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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Forgiveness
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Well I have no disagreement about your post,(... )Refusal of a person to grant forgiveness for crimes committed to others, is nothing similar to feeling solidarity in guilt for crimes done by a group.
But it is: it is about collective repentance, that repentance which the OT prophets demand and of which we have a prime example in the Book of Jonah.
"Feeling solidarity" has nothing to do with whether an individual can legitimately, symbolically seek forgiveness on behalf of a group.
And what's happening in Jonah is the very opposite of one individual doing so: everyone, from king to beast (!) repents.
[edited for top-of-page clarity]
[ 23. November 2015, 06:47: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In an unrelated development, we've just had a course purporting to train people in counselling touted in our church.
Brief examination suggests that the teacher is someone who, in the course of a counselling process, is very likely to delve into their Bible and proclaim that God's offer for the counselee (which "evil modern psychology" has failed to come up with) is freedom/deliverance/healing, provided that the counselee unilaterally forgives (and of course if they don't, well...)
To my mind this is a) bullshit b) ripe ground for spiritual abuse and the emergence of gurus, and I want nothing to do with it.
This I can totally agree with. Plus it offers no hope whatsoever with the difficult part of the whole mess, which is where the victim says "Yes, but HOW do I forgive X?"
At which point most of the idiots of this brand just go on repeating that you HAVE to, without any practical advice whatsoever on how to actually do it.
Grrrrrrrrr.
Reminds me of the "spiritual advice", better called "spiritual abuse", so often dealt out in confession by confessors without a modicum of common sense: "you must forgive yourself", "God will never send more than you can bear", "God does not want you to hurt" etc.
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2012
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In my own story I call it "cultivating an attitude of being disposed to forgive readily and immediately should the opportunity arise". Or "letting go", a phrase which does not cheapen the process to my mind.
Getting a little closer to the Scriptures, I might take Stephen's "Lord, do not hold this sin against them" which, while it does not in my book constitute unilateral forgiveness, is a conscious decision not to wish suffering on perpetrators (which can be quite hard work).
Sound like a good definition of forgiveness to me. Matt 18 Jesus compares forgiveness to cancelling debt. "..don't hold this sin against them" is just that.
Interesting that you're struggling to find anything in the Scriptures to support your definition of "letting go." All you've said about confrontation, repentance and forgivrness works fine in a church context. Doesn't help Lamb Chopped or others in her position where the perp doesn't give a damn about the impact of the trauma they've caused. I come back to to what I said up-thread. If you have to wait for repentance before you can forgive, the perp's got you trapped.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Interesting that you're struggling to find anything in the Scriptures to support your definition of "letting go."
I don't think the Scriptures tell the whole story on forgiveness, especially given the range of semantic meaning ascribed to the term we've seen here.
What I object to is people championing unilateral forgiveness as though it was obvious from the Bible, whereas to my mind it quite patently isn't.
In my experience such people (not infrequently on the back of some cathartic experience of their own) often go on to order others to unilaterally forgive. For someone impressionable enough to attempt to comply, this may result in an initial sense of release but, I would contend, doesn't deal with the underlying issues at all - which take time and help - and worse still, buries them under a false impression of having dealt with them.
Should any further suffering and pain appear in the victim, the "forgiveness-enjoiners" deal neatly with this by ascribing it to the victim's refusal to forgive, or inadequate forgiveness so far, and so on.
This is spiritual abuse.
quote:
If you have to wait for repentance before you can forgive, the perp's got you trapped.
To my mind you have to get free of the "trap" before you are able to fully forgive, should the opportunity arise. This is part of the "letting go" process and I think the "unilateral forgiveness" doctrine ignores it at its peril. In the Bible, I would point to the example of Joseph.
quote:
Matt 18 Jesus compares forgiveness to cancelling debt. "..don't hold this sin against them" is just that.
To avoid any Trinitarian confusion, let's use the example of Stephen.
Stephen asking God not to hold the sin committed by his executioners against them (in your terms, asking God to cancelling their debt to him) is not the same as Stephen cancelling the debt of wrong done against him.
The executioners had a debt of sin due to God, and a debt of wrong done against Stephen. They don't get a chance to ask forgiveness of Stephen for the wrong done against him, but they do get a chance to ask for forgiveness of their sin before God. Stephen certainly embodies great-heartedness in his martyrdom, but what he doesn't do is unilaterally forgive his killers.
Simply put, if I ask my bank to cancel my enemy's overdraft, that doesn't mean he doesn't still owe me twenty quid.
[ 23. November 2015, 09:29: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Some people never think they need forgiveness as they don't think they have done anything wrong.
It's possible - although not easy - to forgive them, and never go near them again. They certainly don't need to know they are forgiven - this simply reinforces their skewed idea of themselves and their entitlement. I would say this is the sensible course with sociopaths and psychopaths.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Interesting that you're struggling to find anything in the Scriptures to support your definition of "letting go."
You haven't done such a stellar job of that yourself, you know.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What I object to is people championing unilateral forgiveness as though it was obvious from the Bible, whereas to my mind it quite patently isn't.
In my experience such people (not infrequently on the back of some cathartic experience of their own) often go on to order others to unilaterally forgive. For someone impressionable enough to attempt to comply, this may result in an initial sense of release but, I would contend, doesn't deal with the underlying issues at all - which take time and help - and worse still, buries them under a false impression of having dealt with them.
Should any further suffering and pain appear in the victim, the "forgiveness-enjoiners" deal neatly with this by ascribing it to the victim's refusal to forgive, or inadequate forgiveness so far, and so on.
This is spiritual abuse.
But as far as I can tell, nobody on this thread has been arguing that position, and the people (like me) who've responded to that have condemned it just as you do. Why then do you keep hammering on it as if someone were opposing you?
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Stephen asking God not to hold the sin committed by his executioners against them (in your terms, asking God to cancelling their debt to him) is not the same as Stephen cancelling the debt of wrong done against him.
The executioners had a debt of sin due to God, and a debt of wrong done against Stephen. They don't get a chance to ask forgiveness of Stephen for the wrong done against him, but they do get a chance to ask for forgiveness of their sin before God. Stephen certainly embodies great-heartedness in his martyrdom, but what he doesn't do is unilaterally forgive his killers.
Simply put, if I ask my bank to cancel my enemy's overdraft, that doesn't mean he doesn't still owe me twenty quid.
This is logically true. And yet...
Seriously, does it make any sense emotionally or theologically to say, "God, forgive this person and free him of whatever punishment he has incurred before you for stealing my car," while at the same time holding the mental reservation "But I reserve the right to be pissed at you personally for what you did to me personally here on earth, and I intend to follow it up using every earthly means available to me, until you explicitly say you repent"?
I rather think God would put that in the same category as the unforgiving servant--your actions contradict your prayer and render it of no account.
It also leaves you emotionally entangled with the perp--which is why when I asked the Lord to drop his own charges, I at the same time quit my claim against X for the large sum of money he owed me. Not that I would necessarily refuse freely offered repayal (though I might), but I will neither demand it nor ever bring it up in his disfavor here or in heaven. The debt no longer exists unless he and he alone chooses to reinstate it.
Really, how else could I face God honestly and not have egg all over my face? "I want you to forgive his ass and keep him from whatever extra bit of hellfire this might entail, and oh, by the way, I'm hanging on to my personal claim for that loan I made him?" or in Stephen's case, "Forgive him, O Lord, on your account--but I'm hanging on to my personal beef with them until they repent--oh wait, I'm about to die, so they'll be on my hook forever, even if not yours!"
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But as far as I can tell, nobody on this thread has been arguing that position
Ramarius, OP: quote:
whilst every religion values forgiveness, only Christianity requires it...Forgiveness is a one-sided emotional transaction...
Martin60: quote:
Father forgive, seems pretty unilateral.
Lincoln Imp: quote:
forgiveness is one-sided and requires nothing of the perpetrator
Ramarius: quote:
Mark 11:25-26 sounds pretty unilateral
Truman White: quote:
I'd never heard anyone from a Christian perspective reckon forgiveness is conditional on repentance.
Ship's thieving rodent: quote:
The prodigal father forgave his son before he knew he had repented.
If someone has a cathartic and enduring experience of being released from the thrall of an aggression of any kind, that's great.
If they choose to call that "forgiveness" and interpret the Bible as providing a rationale for that for their own experience, well then who am I to judge.
However, there is an enduring problem which is that none of this addresses the benefits of forgiveness for the perpetrator, which to my mind is by far the dominant theme from a Biblical (as opposed to a contemporary therapeutic) perspective and crucially so in terms of understanding how God forgives us.
Worse still, if they set up "unilateral forgiveness" as the normative Biblical pattern and they or others adopt this as a preaching and/or Christian counselling model, then they are in danger of perpetrating spiritual abuse by making unilateral forgiveness the panacea and blaming the counsellee if it doesn't work.
If you don't have anybody teaching that kind of thing round your way, so much the better, but I could show you plenty round here.
[ 23. November 2015, 13:05: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously, does it make any sense emotionally or theologically to say, "God, forgive this person and free him of whatever punishment he has incurred before you for stealing my car," while at the same time holding the mental reservation "But I reserve the right to be pissed at you personally for what you did to me personally here on earth, and I intend to follow it up using every earthly means available to me, until you explicitly say you repent"?
No. But does make sense (at least to me) to start praying that they be forgiven from the get-go, but take some time emotionally to get to the place where you sincerely can yourself.
Let me adjust my example so that instead of owing you £20, the enemy in my example broke your nose. Your initial reaction is little more than pain. You have to come to terms with how long it's going to take to get better, how it affects your social life, whether you need time off work and will suffer financially as a result, and so on.
(ETA I would be highly suspicious of any "I forgive you for breaking my nose" talk at this point)
If you are a good little Christian, I can imagine and indeed expect that you start praying for God to forgive that person their unprovoked attack on you (and if perchance there were extenuating circumstances, e.g. you insulting them day in day out, I would expect your conscience to convict you in due time), but not that you feel ready to sit down and resolve the matter with them, still less forgive them, especially if they appear entirely unconcerned by what happened.
Does that make sense?
[ 23. November 2015, 13:18: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
We've given the unilateral/conditional issue a good airing. Mind if we move on to some other aspects of forgiveness?
What does unforgiveness look like? How do we recognise it? What impact does it have on the person who is holding onto unforgiveness?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius, emphasis mine:
What impact does it have on the person who is holding onto unforgiveness?
That kind of vocabulary gives me the heebie-jeebies.
The immediate connotation for me (although I recognise this may not be the case for you) is someone presuming themselves to be in some kind of position to pronounce that someone else is "holding onto unforgiveness" and that this is in some way connected to that person's woes. I refer you to my comments on spiritual abuse above.
On an individual level, if one accepts that "letting go" is a valid, internal process prior to any forgiveness that may occur, being unable to find it within oneself to as yet forgive an offender is not a reason to further compound the situation with feelings of guilt. It's an entirely normal response to being hurt.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm with Eutychus here. We can't fill in what 'unforgivingness' means for someone else.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm with Eutychus here. We can't fill in what 'unforgivingness' means for someone else.
Really? I'd have thought that, at the very least, we could agree that unforgiveness is refusing to cancel the moral debt of someone who asks for it. Given Jesus's dire warning in Matthew 18:35 to the person who "doesn't forgive his brother from his heart" we need to be very clear as to how unforgiveness is expressed.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Given Jesus's dire warning in Matthew 18:35 to the person who "doesn't forgive his brother from his heart" we need to be very clear as to how unforgiveness is expressed.
Who is "we", and for whose benefit do "we" need to be clear? I don't see much need except between you and the Lord.
Besides, "forgiving from the heart" is an action, whereas unforgiveness (whatever that is, can you find the word in the Bible?) is an attitude.
[ 23. November 2015, 17:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
What does unforgiveness look like? How do we recognise it? What impact does it have on the person who is holding onto unforgiveness?
Here's an example, from a woman who discovered her husband had been molesting one of her very young female relatives for a number of years.
quote:
Also, bizarrely, my decision to divorce was viewed by many as me breaking my marriage vows. The reality is that I needed to get divorced in order to protect my children and myself from my husband’s deceptions and frightening compulsions. My husband’s actions had shattered our marriage covenant long before the divorce papers were filed.
Through this whole process, I learned that much is required of those victimized, while little is asked of sex offenders. When my husband began to spin his story, it was received with affirmations of how courageous he was. He was even placed on the worship team within a few months of his confessions.
In contrast, I was expected to never be angry, bitter, or wrestle with forgiveness. I needed to heal quickly and quietly. And, of course, I couldn’t ever question his “recovery.” His was a wondrous redemption story, and to question his trustworthiness was to question God’s work in his life.
One of the problems with the emphasis on forgiveness is the way it tries to artificially speed everything along past the messy, complicated, and often time-consuming process of justice for the victims (i.e. making them whole, or at least as close to whole as possible).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Really? I'd have thought that, at the very least, we could agree that unforgiveness is refusing to cancel the moral debt of someone who asks for it. Given Jesus's dire warning in Matthew 18:35 to the person who "doesn't forgive his brother from his heart" we need to be very clear as to how unforgiveness is expressed.
Surely we what we need in that case is to know how unforgiveness is expressed for ourselves, not for others.
And in the example you've given here you are no longer positing forgiveness as a unilateral transaction.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Ramarius: Really? I'd have thought that, at the very least, we could agree that unforgiveness is refusing to cancel the moral debt of someone who asks for it. Given Jesus's dire warning in Matthew 18:35 to the person who "doesn't forgive his brother from his heart" we need to be very clear as to how unforgiveness is expressed.
Yes, really and absolutely. We're not Jesus. If Jesus can see inside someone's heart and say something about what unforgiveness means to them, and perhaps even judge that, that doesn't mean that we can. Or should.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Really? I'd have thought that, at the very least, we could agree that unforgiveness is refusing to cancel the moral debt of someone who asks for it. Given Jesus's dire warning in Matthew 18:35 to the person who "doesn't forgive his brother from his heart" we need to be very clear as to how unforgiveness is expressed.
Matthew 18 abuse needs to stop.
quote:
The problem here is not with the passage itself, but with how it is used and abused. Christians who have treated others badly — who have, in fact, sinned against their brothers and sisters — treat this text like it’s their Miranda rights. They appeal to a legalistic application of this passage to distract from the wrong they have done. And thus Matthew 18 has become a refuge for scoundrels.
That’s Jesus speaking there in Matthew 18:15-17 — the same Jesus who also said things like this, from Matthew 5:39: “If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also.” Imagine you’re greeting the pastor after the service on Sunday. You reach out to shake his hand and he wallops you on the right cheek. And then he does it again, and again, and again. And as he’s standing there, hitting you in the face, he piously reminds you that as a good Christian you’re required to “follow the Matthew 5:39 process” and turn the other cheek.
That’s exactly how Matthew 18:15-17 is usually invoked. That is the primary function of “the Matthew 18 process.” It has been twisted into a device for putting the onus on the victim — and for preventing any discussion of getting this person to stop hitting you in the face.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Given Jesus's dire warning in Matthew 18:35 to the person who "doesn't forgive his brother from his heart" we need to be very clear as to how unforgiveness is expressed.
Who is "we", and for whose benefit do "we" need to be clear? I don't see much need except between you and the Lord.
Besides, "forgiving from the heart" is an action, whereas unforgiveness (whatever that is, can you find the word in the Bible?) is an attitude.
I take "not forgive" and "unforgiving" as practically synonymous. So that's my working definition.
The "we" I refer to here is both "me personally" and "other people." I need to know what not forgiving someone else looks like so I can avoid it, and need to be able to recognise it in other people to help them through the process of forgiveness.
I'll come back to that later - interested for now in how others see this aspect.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
As I see it, there are three distinctions: forgiving, not-there-yet, and holding a grudge. Not-there-yet is the usually long struggling intermediate period between "WTF did you do, seriously?" and "I forgive you." Holding a grudge is a deliberate refusal of that process, a wrong turn off of the road.
I don't see anything in Scripture that says the person who is struggling at this moment is in spiritual danger. That person is just going through a normal human spiritual and emotional process, which takes different lengths of time for everyone.
Which is, by the way, my argument against the "instant forgiveness" types. I think real instant forgiveness is so rare as to constitute a near-miracle, unless the harm done was very very minor. And when I'm counseling someone who claims to have managed instant forgiveness, I try to put the brakes on everything, as I'm fairly sure we've got someone in denial and/or confusion. (And any self-righteous asshole who takes it upon himself to lecture a "not-there-yet-but-struggling" person on how they really ought to be moving faster, needs to be introduced to a rusty farm implement.)
Holding a grudge is what is spiritually dangerous. And by that I mean the situation that arises when someone flat-out refuses to let the Holy Spirit and time do their usual work--instead, cherishes the anger, ruminates on it day and night without any wish or slightest attempt to avoid doing so, and actively goes out of their way to pay back the other person evil for evil. This is a choice of the will, not a state of emotions or memory.
Being furious and hurt and sick and disgusted does not constitute holding a grudge. Being unable to stop thinking about it does not constitute holding a grudge.
The problem comes in when there's finally a choice in the matter--where the person begins to regain some control over his/her own life, even the tiniest bit--and then has to make a choice whether to cherish the wrath and hatred, fanning the flames to keep it alive... or to do something else.
Forgiveness can start with something as small but momentous as "I'm not going to think about him right now, I'm going to look at kittens on the internet."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ramarius, you talk of helping other people through the forgiveness process. I'm assuming you're a pastor or trained counselor? Because it's a pretty dicey thing to take on, especially if you have no divine or professional mandate for doing so. The last thing you want to do is shove someone drowning in pain further under. And if it's not your own crisis, it's a very delicate matter to say to the person-in-pain, "You should do this or that." It's the reason I'm staying the hell out of my sister's cancer crisis ("Oh, you should take more vitamins"/"find a new doctor"/"burn this candle and pray to St. Whatsit"). She'd likely skewer me for making things worse.
IMNSHO the best thing you can do is to listen as lovingly and nonjudgementally as you can, and then (if you can't take it anymore or suspect things are going on too long) offer some sort of distraction. Take the person to a movie. Get icecream. Ask how their son/daughter/parakeet/crazy aunt is doing. Anything to get their mind running on more positive tracks, at least for a moment.
And of course, pray for them. God can do so much more for them than you can.
[ 23. November 2015, 19:49: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
IMNSHO the best thing you can do is to listen as lovingly and nonjudgementally as you can, and then (if you can't take it anymore or suspect things are going on too long) offer some sort of distraction...Anything to get their mind running on more positive tracks, at least for a moment.
And of course, pray for them. God can do so much more for them than you can.
FW my view IW, and speaking as a furious in-danger-of-doing-myself-in-by-giving-myself-over-to-being-a-grudge-holder, I consider this to be excellent guidance.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Personally, I see the intention toward forgiveness, or as LC says "not-yet-there" as being acceptably on the forgiveness highway. Emotions are not totally governable, but the will and intentions are more so. With the help of the Spirit, perhaps as with all our other short-comings we will be cleaned up for Heaven.
Fortunately I've never been hurt the way LC and others have been hurt. But I do have a long time friend to whom I lent money (I know! I know!) that I could ill-afford who proceeded to insist that she only owed me a fraction of what I had given her. And she did give back that fraction. I'm still her friend and that took a conscious decision on my part, even though she never did and I don't think ever will admit to me or herself that she was in the wrong. She has since asked to borrow a smaller amount and I firmly refused. But we still see each other a few times a month to do mutually enjoyable activities. Yes, the situation sometimes comes to mind but it is no longer in the forefront when I am with her. That's where the Spirit has gotten me, thanks be.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
ETA: to Mark--
Yeah, well, been-there done-that still-doing-that, which is how I know. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 23. November 2015, 20:21: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I need to know what not forgiving someone else looks like so I can avoid it
In my view there is no better way to know this than the voice of your own conscience enlightened by the Holy Spirit. You don't need a book, a counsellor, a course, or anything like this.
Basing yourself on someone else's tick-box list is about as good a way of deceiving oneself in this respect as I can think of. quote:
need to be able to recognise it in other people to help them through the process of forgiveness.
A thousand times what Lamb Chopped said. Job's friends stopped being helpful the moment they opened their mouths, and pretty soon they started doing damage.
The first precept of the Hippocratic Oath should be taken by all pastors and counsellors: first do no harm.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Ramarius
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Posted
@Lamb Chopped. Amongst other things, I work with various teams, part of whose role involves helping people on the forgiveness journey. And yes, we have all had various kinds of relevant professional training.
For many (most in fact) the forgiveness journey involves giving people an approach to forgiveness - a model if you like - which helps them understand the various stages of that journey, where they are on it, and the kinds of activities that help them navigate it. I have a particular role in that process, know where my limitations are, and when to involve others.
What people find helpful in this process depends on the extent of the trauma they have faced. As I think you said upthread, just telling people "you need forgive" is almost always unhelpful and counter productive.
A concept I've found particularly helpful is to see forgiveness as a process of healing. Sometimes this is literally the case - the medical case for the relationship between forgiveness and health conditions has been . well made.
For some people, recovering from aspects of their personal trauma is a prelude to forgiving the perpetrator. For others, it works the other way. The path is neither linear nor uniform. Every individual has their own path of forgiveness although, having said that, there is territory common to all.
One thing I've found particularly helpful is to give people space to tell their story. Internalising trauma is generally hugely damaging. I think this is one of the reasons the Holy Spirit gave us the Psalms - a language with which to address to God that can express whatever we're feeling, and know that we are safe to do so. It's a step that Christians are frequently in danger of missing if they feel under obligation to "forgive" quickly.
I think what you said about walking the journey with someone - without feeling you have to "fix" them is really important. In Christian circles, hurt people can easily feel guilt about not working through the forgiveness process as quickly as they think they "ought." Physically being there for someone in an accepting and non-judgemental way can be the reassurance they need that God hasn't abandoned them - sometimes the difference between them holding on to their faith and abandoning it.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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Posted
"Not there yet" re forgiveness is inappropriate. It can even be abusive. Because the very idea can create obligation in the mind of the person harmed. I think it should be left with the victim to determine, without suggestion from others. Just leave it alone.
It makes a great deal of difference if there is some form of prior relationship between the offender and victim. Further, when the person has only accepted guilt after a criminal conviction, then the forgiveness thing might well be used manipulatively by the offender.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
"Not there yet" re forgiveness is inappropriate. It can even be abusive. Because the very idea can create obligation in the mind of the person harmed. I think it should be left with the victim to determine, without suggestion from others. Just leave it alone.
It makes a great deal of difference if there is some form of prior relationship between the offender and victim. Further, when the person has only accepted guilt after a criminal conviction, then the forgiveness thing might well be used manipulatively by the offender.
For the record, "not there yet" is a way that the victim may choose to describe his/her state as a way of fending off the idiots who think instant total forgiveness is the way it ought to be. It shouldn't become in turn yet another category to be imposed on the victim, whether by the offender or anybody else.
What I take us to be discussing is the case of a victim who acknowledges the Lord's claim on his/her life vis-a-vis forgiving others, and how that plays out in daily life. No lesser person has a right to any demands or expectations whatsoever. Not the offender, not community leaders, not well-meaning friends, etc. That is holy ground.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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Good clarification LC.
<<Respect>>
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
"Not there yet" re forgiveness is inappropriate. It can even be abusive. Because the very idea can create obligation in the mind of the person harmed. I think it should be left with the victim to determine, without suggestion from others. Just leave it alone.
It's a good challenge N-P. T'other side of the coin is that just leaving the process up to the victim can end up not doing them any favours. Not forgiving compounds the trauma that caused it in the first place, raises stress levels, reduces the effectiveness of the immune system, increases the risk of ill-health, at worst raises the risk of a cycle of retribution. The goal has to be to help the victim to recover and get free from all that which sometimes involves some gentle challenge.
I reckon you can resolve that where the victim has asked for help to work through the process of forgiving. If you've gone to a counsellor, or even asked for help from a trusted friend, you've given them permission to tell you what you need to hear as well as listen to you. Having that relationship can also protect the vic from self-righteous busy bodies.
See where I'm coming from? Help me out here - what do you reckon?
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
It's a good challenge N-P. T'other side of the coin is that just leaving the process up to the victim can end up not doing them any favours. Not forgiving compounds the trauma that caused it in the first place, raises stress levels, reduces the effectiveness of the immune system, increases the risk of ill-health, at worst raises the risk of a cycle of retribution. The goal has to be to help the victim to recover and get free from all that which sometimes involves some gentle challenge.
Aren't you assuming a causality not in evidence? It seems just as plausible that physical recovery and reduced stress may be contributing factors in someone's likeliness to forgive as the theory that the causality runs the other way.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Not forgiving compounds the trauma that caused it in the first place, raises stress levels, reduces the effectiveness of the immune system, increases the risk of ill-health, at worst raises the risk of a cycle of retribution.
There's a world of difference between such an assertion (bold as it is) as a general observation and applying it to a specific individual.
And some of what people go through as a result of kindly efforts to "help them to forgive" can be just as traumatic as any supposed "unforgiveness" perceived by the would-be helper. Did you not read Croesos' posts?
Finally, it's only one step, in some misguided so-called "Biblical counselling" processes, from thinking like that to "diagnosing" poor health, stress, and/or low immune system levels (!) as the outcome of this nebulous concept "unforgiveness".
[x-posted with Croesos]
[ 24. November 2015, 14:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Not forgiving compounds the trauma that caused it in the first place, raises stress levels, reduces the effectiveness of the immune system, increases the risk of ill-health, at worst raises the risk of a cycle of retribution.
There's a world of difference between such an assertion (bold as it is) as a general observation and applying it to a specific individual.
And some of what people go through as a result of kindly efforts to "help them to forgive" can be just as traumatic as any supposed "unforgiveness" perceived by the would-be helper. Did you not read Croesos' posts?
Finally, it's only one step, in some misguided so-called "Biblical counselling" processes, from thinking like that to "diagnosing" poor health, stress, and/or low immune system levels (!) as the outcome of this nebulous concept "unforgiveness".
[x-posted with Croesos]
Plenty of research on the links between forgiveness/not forgiving and health.
Here you go (it's what Ramarius posted upthread).
And sure, you can mess people up with bad pastoring. You can mess people up with bad medical practice. That's not a reason to give up practicing health care.
You have to remember mate, this isn't just about Christians and church. People of other faiths or no get professional help to deal with psychological trauma. Therapies involving forgiveness are recognised as a valid and appropriate intervention.
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
It's a good challenge N-P. T'other side of the coin is that just leaving the process up to the victim can end up not doing them any favours. Not forgiving compounds the trauma that caused it in the first place, raises stress levels, reduces the effectiveness of the immune system, increases the risk of ill-health, at worst raises the risk of a cycle of retribution. The goal has to be to help the victim to recover and get free from all that which sometimes involves some gentle challenge.
Aren't you assuming a causality not in evidence? It seems just as plausible that physical recovery and reduced stress may be contributing factors in someone's likeliness to forgive as the theory that the causality runs the other way.
Alright Croesos? I've posted a link re medical evidence with Eutychus. Question for you then. For people seeking help to get to a place where they can forgive a perp, and who won't go a million miles near a church, what sorts of interventions do you know of that could help them?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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Posted
My read of forgiveness information has been that it is confounded with level of anger, hostility and bitterness, for which there is rather good information about physiological consequences. I am not convinced that forgiveness is the actual thing that enhances health. Possibly over-rated by those who have a stake in the concept, such as clergy and religious people. We want people to feel mastery, not be anger, and have lower stress, all of which help mental and physical health.
So I am not convinced that forgiveness is a necessary method to get there. I'm also not convinced the retribution, even though the idea offends some of us, isn't something that can enhance physical and mental wellbeing. Again, mastery, release of anger, and lowered stress, if they are the key issues, may well be enhanced by the punishment and even the enjoyment of the suffering of an offender. The morality of this is something else entirely.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
My read of forgiveness information has been that it is confounded with level of anger, hostility and bitterness, for which there is rather good information about physiological consequences. I am not convinced that forgiveness is the actual thing that enhances health. Possibly over-rated by those who have a stake in the concept, such as clergy and religious people. We want people to feel mastery, not be anger, and have lower stress, all of which help mental and physical health.
So I am not convinced that forgiveness is a necessary method to get there. I'm also not convinced the retribution, even though the idea offends some of us, isn't something that can enhance physical and mental wellbeing. Again, mastery, release of anger, and lowered stress, if they are the key issues, may well be enhanced by the punishment and even the enjoyment of the suffering of an offender. The morality of this is something else entirely.
Cheers mate. As a matter of interest, I reckon getting angry with what the perp did - which in practical terms means getting angry with the perp - is pretty much unavoidable. So that's part of the forgiveness journey if you can get past it.
On the medical stuff - link above in a post to Eutychus. Here's another one. I had to do some work with people of no faith wanting help with forgiveness issues. Found it enlightening how you can approach this successfully without reference to God, faith or the Bible.
Just so's you know, whilst theologically speaking I'd say there's a common grace that helps us as humans to learn how to forgive, I'll always point people to Christ as the greatest teacher and exponent of forgiveness.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Aren't you assuming a causality not in evidence? It seems just as plausible that physical recovery and reduced stress may be contributing factors in someone's likeliness to forgive as the theory that the causality runs the other way.
Alright Croesos? I've posted a link re medical evidence with Eutychus.
Yes, all of which seems to assume rather than demonstrate the direction of causality. It's just as plausible to posit that forgiveness is the result of better health, rather than the cause of it.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Just so's you know, whilst theologically speaking I'd say there's a common grace that helps us as humans to learn how to forgive, I'll always point people to Christ as the greatest teacher and exponent of forgiveness.
Yes, Jesus was kind of nuts about it wasn't he? Forgiving the people who nailed him up.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Plenty of research on the links between forgiveness/not forgiving and health.
Here you go (...) You have to remember mate, this isn't just about Christians and church.
Not about Christians and church, eh? I note, mate, that this "research" [sic] is written by quote:
a secular associate of the Carmelite Order, an order that focuses on prayer and a contemplative relationship with God
that it contains absolutely zero empirical data, and refers to a "landmark study" in which quote:
Three were Protestant and two were Catholic
There is no meaningful definition of forgiveness in this "non-religious" "research" at all.
You describe that as "medical evidence". Are you serious?
quote:
On the medical stuff (...) Here's another one
Again, are you serious? Pointing to a Huffington Post article as "medical research"?
I took what looked to be the most serious link in that article, which took me here. This is a psychological, not a medical study.
In it, my eye did fall on this paragraph though (emphasis mine): quote:
To end the cycle of negative emotions and interactions, victims can forgive the perpetrator; the perpetrator can offer amends for the transgression. In our prior work, we have defined victim forgiveness as the victim’s willingness to (a) forego vengeance and demands for retribution and (b) react to the betrayal in a constructive, less judgmental manner (Finkel, Rusbult, Kumashiro, & Hannon, 2002). We define perpetrator amends as accepting responsibility for an act of betrayal, and offering genuine atonement for one’s actions (Hannon, Rusbult, Finkel, & Kumashiro, 2010). Given that victim forgiveness and perpetrator amends have been shown to simultaneously contribute to transgression resolution or “closure” for both partners (Hannon et al., 2010), they may also yield decreased physiological arousal for both partners.
Two things:
Firstly, the authors are a lot more tentative than you about the link between “unforgiveness” and health: “may yield decreased physiological arousal”, which to me sounds like saying “after a row, you tend to calm down”.
Secondly, in this paper at least, there is just as much importance ascribed to the actions of the perpetrator making amends as to those of the victim.
In other words, it says as much in favour of a bilateral approach to forgiveness as a unilateral one.
Once again, I don't deny that there may be therapeutic benefits to what I would call “letting go” and which popular psychology often seems to refer to as “forgiveness”.
But I reiterate my point that mixing this up with what the Bible portrays as forgiveness, introducing the quasi-Biblical term of “unforgiveness” and presenting the resulting “forgiveness process” as a panacea for every ailment is a toxic cocktail, and the recourse you make to supposed references doesn’t reassure me at all.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Aren't you assuming a causality not in evidence? It seems just as plausible that physical recovery and reduced stress may be contributing factors in someone's likeliness to forgive as the theory that the causality runs the other way.
Alright Croesos? I've posted a link re medical evidence with Eutychus.
Yes, all of which seems to assume rather than demonstrate the direction of causality. It's just as plausible to posit that forgiveness is the result of better health, rather than the cause of it.
Have another gander at the Huffington Post link. You can find research that supports the causal link between good health and forgiveness and the counterfactual ill-health unforgiveness.
I can see why you'd have a problem with this stuff when it's linked to Christian ministry. Not sure what you've got to worry about where we're just looking at the links between human psychology and physiology.
Am I missing something?
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
The cited studies in the Puchalski article seem a bit squirrelly. Take this description, for instance:
quote:
In one study, incest survivors who experienced the forgiveness intervention had at the end of the intervention increased abilities to forgive others, increased hopefulness and decreased levels of anxiety and depression.
This is attributed to a paper in the Journal of Counseling and Clinical Psychology. No such publication seems to exist, though the study cited was available in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. (This may seem like picking nits, but inaccurate citation is a big deal in academic papers.) Anyway, according to the abstract:
quote:
An intervention, with forgiveness toward their abuser as the goal, was implemented with 12 female incest survivors. The women, from a midwestern city, were 24 to 54 years old, and all were Caucasian. A yoked, randomized experimental and control group design was used. The participants were randomly assigned to an experimental group (receiving the forgiveness intervention immediately) or a waiting-list control group (receiving the intervention when their matched experimental counterpart finished the intervention). Each participant met individually with the intervener once per week. The average length of the intervention for the 12 participants was 14.3 months. A process model of forgiveness was used as the focus of intervention. Dependent variables included forgiveness, self-esteem, hope, psychological depression, and state-trait anxiety scales. After the intervention, the experimental group gained more than the control group in forgiveness and hope and decreased significantly more than the control group in anxiety and depression. When the control group then began the program they showed similar change patterns to the above, as well as in self-esteem improvement.
(PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)
Emphasis added by me. This was a study of self-selected subjects who were willing to voluntarily involve themselves in "[a]n intervention with forgiveness toward their abuser as the goal". Automatically excluded from this study is anyone who did not feel the need to forgive a relative who had sexually assaulted them. So there's no real way to tell if the benefits measured can be ascribed to "forgiveness" generally, or to the patients' unmet desire to forgive their abusers being achieved through the process.
Other citations at the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion and the Journal of Moral Education for those who want to go through them.
[ 24. November 2015, 17:07: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Have another gander at the Huffington Post link. You can find research that supports the causal link between good health and forgiveness and the counterfactual ill-health unforgiveness.
The only thing I found there (without signing up to dodgy download sites) was a blogpost ( ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) , this is "evidence"?) reporting the "finding" that people who believe in God's unconditional forgiveness tend do die sooner. Presumably that "finding" is also grist to your mill? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
If you want to back up your claims, it's you who are going to have to do the gandering and quote the relevant parts of your sources, not just throw feel-good how-to pseudo-science articles at us.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
@Eutychus. You worry me sometimes. I find you all these nice links to academic research and you get excited by the news vehicle that they get published under. Whatever. This studyis from an interdisciplinary journal with extensive references to other research. It's one starting point if you're interested (useful working definition of forgiveness in the abstract by the way).
Or you could have a sober chat with a professional psychotherapist working in an interdisciplinary team and ask them what the research in this area has thrown up.
But if you reckon you know all you need to know for the work you do that's your call. I need stuff I can use both in a church context and outside.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
This might be useful. APA summary of research in PDF on forgiveness in various contexts. The operational definitions at beginning help clarify some things.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Just so's you know, whilst theologically speaking I'd say there's a common grace that helps us as humans to learn how to forgive, I'll always point people to Christ as the greatest teacher and exponent of forgiveness.
Yes, Jesus was kind of nuts about it wasn't he? Forgiving the people who nailed him up.
Well, no he didn't. He said, 'Father forgive...' - maybe because he couldn't at that moment.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
@Eutychus. You worry me sometimes. I find you all these nice links to academic research and you get excited by the news vehicle that they get published under. Whatever.
When you're trying to build a case, referring to a summary article as "evidence" worries me.
quote:
This studyis from an interdisciplinary journal with extensive references to other research.
Yes, and I quoted one of its findings above, which is that believers in God's unconditional forgiveness die sooner: quote:
One of the more vexing findings from our analyses was that individuals who reported believing in God’s unconditional forgiveness were initially found to be at greater risk of mortality.
How does that fit your theory?
quote:
It's one starting point if you're interested (useful working definition of forgiveness in the abstract by the way).
Yes, at least there is one, unlike some of the other stuff you linked to, and it looks pretty good. For a start, it makes unilateral forgiveness without the offender being involved the exception and not the rule: quote:
It can occur without reconciliation, which requires the participation of both parties, if the person who caused the hurt is absent, deceased, or remains unsafe
and distinguishes quote:
Dispositional forgiveness, also known as trait forgiveness or forgivingness (...) a general tendency to forgive others or oneself that is stable over time and across offenders or situations
which is a whole other kettle of fish to forgiving a particular offence and/or offender.
I think Christians are definitely commanded to be dispositionally forgiving, but unconditional forgiveness for a specific offender/offence does not follow automatically from that.
And crucially, to Croesos' point, the conclusions state the following, my bold: quote:
Third, the mediation
analyses conducted here provide some insight into the mechanisms underlying the forgiveness-mortality link, but because mediators were assessed at baseline, the causal ordering of predictors and mediators is not conclusive in
this study.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in layman's terms that's saying "we've established a link, but not conclusively established the direction of causality".
quote:
But if you reckon you know all you need to know for the work you do that's your call.
I'm sure I don't. What's worrying me is the shaky basis for your apparent certainty, especially if such certainty translates into certainty about how God sees (un)forgiveness for others for whom you are in a role of authority.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Just so's you know, whilst theologically speaking I'd say there's a common grace that helps us as humans to learn how to forgive, I'll always point people to Christ as the greatest teacher and exponent of forgiveness.
Yes, Jesus was kind of nuts about it wasn't he? Forgiving the people who nailed him up.
Well, no he didn't. He said, 'Father forgive...' - maybe because he couldn't at that moment.
Silly me confusing the Trinity all up.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Silly me confusing the Trinity all up.
Help is at hand - just a few posts up: quote:
To avoid any Trinitarian confusion, let's use the example of Stephen.
[ 24. November 2015, 18:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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