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Source: (consider it) Thread: Isms, was-ms and 'sectional' contributions
Gamaliel
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This thread is inspired by conversations on the 'Going Forward' thread about the possible future for a major UK denomination.

It's been suggested that the Methodists in the UK should stop trying to remain a denomination but allow their 'leaven' to spread across the whole 'lump' by reverting to a movement or ethos - which is how they started, of course.

I recently met an interesting RC chap who works with religious orders and movements in the RCC - and elsewhere - to help them identify and articulate their core distinctives and recast or rebrand them for a 21st century audience.

This struck me as an intriguing concept.

Back in my restorationist 'new church' days we used to say - among other things - 'let all your isms become was-ms' ... like as if we weren't also an 'ism' ourselves ...

My questions here are:

- Is such a position possible for the Methodists (or any other denomination we might mention)?

- What would this look like in practice if it were?

- How feasible, desirable or realistic is it as an aspiration for any denomination or grouping that might be considered 'at risk' demographically?

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Stetson
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Just as a clarifying example, what you're talking about would be something similar to, say, thc charismatic movement, which has followers in numerous denominations, but isn't actually a denomination itself?
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fletcher christian

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Like the Church of South India?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Like the Church of South India?

Fletcher Christian, you'll have to explain your reference. Isn't the Church of South India a Protestant denomination formed in South India by the amalgamation of a number of previously separate churches? As such, it's the opposite of what Gamaliel and Stetson have called as a movement.

[ 27. October 2015, 14:33: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in my restorationist 'new church' days we used to say - among other things - 'let all your isms become was-ms' ... like as if we weren't also an 'ism' ourselves ...

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Just as a clarifying example, what you're talking about would be something similar to, say, thc charismatic movement, which has followers in numerous denominations, but isn't actually a denomination itself?

Wouldn't that make it the charwasmatic movement? For that matter, shouldn't Gamaliel be referring to "my restorationwast 'new church' days"?

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Gamaliel
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Yes, that's the sort of thing I had in mind, Stetson - more like a movement or ethos that extends across denominational boundaries, such as the charismatic movement or 'sacramentalism' even, which can be found beyond the boundaries of the more avowedly sacramentalist Churches such as the RCC and the Orthodox.

Or evangelicalism, say, which is also found across a wide range of denominations and can't be pinned down to any one particular Church or group.

The Church of South India, as I understand it, is more of an ecumenical, pan-denominational experiment. Aspects of the way it operates may be pertinent to this discussion but it functions as a church per se rather than as a 'movement' or an ethos ...

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Gamaliel
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Ha ha Croesos ... but as there are people who are still charismatic and still into the restorationist thing ... it isn't a 'was-m' for them, however much it might be for me ...

So these things are still 'isms' for those who're involved with them.

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North East Quine

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Methodists here are already attending Church of Scotland services; the nearest Methodist congregations to my village are 16 miles in one direction (which is feasible) or 84 miles away in the other direction (which isn't). At least one of our ordained elders has a Methodist background, and became Church of Scotland in order to worship locally.
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Pomona
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I know a lot of Methodists from a bunch of socially aware Christian places (SCM, Greenbelt, what have you) and friends training to be ministers. I am very interested in their future and shall be watching this thread with interest.

Intrigued by the RC chap going around the religious orders - wonder if ARC [Anglican Religious Communities, the body representing religious orders in the UK) could do with similar!

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I recently met an interesting RC chap who works with religious orders and movements in the RCC - and elsewhere - to help them identify and articulate their core distinctives and recast or rebrand them for a 21st century audience.

This struck me as an intriguing concept.
Back in my restorationist 'new church' days we used to say - among other things - 'let all your isms become was-ms' ... like as if we weren't also an 'ism' ourselves ...

My questions here are:

- Is such a position possible for the Methodists (or any other denomination we might mention)?

- What would this look like in practice if it were?

- How feasible, desirable or realistic is it as an aspiration for any denomination or grouping that might be considered 'at risk' demographically?

I don't think the idea is that Methodism should lose the 'ism' that gives it its identity, but that it might or should lose its denominationalism.

This is rather different, I presume, from what the RC guy is trying to do to drum up interest in RC religious orders. I imagine that the new monks and nuns (or whatever modern label they adopt) he wants to attract should still be committed to the RCC as a distinct denomination.

Or would I be wrong on that?? It would certainly be interesting to hear that the RCC was willing to draw in would be religious who didn't have to become RCs first. Very interesting indeed. Is that a possibility?

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Methodists here are already attending Church of Scotland services; the nearest Methodist congregations to my village are 16 miles in one direction (which is feasible) or 84 miles away in the other direction (which isn't). At least one of our ordained elders has a Methodist background, and became Church of Scotland in order to worship locally.

Some 50 years after their Canadian equivalents, the Methodists, Congregationalists and most Presbyterians here merged in the 1970's into the Uniting Church. Some Presbyterians continued as an individual body (a much more accurate use of "continuing" than the Anglican equivalent, but that's another story). From an outsider's perspective, its taken until very recently for the individual threads to disappear and a united church start to show itself. It is theological liberal when it is anything, while the continuing Presbyterians are very conservative on most of the button-touching questions. The real spur was declining numbers rather than a flash of ecumenism.

[ 27. October 2015, 20:02: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The real spur was declining numbers rather than a flash of ecumenism.

Some would say that these two things almost always go together. This would certainly be the case in British Christianity today.
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Gamaliel
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What the RC chap was aiming to do was help some these orders do was explain their particular 'mission', 'charism' (to use an RC word) and distinctives in order to build understanding, gain support (financial and in other ways) and through that develop an interest in vocations ...

It wasn't all about recruitment as such, more a case of, 'Well, if you've ever wondered what the Dominicans do, here's something that'll tell you more about us ...'

So there'd be nice photos of monasteries and details of particular forms of prayer and spirituality and so on.

An RC priest I once knew told me about a conference he'd attended where it was mooted that the life-expectancy or active 'floruit' of a religious order was around 600 years whilst for that of a Protestant denomination it was around 250-300 years - in which case the Methodists are coming to the end of their shelf-life - and for 'new church' type set-ups the life-expectancy was around the life-span of their founder members ...

I'm not sure how true that is, the Anglicans have been around for nearly 500 years, for instance and the Pentecostals have been around for about a century ...

The RC chap was also working with some Protestant groups now - including Australian Baptists where they're aiming to retain a Christian ethos with a faith-based hospital/medical initiative that has expanded beyond its original Baptist roots.

Apparently, most health services in Australia developed from one or other of the Christian churches and denominations.

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Enoch:
quote:

Fletcher Christian, you'll have to explain your reference. Isn't the Church of South India a Protestant denomination formed in South India by the amalgamation of a number of previously separate churches? As such, it's the opposite of what Gamaliel and Stetson have called as a movement.

I guess it depends on what you think constitutes a church. As Gam pointed out, it is an ecumenical amalgam of denominations. If the ecumenical movement isn't a movement, then I guess it wouldn't be relevant.
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Pomona
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I am fairly sure that the Church of South India is at least partially how it is due to the relatively low numbers of Protestants in India, and so joining forces makes practical sense. It's not a movement, more like something akin to the URC or other United Churches on a wider scale.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's been suggested that the Methodists in the UK should stop trying to remain a denomination but allow their 'leaven' to spread across the whole 'lump' by reverting to a movement or ethos - which is how they started, of course.

Hmm, interesting... Especially as, like you say, that's precisely how Methodism started.

I'd only see it as feasible with a denomination that can clearly define what it stands for. Movements, like the charismatic movement, need a clear ethos, so that one can say 'I am part of the ... movement because I do / believe / practice this or that thing'. Does present-day Methodism have a distinctive defining feature like this...?

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Gamaliel
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I think that's an interesting point, South Coast Kevin.

Arguably, it's a lot easier for the charismatic movement as it has a set of readily definable common feature irrespective as to how much individual charismatics may differ in terms of churchmanship, theology, ecclesiology and praxis.

Equally though, whilst it used to be the case that Pentecostals could be easily identified and defined by their belief in 'tongues', 'prophecy' and supernatural healing etc - I'm not sure this is so apparent across the wider charismatic movement. A lot of the traditional Pentecostals were somewhat alarmed at the apparent lack of emphasis on tongues and so on in favour of more physical manifestations - laughing, crying, falling etc - during the Toronto Blessing thing 20 years ago now.

Whilst tongues, prophecy and other spiritual gifts are still emphasised across the contemporary charismatic movement across the denominations, they aren't necessarily as prominent as they used to be when they were seen as THE single defining feature.

I'm intrigued by SvitlanaV2's point about maintaining distinctives whilst losing denominationalism.

I wonder how feasible this is?

Can a group that has become denominationalised de-denominationalise itself?

What would that involve and how would it look?

Equally, I'm not so convinced that those things that HAVE been identified so far on this thread as Methodist distinctives ARE that distinctive ... they certainly aren't unique.

It would be very easy to find URCs, Anglicans, Catholics and others with very similar concerns.

With the charismatic thing, it's easier to identify and define a particular spirituality - or set of spiritualities - far easier, in fact, than identifying a common theology - the old 'a spirituality in search of a theology' canard.

I think it's less easy to do so with Methodism - or even Wesleyanism as a subset of that if we want to be pernickety.

Arguably, groups like the Salvation Army and the Church of the Nazarene are more 'Wesleyan' than contemporary mainstream Methodism is.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm intrigued by SvitlanaV2's point about maintaining distinctives whilst losing denominationalism.

I wonder how feasible this is?

Can a group that has become denominationalised de-denominationalise itself?

What would that involve and how would it look?

A question I'd add - is there a convincing example of such a transition from denomination to ethos / movement across several denominations?

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Gamaliel
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I'd be interested to hear if there was.

As with much else with Martyn Percy, whilst I think his analysis can be insightful, I'm less convinced of his ability to diagnose any sensible solutions.

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Jengie jon

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Methodism is probably not the right place to start. They are the most archetypical denomination there is among the mainstream grouping.

Roman Catholicism and Church of England make claims about being "the Church" while historic dissenting denominations are rather half-hearted about the institutional aspects of denominationalism and strive for minimal theological agreement to allow central provision. If you like we are denominations of convenience rather than principle.

Then look at the Reformed tradition. Yes there are denominations CofS, PCUSA, Dutch Reformed Churches and so on. There are also many Merged denominations that have Reformed streams eg Church South India, United Church of Canada. The URC falls between the two as all denominations that made up it had Reformed heritage.

Then however are both the strands within other traditions such as Anglicanism (historically Puritanism but today owned mainly by conservative evangelicals) and there are independent churches who adopt a Reformed theology.

I would pose that the Reformed Tradition is a morphous movement that changes form according to circumstance. The question therefore for the URC is not whether we are called to become a movement but how best we express that movement.

Jengie

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fletcher christian

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Posted by JJ:
quote:

Roman Catholicism and Church of England make claims about being "the Church"

My understanding - which may be wrong - is that the Roman Catholic church uses this phrase of being 'THE church' in an ambiguous way; meaning both the church universal and THE church, as in, we are the only truly valid church. That would be my readings of some of their statements and documents, but that might be my bias in reading it.

I don't think the Church of England, on the other hand, has made any such claim. There is certainly a claim to apostolic succession (of a sort) and claims about the tradition to which it holds being fed and inspired by the early church and many references to 'the church' meaning the church universal, but I don't see that same distinctive claim to being 'THE church' in any documents or liturgy.

The capitals are not me shouting, just being lazy about the italics code.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Mind you, the very phrase "The Church of England" seems to imply something, for those of us in other denominations.

Queen Elizabeth would, I think, have understood it in that way.

[ 28. October 2015, 14:01: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Albertus
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Yes, and as someone brought up in the CofE I would understand it that way too. Now CinW and TBH I regard that as THE Church here in the same way as I regard the CofE as THE Church there.
That doesn't mean, BTW, that I don't think those other churches are churches- far from it. But I suppose I see them as bodies which might come and go (tho' I hope not go, in almost all cases*) whereas the CofE/CinW are in some way the basic continuing presence. I know that members of other churches may not like that, and I'd be hard pushed to unpack it- it;s as much a gut thing as it is a head thing- but that's how I see it.

*I suppose exceptions might be some of the prosperity gospel crowd and there are certain types of conevo- actually, quite a lot of whom are in the CofE- who I'd not be sorry to see the back of. Of course, God might be more sorry than I am about that.

[ 28. October 2015, 14:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Albertus:
quote:

Yes, and as someone brought up in the CofE I would understand it that way too. Now CinW and TBH I regard that as THE Church here in the same way as I regard the CofE as THE Church there.
That doesn't mean, BTW, that I don't think those other churches are churches- far from it. But I suppose I see them as bodies which might come and go (tho' I hope not go, in almost all cases*) whereas the CofE/CinW are in some way the basic continuing presence. I know that members of other churches may not like that, and I'd be hard pushed to unpack it- it;s as much a gut thing as it is a head thing- but that's how I see it.

And would this be a personal notion or something you have garnered from CofE/CinW documents and liturgies?

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:

Mind you, the very phrase "The Church of England" seems to imply something, for those of us in other denominations.

Like The Presbyterian Church of Scotland? If so, is it more to do with being an established church?

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Chorister

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I remember, several years ago, that people joined our then church from the Vineyard Fellowship, for the same reason as cited in the OP. The only difficulty was with what comprised 'spreading the leaven' - it can lead to conflict when they wish to change everything they see in their new church too quickly, adopting a confrontational stance. Rather like when a new vicar arrives, it would be much more effective to take time to get to know the new congregation, and for them to get to know the newcomers, before rushing in with alternative ideas.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, and as someone brought up in the CofE I would understand it that way too. Now CinW and TBH I regard that as THE Church here in the same way as I regard the CofE as THE Church there.
That doesn't mean, BTW, that I don't think those other churches are churches- far from it. But I suppose I see them as bodies which might come and go (tho' I hope not go, in almost all cases*) whereas the CofE/CinW are in some way the basic continuing presence. I know that members of other churches may not like that, and I'd be hard pushed to unpack it- it;s as much a gut thing as it is a head thing- but that's how I see it.

*I suppose exceptions might be some of the prosperity gospel crowd and there are certain types of conevo- actually, quite a lot of whom are in the CofE- who I'd not be sorry to see the back of. Of course, God might be more sorry than I am about that.

I know who I'd rather save out of that end of the CoE (some of them would not ID as Anglican) and the Methodists! Although I'm sure Methodism has its own difficult children.

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Jengie jon

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Yes the CofE took the dominant* Reformed understanding of Church as being the expression of Church as in a set context and time. Calvin only meant city and environs with Geneva. This was actually adopted to allow Ecumenical relationships to exist between Protestant churches where "church" was defined as being in a separate city. So different churches existed in different areas. It took the Scots and the Dutch to make it to a nation-state. Intriguingly Oliver Cromwell seems to have sided with Calvin over Knox on this.

The minority Reformed position stance is much closer to Anabaptist and the community of the elect. Both have existed since the fifteenth century. In Scotland you actually get both!

Jengie


*There is a "dominant" and a "minority" form of belief about the nature of Church within the Reformed tradition.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Albertus:
quote:

Yes, and as someone brought up in the CofE I would understand it that way too. Now CinW and TBH I regard that as THE Church here in the same way as I regard the CofE as THE Church there.
That doesn't mean, BTW, that I don't think those other churches are churches- far from it. But I suppose I see them as bodies which might come and go (tho' I hope not go, in almost all cases*) whereas the CofE/CinW are in some way the basic continuing presence. I know that members of other churches may not like that, and I'd be hard pushed to unpack it- it;s as much a gut thing as it is a head thing- but that's how I see it.

And would this be a personal notion or something you have garnered from CofE/CinW documents and liturgies?
I wouldn't call it a personal notion- more an identification with a certain kind of CofE/CinW culture and experience. I am aware that there are others in these Churches who identify with different elements of their cultures and so may not erach the same position as mine.

[ 28. October 2015, 15:19: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Gamaliel
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Interesting observations ...

I think Jengie has highlighted something very interesting in terms of the Reformed tradition - because in its Big R and small-r forms it does span various churches, denominations and groupings.

The fun starts when they start arguing among themselves as to whether such-and-such a body or such-and-such an individual is sufficiently Reformed or not ... [Biased] [Razz]

The thing with 'semper reformanda' of course, is that you never stop doing it ...

Be all that as it may, I think Jengie's right in observing that Methodism wouldn't be a good place to start if one wanted to reverse the denominational process and turn a denomination back into a movement ...

Although, if I understand her correctly, I'm also at a loss to understand why the URC might be a better place to start ... they strike me as just as denominational as the Methodists.

Meanwhile, for all the kerfuffle about whether the CofE or CinW thinks of itself as THE Church - Big C - in England or Wales - (it depends on the type of Anglican I suspect) I'm more interested - for the purposes of this discussion - in whether there is a definable Anglican ethos that transcends culture, church-state links and so on.

I mean, US Episcopalians I've met - both from the TEC and the breakaway 'continuing' type groups - seem very Anglican to me - even though they operate in a different culture. They don't seem 'English' or 'British' - for all their almost idolatrous attitude (some of them) towards the Monarchy and their pleasing penchant for British real ale (yayy!) ...

But they do seem Anglican in the way that they seem to out-Anglican the CofE in terms of liturgy and a penchant for C S Lewis and so on.

Am I making sense?

If the CofE were disestablished tomorrow, would a distinctively Anglican approach and spirituality continue? Yes, I think it would.

However, I'm not so convinced in terms of Methodism. If the Methodist Church - as a denomination - ceased to exist in the UK would a kind of distinctive 'Methodist' spirituality continue?

I've read comments by Methodist ministers who believe it would ... I'm struggling to visualise how that might work and how that might look if there wasn't such a thing as the Methodist Church of Great Britain in denominational terms.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

If the CofE were disestablished tomorrow, would a distinctively Anglican approach and spirituality continue? Yes, I think it would.


Has done here in Wales, although there are two factors which opertaed for a long time to take into account (i) defensiveness against (and suspicion from) the chapels (ii) I get a sense that the CinW sometimes just didn't accept that it had been disestablished.

quote:
However, I'm not so convinced in terms of Methodism. If the Methodist Church - as a denomination - ceased to exist in the UK would a kind of distinctive 'Methodist' spirituality continue?

I've read comments by Methodist ministers who believe it would ... I'm struggling to visualise how that might work and how that might look if there wasn't such a thing as the Methodist Church of Great Britain in denominational terms.

So might that be better preserved by keeping a Methodist identity within another Church? There have been proposals for a Uniting Church here in Wales consisting of CinW, Presbyterians, URC, Methodists (and a few Baptists)- an episcopal church with the 6 (or fewer if they ever get round to some mergers which they talk of from tiem to time) territorial CinW dioceses and non-territorial dioceses for each of the other 3 main traditions. (Not sure where the Covenanted Baptists would fit in- I imagine they'd go in with the URC or something.)

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Jengie jon

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Not really

Have you ever checked out whether the URC and the Baptists are one or two denominations legally?

DON'T

I think when the merger happened we legally made sure we were separated from remaining Congregationalists. We did not investigate our status with respect to Baptists. The historic stuff is far too complex.

However, I would suggest that the Baptists Union would a good place to start. Indeed, one of the things I would argue we got wrong in 1972 was to making the boundary of URC too tidy. We needed all sorts of weird uncles and aunts and nieces and nephews hanging around the fringes.

In my book within English Nonconformity 1972 was the high water mark of denominational-institutionalism. It will recede over the next fifty years or so. The church is already getting stronger outside the traditional denominational boundaries. A new way of working will arise eventually and we will start building institutions again, but this time it will not be denominations which are really a nineteenth-century phenomena. In that age some will be denominations re-formed to the new modus operandi, some denominations will disappear and some will merge with other bits to create new institutions. There will also be institutional groupings that owe little to the old denominations.

Jengie

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Baptist Trainfan
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I don't disagree with what Jengie has said, not at all. But I would add that the Baptists are far less of a centralised "denomination" than the Methodists or the URC; they are much more a Union of individual churches. This would make it difficult to merge them as a homogeneous whole within a wider body.
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Albertus
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The Baptists who might enter the Church Uniting in Wales are a very small group - the ones who are part of the Covenanted Churches within Cytun (alongside the CinW/PCW/Methodists/URC)- they are AIUI within BUGB.
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Jengie jon

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Which should just about with my above post spell out why I think the Baptists are uniquely placed. A coalition of the willing can of the travel lighter and further more easily than those with more centralised authority. Sometimes they will head in the wrong direction but we are in the situation where standing still is doomed.

Jengie

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The Baptists who might enter the Church Uniting in Wales are a very small group - the ones who are part of the Covenanted Churches within Cytun (alongside the CinW/PCW/Methodists/URC)- they are AIUI within BUGB.

I think that's right. There are other churches which are in the Baptist Union of Wales (and, I think, some which are in both Unions). Relations are friendly but the Unions are legally separate.
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Pomona
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Hmmm Gamaliel - even though I am distinctly High Church, I would tend to see the kind of MOTR church you get in the CoE as the 'most Anglican'. In my experience US Episcopalianism is much higher and much more liberal, and a lot of English Anglicans would feel more comfortable in a US Lutheran church. I have a friend who works for St Thomas the Apostle in LA, Latin Mass a go go - I wouldn't call that very Anglican. YMMV of course.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, I'd agree with that Pomona, what I was doing - for the sake of brevity and at the risk of caricature - was highlighting some of the more 'Anglican' aspects of US Episcopalianism as I've encountered yet -- and yes, on the whole they are 'higher' than most MoTR UK Anglicans ...

Meanwhile, I think Jengie's raised an interesting point about denominationalism being a largely 19th century phenomenon. Are we heading to a post-denominational but still 'connexional' future in some way, shape or form?

The US 'non-denoms' and the UK restorationist 'new churches' each made (and to an extent continue to make) a big thing out of not being 'denominational' - although in practice their own networks and individual congregations often had much more homogeneity and indeed, authoritarian control than is the case across most of the traditional denominations.

I can certainly see how a Reformed - or small r reformed - ethos can span a range of churches and crop up in all sorts of places ... what I'm still not convinced about is whether 'Methodism' or 'Wesleyanism' can - save as a subset within something else and with less clarity about what it actually stands for.

That's not to suggest that the Reformed (or small r reformed) are more homogeneous ... there are various strands under those umbrella terms too.

But I dunno why but I'm struggling to envisage 'Methodism' as an ethos, principle or form of spirituality having an independent and separate existence outwith the denomination of that name - or the few independent Methodist groups which still exist.

As for the Baptists ... churches can be 'baptistic' without being Big B Baptist ... I remember lots of Baptist ministers' tales about people they called 'Big Baptists' ... Baptist Trainfan will undoubtedly recognise the type.

When is a Baptist not a Baptist? [Confused]

I think Chorister has also raised an interesting point about how Christians with a particular ethos or 'take' might go about trying to spread their 'leaven' as it were ...

The situation she describes with former Vineyarders trying to impose their values/praxis on a host church is one that is not uncommon with charismatics in general, I've found. Back in the day, when people were leaving the traditional denominations for the restorationist 'new churches' you'd hear all sorts of sob-stories about how they'd been 'forced out' because of their charismatic stance or how they'd been constrained, not allowed to express themselves etc etc ...

What you didn't hear about so much were the ministers who'd been exhausted trying to keep both sides on board or people who'd found themselves uncomfortable as the enthusiasts tried to foist their charismatic expression onto everyone else - whether they wanted it or not ...

I'm sure both things were equally true.

I'm also sure that what Percy is envisaging isn't some kind of 'Methodist' infiltration of existing denominational structures - but something more fluid than that ...

I dunno what he had in mind ... former Methodists giving workshops on Wesleyan hymns or spirituality or taking a lead in social action, equality issues etc ... which again, I don't think are necessarily a Methodist distinctive - they are found elsewhere.

I s'pose forms of Ignatian and other comtemplative/reflective spiritual practices are spread that way - through retreats, through workshops, conferences etc - and extend way beyond their original context within Roman Catholicism. The same is true with charismatic things ... those were spread in large part initially by conferences and pan-denominational events.

Can we envisage something similar to spread, disseminate Methodist values, say? Or Baptist ones? or Reformed ones?

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Jengie jon

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Let me try and put my finger in the air and tell you what I expect. Firstly I expect numerical decline to continue for at least another twenty years and maybe forty. The result of which is that many of the current big church institutions whether denominations, training colleges or other will implode or merge.

Secondly I expect a growth of high commitment Christian groups. These maybe Independent Churches, neo-monastics, intentional communities, dispersed communities, ginger groups etc. At the same time I expect these groups and others to explore different ways of developing religious communities. Not all of these will succeed, indeed many will fail. These are the test tubes of the new institutions.

At some point, twenty, thirty, maybe forty years time there will be a trigger (goodness knows what) and suddenly these groups focus will change from inward holiness to an evangelistic outreach. Perhaps that is wrong but a sense that what they have got is not just for the keenies but for everyone. It is at that point we will see the new institutions start to appear.

I can make guesses. The Baptists I think will participate in the process, the URC and Methodists will either merge with others or implode. The Anglican will try to adopt what is successful, as indeed will the CofS. Roman Catholicism will wait until the explosion and then react.

Jengie

[ 28. October 2015, 19:24: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Pomona
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Interested to hear those predictions about religious communities/other high commitment groups. I hope and think you're right.

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Gamaliel
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I wish I could share the optimism of 'explosion' - but I think you're right about the emergence and growth of 'high commitment' and 'intentional' communities of one form or other.

My guess would be with the RCC that there'll be a spontaneous growth of similar groups there - with or without official sanction. After all, when you look at the pietist movements of the 17th and 18th centuries there were parallel movements going on both within Protestantism and across the Catholic world ... and not necessarily influencing each other.

I so suspect that things will become more 'gathered' and 'sectarian' - not in the perjorative sense - but in the sense of covenanted communities or 'intentional' communities of one form or other. It is possible to be in a 'sect' in sociological terms without being 'sectarian' in the perjorative and negative sense - just as it's possible to be narrowly sectarian within one of the wider and ostensibly broader historic Churches or denominations ...

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Methodism is probably not the right place to start. They are the most archetypical denomination there is among the mainstream grouping.

For the purposes of this thread, though, this is perhaps what makes Methodism especially interesting among the non-established English Protestant denominations and movements.

It seems that the other groups will more easily be able to split apart, reconfigure themselves, and adapt a new role as leaven, etc., without much disruption to their identity or to their worshipping culture. This is partly because their more independent congregational structure makes such adaptations less disruptive to the whole. Also, their identity in many cases resides in their theological distinctiveness. With effort, commitment to a particular theology can withstand organisational changes.

The two most obvious problems for Methodism, then, are that its structure is rigid and hence less adaptable; and that it didn't come into existence as a result of clear theological disagreements, which means its identity doesn't rely on a distinctive theological issue, but springs out of a more subtle mix other related factors. Having said that, I do think Methodism is theologically interesting. Its basic theological ingredients are evident elsewhere, but not in quite the same proportions, nor blended in quite the same manner.

In the medium term my guess is that the denomination will merge with the CofE, but what will this mean for individual congregations? The chapel closures will continue. The circuit system will collapse, because the most successful congregations won't need it, and the others will be too weak to argue for it effectively.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Interesting observations ...

However, I'm not so convinced in terms of Methodism. If the Methodist Church - as a denomination - ceased to exist in the UK would a kind of distinctive 'Methodist' spirituality continue?

I've read comments by Methodist ministers who believe it would ... I'm struggling to visualise how that might work and how that might look if there wasn't such a thing as the Methodist Church of Great Britain in denominational terms.

Well, the United Church of Canada has done well keeping up the Methodist Franchise in Canada for 90 years. There are still lots of ministers who really love John Wesley's ideas. One of my great-uncles (also a UCCan minister) used to be the curator at Hay Bay Church, the oldest Methodist church in Ontario, established 1792.

And the UCCan certainly did begin as a movement; our "fourth parent" was the Association of Local Union Churches, which had 250 congregations across Canada in 1925, which was particularly popular on the Prairies.

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SvitlanaV2
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I wonder if there will ever be a 'United Church of England', or a 'United Church of the United Kingdom'? (However, the former would be ambiguous and awkward since we already have the CofE, and the latter just sounds rather ugly!)

A 'United Church of Great Britain' might be possible, since the churches of Northern Ireland probably wouldn't join. In all honesty, though, I don't think any likely union that didn't include the CofE would generate much interest in the country at large. In the mainstream media it would come across as a boring administrative matter, if the media covered the story at all.

As as for John Wesley, he's always a popular focus for scholarly attention. In a sense, such scholarship has no need for actual Methodists, though; just a few clergymen/women and other theologians who 'love John Wesley's ideas'.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I remember lots of Baptist ministers' tales about people they called 'Big Baptists' ... Baptist Trainfan will undoubtedly recognise the type.

I think you mean "Big B Baptists" ... and, although I've come across the term, I don't really know what it means!
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think Chorister has also raised an interesting point about how Christians with a particular ethos or 'take' might go about trying to spread their 'leaven' as it were ...

... What you didn't hear about so much were the ministers who'd been exhausted trying to keep both sides on board or people who'd found themselves uncomfortable as the enthusiasts tried to foist their charismatic expression onto everyone else - whether they wanted it or not ...

Not just that, but also very Evangelical people who've found themselves in more liberal churches and then want everyone to jump to their tune straight away - yes, I know that too, and have found them exhausting too even though I have a lot of sympathy for their views.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I so suspect that things will become more 'gathered' and 'sectarian' - not in the perjorative sense - but in the sense of covenanted communities or 'intentional' communities of one form or other. It is possible to be in a 'sect' in sociological terms without being 'sectarian' in the perjorative and negative sense - just as it's possible to be narrowly sectarian within one of the wider and ostensibly broader historic Churches or denominations ...

I think that is already happening as (a) we have lost the "Christendom" model in Britain and Church is increasingly an intentional thing; (b) Christians are more mobile and can choose what church they wish to be part of rather than simply having to walk to the local shack; (c) consumerism, even within the Church, means that we will seek out what we want.

And that's as true in the CofE as elsewhere: how many folk don't go to their local Parish Church because it's not Evangelical enough, or doesn't do enough for the children, or isn't High enough, or doesn't have the "right" music (insert your choice here), isn't committed enough (or doesn't understand how busy I am) ... Of course, people may dress up their choices in high-flown spiritual language, but ultimately most of are saying, "I'm in this church because I like it more than its competitors".

That has huge implications for the denominations as the "local offering" is far more important to most folk nowadays than "maintaining brand loyalty" when they move to a new place.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Mind you, the very phrase "The Church of England" seems to imply something, for those of us in other denominations.

With a more generous ecclesiology it need not imply a bad thing, though. I think of Dean Stanley's view that the "others" were "non-conforming members and ministers" of the National Church. Changes over the last 50 years mean that nowadays that would have to be widened to "occasionally conforming members and non-conforming ministers." Rather than pursue an institutional merger and run the risks of another jilting at the altar, it would be good for the powers that be in the C of E to humbly invite the Methodists to make their unique and much needed contribution more explicitly within the national church, and then allow such local fudges and adjustments as seem needed.

But the "place" of Baptists and Prebyterians within "the national church" is a tougher challenge! I often think that a unified clergy pension scheme would be a good practical start. After all, it is what has held the C of E (in the narrow sense) together.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Before the Government brought in pension reforms c.1990, membership of the Baptist pension scheme was a sine qua non for Accredited Ministers. It was said that you'd get on the list of such ministers irrespective of what you believed, so long as you were prepared to sign up to the pension scheme.
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Gamaliel
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I would take 'Big B Baptist' rather like 'Big E Evangelical' or even 'Big M Methodist' or 'Big A Anglican' perhaps ...

It's the sort of thing that's difficult to define but noticeable when you see it ...

[Big Grin]

Yes, I think the intentionality/consumerism thing has already kicked in ... it's a 'given' -- what I was thinking of was more along of the lines that Jengie appeared to be outlining ie, the emergence of more intentional forms of intentionality - if you like - where the ante is upped from 'I go to this church because I prefer the music here to what's available at the church down the road' - to a more obvious commitment to a particular ethos or spirituality ...

If I've understood Jengie correctly that is.

Currently, that sort of thing is just for the keenies - people who seek out a neo-monastic group, say, or who join one of the 'Third Orders' of religious orders such as the Franciscans say.

I think what Jengie is envisaging, at least for a season or a generation or so, is that these kind of more intentional or 'covenanted' communities will keep the flame burning until such time as it can be re-ignited or passed on elsewhere.

It's a view that has some appeal, but I'm not quite sure how it balances out with less full-on forms of church engagement.

Perhaps the less full-on forms are doomed to wither away as Christendom dissolves?

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