God has already chosen. This universe, though faulty, is the only way freedom could have been achieved.
I accept this (I think) but I don't like it. I would rather a kinder but less free existence for those who suffer so terribly. I don't suffer (yet?) but would also accept a gentler, less free, way. We are already constrained in so very many ways a little less 'spiritual' choice would not go amiss imo.
Did you see BBC2 last night? A parasite which deliberately deforms frogs back legs so that they can hardly swim, they get eaten by birds in order that the parasite can spread far and wide in birds faeces. Foul nature. No wonder we who descended from them treat each other so badly.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
That is why we pray "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"-- precisely because that is NOT the case right now. It is our hope-- part of that promised future. It is why we need a Savior. It is very much not the current reality.
Great post cliffdweller I liked your description of God's 'contingent plans'. This point is really important for me too as I would say prayer is why have have come to the position I have about the dynamic interaction between our will and God's. If God is totally in control and everything that happens is already his will. Why pray "your will be done". It's pointless. Also if God cannot intervene then why pray "give us..., lead us..., deliver us..." if God can do nothing about it. Also pointless. Yet Jesus prayed, he instructed us to pray these things and in my experience prayer does change things - even if that change is me so that I make different choices with my free will. I can't explain it any more than that!
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Thanks to Cliffdweller for thoughtful replies here. 'Open Theism' is a concept with which I am not familiar.
As for the question 'why do we pray the things we pray in the Lord's prayer?', surely the answer should be 'because we pray in hope', not in certainties of prayer being answered.
Again, I still don't see freedom in this—or very much of it.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The issue of God ‘giving us freedom’ is also strange. If we are made in God’s image, and we have free will, then God too must have free will. When we exercise free will we make choices, for the most part, out of necessity or desire for the outcome. If God is perfect and lacks nothing, I don’t see how he could experience desire or necessity (assuming omnipotence). If, then, God lacks nothing and cannot experience desire or necessity, how can he possess free will? How then does God create mankind in his image and pass on this (allegedly essential) trait that he himself does not and cannot possess?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
God is Love. How is that expressed other than in relationship? The old systematic theologians talked about the impassibility of God but I never got that, never really related to it. Perhaps it doesn't mean what it seems to mean?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
God is Love. How is that expressed other than in relationship? The old systematic theologians talked about the impassibility of God but I never got that, never really related to it. Perhaps it doesn't mean what it seems to mean?
Maybe God is love, but how does that answer the question of the OP?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, if God is agape, and agape does not insist on its own way, then we have freedom. That isn't just freedom to louse things up. There are lots of good and kind choices we can make in life. There's as much variety in doing good as doing bad. Sometimes our choices get knife edged, it really is a case of either this or that. But mostly the range of real life options is a lot wider than what.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, if God is agape, and agape does not insist on its own way, then we have freedom. That isn't just freedom to louse things up. There are lots of good and kind choices we can make in life. There's as much variety in doing good as doing bad. Sometimes our choices get knife edged, it really is a case of either this or that. But mostly the range of real life options is a lot wider than what.
So how then does God [= love] 'give' anything? You say that agape doesn't 'insist on its own way', what is this 'own way' that it doesn't insist upon? Are we any closer to it giving 'freedom'?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Boogie. So that fact the we are weak and ignorant and faced with challenges in that, to 'choose' allegedly, whatever that could possibly mean (and yes I DO know what temptation is, but don't see how it applies to the vast majority of people in the vast majority of situations, including me) somehow justifies God, who is NOT weak and ignorant AS we are, doing absolutely NOTHING in the face of nature red in tooth and claw but incarnating with us.
I'm still stuck with God HAS to do nothing or there can be no creation AND we must do the right thing regardless. Job's comfort.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ Komensky
Personally, I was happy with Jack o' the Green's answer at post 2. But I guess you aren't.
I think of life as a gift. And I think it is a privilege to live this day and the next. So yes, God is for me the author and sustainer of my life. Within that context, I find personal freedom to be an undeniable fact in my life. You can feel free in a cell, imprisoned in a wide open space. But in both situations you have many choices about what you think and what you do.
[ 09. October 2015, 11:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
God is Love. How is that expressed other than in relationship? The old systematic theologians talked about the impassibility of God but I never got that, never really related to it. Perhaps it doesn't mean what it seems to mean?
I've heard impassibility explained this way: that God's emotions are not subject to sudden storms of passion, the kind of thing that knocks human beings off our feet and leaves us momentarily out of control (e.g. "in the grip of passion," "overcome by rage," and so forth). Our emotions vary in intensity and can overcome us and cause us to do things we're sorry for later; his emotions are always at their height and work perfectly together with the rest of his personality.
All of which is to say, they are STRONGER than ours, not weaker. Ours have a way of sputtering out. We also have problems with apathy. God does not.
His are also perfectly directed--he never gets it wrong and desires something that should not be desired, or hates something that should be loved.
I think this means there is no mere "mild approval" with him either. When he says we are his children, he means that in a mama bear sort of way, not in some watery philosophical way.
The other thing this means (at least to me) is that where we stand with God is something we have the ability to affect. We can "walk" from one area of emotional response to another--they are fixed and predictable, not constantly moving and stormy. The analogy I use in my own mind is that of the sun and Mercury--you could theoretically walk from the burning hot side to the freezing cold side and back again at your own choice, because the planet is tidally locked and areas that are hot, are always hot; areas that are frozen, are always frozen. So you always know what to expect and where the boundaries are. And if you don't like the weather where you are, you can move elsewhere and find a predictable difference. In theological terms, you can repent--and if you do repent, you will certainly find mercy.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Raptor eye. It is God's will, Her invitation that we be kind and just and mericful and generous and forgiving and humble and eirenic and honest and temperate and ... what other "guidance" is there? And you freely accept that invitation. How's that working out for you? God's being outside of now does not mean that She is outside the next now: that doesn't exist, that hasn't happened yet. There are no times, no nows in God. Time is now. There is just now. The future no more exists in God than the past. God has no plan therefore. I don't understand any of your terms except as metaphor at best.
'Intervention', 'Invitation', 'Guidance', 'Will', 'Freedom'. We are 'the plan'. We tumbled out of free the freest possible creation. Despite the fact I cannot visualize it except in the metaphor of a picnic walk in paradise, free of violence, of entropy, there is a resurrection, a transcendence. If it's concurrent with now or after the heat death of the universe or some point in between, no one can ever know until they die. There's no trace of it. It doesn't impinge on us in any way. But as God is before us, around us, in us, ahead of us and doesn't either, it will be there.
It probably doesn't matter at all what we think Martin - whether or not God has a plan, or is outside of time. What we shouldn't do but we do constantly is to limit God to our own limitations, or to think that our ways are God's ways.
It only matters whether we believe that God intervenes or not if we try to insist that others believe as we do. We have the freedom to disagree.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Even from a theological perspective I don't see that the OP is answerable—or least satisfactorily answerable. Again, even from a theological perspective, surely it's OK that it isn't answerable, no?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
God is Love. How is that expressed other than in relationship? The old systematic theologians talked about the impassibility of God but I never got that, never really related to it. Perhaps it doesn't mean what it seems to mean?
No, it means what you think it means and that's the problem. Impassibility is the one divine attribute Open Theists object to the most. It comes not from biblical or Jewish theology but from Greek philosophy. It just doesn't work in Judeo-Christian understandings of God. It flies in the face of everything that is written about God in Scripture, and inevitably means dismissing huge chunks of the Bible. We all have parts of Scripture that we struggle with and have to either "explain away" or set aside as "mystery", but those who hold to impassibility have to rewrite pretty much everything and have to constantly say "when it says this about God it doesn't really mean precisely what it says".
It just doesn't work in a Christian paradigm, however much some try to make it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Even from a theological perspective I don't see that the OP is answerable—or least satisfactorily answerable. Again, even from a theological perspective, surely it's OK that it isn't answerable, no?
K.
I think I'm too stupid to answer it satisfactorily. But I have these inklings which point me in a certain direction. That'll have to do for now.
Amusingly, I'm leading a home group discussion on total depravity (!) this evening. I definitely prefer the concept of freedom of choice to the (to me) horrendous consequences of Limited Atonement. But maybe I'm just soft-hearted about that?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I was accused of being unfair earlier in this thread. I probably was. In my meeting this morning we were discussion the third step, turning our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand God. It got me to pondering over this thread and my role in it.
My thought is that I ought to explain where I come from on this as a way of saying why it is not important to me whether or not God "allows" bad things to happen.
I used to think of God as some sort of cosmic vending machine who would pop out blessings if paid with the right set of sincerely and faithfully made prayers. That God never ponied up the way I knew that God should pony up. Things kept happening in my life, no matter how hard I prayed.
Now, my understanding of the care of God is a power that allows me to get through things the way they are - reality - with serenity and with the conviction that all I am asked to do is the best I can; the outcome is not up to me. This attitude towards life and God has given me more serenity than I can possibly express - when I work it. When I make it a theory, I manage to suffer and feel like a victim again.
Does that make God less powerful? Not to me. It merely allows me to deal with reality and what is going on NOW with strength and courage that emanates from God.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm still stuck with God HAS to do nothing or there can be no creation AND we must do the right thing regardless. Job's comfort.
Yes - there can be no creation in the way it has evolved, because God had to allow creatures to kill and eat other creatures all the way down the food chain.
I am veering headlong into wishful thinking and science fiction, I know - but I would have thought an all powerful all knowing God could have designed it all to work less horrifically. Yes, I know much of nature is utterly wonderful. But the foul stuff isn't just awful to the faint hearted (and that ain't me, I'm a tough old bird), it's horrendous to all except the ones who have zero empathy.
Does God have zero empathy? OK, he was human in Jesus - but what does that amount to really? He lived a life and died a death, so do we.
Was Job comforted or simply resigned?
[ 09. October 2015, 15:27: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Impassibility is the one divine attribute Open Theists object to the most. It comes not from biblical or Jewish theology but from Greek philosophy. It just doesn't work in Judeo-Christian understandings of God. It flies in the face of everything that is written about God in Scripture, and inevitably means dismissing huge chunks of the Bible.
Yes, that was pretty much the way the doctrine struck me in my salad days. I also slung out the perspicuity of scripture BTW. Used to say "It may be perspicuous to you but it sure ain't to me".
[ 09. October 2015, 16:25: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Boogie, it CAN'T be designed any other way. The laws of physics and creation beyond that allow for increasing complexity. That's it. God CANNOT make physics kind. He CANNOT know if it's going to rain tomorrow, let alone anything else.
Yes, for now we have to be resigned to ignorance. To the mystery. And that in the Resurrection there will be no complaints. Eventually.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Does that make God less powerful? Not to me. It merely allows me to deal with reality and what is going on NOW with strength and courage that emanates from God.
For an atheist of course there is no God involved which means that all along it is and always has been humans themselves who have dealt with everything and therefore it is they who deserve all the credit for overcoming difficulties. I imagine you would still rather God was involved, but may I ask whether you have ever considered that taking that credit would give you greater confidence in your abilities?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Boogie, it CAN'T be designed any other way. The laws of physics and creation beyond that allow for increasing complexity. That's it. God CANNOT make physics kind. He CANNOT know if it's going to rain tomorrow, let alone anything else.
Yes, for now we have to be resigned to ignorance. To the mystery. And that in the Resurrection there will be no complaints. Eventually.
I like that, 'cannot make physics kind'. Well, not if intelligibility is to be preserved, which presumably it should be, could be, would be.
'Eventually' - well, nice guess anyway.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It get the pathetic little finger twitching strength and likewise courage by being inspired by the story. Lucky me. I don't get it by magic.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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