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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why doesn't prayer work?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God. If the purpose is to get God to do something and/or to change his mind about something, then that's not going to happen.
Then why bother?
Hope.
Comfort.
Connection.
The two Cs can be in the other order per Banner Lady. It's not exactly a handout, because you have to hold your hands out (pay attention and be okay with the very idea of an ineffable something).
I think my ability to understand at a noncognitive nonemotive level falls into desuetude rather easily. Barriers abound. Mostly mine own.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I heard this morning that Job is at the end of the Jewish Testament because (sans the later addition of the "he got more stuff so everything is OK and better") it is an announcement that God is done intervening in the world.
Don't know if it is true. It is interesting.
I couldn't comment on whether or not it's a Jewish pov, but it's certainly not a Christian one, since Christians believe God intervened in a rather big way a few hundred years later...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't agree. Job's experience is what common folk get. The attribution to God doing it is only attribution. Not truth. The Jesus story is something else entirely. Quantum. And whatever collection of the miraculous, it was a one off + attribution.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
One-off or not, it is clearly post-Job, and if true, is a pretty significant example of divine intervention.
Phil. 2 suggests to me that intervention is part & parcel of God's nature. But it's not the sort of intervention we expect. We expect God's intervention to be a big display of power and might-- using all those omnis to zap the bad guys or vanquish our problems in a miraculous Vegas-style magic act.
But Phil. 2 suggests that the omnis are at best secondary attributes of God, since Jesus is able to give them all up and still be divine. It suggests the central, defining divine attribute is self-giving, sacrificial love. That when God intervenes it looks a lot less like a thunderous explosion of massive power-- and more like a servant with a bowl of water washing dirty, smelly feet.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I'm 29 and coming to a point in life where I'm seriously and deeply questioning the implications of questions like the one raised in the OP.
I find it quite discouraging that Christians twice my age don't seem to have worked out any solid answers to these things either. (That's not based just on reading this forum.)
I think I've worked out some pretty solid answers on this: prayer doesn't change God.
Absolutely true IMV.
Regarding Trin's comment, FWIW I think that prayer is worthwhile as Jesus specifically encouraged it. He chose the apostles after a night spent in prayer. This suggests that one function of prayer is to guide important choices.
However, If Mr C is correct as I believe then the purpose of prayer is to enable us to participate in God's actions rather than influence them. He enjoins prayers of agreement so we can participate in what he does.
At times this can be spectacular but most times it is hidden. However, As we pray God can reveal his will by the Holy Spirit.
As John says: (1 Jn 5:14)"This is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us..."
My conclusion? If we are not getting what we want via prayer, we need to be asking what he wants so we can agree with him.
One final point and that is if the devil is there, he is actively working to frustrate our prayers and their effects. Our discouragement means he has gained a victory. Jesus told a great story of the unjust judge (Lk 18:6) if you recall to the effect that men ought always to pray and not faint. The point as I see this is not that God was like that judge but that he wasn't, just in case anyone is wondering. If the unjust judge would answer a need under duress, how much more would a loving God do so?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him..
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In Jesus we see God fundamentally as She's ALWAYS been with regard to creation from creation's perspective, PLUS. There is God therefore She has omnis. God went FURTHER in Jesus than She ever did since the beginning of creation and since Him. In Him we see the proof of divinity, the proof of the power over life=suffering in weakness and ignorance, the 'created order' and death. We do not see it before or since. There is generosity: the feeding of thousands, all who ask. Healing of all who ask. Raising from the dead. The power of words against injustice and violence. Whilst Jewish society went to total destruction. The light was turned on for three and a half years in the life of one man in a hundred billion. That's it. Close your eyes and you'll see the afterglow.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Actually, if you google Mark Twain's religious beliefs what you find is not that he is a "well-known atheist" but rather that his actual religious beliefs are a topic of
great debate.
Thank you for the link which I have read- very interesting and I hadn't seen it before. Bearing in mind his wife's belief and the time in which he lived, I think he would be very happy in today's world of communication to be known as a well-known atheist! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) The article has to work quite hard to find quotes which could identify him as a believer. quote:
He certainly was a sharp critic of American fundamentalist Christianity-- in a way that would fit in quite well here at the Ship. Religion appears to be an area of great interest for him, both the negative but also the positive (his take on Joan of Arc). But whether he was an atheist, agnostic, Deist, or liberal Christian is a matter of significant and ongoing debate.
Agreed! He was a one-off though, wasn't he?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him..
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
Rather a naive comment. The world has plenty of evil people who try to defy God. And it always has had.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The OP answers itself. Prayer doesn't work because prayer doesn't work. Despite all efforts, there is no evidence—not a single example—of a miraculous healing. I'm not saying that one should not pray—and we've had some good arguments in this thread in favour of it. Prayer (almost irrespective of religion) has been shown to be helpful to the one doing to the praying—even if that is *just* consolation. When we need consolation, we are grateful to receive it ('belief' about where it came from is, to some extent, a separate issue). There are real dangers involved in 'prayer' culture, especially in Christian circles. Those dangers were raised in the OP. Evangelical preachers will tell you that if your prayers at not being answered, you might have some kind of 'blockage' (I heard this all the time at HTB, for example). There is some 'sin' on your heart, etc. This is just short of spiritual, if not psychological, abuse (not mention that it just good old-fashioned mumbo jumbo): you tell someone that the cure is within their reach, but their own personal shortcomings are preventing them from getting it. Hitchens put it succinctly: 'you are born sick, but commanded to be well'.
Some kind of prayerful or meditative practice really seems to be a good idea, but the idea that if only you can get it right, free up your spiritual blockages, your wishes will be granted by the creator of the universe, it just doesn't happen, ever, to anyone. I don't want to pick a fight, but rather give hope and encouragement to people who are told that God will answer their prayers, he doesn't, and then feel that there is something wrong with themselves.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
Quoted by Susan Doris
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Philip Charles:
quote:
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him.
.
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
OOps, try again.
Quoted by Susan Doris
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Philip Charles:
quote:
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him.
.
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
Of course he knows No one ever said the world was fair or that there was no injustice or that God's knowledge would stop it. God suffered this injustice himself at the crucifixion.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
OOps, try again.
Quoted by Susan Doris
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Philip Charles:
quote:
God already knows what you are feeling so your expressed fury etc is a sign of the trust you have in him.
.
If God already knows what you are feeling, why does God not know the feelings of those in areas run by, for instance, IS? Perhaps you think he does, and does nothing on purpose?
Of course he knows No one ever said the world was fair or that there was no injustice or that God's knowledge would stop it. God suffered this injustice himself at the crucifixion.
If God sees suffering and is able to act, but chooses not to act, then he is a very naughty god. If he's as nice as we are told in at least a few books in Bible (rather than those passages where he seems like a tyrant) then we can only hope that he is either unable to act or has a rule that he will not act—otherwise we face a God capable of tremendous cruelty.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Can we please not have a theodicy debate?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Excellent posts, Komensky. Just pointing out that 'born sick and commanded to be well' was quoted by Hitchens, and is much older in origin actually, from Fulke Greville, an Elizabethan poet, this written about 1609.
Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
Born under one law, to another bound:
Vainly begot and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound.
(Mustapha).
I don't think that Greville intended it as an argument against theism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Excellent posts, Komensky. Just pointing out that 'born sick and commanded to be well' was quoted by Hitchens, and is much older in origin actually, from Fulke Greville, an Elizabethan poet, this written about 1609.
Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
Born under one law, to another bound:
Vainly begot and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound.
(Mustapha).
I don't think that Greville intended it as an argument against theism.
Fascinating! Thank you. And yet the same dissonance is captured so beautifully.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, one day I must get to work, and read the whole piece, (Mustapha). On the other hand, maybe not, there's always something good on telly.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Thank you - very interesting. I’ve been editing quite a bit, but if I don’t post now, I’ll still be editing tomorrow! quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
SusanDoris:
quote:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
Well it all hangs on how you define natural. If you mean "fully explained by a set of deterministic chemical/biological processes which are measureable in principle, if not in practice due to their complexity" then I would cite anything down to the free choice of free non-determined individuals.
No, I suppose a better way of saying what I mean would be to refer to things that happen anyway, regardless of whether people believe in God/god/s or not; and that, of course, is everything. quote:
You are quite welcome to believe freedom and consciousness are essentially illusions but I disagree.
Since the words ‘freedom’ and consciousness’ came into being, their range of definitions has expanded so that, even with checking their distant origins, we’ll never know exactly what the originators had in mind. Whatever it was, it hoped to be a word to describe and discuss different aspects and behaviours of humans. Some people have then tried to define them as being somehow independent of humans and human understanding. quote:
Yes you can mount a case for it, a la Daniel Dennett, but I am just not convinced.
Do you have a link to what Daniel Dennett said, please? quote:
Of course, Christians have a broader concept of natural and would class, say, the decision of my wife to marry me, as entirely natural but not pre-determined.
I cannot see any reason why such reasoning by a Christian should be counted as ‘broader’ than a non-believer’s identical opinion. The Christian reasoning includes the unnecessary complexity of a God, instead of crediting humans with the evolved ability to act, whether or not such actions are split-second-ly decided on by the brain. quote:
So natural for most christians can include non-material causes, and non-natural would imply anything not part of the natural order, like as* Ass speaking. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
*I’ve listened to this several times - do you mean ‘an’?
What is a ‘non-material cause’? Every thought and idea which is not itself material is sourced in the material brain. It doesn’t matter what sounds in language are used to define and talk about those not-actually-materierlal things – standard example = unicorns – the material brain is their source. quote:
But most atheists are also materialists which is why I sort of assume you are.
Yes, certainly, but that does not mean I cannot think about and consider every idea considered to be of God (god/s) by theists. quote:
In the christian sense of natural, nothing has happened outside it, which is ok with me. It gets too random for me if Asses speak. Life's complicated enough without that.
I entirely agree! And it’s in the atheist sense of natural too!
[ 15. October 2015, 12:42: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
Yes: dissatisfaction.
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
Yes: dissatisfaction.
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
That's pretty, but surely there are quite a lot of explanations of dissatisfaction. For example, in some areas of Buddhism, there is the idea that the ego has split itself from reality, and then yearns to return 'home'. This does not involve God.
There are also many psychological aspects of being dissatisfied, but let's not go there, I've given all that up.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
O
Yes: dissatisfaction.
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
I can think of lots SD.
EM, that is extremely insightful.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
ISTM that in prayer, one seeks the comfort and the strength of God to enable courage and perseverance. Our compassion in the face of hurt and need makes us want God to change it and Indeed that may be ideal such as the child with leukaemia who died despite my prayers. However, in most circumstances you can't avoid suffering. Imagine a student praying an exam would just go away?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Why would you expect Christians twice your age to have developed clearer answers, Trin?
Well, to use the example in hand, because they continue to act like prayer does work.
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out, but if that's what we actually believe, it's odd that it isn't taught that way right from Sunday school, or talked about in those terms during the sermon at the 6:30 service.
So I conclude that we actually believe that it does work. I've been assuming there must be those out there who have well reasoned grounds for that belief.
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Trin: I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out, but if that's what we actually believe, it's odd that it isn't taught that way right from Sunday school, or talked about in those terms during the sermon at the 6:30 service.
I guess this depends on which church you go to.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I continue to pray, and I continue to hope for the answers I want (which of course I don't always get), but I'm bothered by the idea of prayer "working," as if it were some sort of automatic process or maybe a spell.
Prayer is asking. Asking a person, who can be just as unpredictable as any person is, and who has free will to do what he wants with my request. So when I don't get the answer I hope for, I'm forced to deal with the question of "why did he say no, or not yet?" which is an even bigger can of worms.
But that's also sort of a good thing for me, because it's easier for me to remember that I don't have God completely figured out ("My thoughts are not your thoughts," says the Lord) than to think that I'm screwing up some sort of procedure.
And because of the way I know him, and he me, it is easier to ... forgive? ... his not reacting the way I want/expect him to when I pray. It would be much harder and lead me to some nasty conclusions about him if I didn't know otherwise already. Which is why it doesn't surprise me a bit that those, like Huck, who pray without apparently any underlying personal knowledge of God, quickly go away with the idea that either God is a jerk or nonexistent.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... I can't help thinking that if there were solid answers, faith wouldn't be a matter of faith, just dry, systematic scholarship.
I appreciate the response. It's often been said to me in recent years that "if we had all the answers we wouldn't need faith". It doesn't sit well with me because I feel that as a line of reasoning it turns "faith" itself into the end goal, rather than the tool by which we get to some other end goal.
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Trin: It doesn't sit well with me because I feel that as a line of reasoning it turns "faith" itself into the end goal, rather than the tool by which we get to some other end goal.
This is just my opinion, but seeing the words 'faith' and 'goal' in the same sentence feels weird to me. Faith isn't a goal and doesn't have a goal. Goal-orientedness doesn't seem the right dimension for me to talk about faith.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
The impression I get from a lot Christians about prayer is that "of course it works". And when you give an example of it not working in some particular case they keep changing the definition until they find something that "works".
Or they blame you for wanting something that you should have no right to expect like your child not dying of cancer. Or a parent not suffering from Alzheimer's.
Of course if the person you are praying for gets better the credit its all God's. If the person dies the blame is on your expectations or your lack of faith.
While I sympathize with praying being useful for comfort and as a form of meditation, both uses I find sensible, I don't think that is the mainstream Christian claim.
Claiming that Christianity does not teach that our prayers will be answered, might be true for some liberal theologies but is not the bill of goods being sold by most churches.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Ikkyu: While I sympathize with praying being useful for comfort and as a form of meditation, both uses I find sensible, I don't think that is the mainstream Christian claim.
Claiming that Christianity does not teach that our prayers will be answered, might be true for some liberal theologies but is not the bill of goods being sold by most churches.
I do have the feeling that what 'mainstream Christian' is, differs from place to place.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lamb Chopped
Hmmmm. Purgatory.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I continue to pray, and I continue to hope for the answers I want (which of course I don't always get), but I'm bothered by the idea of prayer "working," as if it were some sort of automatic process or maybe a spell.
But you sometimes do. I never do. Never have. Never will. I thank Them for Their provision, including and especially this. In my frequent prayers.
quote:
Prayer is asking. Asking a person, who can be just as unpredictable as any person is, and who has free will to do what he wants with my request. So when I don't get the answer I hope for, I'm forced to deal with the question of "why did he say no, or not yet?" which is an even bigger can of worms.
That's what it is for you. Your story. Your take. It isn't for me. It never will be. As the Person I talk to is not unpredictable at all: They never answer my requests. Except in Their provision. And for me, They never answer anyone else's. And that is so encouraging. I lie of course, as try as I might only to ask rhetorical questions, I make petitions, a useless, tearful one for Pauline Cafferky yesterday. When she's dead I will thank Them for her life and look forward to meeting her. If she lives it will be by the miracles of science and her constitution. But she will never recover fully in this life. It's not possible. I was bitten by a Rottweiler just over a year ago. The chewed up finger looked like I'd been holding a hand grenade too long. Not a mark on it now. Works fine. The crushed one next to it will never work properly again.
quote:
But that's also sort of a good thing for me, because it's easier for me to remember that I don't have God completely figured out ("My thoughts are not your thoughts," says the Lord) than to think that I'm screwing up some sort of procedure.
I have Them figured out in the elephant shaped hole in the room of any expectation in life whatsoever. That's the procedure.
quote:
And because of the way I know him, and he me, it is easier to ... forgive? ... his not reacting the way I want/expect him to when I pray. It would be much harder and lead me to some nasty conclusions about him if I didn't know otherwise already. Which is why it doesn't surprise me a bit that those, like Huck, who pray without apparently any underlying personal knowledge of God, quickly go away with the idea that either God is a jerk or nonexistent.
For me there's nothing to forgive Them for. They've done it all and will yet. And therefore that'll do for now. I have that underlying personal knowledge of God. I have no reason to go away with the idea that either God is a jerk or non-existent.
What a fascinating faith we have in common.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I'm not quite twice Trin's age yet but I am a couple of decades older. And it's funny because when I was her age I did feel like it "worked". I could have given lots of examples of answers to prayer. I would also, I hope, have been honest about the times when I didn't get answers.
There was a long time when I didn't pray at all, because I'd walked away from my faith. But I eventually came back and I pray again. One of the differences is that I find it much harder to point to clear answers to prayer. But I still pray and I'm thinking about why.
So I think I pray because:
- it's comforting
- I've become used to it
- in some circumstances it's almost automatic
- because there have been times when if I didn't have God to speak to I've had no one friendly to speak to, and I really needed that
- and sometimes no one at all
- I might get what I'm asking for
- I might get what I need (whatever that is)
- I might learn to accept what is
- because the Person I'm talking to has asked me to
- sometimes I need to let that Person know how much I don't like Them right now
- and... sometimes prayer doesn't work, in which case it only really makes sense to complain to the Person responsible. Others can sympathise but only God can tell me why or make me OK with it.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Trin: I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out, but if that's what we actually believe, it's odd that it isn't taught that way right from Sunday school, or talked about in those terms during the sermon at the 6:30 service.
I guess this depends on which church you go to.
Indeed. I've been taught since I don't know when that there is only one prayer that always works: "Lord, let they will, not my will, be done."
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Trin: I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out, but if that's what we actually believe, it's odd that it isn't taught that way right from Sunday school, or talked about in those terms during the sermon at the 6:30 service.
I guess this depends on which church you go to.
Indeed. I've been taught since I don't know when that there is only one prayer that always works: "Lord, let they will, not my will, be done."
Open Theists would suggest that with something like healing we can assume that it is God's will-- because it is always God's will to heal, to restore. So we don't need to ask "if it is..." because we can assume that it is. But we also know that not everything that God wills happens in the world right now-- and this may be one of those cases. So our friend may not be healed, but it's not because God didn't will it to be so.
ymmv.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's got NOTHING to do with God. Except in Their provision. God's will is that we - transitively and intransitively - heal. Their will and their provision are one and the same. Prayer - therapeuo - is part of that. Like charity, it is its own reward, its own answer.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
The impression I get from a lot Christians about prayer is that "of course it works". And when you give an example of it not working in some particular case they keep changing the definition until they find something that "works".
Or they blame you for wanting something that you should have no right to expect like your child not dying of cancer. Or a parent not suffering from Alzheimer's.
Of course if the person you are praying for gets better the credit its all God's. If the person dies the blame is on your expectations or your lack of faith.
While I sympathize with praying being useful for comfort and as a form of meditation, both uses I find sensible, I don't think that is the mainstream Christian claim.
Claiming that Christianity does not teach that our prayers will be answered, might be true for some liberal theologies but is not the bill of goods being sold by most churches.
Good points here. The 'leaders' (God they love that word) in the UK evangelical scene not only believe that prayer works (in the mechanical sense; you can get what you ask for) but believe it to be an actual external force. I watched many, many times at HTB (and elsewhere) as the prayer tzar, a guy called Jeremy, asked the congo to 'aim a beam of prayer' at whomever it was they were praying for. Here in Canterbury I've heard evangelicals use similar language and even tell God 'we give you permission', etc. It is, even for theists, total and complete nonsense—and at least some of them must know it. Yet, it is part of their praxis and there is no way they'll change. I would go further still and say that many practices and habits of evangelicals are demonstrably harmful, but there is no way they'll change. Because they believe that what they do is 'anointed' (they love that word!) it, ipso fact, cannot be harmful, but only good. I should add a more cautious tone; of course I don't mean all evangelicals, I'm really only speaking of my experience with the HTB set and their satellites around the country.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's got NOTHING to do with God. Except in Their provision. God's will is that we - transitively and intransitively - heal. Their will and their provision are one and the same. Prayer - therapeuo - is part of that. Like charity, it is its own reward, its own answer.
I like this idea, but it is an all-too-rare one in Christian culture.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Komensky: I like this idea, but it is an all-too-rare one in Christian culture.
How do you know that it's rare?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Komensky: I like this idea, but it is an all-too-rare one in Christian culture.
How do you know that it's rare?
Ahem… 'seems rare'.
K. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Trin: quote:
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out...
I went on a course about stress-reduction techniques recently, and one of the pieces of advice was 'give yourself fifteen minutes every day to worry as much as you can about everything you can think of, then put all of it out of your mind and get on with the rest of your life'.
That sounds remarkably like a secular version of prayer to me.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Good points here. The 'leaders' (God they love that word) in the UK evangelical scene not only believe that prayer works (in the mechanical sense; you can get what you ask for) but believe it to be an actual external force. I watched many, many times at HTB (and elsewhere) as the prayer tzar, a guy called Jeremy, asked the congo to 'aim a beam of prayer' at whomever it was they were praying for. Here in Canterbury I've heard evangelicals use similar language and even tell God 'we give you permission', etc. It is, even for theists, total and complete nonsense—and at least some of them must know it. Yet, it is part of their praxis and there is no way they'll change.
I was just thinking of something which is (maybe tangentially) related to this.
The other day I was at an Evensong service where the Archbishop of Canterbury was in attendance unannounced. The Archbish had no role in the service other than giving the blessing at the end.
During the service, Justin Welby sat in the bishop's throne (or whatever it is properly called) in an attitude of prayer.
In fact, I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that JW looked like the weight of the world was on his shoulders, that the bishop's crook he was holding was physically the only thing holding him up and that the strength he was getting from being in the service was the only thing keeping him from complete emotional collapse.
Of course, I have no idea what was going on in someone else's head, but that is what it looked like from 10 yards away.
For me, that is a picture of what prayer is about. All the other stuff is just crap. If it isn't the only thing keeping you emotionally, physically and spiritually on the straight-and-narrow, then there is nothing of God in it.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Trin: quote:
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out...
I went on a course about stress-reduction techniques recently, and one of the pieces of advice was 'give yourself fifteen minutes every day to worry as much as you can about everything you can think of, then put all of it out of your mind and get on with the rest of your life'.
That sounds remarkably like a secular version of prayer to me.
Tangentially, to someone with anxiety issues it also sounds like "If you've done six impossible things already this morning, why not round it off with lunch at Milliways, the Restaurant and the End of the Universe?"
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Trin: quote:
I've noticed that no one tells you that prayer doesn't work before hand. Occasionally one of these conversations happens and the old "ah but who is prayer really for?" line comes out...
I went on a course about stress-reduction techniques recently, and one of the pieces of advice was 'give yourself fifteen minutes every day to worry as much as you can about everything you can think of, then put all of it out of your mind and get on with the rest of your life'.
That sounds remarkably like a secular version of prayer to me.
The concept of "putting these things out of your mind" comes dangerously close to denying or trivialising their existance. This may be OK for some things but, you will only have to confront them 24 hours later. Prayer ought to enable you to park them with God, not to be picked up later.
note: I agree that "passing Him the burden" doesn't have universal acceptance amongst Christians, but the idea of "forgetting about it" isn't my idea of a mechanism for coping with stress and anxiety either.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Is prayer about us, about our needs, desires, requests, our wanting comfort from God? (ISTM that bringing all of our troubles to mind might well have the opposite effect of discarding them, particularly if we thought that God wasn't listening.)
Prayer for me is primarily about my approaching the God I love, to give of myself to God as well as to invite God to be and remain in my life, as an acceptance of God's invitation to be and remain with him.
Also bringing to mind people and causes with love and compassion before God and asking for his presence to be known within them is a good thing, whether or not God is seen by those in those situations. It doesn't replace my visits or involvement, both are needed.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Can you think of one thing in your life which can only be explained by something non-natural?
Yes: dissatisfaction.
I know of only one plausible explanation for it: You have made us for Yourself, and our souls are restless until they rest in You.
Prayer, then, is not intended to supply our wants, but to remind us that there is only one way to be entirely satisfied, and to bring us as close as possible to that satisfaction in this life.
That's pretty, but surely there are quite a lot of explanations of dissatisfaction. For example, in some areas of Buddhism, there is the idea that the ego has split itself from reality, and then yearns to return 'home'. This does not involve God.
It doesn't involve the *word* "God" but...
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Tell it all to whoever wrote Matthew 21:22. This kind of verse is grist to the mill of those who then blame the petitioner for their failed prayer(s). The reason your prayers are not answered is because of your lack of faith. I heard this a 1000 times if I heard it once—it goes something like this: 'ask the Lord to show you your blockage and then repent of it, then the Lord will answer your prayer. If that still doesn't work, keep praying until still other blockages are cleared. If your prayer is still unanswered, you should consider that it was God's plan all along that your five-year old daughter should die a painful death from bone cancer; at least she's with Jesus now—think of how happy she must be!'. This might be followed by a quote from John Piper (they love him!) about how you should 'love your cancer' because it is a gift from God. Your cancer has to be a gift from God because everything that happens is part of his plan. This is the shit you will hear over and over again. Never—never will they shine a light on their dark practices. And here we are, a really interesting and intelligent collection of people—I'd go to the pub with any of you, if you'd have me along—trying to answer the harrowing question about unanswered prayer. Even if you are a theist, the humane answer can only be 'because God doesn't answer prayer.' That, at least, allows space for a God, if his only nature is to be good, to be free from owning so much distress, pain and suffering. If God does actually intervene from time to time, he might actually be evil.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I've just had a beer in The Blakeney, K. How far north from Kent do you come? Me and the missus stay in central London at least once a year. Twice so far this. I'd LOVE to stand you a beer.
As we drove here from sunny Leicester we talked of this. I thank God for Their provision of this forum, where my dull, impure pig iron has been refined. Most recently where Croesos confronted my special pleading for God's amorality. I have more Heraclitus loops to go on that.
Lonely are the brave K.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Komensky, I share your anger with this kind of crap, but it is possible to avoid it - even in a place like Canterbury.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Karl: quote:
Tangentially, to someone with anxiety issues it also sounds like "If you've done six impossible things already this morning, why not round it off with lunch at Milliways, the Restaurant and the End of the Universe?"
I didn't say it was a *good* course, did I?
I have no objection to lunch at Milliways, provided that (a) you are paying and (b) I am not required to have the Dish of the Day.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Komensky, I share your anger with this kind of crap, but it is possible to avoid it - even in a place like Canterbury.
Ouch! My London years with it were much harder. At least we have the cathedral here, which I adore.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
There's a question I've been thinking about during this thread. If Hosts think it should be a new subject, would they please say and delete this post? Thank you.
The question is: What about prayers in schools in the daily act of worship? Do they benefit anyone? If so, how? For some years when teaching I was responsible for the content of Assembly about twice a month. I do not regret that - it was the right thing to do at the time, but hindsight says I wish I had not been involved.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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