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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Poppies - Time to Forget?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, Remembering to declare "never again"
indeed - so it is highly significant that the original poppies were intended to have the words 'never again' in the middle but the British Legion refused to allow this.
All of which makes me think that the whole occasion is a form of indoctrination so that young people have at the back of their minds 'when my time comes to make the ultimate sacrifice.....'
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
I have no difficulty with the red poppy. We need to remember constantly those who died thinking they were fighting for a better world, and then look around at the world we have made, and ask ourselves if their sacrifice was worth it.
'For your tomorrow, they gave their today.'
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I'd like to wear a white poppy, but the trouble is that the donations made to buy them don't seem to go to anything particularly meaningful. The RBL can point to the actual support they've given to human beings. The people who make the white poppies do a lot of grandstanding about peace if I remember correctly, but I don't think they do anything more substantial than that.
I do wish that it was easier to question the morality of a national military action, such as the war in Iraq, without it being seen as an attack on Jim Smith from Colchester, who dragged three children out of a burning building and also saved the lives of his whole regiment that time. I also wish that we didn't have to regard every single person who joins the armed forces as a hero by default. I get it - armed personnel are often brave and sometimes make great sacrifice. But they are humans. They are usually unremarkable humans who went for a particular career choice, sometimes because there were no other options open to them. "Have a great career! Excitment! Personal development! Travel! Bonding with friends! See the world! Oh you might also get blown up but that's just the risk you take." They get sent off to a foreign land by a government that doesn't really give a shit about people dying to achieve its objectives (which might simply be to win an election or get a good trade deal). The government sees these people as completely disposable because all politicians have to do is call them heroes and look sufficiently sombre in November. They don't have to manage foreign affairs in a way that doesn't result in Jim being dead and Bob being traumatised and Gary having to shit in a bag for the rest of his life.
I think that's a crying shame. But it's a complicated scenario and it's difficult to express any kind of nuance when your options are red poppy, white poppy or no poppy. So I wear a red poppy because it's important to some of the people around me, and because the RBL will send someone around to have a cup of tea with Bob, which seems like the least we can do in the circumstances really.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
It's difficult to express any kind of nuance when your options are red poppy, white poppy or no poppy.
You missed one option: both poppies, as worn by myself and some others.
I think that was a great post, thanks.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
]Do they think about what they're reciting?
quote:
... Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
The Canadian Legion has enabled thousands of Canadian veterans to drink themselves to death, which is just one of the reasons I longer buy or wear a poppy. There are better ways to care for and support the victims and survivors of war than running a bar with a weekly meat draw.
I don't know what education is like in your part of Canada (I presume I know where Caprica City is), but In Flanders Fields is part of a large education unit and has been for 50 years both by schools and via media. Everyone knows or faile the unit, it they don't understand the context of Mcrae's poem and that he died. He was writing in a particular context, before WW1 ended. And everyone should be ashamed if they are Canadian and don't know the rest of the story.
The comments about the Legion are profoundly ignorant. Many of the vets, now dead, found a place where others had shared in their horrible experiences. Trauma. No understanding back them of the impacts of what they'd been though. But more to the point, I have seen no statistics about vets having had more alcoholism than those who did not go to war. Please provide these.
[ 09. November 2015, 11:48: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... "In Flanders fields the poppies blow
between the crosses, row on row....
We are the dead
short days ago, we lived..."
(pretty near every Canadian can recite John McCrae's poem. The day is about sorrow.
Do they think about what they're reciting?
quote:
... Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
The Canadian Legion has enabled thousands of Canadian veterans to drink themselves to death, which is just one of the reasons I longer buy or wear a poppy. There are better ways to care for and support the victims and survivors of war than running a bar with a weekly meat draw.
I prefer Wilfred Owen's "Parable of the Old Man and the Young":
http://www.poemtree.com/poems/ParableOfTheOldMan.htm
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.
The thing is, Remembrance is a social commemoration. We are remembering, together. And, so we remember too that our nations, as they were then, were responsible in part for the conditions that lead to war. And, we commit ourselves, as a society, to avoid the mistakes of history and take other paths so that never again will we face war. To make Remembrance just about each of us as individuals remembering those we may know who have fought in war is to cut the heart out of Remembrance. Just as making Communion an individual feast between Christians remembering what Christ has done for them personally is to gut the heart out of the Eucharist.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The thing is, Remembrance is a social commemoration. We are remembering, together.
True. Facebook at the moment looks like a pretty poppy fest ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Were you by any chance listening to my homily yesterday, Alan?
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Wot U sed, anyhoo.
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
When I lived in GB I used to wear both. Since then I've had a fall-out with a "White Poppies for peace" group on Facebook because of their anti-semitic posts and have seen an encroaching of militarism into more areas of civic life, such as soldiers coming on the field at Anfield on the game before Armistice Day and red poppies appearing on football shirts, and what with how Corbyn's being treated, I associate the red poppies now with jingoism.
The problem is that it is [EMAIL]one[/EMAIL] form of national remembrance which is being held to be the normative one. This is always the door to discrimination.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As long as we remember we had a hand in the conditions which caused those as well.
We should never forget the sacrifice others made for us, but also never hide our culpability in the necessity.
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.
Pedantically, the stage was set well before Germany rolled into Poland. But we are responsible for what our government does, even should we occupy no elected or appointed position within it. That the effect an individual has is variable does not exclude responsibility.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Since then I've had a fall-out with a "White Poppies for peace" group on Facebook because of their anti-semitic posts
Just to comment on this - the peace movement has historically had a lot of ties with various undesirable anti-Semitic groups, notably the British People's Party in the early 20 century.
I don't believe in damning people with history, but I do think it is worth reflecting that even the whitest of white peace organisations have an uncomfortable history they need to face up to.
And that it is still possible to hold disgusting views whilst hiding behind the most pure of symbols.
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.
I think I sort of agree with this. Although on one level I have a sense of national shame from (for example) the actions of Britain in Ireland and India, on another level I am also tempted to Pride because my sense of shame proves to me that I am a virtuous and moral person, certainly more virtuous than all those flag-wavers, even though in reality it achieves nothing for anyone.
On the other hand ... we are quite willing to see ourselves as the legitimate heirs to all the good things our national forebears have created. We believe we have a right to the advantages of British citizenship even though we personally have done very little to create those advantages. I don't think we can consistently inherit the triumphs without inheriting the shame.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think I sort of agree with this. Although on one level I have a sense of national shame from (for example) the actions of Britain in Ireland and India, on another level I am also tempted to Pride because my sense of shame proves to me that I am a virtuous and moral person, certainly more virtuous than all those flag-wavers, even though in reality it achieves nothing for anyone.
That's odd. I never think that I'm more virtuous when faced with these stories from our history, just that placed in the same time period, I would probably have done exactly the same. For me the full horror of British empire-building is that exactly the same attitudes still exist today - within the political and social fabric of the country and within my own frail heart.
I guess it must be because I'm naturally pessimistic about myself, only holding things together with spit-and-stickbackplastic and likely would have been on the fast-road to hell (as it were) in very slightly changed circumstances.
quote:
On the other hand ... we are quite willing to see ourselves as the legitimate heirs to all the good things our national forebears have created. We believe we have a right to the advantages of British citizenship even though we personally have done very little to create those advantages. I don't think we can consistently inherit the triumphs without inheriting the shame.
Again, I don't think I am a legitimate heir to all this shit I have collected around me. It used to be said that to be born British was to have won the lottery of life, but I personally feel that my whole life is built upon a edifice hewn by my forefathers from the bedrock they did not own.
I am sorry to mix metaphors, I hope you understand what I mean.
[ 09. November 2015, 13:51: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Ricardus:
My initial point was that "evil conqueror" v. "noble defender" is bollocks. Not defending Hitler in the slightest. Just saying a spark needs fuel to cause a fire.
The secondary point is that a government exists at the will of its populace.
[ 09. November 2015, 13:56: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Since then I've had a fall-out with a "White Poppies for peace" group on Facebook because of their anti-semitic posts
Just to comment on this - the peace movement has historically had a lot of ties with various undesirable anti-Semitic groups, notably the British People's Party in the early 20 century.
Could you elaborate on this a little?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Could you elaborate on this a little?
Sure. The Peace Pledge Union was setup as a pacifist organisation in 1934. For a long time, it published a newspaper/pamphlet thingame called Peace News.
Both organisations still exist, but are no longer directly connected.
The PPU is today one of the main promoters of the white poppy, although it (the white poppy) actually predates the PPU (and, actually, the red poppy) having been used semi-officially by various peace groups in the mid 1920s.
Anyway. The PPU was characterised by some as being appeasers of Hitler, and generally propaganists for Germany, in the period leading up to WW2.
And there does appear to be some evidence of this, with pieces printed in the Peace News written by Lord Tavistock (widely identified today as blatantly anti-Semitic) and Ben Greene being on the board of the PPU whilst also being treasurer of the short-lived far right pro-fascist party called the British People's Party in 1939. Greene was interred during the war as a fascist supporter.
[ 09. November 2015, 14:15: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
I wonder if this is a problem that arises from a protestant hobby horse, not praying the for the dead.
If you look at the history of remembrance, at the end of WW1 the government had to quickly come up with something and a wooden cenotaph was temporarily erected in Whitehall. In time this was replaced with the stone current cenotaph.
The poppy is another secular symbol of remembrance, that has now become polarized, whatever its original intention was.
Arguable all of this would have been un-necessary if Praying for the Dead and Requiem masses were legitimate. You can't hijack the mass for any political end (you can try perhaps, but you will fail) whereas secular remembrances can be co-opted by certain groups and they then become divisive.
Those who insist on not praying the the dead should see the unintended consequences of this theological nicety.
Posts: 108 | Registered: Aug 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
@ Mr. Cheesy: Of course one has to remember how many people, especially from the "upper crust", were initially attracted by Hitler and/or Moseley - see, for instance, Harold Sackville-West. They were quite possibly reacting against Ramsay MacDonald and his Labour Party. Some of them must equally have been involved in the Peace Movement.
I don't think these folk really took notice of the inherent anti-Semitism - and, of course, that echelon of society may well have been passively anti-Semitic anyway (which doesn't excuse them, of course). I wonder therefore if the Peace Movement merely reflected the wider society. It would be interesting to know how much anti-Semitism may have also been present with movements on the Left, whether Labour or Communism - I'm thinking particularly of those fairly well-to-do adherents here.
I also wonder if things changed as Jewish refugees (including my parents) started arriving in Britain and could tell their stories.
[ 09. November 2015, 15:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Bax:
quote:
I wonder if this is a problem that arises from a protestant hobby horse, not praying the for the dead.
It never ceases to amaze me when the same people who object to the observance of All Souls are often the same people who loudly demand trumpets, great silences, prayers, readings, poems, fanfares, flags, poppies, wreaths, processions, anthems and the like for Remembrance Sunday
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Thanks, Mr Cheesy and BT. I've done a little noodling around Wikipedia and it tells a similar story. There seem to be echoes here of the thread we had a little while back in the wake of the Queen's Nazi salute scandal.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
LilBuddha are you old enough to be culpable in respect of either the two World Wars or the conditions that it is argued might have caused them? And even if you were theoretically old enough before 1939 (or in your case the end of 1941) did you occupy a position of power and responsibility at the time? Most of us have enough that we are culpable for and that we should be concerned about, without evading this by agonising about culpabilities for which we cannot possibly be answerable.
Precisely.
There is an excellent exposure of this mentality in C.S. Lewis's article The Dangers of National Repentance, in which he demonstrates that those young people at the time of WWII who were flaunting faux-humility by assuming British responsibility for the war were actually using "we" as a excuse to excoriate the people whom they actually took the greatest moralistic pleasure in condemning, ie past generations, particularly their parents'.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It never ceases to amaze me when the same people who object to the observance of All Souls are often the same people who loudly demand trumpets, great silences, prayers, readings, poems, fanfares, flags, poppies, wreaths, processions, anthems and the like for Remembrance Sunday
It's arguably not the same people at all - this reasoning is about as confused as blaming Catholicism for Santa Muerte
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I never think that I'm more virtuous when faced with these stories from our history, just that placed in the same time period, I would probably have done exactly the same.
Well, my thoughts aren't so much 'I am more virtuous than nineteenth century absentee landlords', as 'I am more virtuous than Those People Over There, because I am aware of historical British crimes and they aren't'. And I'm not saying this is the natural consequence of remembering the sins of our ancestors but it is a temptation.
quote:
Again, I don't think I am a legitimate heir to all this shit I have collected around me. It used to be said that to be born British was to have won the lottery of life, but I personally feel that my whole life is built upon a edifice hewn by my forefathers from the bedrock they did not own.
I agree, but the idea that we are the legitimate heirs is the foundation of immigration and nationality law.
[ 09. November 2015, 21:10: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
In reply to KC.
Didn't something similar happen with the teen revolution of the late 50s and early 60s ? Young people didn't want to be externally grateful to there parents for delivering them from nazi tyranny, this was combined with a general rebellion against establishment thinking.
Anti war and anti British sentiment became popular around that time, Remembrance Day looked like it might even fade into obscurity during the 70s. That was when soccer hooligans clad in Union Jack waistcoats were our main source of national representation.
The Falklands campaign revied national interest in Poppy day. Then, after 9/11, and British involvement in Afganistan the whole thing took off. I think the tension caused by the You must wear a poppy or else has given way to moderation this year thank goodness.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So Alan. That's a Christian imperative is it? Cut the cancer out? Killing a million alone indiscriminately with power from the air in the process? And allying with an even worse teratoma to do so? And as you're there, were H&N radiation therapy for Japanese cancer?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Christ Styles:
quote:
It's arguably not the same people at all - this reasoning is about as confused as blaming Catholicism for Santa Muerte
Why is it not the same people at all?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by :
quote:
It's arguably not the same people at all - this reasoning is about as confused as blaming Catholicism for Santa Muerte
Why is it not the same people at all?
Because the call for ever more florid tributes is a largely secular demand.
[ 09. November 2015, 22:47: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So Alan. That's a Christian imperative is it? Cut the cancer out? Killing a million alone indiscriminately with power from the air in the process? And allying with an even worse teratoma to do so? And as you're there, were H&N radiation therapy for Japanese cancer?
There are, of course, no easy answers to those questions.
War is, of course, evil and something to be avoided. Is it something to be avoided at all costs? There were several legacies of the 1914-18 war, most pertinant to these questions are that the conditions imposed on Germany at Versailles created conditions in which extremist parties appealing to German nationalistic pride could flourish, allowing the cancer-like growth of a small organisation devoted to the ramblings of Austrian corporal into the Nazi regime of the late 1930s. Another legacy of 1914-18 was a deep reluctance to engage in another war, especially one in Europe, and "peace at any cost" resulted in several missed opportunities to stop the growth of that cancer early on. Even in 1939 after the declaration of war, French tanks started to advance in to Germany but were pulled back because of a desire to avoid escalation, in the expectation that the Nazi government didn't want another all out war in Europe any more than the French and British did and the threat of that would bring them to the negotiating table.
But, history is the past. We live in the present, and the most important thing about history is that we need to learn from it. What can we learn from the end of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th? The biggest lesson is that wars don't happen in a vacuum, that great evils grow in particular conditions that other nations have the influence to change through economic and political measures before the only way to excise those evils is armed conflict. The lessons are that the costs of war are avoidable if we want to.
1914-18 shows us the dangers of Cold War, of militarism as a "show of force", the dangers of deterrance as a policy, of fighting proxy wars to gain ground against an opponent. It's a lesson we failed to learn, how many of the wars of the second half of the 20th century and the early years of the 21st have been the result of Cold War politics? Korea and Vietnam, various wars in Africa, South and Central America, a stand-off show of force over Cuba almost lead us to nuclear exchange. The US supported resistance to Soviet occupation of Afghanistan created the Taliban, harboured Al-Qaeda and eventually lead to the war we're still engaged in there.
1939-45 (at least in the European theatre) showed us how economic oppression and injustice allows the growth of extremist movements. Yet, have we created fair trade systems that allow wealth to be more evenly distributed? Have we acted to enact justice and equality within our own nations, and sought to act justly and fairly with others? Have our foreign policies starved extemists of the injustice and oppression that they feed on?
When we stand in silence to Remember, we must not forget the lessons history teaches. We must Remember not only those who fought, those who died and those who returned forever scarred, we must Remember that those deaths, on all sides, military and civilian, should have been unnecessary if not for the policies of our own nations in relation to economic justice and militarism. And, in Remembering we must commit ourselves once more to the struggle for justice, for equality, for righteousness that we no longer permit our governments to develop massive military forces to deter aggression, that we no longer pursue foreign policy through proxy wars, that we no longer permit injustice in our own lands, that we no longer allow corporate interests to oppress the poor and deny freedom to peoples around the world. We must declare "never again", and actively pursue policies that are more likely to lead to a world in which disputes are settled before people pick up guns.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is rather different in Canada. Remembrance Day is always on the day itself: 11 Nov. It is secular with multi-faith representation; various Christian clergy, Jewish, Muslim, First Nations. A collection of choirs. There is a pause for 2 minutes at 11 a.m., which includes pretty near everywhere, including if you're in a store. This is a civic and provincial holiday in most provinces (not all). National and local commemorations. Schools usually hold one the day before. It approximates a civic religious ceremony in much of Canada.
I think it is very different on the Canadian prairies than what I understand of the UK and USA. If any of you ever travel here, look for the Vimy Memorial in all the small towns. On it you will see listed the names of boys/men who died in WW1. It changed everything on the prairies. Some towns had the British descended male population decimated, and we became a Ukrainian boy-Brit girl population (Ukrainian means Ukrainian, Polish, Romanian, etc)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I admit that I thought the claim that it's a civic holiday was incorrect and looked it up: turns out it is a stat holiday in six provinces as well as the territories, but the two most populous (and the only ones I have lived in) are not among them.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
When we stand in silence to Remember, we must not forget the lessons history teaches. We must Remember not only those who fought, those who died and those who returned forever scarred, we must Remember that those deaths, on all sides, military and civilian, should have been unnecessary if not for the policies of our own nations in relation to economic justice and militarism. And, in Remembering we must commit ourselves once more to the struggle for justice, for equality, for righteousness that we no longer permit our governments to develop massive military forces to deter aggression, that we no longer pursue foreign policy through proxy wars, that we no longer permit injustice in our own lands, that we no longer allow corporate interests to oppress the poor and deny freedom to peoples around the world. We must declare "never again", and actively pursue policies that are more likely to lead to a world in which disputes are settled before people pick up guns.
The problem is that we don't learn history in a vacuum, it is mediated by the conditions within which we learn. So it is entirely possible to look at the same history and come to completely different conclusions based on little more than social context.
This then is the problem with "Remembering", which you have unilaterally determined needs to be capitalised.
For one thing, not everything is predictable other than in hindsight. The lessons from history are not simple to apply to the present.
For another, we do not seem to do the things we know lead to peace and we continue to do the things we know continually lead to conflict.
For another, the simple history of war is that the strongest/cleverest/most resolute win. Which is once again the great lie of the Myth of Redemptive Violence.
I'd wager very few are engaging their brains to these questions during "Remebrancetide". But even those who do are not able to think beyond the context in which they live. Hence this whole meme is largely useless.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think it is very different on the Canadian prairies than what I understand of the UK and USA. If any of you ever travel here, look for the Vimy Memorial in all the small towns. On it you will see listed the names of boys/men who died in WW1. It changed everything on the prairies. Some towns had the British descended male population decimated, and we became a Ukrainian boy-Brit girl population (Ukrainian means Ukrainian, Polish, Romanian, etc)
That's an interesting point with regard to demographics, but "decimation" seems like an appropriate word to use in the UK about WW1 too. Many more soldiers died in WW1 (but more civilians in WW2), as is seen on war memorials in every village in the country.
Given the size of the population at the time, the effects of WW1 must still have been felt into the 1930s, and there must have been similar demographic changes with influxes of refugees and others during that period.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I think the effects must have been vast in Britain (and elsewhere). In England there are supposedly 16,000 villages (not counting towns and cities); of these only about 50 lost no-one in the Great War and are known as "Thankful Villages". The loss in some places must have been huge, especially when you remember that army units often grouped together places from a single area. This means that village "chums" would have died together in a single day.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
That's right, I've just been reading about the Accrington Pals - according to wikipedia, around 700 local men joined up to form a battalion. They were put at the front on the first day of the battle of the Somme, and there were 585 casualties, 235 deaths. Some say this happened in the first half hour of the battle.
I've no idea about the size of Accrington at the time, but that must have been a massive loss.
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arse
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Chris Styles:
quote:
Because the call for ever more florid tributes is a largely secular demand.
That wouldn't be my experience. I was speaking in terms of churches and services and my experience there would tally exactly with what I stated.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Given the size of the population at the time, the effects of WW1 must still have been felt into the 1930s, and there must have been similar demographic changes with influxes of refugees and others during that period.
Many of the young men who signed up in 1939 would have watched their own fathers march off to war in 1914-18, with too many of them never coming back. Many of the political leadership would have had first hand experience of the slaughter of the previous war. It's why appeasement was so appealing, why Chamberlain was a hero coming back with his piece of paper. No one wanted to go through that all over again.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Chris Styles:
quote:
Because the call for ever more florid tributes is a largely secular demand.
That wouldn't be my experience. I was speaking in terms of churches and services and my experience there would tally exactly with what I stated.
Is that based on Ireland (either part) or the UK mainland? IME for mainland Protestants / Anglicans / Evangelicals, whatever their view of Remembrance Day, either All Souls isn't on the radar or else they mark it as a service of comfort for the bereaved.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Yes, it might be something specific to Ireland. All Souls as an observance is hotly resisted here with lots of 'Protestant' statements about not praying for the dead in a 'we don't do that' kind of reasoning (if you can call that reasoning). I just find it very odd that the same people are more often than not the very same ones who will have all manner of curious ceremonies for the dead in church come Remembrance Sunday. They sometimes argue that 'remembrance' is not praying for, but I think I can remember on my sofa on my own in front of the TV and my nagging connection in faith to the Eucharist makes my understanding of aramnesis in the context of a church service sit quite firmly in the realm of prayer.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
That wouldn't be my experience. I was speaking in terms of churches and services and my experience there would tally exactly with what I stated.
Except that it's also a national trend in mainland Britain, and in that case it appears to down to a certain mawkish sentimentality - I doubt if the nation as a whole is influenced by a small minority of sectarians in one particular part of the UK.
Feel free to critique your local churches, but the OP on that topic seemed to be tarring protestants with the same brush, which seems to be an over-reach.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
As a child, living in South Central Idaho, I remember getting poppies when we contributed to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, but I do not remember if it was for Veteran's day (I think it was) or Memorial Day, since that tends to be the day when we honor those who died in service to their country.
It seems this veteran's day the push is to encourage people in the US to have a green light on as a way of thanking local veterans for their service. It is being sponsored by Walmart which is selling 25 watt green bulbs for 96 cents. When our local store put the bulbs out I was the first to buy one. They did not seem to be selling for the past week. However, yesterday I noticed quite a few had been purchased.
I am currently working part time at Walmart. Yesterday I was a greeter. I made it a point to thank those who had veteran caps for their service. Several of the vets really appreciated this.
About mid shift a 90 year old man wobbled into the store. He was very unsteady on his feet. He had a WWII Veteran's cap on. I went up to him and first offered to get him an electric cart so he could get around. He declined saying he had to go to the bathroom. I offered him my arm, which he took, and led him to the bathroom. As we walked to the bathroom, I asked him which theatre he served in. He said the Philippines. I mentioned my Dad also served in the Philippines. Once we got to the bathroom he thanked me for helping him.
I went back to my post but I kept an eye out for the old man. In a short period of time I saw him coming out of the bathroom so I went up to him again. This time I did not offer my arm, but slowly walked with him as he left the store to sit in his truck while he waited for his son to complete his shopping. As we walked he talked about his service in the Philippines. He was a rifleman, actually a scout which means he was beyond enemy lines many times.
When we got to the exit door of the store, he took my arm again. It was very windy and rainy. I did not have a coat on, but I walked him to his truck and made sure he got in the truck safely, thanking him again for his service.
As I returned to the store the son came out and thanked me for helping his dad.
Now, that is the way to remember the veterans.
Tomorrow I will be people greeter again. I plan on wearing my veteran's cap to show solidarity with my brothers and sisters who have served and are serving. I do not want to see another war again; but this side of eternity there will always be wars and rumors of wars. I know how being in a war can change a person forever. I will continue to pray for peace and will vote for those who want to promote peace, but I know we live in nasty times and understand we have to be prepared for whatever may happen.
[ 10. November 2015, 16:36: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The banner in our church has twice as many names for WW1 dead than WW2, which approximates the proportion nationally. I had a French branch of my family entirely slaughtered in WW1. Wrong town, angry reprisal seeking Germans. I had German branch of my family with 4 of 5 families of my cousins killed completely by American carpet bombing. The continental causalities were higher for both wars I should think. I am thankful than of my Canadian family no-one died in WW2, though wounded. WW1 is 2 men.
Remembrance Day is definitely not a veterans day, except as we consider the perils and death together. This loss of focus, from posts above, presents problems, and I cannot help to feel your pain and upset with it. On Remembrance Day we remember that war is great, great evil, even as a war veteran priest discussed at church on Sunday during an extra Remembrance Day children's time. No glory.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I found myself thinking about the long shadow of WWI which stretched far further than the 1930's.
At school, we laughed (appallingly) about all the single women who taught us. (They were rather weird. Some of them we didn't notice.) My father's cousins never married, and they lived single into the 70s.
A friend's mother has never been very comfortable with her life. Her father died when she was ten, a long term result of being gassed in the trenches. Her husband had to cope with the aftermath of being in Bomber Command, seeing all his fellows failing to return, and she could not support him. He left her. She herself had had to work in London through the Blitz. As WWII was due to WWI, that's part of the shadow. My friend has to cope with the blight on his life of being compelled to be in the place of his father.
My cousins are of the age that would have expected to find partners in the generation that would have been born in WWII, except they weren't. Another tranche of the single.
I remember one of the school parents whose husband left her. He had been brought up during the war, with his father away. He had become like one of the Chinese little emperors, expecting her to treat him as his mother had treated him during those years, and he had not had the usual model of family life.
It isn't over yet. And it hasn't been just the young men my grandfather told me about, who I used to visualise marching down the Road of Remembrance at Folkestone to the specially built pier to embark towards the sound of the guns they could already hear, who would never return. Or the men who walked about the St Dunstan's Home near Brighton, blinded during their service. Or the other wounded.
Those left behind have need of remembrance, too.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
That is very moving, thank you.
My own story is somewhat different: my parents fled Nazism and came to Britain in 1938, my father served within the Pioneer Corps of the British Army.
But his family took part in the Great Wart on the German side, at the Russian Front. The house he lived in as a child wasn't far away from the front line at the beginning of the War.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Thank you for your response.
Dad was in the Pioneer Corps at first, as a conscientious objector. Mostly, as far as I can make out, clearing up bomb damage, getting involved in training engineers, and, when they found out he was training to be an accountant, organising pay and railway warrants.
We never ate Hartleys products, because when they were working on clearing up their factory, the MD would not let them use the canteen, because he objected to conscientious objectors.
When he realised that his family in Brighton was in the front line, and the war was different from the one he had objected to, Dad transferred to the Artillery, but never had to do very much. I still have an army issue protractor for calculating map details.
He was being readied to go to the East when the bombs fell on Japan.
[ 10. November 2015, 18:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well said, graciously said, Alan. And Gramps49 - beautiful. And leo (and I don't say that often!). And Penny S. And all.
I'll keep my powder dry for now Alan. I could counter, but it would be too ... ruthless. Later.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is this just a sign that the whole narrative of our country is based on the Myth of Redemptive Violence?
I thought that was Christianity?
Christianity busts the myth, exposes it, cancels it.
Now there's a thread I've been thinking about kicking off for a while...
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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