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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why doesn't prayer work?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, good Religious Education departments managed in England until the Tories marginalised the subject.
No they didn't - utter rubbish. Every school that has a Religious Education department has only been able to focus on a small number of world religions. Obviously.
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
[ 23. October 2015, 14:22: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
The world contains more than 8 distinct religions. There are obviously more than 8 forms of very different and contradictory Christianity in the City of Birmingham.
Therefore you cannot possibly be covering the prayer practices of different Christian denominations in Birmingham, never mind all of the other religions in the UK.
QED.
[ 23. October 2015, 14:33: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the purpose of prayer is not to ask God to intervene and to suspend the laws of nature, but to draw close to God, the Creator of the universe, as that is a good thing to do for our spiritual welfare and for the moral good of society as a whole, then none of the claims above about miracles apply.
It remains a good thing to teach children how to pray.
Ah the old "world is the way I say it is, therefore everyone should do what I say" mantra. Every person of goodwill should resist this kind of nonsense.
Rather, this is the truth as I see it, it is OK for me to express my opinion too. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jude.
I'll tell him that people neither he nor I know are lighting candles for him.
It will comfort him as he is lost to us.
But not to God.
Thank you.
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
[ 23. October 2015, 23:20: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are atheist teachers exactly going to be expected to do this?
It may be a good thing to teach. I don't think it's the schools' job.
In the same way as teachers have always been asked to set aside their own beliefs, and teach impartially. Teachers with faith in God are asked to do it all of the time.
It's surely as much the school's job to teach healthy spiritual practices as it is to teach healthy physical and mental practices.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Your source for tis information?
I have taught RE for nearly 40 years, been on a Standing Advisory Council on RE for 37 years and on National Standing Advisory Council on RE since its inception circa 1990 - so I can claim to know what was and is going on.
Before that, Birmingham SACRE introduced 8 religions/life stances - all of equal importance, in 1974.
The world contains more than 8 distinct religions. There are obviously more than 8 forms of very different and contradictory Christianity in the City of Birmingham.
Therefore you cannot possibly be covering the prayer practices of different Christian denominations in Birmingham, never mind all of the other religions in the UK.
QED.
My statements were in reply to teaching about religions (not merely 'prayer') - the post suggested that all RE privileges one religoin more than the others.
The Birmingham syllabus and my practice was to give each religion/world view equal time.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
Yes - and very good he is too.
Thank you for reply. Salutations to him from a fellow humanist!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Leo
Thank you for your interesting pm - it seems, though, that your pm box is full!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Leo
I am interested to hear you mention SACRE. Is (or was) there a Humanist representative on the panel?
Yes - and very good he is too.
Leo, when I googled it I got this from a Humanist site. What's going on? Is my quote out of date?
quote:
The controversial Birmingham syllabus for RE is unusual in explicitly ruling out learning about non-religious beliefs like Humanism and is marketed under the name ‘Faith Makes a Difference’, a title that implicitly denigrates those who are not religious.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Birmingham produced a new syllabus 2 or 3 years ago. The council had become Tory led and there is one particilar councillor who is very vocal in his antagonism to humanism. He writes email to many of us across the country and is a one-man crusade.
The syllabus I was referring to was its very innovative 1974 one, which was held up by the RE community as a model to follow.
It's a shame that this multi-cultural city has gone back to the dark ages.
[ 26. October 2015, 09:03: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
From the Diocese of London site:
quote:
It is required by law that Religious Education (RE) be taught in schools, but RE is not part of the National Curriculum, instead RE is a local responsibility. SACRE oversees RE and collective worship in Community Schools.
Each diocese has its own SACRE and sets the syllabus for that area. So, for example, the Newcastle Diocese includes the northern saints in its syllabus (Aidan, Bede, etc), whereas Chelmsford looks to be following the suggested national curriculum with very little local flavour and London is charging for its version, so I can't get beyond the prices.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
Thanks for this, Martin. I need to be reminded of it every day.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Jude.
I'll tell him that people neither he nor I know are lighting candles for him.
It will comfort him as he is lost to us.
But not to God.
Thank you.
YOU are the answer to your prayer. For now. A dim, brief flicker in the dark. Before the dawn of the Son's endless day.
That's very nice. I had the experience during a Zen retreat, that the question we were working on, (who am I? I think), was me, and I was the answer. The endless day also. Why wait for it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are atheist teachers exactly going to be expected to do this?
It may be a good thing to teach. I don't think it's the schools' job.
In the same way as teachers have always been asked to set aside their own beliefs, and teach impartially. Teachers with faith in God are asked to do it all of the time.
It's surely as much the school's job to teach healthy spiritual practices as it is to teach healthy physical and mental practices.
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
Heck, even teaching an explicitly Christian course at an explicitly evangelical college, that's all I'm doing. It's all "this is what most evangelicals believe/do re...." with a very explicit "ymmv".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
As an American I'm partially arguing devil's advocate here since the loud Christians we have are definitely not people I'd trust my daughter's religious education to. Still: Why is it different to have someone teaching your child about nutrition or how to choose books and about spiritual practices. There are things my daughter gets about nutrition that I think are not completely right.* And I certainly haven't agreed with some of her teachers' advice about how to choose a book. So what. I responded with how I disagreed and let her decide what to think herself. Surely the same is true of religion?
(If my daughter were getting religious ideas at school that I found scary and fundie, I'd reteach the topic in a more open-minded think-for-yourself way.)
*I suspect that's her simplifying or misunderstanding rather than her teacher being wrong, but the outcome is the same.
[ 26. October 2015, 19:38: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
When I was a girl, it was assumed that primary school assemblies in England would be Christian in character, and at my school, they were. My parents never worried about what happened there, as far as I recall.
These days, I'm sure that what happens in that same school is rather different. The intake is much more mixed. If I were going to send a child to the same school, I'd want to know how school assemblies had changed, and what 'prayer' now consisted of, or even if it existed at all.
(I've heard that some CofE schools with a very homogeneous intake occasionally suffer from some rather 'fundie' Christian teachers who run assemblies or RE lessons in a very particular way, but I don't suppose that's an issue in very many 'ordinary' British schools. In a multicultural city school such a teacher wouldn't last long.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Schoolteachers can teach children what prayer might mean for believers, and what different religions teach about it, but in today's pluralistic society can they really be expected to teach children how to pray??
I don't know if I'd want my children (if I had any) being taught some school's idea of what constitutes 'healthy spiritual practices'. How would I as a Christian/Muslim/atheist parent know exactly what that entailed? And what if I didn't approve of the school's spiritual 'help'?
I don't know if you have heard of
Prayer spaces in schools but they seem to work across all religions and none.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Thanks. It looks like a very good concept. There is one video about prayer-spaces in multicultural contexts, but on the whole it does seem to be rather Christian-dominated to judge from the contributors and examples used. But if that works for the schools involved then that's something positive.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
As an American I'm partially arguing devil's advocate here since the loud Christians we have are definitely not people I'd trust my daughter's religious education to. Still: Why is it different to have someone teaching your child about nutrition or how to choose books and about spiritual practices.
Because food, nutrition, etc are all real and clear evidence (scientific and practical) can be accessed in order to make a sensible choice. As far as spiritual growth is concerned, that term needs a far clearer definition, as all non-believers, all people whatever their beliefs, have spiritual/aesthetic aspects to their lives. quote:
There are things my daughter gets about nutrition that I think are not completely right.* And I certainly haven't agreed with some of her teachers' advice about how to choose a book. So what. I responded with how I disagreed and let her decide what to think herself. Surely the same is true of religion?
No - because although there are mountains of evidence about the beliefs and practices of religions, there is zero (i.e. as near to zero as makes no difference) evidence of any actual god. quote:
(If my daughter were getting religious ideas at school that I found scary and fundie, I'd reteach the topic in a more open-minded think-for-yourself way.)
*I suspect that's her simplifying or misunderstanding rather than her teacher being wrong, but the outcome is the same.
Agreed; frustratingly for the atheists and humanists of this world, the situation will change only very slowly, but if that makes for greater peace and security, then it is the best way.
[fixed code]
[ 27. October 2015, 06:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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