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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is Feminism establishment?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Alex Cockell
Obsessing about feminism again, I see. Or, at the very least, in danger of doing that. Take my advice; don't ignore previous Admin strictures.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I suspect that this thread is meant to lead us from feminism-is-establishment to now-women-are-the-oppressors-and-things-are-so-awful-for-men.
From what I understand ( my brothers-in arms may correct me) the new wave of the men's movement is recognizing that the ideaology that preaches all men are intrinsically violent, uncivilizable, and prone to being rapists is misogyny. The " entitlements" our culture provides are actually traps-- those crass commercials featuring dads as domestic idiots and women as saviors of the house are insults. The premise that men are less relationship oriented than men in itself ruins men's relationships, a small adjustment to boys' somewhat higher activity level in early ed can eliminate the scholastic achievement gap. Basically, male " feminists" are beginning to lead the men's rights movement, because feminism has been trying to address how misogyny castrates men all along.
I was a budding feminist in the 80's, in tne US, and I never even heard of Dworkin till I joined the Ship. I heard of folk like Fran Leibowitz and Marlo Thomas. Both of these women had a very inclusive message and style of rhetoric; it was very clear to me, from the beginning of my identification as a feminist, that genuine love and respect for men was an essential part of the movement. Misogyny is the ideology that thinks men are " less than" -- not feminism.
It is depressing to think that a young man's first exposure to feminist concepts was of the Dwarkin variety, but Mousethief is right*--until you reasearch further, and find out what non- fringe feminism says, you can't discuss it with any accuracy.
Start with Anne Lamott. She loves men.
* Not to open a can of worms, but I remember one of my first Hell arguments with MT ever centered around some comments he made about feminists being God haters and men haters. I hope he doesn't mind me saying his growth in this area has been astonishing, and if he was willing to share a bit if his journey in that area, I for one would be eager to hear it. I've always wondered what changed.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Also to add-- solid feminists like Leibowitz and Steinham were throwing their weight to the gay rights movement in the 80's. Maybe Dwarkin seemed more prominent because everyone who was involved in general human rights was talking about AIDS. That's certainly how I remember the 80's.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
UKIP are exceptionally conservative politicians.
Exactly. And since the ruling class establishment is mostly liberal rather than conservative then adopting an exceptionally conservative position is anti establishment.
What planet do you live on? Only compared to America is most of the "ruling class" liberal.
Precisely, The establishment is inherently conservative. I really don't get where people think that UKIP is anti-establishment from. They are not - they are a totally establishment party.
[ 24. October 2015, 16:50: Message edited by: Schroedinger's cat ]
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(Mutters to self) compared to America, currently, the ruling class of the court of Henry VIII looks liberal.
[ 24. October 2015, 16:52: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also to add-- solid feminists like Leibowitz and Steinham were throwing their weight to the gay rights movement in the 80's. Maybe Dwarkin seemed more prominent because everyone who was involved in general human rights was talking about AIDS. That's certainly how I remember the 80's.
Dworkin and MacKinnon were joining forces with James Dobson and other Meese Commission bods during the Sex Wars. So fed into the whole David Alton/Mary Whitehouse stuff re video nasties etc. The whole push to ban all porn etc that made up the Sex Wars. Yup, also fed into the whole AIDS thing.
Feeds into SJWs talking over sex workers who would prefer the New Zealand model to the Nordic model.
So stuff downstream from Dworkin often sounds like the Junior Anti-Sex League. And was described as such by CHS when she spoke at Oberlin.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
* Not to open a can of worms, but I remember one of my first Hell arguments with MT ever centered around some comments he made about feminists being God haters and men haters. I hope he doesn't mind me saying his growth in this area has been astonishing, and if he was willing to share a bit if his journey in that area, I for one would be eager to hear it. I've always wondered what changed.
Blows my mind, and opens my heart, when I see people capable of change.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
* Not to open a can of worms, but I remember one of my first Hell arguments with MT ever centered around some comments he made about feminists being God haters and men haters. I hope he doesn't mind me saying his growth in this area has been astonishing, and if he was willing to share a bit if his journey in that area, I for one would be eager to hear it. I've always wondered what changed.
Blows my mind, and opens my heart, when I see people capable of change.
Funnily enough, those "feminist" voices in the MHRM you are hearing... Are exiled feminists from the 60s. Warren Farrell, CHS, Janice Fiamengo etc, Paul Elam etc. Pushing back against Germaine Greer's desire for Slaves And Scapegoats. Was interesting to note that Greer and Bindel have been isolated as Terfs, especially after Bindel eulogised Dworkin recently in the Guardian.
For the record, I have counselling starting up with Survivors UK soon.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(Mutters to self) compared to America, currently, the ruling class of the court of Henry VIII looks liberal.
Don't worry, Kelly. Everything will be better once The Donald becomes president.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Easy for you to laugh. I nearly shat my bed at that one.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Kelly - I think you are right in your assessment. The problem was that some in the feminist movement took the misogynistic route, and some of us men who would identify as feminists replied with the "not all men" line.
And the problem was it became a power battle, which was not what most feminists wanted. Most of us wanted to challenge the structures, not simply replace men with women (Having Thatcher in power made it clear that this would make no real difference). Highlighting all men as rapists is disabling of us, and it takes away responsibility for our actions.
Yes the battle continues, not just for feminism ideals, but for a proper understanding of what these are/should be. This is an ongoing battle. It is not over until gender is irrelevant to role, while acknowledging differences. We are a very long way from that.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
What was also pretty damn hilarious was seeing Susan Brownmiller chiding Jessica Valenti and Amanda Marcotte! Then again, did Brownmiller and Jong ever see eye to eye over shagging the more arrogant chauvinist types? The Mr Goodbars?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Schrödinger, it became clear that whereas Sommers et al wanted to challenge and move onto Enlightenment egalitarian ideas, Steinem et al came in funded with CIA money, hijacked if and wanted to BE the "patriarchy". Meet the new boss and all that.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If you are male and you have daughters, such will make you feminist at least what you understand it to be, and you'll want equity and equality.
The thread title asks a question, to which I'd say "no", it isn't if we consider establishment to mean "this is how things are organized and run". If you mean by the question, is it an ideology or set of principles that the established order and power seeks to promote, my answer is "sort of". It is what is supposed to be advanced and promoted, but it seems to be a rather thin veneer, with people behaving in conformity with feminist ideals, but their hearts and minds may be elsewhere.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Kelly - I think you are right in your assessment. The problem was that some in the feminist movement took the misogynistic route, and some of us men who would identify as feminists replied with the "not all men" line.
And the problem was it became a power battle, which was not what most feminists wanted. Most of us wanted to challenge the structures, not simply replace men with women (Having Thatcher in power made it clear that this would make no real difference). Highlighting all men as rapists is disabling of us, and it takes away responsibility for our actions.
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See,,this is the problem I am having. One moment you say, " some women took the misogyny route" and also " most of us don't want a power battle" (yes!I agree! ) but then you talk about " highlighting all men as rapists."
Most. Feminists. Do. Not. Think . All. Men. Are. Rapists. In fact, I think we work on the premise that anyone who rapes chooses to do so, and is not driven to it. It is old school patriarchy that says men have uncontrollable, ungovernable needs that have to be indulged. Perhaps the way feminists attack that specific argument has been misinterpreted as anti-man.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It is old school patriarchy that says men have uncontrollable, ungovernable needs that have to be indulged.
Well, I have uncontrollable, ungovernable needs that have to be indulged. At least every time I pass by these things.
Other than that, labeling anyone is an effort to short cut past accepting that person the way they actually are. It may be useful in some small set of circumstances (not that I can think of any right now). It is otherwise simply intellectual laziness.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
So, you agree that labeling people who identify as feminist as " misandrists who think all men are rapists" is not helpful to accepting them for who they really are? I agree.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Steinem et al came in funded with CIA money
Citation?
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
However, the public takeaway of the 1-in-10 and Rape Culture stuff is "All you males are on probation - you earn your provisional humanity by abasing yourself before your female overseers".
Hence the Sexodus, MGTOW etc... And this is basically the fault of the TERFs and SWERFs. The extremists - as the moderates didn't shut them down loudly and in front of mainstream news cameras.
Was only when I saw CHS (I tweeted the link to the Tumblrina burning her book to her), read Swayne O'Pye's Why Britain Hates Men (exiled feminist), Farrell's The Myth of Male Power (booted out after chairing NY NOW), Esther Vilar's The Manipulated Man (she received death threats from militant Gender Feminists) and saw Gamergate active...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Steinem et al came in funded with CIA money
Citation?
Take a look at this little lot. Top one on the search results is an old TV interview where Gloria Steinem discusses her time as a CIA operative.
https://www.youtube.com/results?q=steinem+cia
Oh - and this doc.
Feminism was hijacked, folks...
What happened to feminism?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
However, the public takeaway of the 1-in-10 and Rape Culture stuff is "All you males are on probation - you earn your provisional humanity by abasing yourself before your female overseers".
No, that's your takeaway, because that's what you've decided to take. You've decided you're more comfortable being the victim so you've constructed a narrative to fit that. Stop trying to make out you speak for anyone else.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
However, the public takeaway of the 1-in-10 and Rape Culture stuff is "All you males are on probation - you earn your provisional humanity by abasing yourself before your female overseers".
No, that's your takeaway, because that's what you've decided to take. You've decided you're more comfortable being the victim so you've constructed a narrative to fit that. Stop trying to make out you speak for anyone else.
I don't know. All I know is I hated myself, my sexual development was shut down when I was developmentally 7 and suicidally ate for 30 years from the cognitive dissonance.
Hopefully Survivors UK will help me through all this, and through my fear of sex and women.
Then again, when you have prominent voices echoing Valerie Solanas's lines that apparently men are a genetic aberration that should never be - or something - because the Y chromosome is a defective X chromosome... or something...
Who am I to believe?
[ 24. October 2015, 19:23: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't see very well where this fascination with not being 'establishment' comes from. Does not being establishment make you right?
There is certainly a school of thought that thinks that. Everything "establishment" is automatically bad, and everything anti-establishment is automatically good.
It's bollocks, of course.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Do you go looking for the nutters on the fringes of feminism? I know a lot of feminists and I've never heard anyone endorse the ideas you claim. Given what you've described about your state of mind, do you think that perhaps it might be an idea for you to simply avoid engaging with the issue entirely, outside of whatever professional help you're getting? Getting involved with the gamergaters and other extremists who dig up the bizarre fringes to try to discredit feminism will only make you feel worse about things. I haven't heard of half the people you name, and don't recognise half the acronyms either. It looks like you've reacted to views you've found toxic by immersing yourself in a far more toxic subculture. It's like reacting to getting sulphuric acid spilt on you by covering yourself in sodium hydroxide.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
If you've never heard of Solanis-- she wasn't just a nutter, she was dangerously insane.. Casually referring to her as an example of general feminist thought us definitely like quoting Phelps as a representative of mainstream Christianity.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas
She had paranoid schizophrenia, maybe she was also an unpleasant person, or maybe that is just what the illness did to her. Either way, it was a tragedy for everyone caught up in the damage. I am not comfortable using the term 'nutter' to describe her though.
I note her misandry arose out of history of childhood physical and sexual abuse by men, perhaps then we can understand why she may have held such views/delusions, even if we do not agree with them.
[ 24. October 2015, 19:44: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
(Reply to Kelly). That's right. Solanas was right out on the extreme wing. There was a strand of man-hating in US feminism, Mary Daly for example, but to see all of feminism like that is absurd. In the UK, it was smaller also, and was combated by people like Lynne Segal ('Is the Future Female?').
But some men like to place themselves as victims to a voracious feminism - just another fantasy really. I am a bloke who got involved in feminist discussions, and it was brilliant really, and also led to some male 'consciousness raising'. I wasn't afraid of having my nuts cut off.
[ 24. October 2015, 19:46: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
If you've never heard of Solanis-- she wasn't just a nutter, she was dangerously insane.. Casually referring to her as an example of general feminist thought us definitely like quoting Phelps as a representative of mainstream Christianity.
Then why did Ti-Grace Anderson laud her in the 70s during her tenure at the top of NOW?
MAry Daly and Sally Miller Gearhart wrote the original gender studies curricula, which fed in Daly's ideas about massacring 90% of men; this saw its latest incarnation in Bahar Mustapha tweeting #killallwhitemen in her role as Diversity Officer at Goldsmith's College - and getting arrested for it...
And Sarah Noble MP tweeting #killallmen.
Add in Greer's view that men should be slaves and scapegoats...
hence the rise of MGTOW after men were slandered as "rapists" and worse...
I know there are egalitarian feminists.. but it's difficult to see them at times... or I see the pushback by Sommers' faction.
[ 24. October 2015, 19:51: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I don't even know who that chick is, so obviously whatever bombastic remarks she might have said hasn't significantly influenced general feminist thought.
Jeez, the 70's was all about people trying to top each other with aggressive rhetoric. The Black Panthers said " off the pigs" a lot, so does that mean we are absolved from investigating any of the ussues raised by the "Black lives matter" campaign?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
One effect of the legal skewing by the unchecked man-hating contingent within Feminism has been the massive rise in male suicide...
Male suicide scandal
Re the misandry in Cabinet Ministers tweeting "killallmen" - the fear is this could lead to a misandric Home Secretary in a matriarchy writing orders that would lead to hapless males like me being shot in the head by armed police for the crime of being born male.
OK - a nightmare scenario...
PLEASE Feminists, call out and stop your extremists.
[ 24. October 2015, 19:58: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It is more to do with the methods men choose, which tend to be more violent and less survivable than those chosen by women, than the number of attempts made by either gender.
Correlation is not cause.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Precisely, The establishment is inherently conservative. I really don't get where people think that UKIP is anti-establishment from. They are not - they are a totally establishment party.
There's a whole number of areas, the EU, immigration, education policy etc where UKIP oppose the establishment. Of course they are opposing it from the right rather than opposing it from the left as you might. Are you seriously suggesting that UKIP are not right wing enough to oppose the establishment from the right? How right wing do you think a party needs to be to oppose the establishment from the right?
[ 24. October 2015, 20:02: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
That article on men's suicide levels is partial. Boys' underachievement in schools (pdf) has been recognised for years, that article is from 2013, but it's been in the education news for a very long time and there are grants for schools to improve boys' achievement. More research from 2007
The GCSE exam changes that came in this September sweep away coursework and leave the qualifications to be based on final exams, which will suit boys better. Incidentally they make the exams much harder, which won't help boys with SEN as they remain disadvantaged.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That article on men's suicide levels is partial. Boys' underachievement in schools (pdf) has been recognised for years, that article is from 2013, but it's been in the education news for a very long time and there are grants for schools to improve boys' achievement. More research from 2007
The GCSE exam changes that came in this September sweep away coursework and leave the qualifications to be based on final exams, which will suit boys better. Incidentally they make the exams much harder, which won't help boys with SEN as they remain disadvantaged.
Difficult balancing it.. as I know I did OK with some elements of coursework - in my ND, HND etc...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
As someone whose academic discipline (Women's History) dovetails with many areas of feminism, as someone who read Spare Rib in the 80s and Harpies & Quines in the 90s, as a member of several organisations which would describe themselves as feminist, as someone with a Masters in Women's Studies (albeit my dissertation was on Victorian women) and as someone with a suffragette outfit hanging in her wardrobe, I have never heard of half the women or virtually any of the acronyms Alex Cockell is quoting.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
One effect of the legal skewing by the unchecked man-hating contingent within Feminism has been the massive rise in male suicide...
Male suicide scandal
Re the misandry in Cabinet Ministers tweeting "killallmen" - the fear is this could lead to a misandric Home Secretary in a matriarchy writing orders that would lead to hapless males like me being shot in the head by armed police for the crime of being born male.
OK - a nightmare scenario...
PLEASE Feminists, call out and stop your extremists.
What's the point in you making up implausible nightmare scenarios?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
One effect of the legal skewing by the unchecked man-hating contingent within Feminism has been the massive rise in male suicide...
Male suicide scandal
Re the misandry in Cabinet Ministers tweeting "killallmen" - the fear is this could lead to a misandric Home Secretary in a matriarchy writing orders that would lead to hapless males like me being shot in the head by armed police for the crime of being born male.
OK - a nightmare scenario...
PLEASE Feminists, call out and stop your extremists.
What's the point in you making up implausible nightmare scenarios?
is it really that implausible? Sarah Noble was a fucking CABINET MINISTER! They have access to lethal power in the form of the police and military. I don't.
Never mind the progressive stack - it all collapses to a REALLY shitty position to be in at the bottom of the totem pole...
A white homeless male has more power and "privilege" than Theresa May, the Home Secretary? Are you kidding me?!
Have a read of Neil Lyndon's Sexual Impolitics - originally published as No More Sex War in 1992 - it covers how this totalitarian core kinda skewed things..
Also - Erin Pizzey - This way to the revolution another early feminist who was exiled by militant genderfems.
[ 24. October 2015, 20:29: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Sarah Noble was a fucking CABINET MINISTER!
Minister of what, exactly?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Sarah Noble was a fucking CABINET MINISTER!
Minister of what, exactly?
This should cover it...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Most. Feminists. Do. Not. Think . All. Men. Are. Rapists. In fact, I think we work on the premise that anyone who rapes chooses to do so, and is not driven to it. It is old school patriarchy that says men have uncontrollable, ungovernable needs that have to be indulged. Perhaps the way feminists attack that specific argument has been misinterpreted as anti-man.
I completely agree. I may have expressed it badly, but there HAVE BEEN those who claim to be feminists and claim that most men are rapists. I know that this is not normal or usual. It is a wrong approach that is misogynistic, not feminist.
That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry if I made it badly.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Sarah Noble was a fucking CABINET MINISTER!
Minister of what, exactly?
This should cover it...
So - not a cabinet minister at all, then, right? (Let alone a "fucking CABINET MINISTER!") And didn't "have access to lethal power in the form of the police and military." I seriously doubt if anyone before you has ever trembled before the awesome power of a "LibDem executive committee member".
But then you also said this:
quote:
A white homeless male has more power and "privilege" than Theresa May, the Home Secretary? Are you kidding me?!
Are you claiming the Tory Home Secretary has been threatening you, too?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Sarah Noble was a fucking CABINET MINISTER!
Minister of what, exactly?
This should cover it...
She's never even been an MP. Just a student union person who got on the Lib Dem exec. and swiftly got kicked off.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Oh - just something else - Germaine Greer was recently excommunicated from current "intersectional" feminism...
Reddit thread
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Sarah Noble was a fucking CABINET MINISTER!
Minister of what, exactly?
This should cover it...
So - not a cabinet minister at all, then, right? (Let alone a "fucking CABINET MINISTER!") And didn't "have access to lethal power in the form of the police and military." I seriously doubt if anyone before you has ever trembled before the awesome power of a "LibDem executive committee member".
But then you also said this:
quote:
A white homeless male has more power and "privilege" than Theresa May, the Home Secretary? Are you kidding me?!
Are you claiming the Tory Home Secretary has been threatening you, too?
Oh - that was on the back of trying to understand this "progressive stack" thing that somehow holds the average white male as responsible for all the bad in the world according to 3rd wave something..
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
is it really that implausible? Sarah Noble was a fucking CABINET MINISTER! They have access to lethal power in the form of the police and military. I don't.
Never mind the progressive stack - it all collapses to a REALLY shitty position to be in at the bottom of the totem pole...
A white homeless male has more power and "privilege" than Theresa May, the Home Secretary? Are you kidding me?!
Does anyone actually claim that? You're misunderstanding what the idea of privilege is attempting to explain. It's meant to be a shorthand for things like: a man and a woman alone in a lift together, only the woman is likely to be worrying about her safety. When we lived in a major city, I'd walk home from the station after dark with no major concerns, but my wife didn't feel safe walking around at night. It's about the everyday things that, in general, men can take for granted that women can't; that white people in the UK or US can take for granted that black people can't.
And yes, your scenario is implausible. Do you honestly think, for one second, that Sarah Noble (not a cabinet minister as far as I can see) was advocating killing all or even any men with that tweet? It was a poor taste joke that justifiably got her suspended from the lib dem executive. Have you any idea how many stupid things are said on social media, including by MPs, on any given day? We have a government that is killing disabled people and you're worrying about a bad joke and pretending it was meant to be taken seriously.
[ 24. October 2015, 20:58: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Then again, when you have prominent voices echoing Valerie Solanas's lines that apparently men are a genetic aberration that should never be - or something - because the Y chromosome is a defective X chromosome... or something...
Who am I to believe?
Much as I take issue with a certain kind of academic feminism that tends to flourish on college campuses (and which I sometimes think has a tendency to shelter the already privileged at the expense of the already downtrodden), I'm having trouble believing that you really and truly think these extreme views are considered 'mainstream feminism' by most.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Oh - just something else - Germaine Greer was recently excommunicated from current "intersectional" feminism...
Reddit thread
As a general rule (since you asked who you should believe): never ever believe anything you read on reddit. Seriously, if someone on reddit posts that the sky is blue, you should triple check the information with three separate reliable sources.
You should likely also stay away from anything mentioning gamergate or SJW's.
That's just my two cents.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
But then you also said this:
quote:
A white homeless male has more power and "privilege" than Theresa May, the Home Secretary? Are you kidding me?!
Are you claiming the Tory Home Secretary has been threatening you, too?
Oh - that was on the back of trying to understand this "progressive stack" thing that somehow holds the average white male as responsible for all the bad in the world according to 3rd wave something..
I see - so Theresa May is a threat to you in about the same way that Sarah Noble was a Cabinet minister, i.e. not at all, really.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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