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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: When does a gathering become a 'church'?
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Baptist Trainfan ignoring for a moment the non-BU baptist churches - are you saying that it would be a problem to plant a new congregation in a town with an existing BU church?
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Put it this way: it wouldn't be "illegal" to do this as Baptist churches don't have "parishes". However a Regional Minister might raise their eyebrows if you just went ahead off your own bat. More to the point, I don't think it would be good manners; and it would also be good for fellowship and prayer support to liaise with the existing church, even if you are fishing a rather different pool (e.g. existing church could be very staid, elderly, introverted and the new outreach is among young professionals).
As a general rule I feel that anyone who aims to start a new "work" should do so in consultation and fellowship with the existing churches in that area. We are, after all, one Body of Christ and I despair of new groups who brashy come in and do their own thing as if no-one else counts.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Wise words.
Just on a slight tangent, has anyone ever heard of a church plant going the other way to the example BT gave- that is, appealing to the more elderly/staid etc who are otherwise not catered for? It seems to be a real issue in the town in N Wales where Mrs A's parents live: lots of retired people there, the Methodist Church closed, there is a URC/PCW church that seems to be the natural alternative for people like the parents-in-law, except that the minister appears to be rather a buffoonish charismatic-lite type who is effectively unchurching that substantial part of his congregation who like a hymn-prayer sandwich and a reasonably thoughtful sermon- to the extent that my in-laws, both of whom have attended church (m-in-law before her marriage) or chapel almost every Sunday throughout their lives, now frequently don't go anywhere at all (F-in-law is far too culturally Welsh nonconformist to go to Church, and at his age that's not going to change). Any plant catering for people like them might necessarily be a time-limited project, for the end of one generation only, but it would meet a real pastoral need.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Put it this way: it wouldn't be "illegal" to do this as Baptist churches don't have "parishes". However a Regional Minister might raise their eyebrows if you just went ahead off your own bat. More to the point, I don't think it would be good manners; and it would also be good for fellowship and prayer support to liaise with the existing church, even if you are fishing a rather different pool (e.g. existing church could be very staid, elderly, introverted and the new outreach is among young professionals).
Right - but then this is presumably only going to be an issue in a very small town, or a place where there might end up being two BU churches in extremely close proximity (ie on the same street in a city).
Major towns and cities usually have several BU churches, it is hard to imagine anyone batting an eyelid if one church decided to start a new congregation in a suburb or estate.
quote:
As a general rule I feel that anyone who aims to start a new "work" should do so in consultation and fellowship with the existing churches in that area. We are, after all, one Body of Christ and I despair of new groups who brashy come in and do their own thing as if no-one else counts.
Well I guess this might conceivably be an issue if the Fresh Expression is specifically badged as a "Baptist Union" supported effort. But obviously most towns now also have a range of baptist/evangelical churches of a range of stripes - it is hard to imagine that anyone has consulted the others before they start (some probably started due to some problem with the Baptist Union).
I just don't think the Regional Ministers are really in a position to complain here. I'd be fascinated to hear of a Baptist Union church which did not get off the ground because of a lack of discussion with other local congregations or the regional minister. Each church is an individual entity, the Baptist Union structure and regional minister system is only an advisor to the primacy of the local congregation, as I understand it.
Of course, most Baptist Union churches are centuries old - has any Baptist Union church started from scratch in England in the 21 century? I'd imagine they're closing faster than they are opening, no?
I guess it is possible that interchurch relations inside the Baptist Union have improved, but I know of two BU churches in a town which barely acknowledge the others existence (and probably have not for at least 50 years) - and another where a small struggling congregation was allowed to share a building during repairs (providing they held services at 3pm) with no obvious discussions as to the practicalities of continuing in this way rather than some kind of merger. My experience of BU churches seem to have little or no interaction with other local BU churches, never mind anyone else. Maybe this is not the way it is done elsewhere, I'd be interested to hear if not.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Major towns and cities usually have several BU churches, it is hard to imagine anyone batting an eyelid if one church decided to start a new congregation in a suburb or estate.
Of course not, but you must remember that most Baptist congregations are "gathered" and people may come from quite a variety of locations.
quote:
I guess this might conceivably be an issue if the Fresh Expression is specifically badged as a "Baptist Union" supported effort. But obviously most towns now also have a range of baptist/evangelical churches of a range of stripes - it is hard to imagine that anyone has consulted the others before they start.
Why not? We are all the Body of Christ (and I include the non-Evangelical churches as well). We need to be courteous and recognise each other. The exception I can think of is churches which cater for a specific ethnic group and language.
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I just don't think the Regional Ministers are really in a position to complain here ... the Baptist Union structure and regional minister system is only an advisor to the primacy of the local congregation, as I understand it.
Yes.
quote:
Of course, most Baptist Union churches are centuries old - has any Baptist Union church started from scratch in England in the 21 century?
Well, here's one at least ... I'm sure there are others.
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I guess it is possible that interchurch relations inside the Baptist Union have improved, but I know of two BU churches in a town which barely acknowledge the others existence (and probably have not for at least 50 years).
Sadly true. But that's "the independence of the local church" gone mad.
[ 06. November 2015, 10:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I got a bit confused reading the above. Are we actually talking about the same things here?
[/qb]
I think the tangent went on to other groups that attempt to do the replanting thing - the takeaway for me anyway is that it's worthwhile trying to think about the parallel non-religious institution that the particular group may be unconsciously attempting to imitate, as it leads to thoughts about the validation mechanisms being used and suchlike.
[quote]
The "official" FE congregations seem to be split into different types - with some also following the school hall guitar model, some the messy church model, some completely different models. I think it can be fair to ask to what extent some of these are truly "fresh" as they just seem to be replicating what others are doing.
Well, perhaps rather than comparing it with a startup, the more apt comparison is with a badly run community arts centre ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Just on a slight tangent, has anyone ever heard of a church plant going the other way to the example BT gave- that is, appealing to the more elderly/staid etc who are otherwise not catered for?
I've not heard of it as a church plant. But I do know of one Baptist church in a "south coast town" which deliberately aimed at the "grey" market; and of a very reactionary URC which has become a haven for disaffected folk from elsewhere.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Well, here's one at least ... I'm sure there are others.
I stand corrected. It appears to have started in 2002.
The Stowe in Swindon. Bussage in Gloucs and probably 6 or 7 others around Bristol.
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
A page back, someone said "ekklesia pretty much means gathering, so to ask when a gathering becomes a gathering is tautological"
They were wrong but it was helpful as I have koine Greek.
ek-kaleo is to call out - (not like 'cry', but like 'call up' as in 'call of duty'.
Therefore perhaps a gathering becomes an ekklesia when the gathered recognise and respond to the fact that they are being 'called out' or 'called up' and start to in turn do mission... so actually what we often have in church buildings these days is a lot of people 'gathering' and only a few recognising that they are actually 'called up'.
So Church has perhaps become a gathering!
(Also whilst ecclesia comes from ekkaleo, 'Church' may be more closely from 'oikia kyrie - like Scottish kirk. From household of the Lord)
Sorry for lazy phonetic spellings- but you get the gist.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Whatever a "gathering" sees itelf as, to the outside observor it's an FE of church whatever the group themselves says.
As for baptist involvment, it is both considerable in contemporary terms and significant historically. Our associations (regions) are now missional in outlook and intent with the innate flexibility (owing to our ecclesiology), to explore and develop new forms of church at a fair pace and with little hierarchical approval needed.
The same, sadly, cannot be said of the CofE and the Methodists. The former seem to spend too much time arguing whose parish it's in and the latter find it hard to justify the cost as they don't have much cash.
I don't see the point in broadening the usage of this term in a way that only creates confusion. 'Alternative church' might be a good all-purpose term, but if you're talking specifically about a new independent church plant why not simply refer to it as such?
Moreover, the CEO-led type churches you mention above don't seem to be so much 'Fresh Expressions of Church' as 'Fresh Expressions of Church Leadership'. IME 'FE' refers primarily to creating new ways of being church for specifically evangelistic purposes, which is to say that the experience of ordinary participants is paramount. The administrative and management style might not be immediately relevant to the curious non-Christian passing through the doors; the welcome they receive and the style of worship and spiritual nurturing available to them will be.
The distinction I'm making here may be less interesting to others than it is to me, but it does help to highlight a question that some commentators find important: Is it better for an 'alternative church' to be run and controlled by an established mainstream denomination (i.e. as an FE) or for it to be separate from all official denominational interference? Or something in between?
In theory, mainstream denominations with their liturgies and established theology can possibly prevent wacky doctrines from making headway, as Gamaliel argued a couple of pages ago. The downside is that their age and status gives them a vested interest in maintaining things as they are, even if their own members are growing restless, and the population around them is losing interest. These churches are so caught up with maintaining the burden of their complex structures, buildings and traditions that they're often exhausted when it comes to evangelism. Hence the challenges facing the CofE and the Methodists. (I also think there's plenty of unorthodoxy in these respectable mainstream church circles too. It just doesn't present itself in such a flamboyant, upfront way.)
The Baptists possibly have the best of both worlds, but on the ground they may be busy with their own vision and projects, and can't be expected to do everything or appeal to everyone, certainly not in urban areas. I therefore remain convinced that we in England ought to have a mixed economy, which will include various types of independent small scale Christian groups, as well as established congregations of various types, including the traditional mainstream churches. In our plugged in culture in 2015 it must be hard for any independent group to remain completely isolated anyway. (It may be different in other parts of the world though.)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
As (I think) I said earlier:
the "CEO" type churches are still basically "Modern"; they're not FE but "old church" with new packaging.
FE are Postmodern, often low key and "alternative" in some way. I'm not too concerned if they are part of the "official" FE networks or not.
Would you agree?
[ 07. November 2015, 11:26: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
That's one way of looking at it, and a helpful one, in some respects.
I suppose that because of my church background I just find it helpful to maintain a distinction between denominational grass roots church groups and freelance ones. For example, I imagine a new Methodist FE in a given area would arouse fewer theological and ethical concerns among the local churches - even among the local Baptists! - than the arrival a small, unknown freelance group.
Whether or not one is 'concerned' about freelance groups depends on various factors. In reality, I imagine that most small church groups that deliberately aim to be alternative are founded within larger church movements or denominations. The challenge is that their aims and desires may diverge so much from the parent church that they may end up becoming independent anyway.
(An interesting historical perspective on this issue is given by Peter Bunton's book 'Cell Groups and House churches: What History Teaches Us'. It looks mostly at small groups from the 1500s to the 1700s.)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Fair enough. I think too that some (the best) FE groups are deliberately "missional" - some though are basically havens for folk who have become disgruntled with ordinary church. But perhaps I'm being a bit unkind.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'd agree with all of that, SvitlanaV2.
I also agree that both the CofE and Methodism can and do harbour 'heterodoxy' or 'un-orthodoxy' or whatever we might wish to call it in a less flamboyant and often understated way ...
So, I wasn't suggesting that the presence of traditional liturgies and so on - in and of themselves - were fool-proof safeguards against 'apostasy' or whatever we might call it ...
Rather, the presence/existence of these things can and does provide some kind of reference point and act as a framework and plumb-line.
I'm less sanguine about that if an FE is meeting in a school hall and twanging guitars and singing exclusively feel-good-factor worship songs or farting around eclectically with T-lights and bits of self-help make it up as you go along liturgies drawn from hither and yon,
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wasn't suggesting that the presence of traditional liturgies and so on - in and of themselves - were fool-proof safeguards against 'apostasy' or whatever we might call it ...
Rather, the presence/existence of these things can and does provide some kind of reference point and act as a framework and plumb-line.
I'm less sanguine about that if an FE is meeting in a school hall and twanging guitars and singing exclusively feel-good-factor worship songs or farting around eclectically with T-lights and bits of self-help make it up as you go along liturgies drawn from hither and yon,
I don't understand what 'twanging guitars' and 'feel-good-factor worship songs' have to do with anything. It's just a matter of people worshipping in their preferred way! The 12th century high church place down the road (for example) is freely available to those whose preferences are more traditional and refined.
Similarly, frameworks and plumb-lines will remain so long as civilisation exists. You don't have to be a member of the CofE to have access to their liturgies or their theology. If you live in a free country and have the means you can get hold of whatever you need.
Of course, if you don't live in such a place it may be much harder to maintain an orthodox church, and I suppose some church planters just don't care very much about proper liturgies and theology anyway. But the OP probably wasn't thinking along these lines.
[ 07. November 2015, 19:16: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
And an FE, in my understanding, would be led by Anglicans or Methodists, etc., in any case, so regardless of the twangy guitars the protective denominational framework would be there anyway.
Previously on the Ship people have complained about certain CofE congregations that don't follow the liturgical 'rules' for the denomination. I don't know if these congregations are known to be significantly less orthodox than others, although perhaps they stick out like a sore thumb in cultural terms. I assume their well educated leaders would use other means to teach their members about the basics of the Christian religion; you don't need to repeat an ancient liturgy to do that.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
It's not about teaching the basics; it's about being visibly part of the (bit of the) Church to which you profess to belong and about keeping your oath of canonical obedience.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure you've grasped the point I was making. I don't have an issue with guitars per se, twangy or otherwise -- the issue is the content of the material.
It's not the guitars so much as the material that is said, sung or preached.
The impression I get of FE and other forms of supposedly more contemporary or accessible worship is that they don't tend to employ the breadth and balance of resources that are available to some of the older outfits - even if those older set-ups aren't using them properly themselves they are at least 'there' to be used ...
The point I'm trying to make - badly I suspect - is that with lectionaries, litanies and set-forms you at least cover the 'Christian year' and the drama/narrative of the salvation story.
With some of the 'newer' material, that can't always be taken for granted ... what you can end up with, if you're not careful, is a rather shallow and truncated approach that doesn't cover all the bases as it were. Not that anything covers all possible bases, of course, but with the traditional rhythm and round of the calendar, daily offices and so on you can cover a lot more ground than can be the case in a 'make it up on the spot' approach.
To use an analogy, I've returned today from a week-long poetry Masterclass led by Poet Laureate Carol Ann Duffy and National Poet of Wales, Gillian Clarke. It blew me away.
One of the things Carol Ann said was, 'form is your friend.'
I'm not saying there isn't 'form' in an FE settings - such things develop their own forms ... but the old wine is best ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I'm not hugely into the church year stuff, although I'm glad it's there in the background. In Methodism I think the lectionary is pretty well essential because it offers the only sort of continuity that many pulpits have. But I'm sure it's not the only way to create a preaching programme.
As for canon law, ISTM that laws need to serve the people rather than people serving the law. The purpose for reciting a particular liturgy is more important than the liturgy itself. Some Anglican leaders presumably agree, or else these recalcitrant churches would be forced into line.
In a way, though, these arguments may not really matter. Worship in countries like ours is likely to become less and less dominated by the traditional frameworks that some Christians feel to be highly important.
Perhaps we'll have centres of excellence where individuals can participate in old liturgies and hymns when they want to, but rely on far more informal kinds of religious community for regular use. But the informal religious communities are still mostly in gestation. I think we need more of them to be in place so that when in a few decades the demographic time bomb finally goes off, there are networks of laypeople who have some experience of running groups, of evangelism and of counselling, for example. They'll be there to assist when many of the remaining traditional churchgoers in the smaller congregations realise their churches won't be around any longer....
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
And if I were in one of those networks I'd be jolly glad to have a liturgical framework and a calendar there to structure what I was doing, because I'd have quite enough on my plate already without having to think about all that stuff from scratch, thank you very much!
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I'm sure that would be possible.
Some FEs are sacramental, so I understand, but we don't hear much about them. The shortage of priests might create a problem for some highly sacramental groups of Christians.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
In which case, the churches need to think again about who they ordain and what kinds of priests they ordain. But that's probably another discussion.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm sure that would be possible.
Some FEs are sacramental, so I understand, but we don't hear much about them.
Don't we? Things like Moot in the City of London are well-known.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
[Some] FE groups are deliberately "missional" - some though are basically havens for folk who have become disgruntled with ordinary church. But perhaps I'm being a bit unkind.
Isn't it better to have a haven for these folk than just bid them goodbye and good riddance? If the churches can't hold on to the people they've got, what chance do they have with non-Christians?
But no doubt, it's harder to reach out to people who have no Christian memory to retrieve.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Lots of reasons why people get disillusioned with church - not always the fault of the churches or leaders themselves.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm sure that would be possible.
Some FEs are sacramental, so I understand, but we don't hear much about them.
Don't we? Things like Moot in the City of London are well-known.
Ah, but that's London! Weird and wonderful things are supposed to happen there!
It would be interesting to know if Moot had created offshoots in other parts of the country.
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm sure that would be possible.
Some FEs are sacramental, so I understand, but we don't hear much about them.
Don't we? Things like Moot in the City of London are well-known.
Ah, but that's London! Weird and wonderful things are supposed to happen there!
It would be interesting to know if Moot had created offshoots in other parts of the country.
Not an offshoot of Moot, but there are a few I can think of not in London. Feig in Gloucester for instance (attached to the Cathedral), or Blessed in Plymouth. Whether they would characterise themselves as 'church' or not I don't know, but I think to characterise this sort of gathering as a London thing is inaccurate.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We tried something similar here but it didn't last because key players moved away becsause of their jobs.
Which reflects the fact that many of these things depend on people with particular talents/giftings that may be in relatively short supply.
This also has resonances with Albertus' point above - often improvisation around a fixed framework relieves organisational pressure to an extent.
[ 09. November 2015, 11:15: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
There is/was also safespace in Telford, which was exploring liturgy, but I've not heard anything about it for a few years.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
There's Morph in Ipswich (not often known as a hotspot for innovation). Not sure how "alive" it is. Again I've heard that is has been affected by people moving away from the area.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Morph? Morph?!
I thought Morph was a clay stop-motion animated figure created by the late, great Tony Hart ...
Whatever will they come up with next?
An FE called 'Rhubarb and Custard' or 'Mary, Mungo and Midge'?
One where the pastor is called Mr Geoffrey and the worship is led by Zippy ... with Bungle as the sidesman ...
'Light the whole world up with a ... Rainbow!'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Morph? Morph?!
I thought Morph was a clay stop-motion animated figure created by the late, great Tony Hart ...
Whatever will they come up with next?
An FE called 'Rhubarb and Custard' or 'Mary, Mungo and Midge'?
Well, I didn't think of it nor have I ever attended!
And, if you can have a well-publicised FE based around shared bread-making, then you could have a equally fruit-picking-and-preserving one called "Rhubarb and Custard" (though I dread to think what two Kinds they might use in their Eucharists ...).
(Of course, a "Roobarb and Custard" FE would be centred around lovers of canines and felines. But I jest).
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One where the pastor is called Mr Geoffrey and the worship is led by Zippy ... with Bungle as the sidesman ...
'Light the whole world up with a ... Rainbow!'
You jest - but some attempts an novel 'experience' do end up along the lines of the ridiculous.
At the end of the day, attempting to create a fresh sacramental/spiritual experience/environment is very difficult to do if one attempts to do it sui generis.
It is slightly easier but still hard even if you rely on the combined liturgical resources of a historic church body.
It often doesn't scale out very well - depending as it does on particular gifts/charisms that not everyone has, and so even successful expressions end up very prone to failure if one or two key people relocate. There is a sense of balance about them that is easy to disrupt.
In essence these were the failures of past movements that had similar goals and aims (alternate worship, the emerging church, missional communities, the new monastics etc).
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I know it might be entertaining to give these groups a bit of gentle ribbing, but I can't help thinking that this is only the kind of conversation that has been going on between one generational church and the next for.. well, forever.
I'm not playing that game. It might not be to my taste, it might not (often) be particularly novel or interesting, but they are at least trying to do something. And I think they've got to get a bit of credit for that.
Particularly if they operate under the radar to such an extent that we can't even be sure from the outside that they're still running.
Incidentally, from what I hear via the Church Army, they are very quietly planting various forms of church, directed at people who may not have access to the internet. So unless you know about them, you don't know about them.
I have a lot of respect for that kind of work, personally.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I've not heard about that (obviously), but it does sound good.
By the way, I also think that one can make a lot of fun by lampooning "traditional" church, too.
[ 09. November 2015, 13:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I know it might be entertaining to give these groups a bit of gentle ribbing, but I can't help thinking that this is only the kind of conversation that has been going on between one generational church and the next for.. well, forever.
I'm not playing that game. It might not be to my taste, it might not (often) be particularly novel or interesting, but they are at least trying to do something. And I think they've got to get a bit of credit for that.
I don't often agree with Mr. C, but here I have to say, yes.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
One can (and I would argue should) think of cross-generational worship (acknowledging that there is tremendous diversity in what each gen is looking for in worship styles) in much the same way we look at cross-cultural worship. It's about humility and serving one another, and so takes some generosity and some give-and-take and a whole lotta grace.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, it was that Roobarb and Custard I had in mind ... diddle-di-durrn, diddle-di-durrn, dum-da-dum-da-dum ...
And yes, it's easy to take the rise out of FE style and 'alternate' groups ... as indeed it is out of more traditional forms of church too. They are all fair game.
I do acknowledge mr cheesy's caveat that at least the pioneering types are doing something ...
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't take the piss when occasion demands.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Perhaps I got carried away a bit ... sorry ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
No need to apologise at all, Baptist Trainfan.
You reminded me of the proper spelling of Roobarb as in Roobarb and Custard the cartoon characters created by the excellent Bob Godfrey.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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