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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Was Judas especially evil, or just an average dude?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The question about Judas is specific, with implications about me or anyone. The thread is intended to be about extraordinary evil, Not about the fact that we all sin . My readings about murder, assault, rape, betrayal, genocide, ethnic cleansing etc seem to suggest that these are average people, not easy to distinguish from others except for some specific acts of evil.
Is it okay to try to understand the truly extraordinary evil acts that some people have done, or will our understanding create inappropriate empathy? Should we pray for the soul of Judas? Does anyone? What about Nazi or Rwandan war criminals?
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Judas is a deeply ambivalent figure and I've often wondered whether he was as bad as he's portrayed.
What do you do if you join a religious-political protest movement that you realize after a while is sooner or later going to bring you into direct conflict with the government? What if you find you start to have doubts about your leader and you aren't at all sure which way this is going, or that you want to be part of it, but you don't feel you can leave?
And what if that leader seems to be aware that you have doubts but because there is a prophecy you both know of, he's going to let you continue along your chosen path and won't stop you, or mention explicitly to anyone else that it's you who may break ranks? For your own safety (the rest of the group won't take it kindly, obviously), are you glad he says nothing, or not?
I accept that Judas' motives might be a question for a separate thread, if it doesn't fit here.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
What do you do if you start following a charismatic leader and come to wonder whether he is sane and needs medical attention? What if you are also rather naive?
Some people assert that the most serious crime of Judas was not the betrayal but his suicide, denying any chance of making amends.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I vote for average dude. And I've prayed for him.
[ 18. October 2015, 19:02: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
I think the entire point of the story is lost if Judas was especially wicked. In medieval dramas he was depicted as purely evil, Satan's best buddy. It is hard to believe that Jesus (or any sane person) would want someone like that on the team. It only becomes tragic if Judas really was intelligent and worthwhile and very nearly a saint.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I pray for everyone, especially those who have caused serious injury or death to other people - to think that they have the pain of those acts to face at some point, when they see God.
Judas was an average dude imv, either one who was greedy and ready to betray Jesus for money - I've known plenty of average dudes like that - or one who thought he was pressing Jesus into action and so doing the right thing by his actions, until he saw the end result.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I really think that up to a certain point, it could have been any of the twelve--human nature being what it is, and temptation/fear being what IT is, any of them could have fallen, or others of those close to Jesus--and statistically speaking, somebody was going to cave and do the deed. The only question was who.
So I can't blame Jesus for choosing Judas. I suspect that knowing exactly who would make that choice is one of the bits of foreknowledge he laid aside when he "emptied himself," and it was only toward the end that he became certain.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
I'm currently a bit busy on another thread, but there was an interesting 'take' on Judas in Dorothy L Sayers' radio plays "The Man Born to be King", suggesting Judas having made terrible mistakes but not specially evil in himself.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Two people betrayed Christ on the same night. One sought forgiveness and became a mighty apostle and some say first bishop of Rome. The other despaired of forgiveness and hanged himself.
I think the message is clear, at least to me: do not assume you are unforgivable. Seek and accept God's forgiveness.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Two people betrayed Christ on the same night. One sought forgiveness and became a mighty apostle and some say first bishop of Rome. The other despaired of forgiveness and hanged himself.
I think the message is clear, at least to me: do not assume you are unforgivable. Seek and accept God's forgiveness.
Not quite. Peter failed Jesus, but at the time was actually being more courageous than the others. Judas, though, had turned Jesus in, gone over to the dark side.
However, on the actual question in the OP, I'm sure the point is that any one of the twelve could have betrayed him. When Jesus says 'one of you will betray me', they all start to ask 'is it I?' They all know they have it in them, that they aren't quite as 100% as they might like people to think they were, or would even like themselves to think they were.
We're all like that.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Does that forgiveness and implied understanding/empathy extend to those who've committed mass murder within genocide? Is it just Godly forgiveness or is suggested that humans shall forgive also? Can we afford to forgive extraordinary evil?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
We MUST. Judas was just a bloke and will be fine.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not quite. Peter failed Jesus, but at the time was actually being more courageous than the others.
By denying him three times? How is that more courageous?
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Does that forgiveness and implied understanding/empathy extend to those who've committed mass murder within genocide? Is it just Godly forgiveness or is suggested that humans shall forgive also? Can we afford to forgive extraordinary evil?
It really depends on what you mean by "forgive." If you mean that we should let this person out of prison and give them a position in which they can do it again, I'm thinking maybe not. But that's not what I mean, nor I think what God means, by forgiveness. The Pope (JP2) forgave the man who tried to kill him, but he didn't spring him from prison.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
Remember that every person, without exception, is the hero in his own narrative. When Osama bin Laden brushed his teeth, he did not see in the bathroom mirror a mass-murdering nutbag. He saw a hero, a right-doing individual bucking heavy odds.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Remember that every person, without exception, is the hero in his own narrative. When Osama bin Laden brushed his teeth, he did not see in the bathroom mirror a mass-murdering nutbag. He saw a hero, a right-doing individual bucking heavy odds.
I'm not sure that's true. History is full of people who struggled throughout their lives with their own sense of worthlessness.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
But if you accept you are worthless, this is not a problem to you. It is the disconnect between a sense of worthlessness and the drive to be of value that is so destructive. Plus all those messages assuring you that you are worth that Benz, that chocolate bar, that woman. This is what drives young men berserk with assault rifles.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
We can't possibly know what Judas' motivation was, but the bits of clues we get from the gospels are intriguing: he apparently (along with the other 11) gave up everything to follow Jesus, lived and traveled with him for 3 years, then for some reason plotted against him-- and then, when everything turned out precisely according to plan, was filled with such remorse and shame that he was destroyed by it.
One theory-- and yes, it is just that, but an intriguing one I think-- is that Judas was a zealot who expected the messiah to raise up an army to overthrow the Romans. So for the whole 3 years he's watching Jesus gather a group of followers, show his power thru various miracles--- all looks good, but when does he start to gather the army? The theory is Judas was tired of waiting and was trying to back Jesus into a corner where he's have to fight and thus begin the revolution. Which could explain why he is so devastated when things turn out exactly according to plan. Note that Peter's first response when Jesus was arrested was also to grab a sword-- it appears to be only after Jesus shuts down that line of response that the disciples seem to fall apart and not know what to do.
We of course don't know if this is what's really going on or not-- the gospels don't tell us. But I find the theory intriguing because of what it tells me about myself-- about my own tendency to want to make Jesus into a messiah of my own choosing-- to want "force his hand" (as if I could) to defeat my enemies, rather than allowing Jesus to be that paradoxical, whimsical, upside-down messiah who seems more inclined to challenge me to look at my own heart.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
We're also told he had an embezzlement problem. Now you may wish to say that was added later to make him look worse than he really was, but since the whole story was written long after the events it may or may not depict, I'd say it's hard to tease apart which parts you want to accept and which parts you want to reject.
At any rate, at least lip service should be given to this accusation and an attempt to psychoanalyze Judas that doesn't give it a nod will be incomplete.
It certainly goes well with the idea that his reason for betraying Jesus was greed/love of money.
FWIW the Orthodox hymnody about Judas talk about "this man who for love of money" betrayed Jesus. So there's at least one Tradition that takes that point of view. Which is as pointed out quite in keeping with the plain reading of scripture. People who think the Orfies don't hold a high view of scripture, but who want to posit some other motive for Judas, have some 'splainin' to do.
ETA:
Of course that doesn't make him exquisitely evil or anything. Plain ordinary Joes do wrong things for the love of money every day. In the case of Wall Street day traders, thousands of times a second.
[ 18. October 2015, 23:46: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is Judas not a saint, somewhere in the faith? O felix culpa and all that.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Maybe Judas had Perpetrator Stress Disorder, which I understand that people who have murdered others in genocides such as former Yugoslavia and Rwanda are said to have: visions and dreams of killing, raping and maiming, along with emotional problems. Suicide is one possible symptom.
I get that we all sin. But there's a quantum leap from the everyday level of lying, wrath, greed etc we all do, to the mass murder in genocide. Are we all capable of betraying Jesus to torture and crucifixion for cash? Are we all potential participants is genocidal murders? Do we all harbour the will (not merely possibility) to slaughter? Before any of us say "not me", how can you be sure? I am almost convinced by my study of the matter, as motivated by personal experience, that I harbour all the capacities to do it merely because I am human, and to do it with motivation and a feeling of justification. Dare I say "joy"? As my inheritance from Cain and Joshua and all the homonid ancestors I am descended from.
(So how to extinguish this in ourselves seems to me to be the most urgent of human purposes. Violence to each other is the real original sin. )
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I've often wondered how the Calvinists square this story: how does the once-saved-always-saved idea work with Judas, how could Judas have resisted the redeeming love of Jesus and in what sense did Jesus chose Judas? It doesn't seem to fit the pattern as far as I can see.
I've heard sermons suggesting that God chose Judas specifically to be a betrayer - in order to set in motion the series of events which led to the atonement.
Personally I find all of the stories about Judas and the demonisation of him to be pretty unpalatable. Even a fairly "straight" reading of the story suggests that after the adolation of Palm Sunday, there was intense pressure on the disciples together with a sense of depression and let-down.
Maybe Judas persuaded himself that Jesus was just a clever magician and rhetorician after all - and that the Romans would just imprison or exile him. Maybe he was tired of being the only person in the disciple groupies who seemed to worry about the finances and was concerned that he had no life left, no money and nothing to show for the last 3 years.
Maybe the execution of Jesus came as a huge shock to him and as a result he committed suicide.
Incidentally, there is a pretty disgusting history of anti-Semitism associated with depictions of Judas.
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arse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not quite. Peter failed Jesus, but at the time was actually being more courageous than the others.
By denying him three times? How is that more courageous?
When Jesus was arrested, the others had bolted into the night. Peter at least tried to stand by Jesus enough to follow along to see what happened to him.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so... quote:
Does that forgiveness and implied understanding/empathy extend to those who've committed mass murder within genocide? Is it just Godly forgiveness or is suggested that humans shall forgive also? Can we afford to forgive extraordinary evil?
How do you think it is within our power to forgive those who have wronged other people? How do you imagine it is our function to do so? Isn't it a bit of a nonsense to say that we should forgive someone who has wronged other people rather than us?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There's also the idea, quite prevalent in liberal theological circles at one time, that Judas was actually playing a double-bluff and hoping to jolt Christ into taking up armed resistance to the Romans in line with the Messianic expectations of the Zealots ...
I've always found that a convoluted explanation - and also a high-risk strategy to all practical intents and purposes as it could so easily rebound.
Still, if we were to take a more Calvinistic view then it can quite easily be squared with the kind of more deterministic views associated with that theology ... Christ was betrayed and condemned 'at the hands of wicked men' but it was also by 'God's set purpose and foreknowledge.'
Acts 2:23
See: http://biblehub.com/acts/2-23.htm
That's the standard Calvinistic proof-text on this issue.
Funny things happen when we try to square any of these circles. I only found out recently that Pontius Pilate is venerated as a Saint in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church - presumably for his role in bringing about Christ's crucifixion, death and resurrection and thereby our salvation.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I think Judas was averagely evil, just like the rest of us. He was subject to temptation (money, recognition, siding with the powerful, whatever) and he gave in to it.
Jesus expected his own actions to lead to his death, I wonder if Judas expected the same? Probably.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I think the entire point of the story is lost if Judas was especially wicked. In medieval dramas he was depicted as purely evil, Satan's best buddy. It is hard to believe that Jesus (or any sane person) would want someone like that on the team. It only becomes tragic if Judas really was intelligent and worthwhile and very nearly a saint.
I incline to this reasoning (which I have heard before but can't recall who said it...possibly Dorothy Sayers). Judas had the intelligence and capacity for the highest good - tragically also therefore the capacity for great evil.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Judas is held to be specially wicked because he betrayed the Son of God and not some average Joe. I can’t help feeling there’s an element of hindsight in that interpretation. Whether Judas really appreciated the scale of what he was involved in I think is very hard to say, but I think it’s worthy of consideration.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's also the idea, quite prevalent in liberal theological circles at one time, that Judas was actually playing a double-bluff and hoping to jolt Christ into taking up armed resistance to the Romans in line with the Messianic expectations of the Zealots ...
I've always found that a convoluted explanation - and also a high-risk strategy to all practical intents and purposes as it could so easily rebound. ...
I agree. I'm also very doubtful about the value of an explanation for which there is no evidence in the only texts we have.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
We are all Judas for all of us have betrayed our faith in Christ many times. I know that I am guilty over and over but because Christ died for me he forgives these failings every day.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
How do you think it is within our power to forgive those who have wronged other people? How do you imagine it is our function to do so? Isn't it a bit of a nonsense to say that we should forgive someone who has wronged other people rather than us?
Forgiveness on the personal level is ending your own emotional gut twisting, high blood pressure causing, insomnia creating reaction to something another person (or corporation or natural event or God) did that caused our internal upset. Get back your own internal equilibrium. If you are upset by a mass murder you read about, forgiveness sets you free from being chained to that horror emotionally. This is separate from the determination of what amount of punishment, correction, rehabilitation, or mercy is appropriate in dealing with the mass murderers themselves.
By forgiving Judas for betraying Jesus, I open the door to my seeing him as a normal flawed person, someone who made a mistake, was horrified by the outcome, it could so easily be you or me, the challenge is can I learn from that somehow? Refusing to forgive, demonizes him which makes him "wholly different from me" and blocks me from seeing the ways I am similar and need to be watchful over my own motives and reactions.
The (human or divine) objective evaluation of what is the most useful thing to do with this person is a different topic, that's "judgment" in the neutral sense which may or may not include punishment in any instance. So yes, whenever upset, whether by personal offense or something told by a distant connection, forgiveness is always important, it helps us see clearly. Seeing clearly is what gets us back on track in our own lives or sets us off on a new track working to change/improve some aspect of society.
Forgiving is not forgetting or saying "that's OK" as if nothing bad happened. Dismissing the evil substitutes one kind of failure to see clearly (unforgiveness) for another (denial).
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Not quite. It's sitting lighter on one's own feelings. It might even be letting go of them. It's possibly taking more seriously Jesus's saying, 'judge not, that ye be not judged'. But its internal to 'me'. It isn't forgiving the person who commits genocide of their crimes against humanity. It doesn't change their situation either in this world or that which is to come.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
We are all Judas for all of us have betrayed our faith in Christ many times. I know that I am guilty over and over but because Christ died for me he forgives these failings every day.
Again, not quite. Judas's particular crime isn't that he betrayed, or defaulted on his faith in Christ. That is more like what St Peter did. Judas's crime is that he betrayed Jesus himself into the hands of his enemies. He was a sneak, a grass. He delated Jesus. And as far as we can tell, he did it on his own initiative, not under torture or pressure of any sort.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
We are all Judas for all of us have betrayed our faith in Christ many times. I know that I am guilty over and over but because Christ died for me he forgives these failings every day.
Again, not quite. Judas's particular crime isn't that he betrayed, or defaulted on his faith in Christ. That is more like what St Peter did. Judas's crime is that he betrayed Jesus himself into the hands of his enemies. He was a sneak, a grass. He delated Jesus. And as far as we can tell, he did it on his own initiative, not under torture or pressure of any sort.
I'm with bib. My "enemies" are my sins - the foes in whose presence God sets a table for me. And I betray that part of Jesus that lives in me into the hands of those enemies every time I give in to the temptation to sin.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's also the idea, quite prevalent in liberal theological circles at one time, that Judas was actually playing a double-bluff and hoping to jolt Christ into taking up armed resistance to the Romans in line with the Messianic expectations of the Zealots ...
I've always found that a convoluted explanation - and also a high-risk strategy to all practical intents and purposes as it could so easily rebound.
I agree. I think that this is an area where Occam's Razor can helpfully be applied. Why look for complicated and convoluted explanations when there are simpler answers readily to hand?
So I don't buy the idea of Judas trying to force Jesus's hands. And - for the same reason - I don't go with the idea that Jesus knew all along what Judas was going to do and so chose him for that very purpose. That just makes Jesus a cynical puppet-master.
The simplest explanation is that Judas was an ordinary guy who was tempted/tested and came up short. Just like any of us might have done. Was it the temptation of easy financial gain? Or did his betrayal come out of a sense of despair or disillusionment? It's impossible to say. Perhaps a bit of both. Let's face it - 30 pieces of silver was a hell of a lot of money. Ordinary people have buckled for less.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
How do you think it is within our power to forgive those who have wronged other people? How do you imagine it is our function to do so? Isn't it a bit of a nonsense to say that we should forgive someone who has wronged other people rather than us?
Because they live among us. Should they be encouraged to have an end like Judas?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Because they live among us. Should they be encouraged to have an end like Judas?
I think you'll have to explain that a bit. I regret I can't follow what you're getting at.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Enoch: I just don't think deferring forgiveness to God or the people who have been harmed or killed works very well in many situations.
Jesus wasn't personally available to counsel or discuss with Judas, and the disciples didn't do it either. The guy had no support, and he killed himself apparently.
Does a community have parallel responsibility to evil-doers in its midst? Does it make a difference what they've done? Considering a continuum of the daily non-illegal sins we all do, crimes within our communities, crime against other soldiers in war, crimes against civilians in war, wanton killing of civilians and atrocities, genocide.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Perhaps we need a crazy conspiracy theory saying that Judas did not commit suicide but was murdered. Who would kill him? Perhaps the people who paid him might have done so, if he decided what he had done was wrong and the consequences were not what he had expected or been promised.
As I said, crazy. It does sound like a plot for a movie.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Perhaps we need a crazy conspiracy theory saying that Judas did not commit suicide but was murdered. Who would kill him? Perhaps the people who paid him might have done so, if he decided what he had done was wrong and the consequences were not what he had expected or been promised.
As I said, crazy. It does sound like a plot for a movie.
My thoughts exactly, as I read your first paragraph. "Judas: a murder mystery". Probably need a love interest too.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Enoch: I just don't think deferring forgiveness to God or the people who have been harmed or killed works very well in many situations.
Jesus wasn't personally available to counsel or discuss with Judas, and the disciples didn't do it either. The guy had no support, and he killed himself apparently.
Does a community have parallel responsibility to evil-doers in its midst? Does it make a difference what they've done? Considering a continuum of the daily non-illegal sins we all do, crimes within our communities, crime against other soldiers in war, crimes against civilians in war, wanton killing of civilians and atrocities, genocide.
Even if it doesn't work very well, deferring forgiveness in those cases to God is probably all we can do. Otherwise, it reads like conceit on our part, and the assumption of a role to which we are not entitled. It's the fact that it doesn't work well, which demonstrates a painful agony that underlies much of human history.
Suppose I say 'I forgive those who perpetrated the Rwandan genocide'. That is not a noble statement. It's a trite one. The Rwandan genocide is a horrible event which happened in our own lifetimes. But I am not a victim of it. I did not know anyone who was. And those who were, are now dead.
I have no title to forgive on behalf of the victims of the Rwandan genocide. Perhaps their surviving kindred have a limited title to do so. If I purport to say 'I forgive those who perpetrated the Rwandan genocide', I am claiming to speak for the wronged. But they have never appointed me to make recompense on their behalf.
Worse, by saying 'I forgive those who perpetrated the Rwandan genocide', I would be abrogating the agony of those who are the victims, pushing it under the carpet, taking away a right to give or withhold forgiveness which is theirs and God's only.
I agree that there is a sense in which we delegate to the judicial system of our own country, the obligation to do justice on our behalf, within our own communities. That sense, though, is limited. Notice how often, people don't accept its conclusions.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Enoch, let me be more specific, though carefully.
Suppose there was a person in your community or church who had participated in atrocities? What then? Do we support, do we condemn, do we say to let God sort it out, and leave well enough alone?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Perhaps we need a crazy conspiracy theory saying that Judas did not commit suicide but was murdered. Who would kill him? Perhaps the people who paid him might have done so, if he decided what he had done was wrong and the consequences were not what he had expected or been promised.
As I said, crazy. It does sound like a plot for a movie.
My thoughts exactly, as I read your first paragraph. "Judas: a murder mystery". Probably need a love interest too.
Well Mary and Martha are just sitting there!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Perhaps we need a crazy conspiracy theory saying that Judas did not commit suicide but was murdered. Who would kill him? Perhaps the people who paid him might have done so, if he decided what he had done was wrong and the consequences were not what he had expected or been promised.
As I said, crazy. It does sound like a plot for a movie.
My thoughts exactly, as I read your first paragraph. "Judas: a murder mystery". Probably need a love interest too.
Well Mary and Martha are just sitting there!
Mary, I think. Martha is too high maintenance.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
What if his death had nothing to do with Jesus, and was all about Martha getting revenge for being dumped for her prettier, younger airhead of a sister?
Or was it Lazarus, defending the honour of his sisters?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Mmm. Love triangles shouldn't be the main plot. They should be one of the side tracks. The main issue should be much more imaginative. I think it is time for Pontius Pilate to get in there. He needs a net of agents, spying on the Zionist movement.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This thread is now officially dead.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There's a circus drama to write?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What about the story where Judas doesn't break his neck and eviscerate himself, survives the hanging and Jesus finds him barely alive after His resurrection?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Returning to something approaching semi-serious, does anyone have a thought about the purpose of the Judas story? Is it not intended to be a contrast to the failings of Simon Peter - and therefore, perhaps, to add weight to the theological idea that "he who perseveres to the end will be saved" (Matt 24:13)?
ISTM that Judas didn't really do anything worse than Simon the Sorcerer (fake healing without the Spirit), Ananias and Sophia (not giving the church all the money they got from a house sale).. or even the Laodicean church of the Revelations of John (neither hot nor cold).
Whilst some of these were treated particularly harshly (particularly A&S), none seemed to retain the label of traitor.
So what did Judas do that was so much worse?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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