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Thread: Banning the Lord's Prayer - daft, illegal, or sinister?
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Church should be countering the consumerist values of our culture. That could be done through advertising, but I think it should be done carefully. Advertising is the means that consumerism uses to encourage people to consume more, and to consume the particular product or service advertised.
I'd be interested to hear your views on churches who have obviously used media-savvy people to design their websites, which then give a wonderful impression of their "vibrant" and "growing" church with "awesome" worship and "anointed" or "life-changing" preaching. Is this (a) a church eager to promote a contemporary image and hope to draw in unchurched people; or (b) a church which has unconsciously imbibed consumerist values and is seeking to strengthen its position in the worship market-place?
I suppose the first question is whether the website is giving an accurate portrayal of the church.
Second would be who the target audience is. Are they seeking to portray themselves as the church to be at to attract people who may feel it's time to try a different church? If so, then it would seem not unreasonable to question whether they are seeking to expand the Kingdom or just their particular niche. Or, are they aiming towards the unchurched? If so, it might help members with unchurched friends to be able to show something that isn't 20 elderly people in a cold stone barn with hard pews. If it takes down a barrier then that can't be bad.
On Sunday morning we were talking about Acts 5:13. The church meeting in Solomons Colonnade, having the favour of the people yet there was something that meant the people didn't dare to join the meeting. Whatever the Church was doing in those meetings (one assumes listening to the teaching of the apostles, praying, singing psalms) was a barrier to people joining the meeting. Yet, at the same time there were lots of people joining the church. We were speculating on what the Church was doing that they were not attempting to make the meeting open and accessible to everyone - and how many churches today seek to do just that.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Actually, I'm thinking of how the term was used 30 years ago in full-on charismatic circles ...
I suspect it was used differently there than how it was used in more conservative evangelical circles - but I'd imagine the terms were running in parallel with slightly different emphases/meanings according to the particular stripe of evangelical we're talking about.
I've had experience of both conservative and charismatic evangelicalism - going back to 1981 as an active participant and longer than that in terms of awareness of various groups ...
I must admit, I'd never come across the term 'prayer warriors' in anything but full-on charismatic churches which were influenced by 'prayer warfare' teachings to a greater or lesser extent.
I certainly came across people such as you describe in more conservative evangelical circles - as indeed I did in charismatic circles too - but I never heard them described as 'prayer warriors' as such.
If my memory serves, such people were often referred to in hushed, reverent tones ... as though they were people particularly close to the Lord.
Both charismatic and conservative evangelicals back then were influenced by stories of 'Praying Hyde' and George Muller ... Victorian and Edwardian missionaries and philanthropists noted for their 'prevailing prayer'.
Adrian Plass's 'Lamp-post' Lunchington seems to be a hybrid based on some of these near legendary figures - Smith Wigglesworth for the Pentecostals, C T Studd and Rhys Howells more broadly ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
On Sunday morning we were talking about Acts 5:13. The church meeting in Solomons Colonnade, having the favour of the people yet there was something that meant the people didn't dare to join the meeting. Whatever the Church was doing in those meetings (one assumes listening to the teaching of the apostles, praying, singing psalms) was a barrier to people joining the meeting. Yet, at the same time there were lots of people joining the church. We were speculating on what the Church was doing that they were not attempting to make the meeting open and accessible to everyone - and how many churches today seek to do just that.
My knee-jerk answer would be that there was a sense of 'the fear of the Lord' - which isn't something you can simply go away and replicate or manufacture.
There was a seriousness about what they were doing which was tangible.
It's not 'what' they were doing as such - there's actually only so many things you can 'do' in a church gathering - but perhaps more 'how' they were doing it ...
[code]
[ 24. November 2015, 11:23: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I must admit, I'd never come across the term 'prayer warriors' in anything but full-on charismatic churches which were influenced by 'prayer warfare' teachings to a greater or lesser extent.
I certainly came across people such as you describe in more conservative evangelical circles - as indeed I did in charismatic circles too - but I never heard them described as 'prayer warriors' as such.
I was a member of an evangelical mission organisation in which this term had been common currency since the 1930s at least ... it was certainly still in use in the late 1970s.
As an aside, the organisation called its missionary prayer meetings "prayer batteries" - the allusion being military (WW1) rather than electrical, with prayer acting as spiritual salvoes into the Devil's territory. That was "spiritual warfare" long before the modern charismatic movement reared its head.
(Isn't it amazing how quickly we can go off on tangential topics ...?)
[ 24. November 2015, 10:27: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I certainly came across people such as you describe in more conservative evangelical circles - as indeed I did in charismatic circles too - but I never heard them described as 'prayer warriors' as such.
If my memory serves, such people were often referred to in hushed, reverent tones ... as though they were people particularly close to the Lord.
Hushed and reverent tones, definitely. The people we knew we should emulate. We knew our prayer lives to be pitiful, and that we should prayer more and more deeply - as they did. But, with the fear that if we did so God might notice us. If that happened we might get off lightly and get called the CU Exec, but more likely He would put us on the next plane to Mombasa.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'd be interested to hear your views on churches who have obviously used media-savvy people to design their websites, which then give a wonderful impression of their "vibrant" and "growing" church with "awesome" worship and "anointed" or "life-changing" preaching. Is this (a) a church eager to promote a contemporary image and hope to draw in unchurched people; or (b) a church which has unconsciously imbibed consumerist values and is seeking to strengthen its position in the worship market-place?
I hope you don't mind me commenting on this, I'm not sure if you were just addressing AC or asking for general thoughts.
Mine are these: I'm surprised that so few seem to have problems with the way that churches "advertise" themselves on their websites. They're frequently inaccurate and rarely seem to serve much purpose beyond the service times.
Sometimes they include things like a sermon archive, but one wonders whether anyone ever actually listens to such things outside of their own church community. I doubt it, to be honest.
quote:
(Personally I'd prefer a church which says, "We're a normal mixed bunch of people, sometimes we get things amazingly right and sometimes we get them terribly wrong, most of the time we manage to rub along together quite well with God's help, occasionally our services are fairly inspiring but more often they're pretty much routine, our Vicar has her foibles but we know she's doing her best ..." ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) )
Me too. I'm wondering whether we are past "peak church internet" and into territory where many will choose not to use this method of communication.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think there's a difference between advertising and PR about a specific event and using media to try simply to "raise the profile" of Christianity and what it is.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Sometimes they include things like a sermon archive, but one wonders whether anyone ever actually listens to such things outside of their own church community. I doubt it, to be honest.
I know someone here who streams sermons from a variety of churches, some where he has been a member but more often something someone else has recommended. So, there is a surprisingly large number of people who will listen to archived sermons.
On the otherhand, when I'm preaching I'd request the sermon not be archived. If recorded only to be shared with people who were absent, and all copies to be deleted once listened to. I preach to a particular congregation at a particular time, I'm not preaching to prosperity.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I know someone here who streams sermons from a variety of churches, some where he has been a member but more often something someone else has recommended. So, there is a surprisingly large number of people who will listen to archived sermons.
I have also heard such things (especially about hits on websites and numbers of streams) and have come to the conclusion that they're most likely bots from search engines etc rather than real people. Why would anyone listen to a sermon by a random person at a random church?
I can believe that sometimes someone tunes in after a recommendation and/or to give to someone sick in hospital. In my youth, I remember tapes being made and passed around for this purpose, but I really don't believe that in most cases anyone is tuning in outside of this same circle.
On the whole, churches tend to be rather blind to the fact that nobody is much interested in their preaching and seem to believe that they're magically preaching to their community, and by extension the world, by having a sermon stream of all the thoughts by their pastor/vicar/priest/etc.
Like it or not, it is a retail supermarket environment for sermons out there. It is very unlikely that anyone outside of a small sphere of influence will be listening to a bad recording of an unremarkable sermon.
Indeed, I'd also say that the fact so much is being invested by many different churches in visual/audio recording and performance equipment says rather a lot about us as people in the UK in 2015.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think there's a difference between advertising and PR about a specific event and using media to try simply to "raise the profile" of Christianity and what it is.
The difference being what...? Can you finish the thought, as I'm interested to hear more about what you mean by this.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I hope you don't mind me commenting on this
Not in the slightest, thank you!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think there's a difference between advertising and PR about a specific event and using media to try simply to "raise the profile" of Christianity and what it is.
The difference being what...? Can you finish the thought, as I'm interested to hear more about what you mean by this.
I don't know. Advertising for an event puts you in the marketplace to jostle with everyone else. Enjoining people to engage with a historic prayer of your religion feels paternalistic and hectoring.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
We don't have actual church adverts on British TV, but I suspect that things are different in some other places ... the same questions could be asked.
(Personally I'd prefer a church which says, "We're a normal mixed bunch of people, sometimes we get things amazingly right and sometimes we get them terribly wrong, most of the time we manage to rub along together quite well with God's help, occasionally our services are fairly inspiring but more often they're pretty much routine, our Vicar has her foibles but we know she's doing her best ..." )
This sounds like the perfect sort of promotion for a very 'ordinary' church. The problem is that 'ordinary' churches don't appear to have the money to promote themselves in any detailed way, and don't have the skills to do it themselves. You're lucky if they have a website that does much more than give you the times of worship.
Apart from cathedrals, it's usually the 'vibrant', 'awesome' and 'growing' churches that have any kind of detail on their websites. However, it's interesting that this CofE ad carefully avoided including a segment of obviously 'vibrant' charismatic worship (although there was a gospel choir practice and a baptism). But it also avoided any images of old ladies at prayer!
[ 24. November 2015, 12:26: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I hope you aren't 'preaching for prosperity' Alan.
I suspect you meant to type 'posterity'.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Why would anyone listen to a sermon by a random person at a random church?
Why not?
If we (Flanderella and I) are in an unfamiliar town on a Sunday for whatever reason and we go to a local church, that's exactly what we do.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Sometimes they include things like a sermon archive, but one wonders whether anyone ever actually listens to such things outside of their own church community. I doubt it, to be honest.
Having just finished a year searching for a new pastor, I can tell you one group outside the congregation who might. We found those sermon archives to be very helpful in narrowing down who we wanted to talk with.
Of course, I doubt that's the reason that the congregations in question made the sermons so readily available to start with.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
There's an otherwise well regarded regional airline here where your snack comes with a slip of paper printed with a psalm. I find it creepy and hope that it's seen as evangelism and not an inside opinion on the likelihood of a successful flight.
How would you feel if it came with a fortune cookie?
At least you can eat the fortune cookie.
Including this bit?
You got me started now me ol' son - feel a Heaven thread coming on....
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There are several separate issues here getting confused.
One is whether a private company choosing not to run a particular type of ad consitutes a "ban" or infringement on free speech (as far as I'm concerned: no).
Depends.... on why they don't want to show it. DCM probably turn down plenty of requests to show ads because they don't come to an acceptable contract agreement with the vendor. In this case, CoF E seem to have got as far as negotiating on price - so far just another commercial deal in progress. It gets fishy when DCM say they won't show it because they reckon it will be "offensive." Implication is that it will scare people off coming to see the Star Wars movie and cost the cinema cash.
If DCM had just said we can get a better offer for the time from another seller I'd be shrugging me shoulders and saying "that's business." It's because they described religious content as potentially offensive that you get questions about compliance with UK Equalities legislation. It's not so much that the issues are confused, more that DCM have managed to get them intertwined. The question some have asked of CoE "what did you think was going to happen?" is probably also being asked of decision makers in DCM.
It'll all come out in the wash.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Sometimes [church websites] include things like a sermon archive, but one wonders whether anyone ever actually listens to such things outside of their own church community. I doubt it, to be honest.
[...] I'm wondering whether we are past "peak church internet" and into territory where many will choose not to use this method of communication.
Archived sermons are surely little different from sermons preached live; they're mostly designed for believers, not for unbelievers. Not everything a church does needs to be primarily about evangelism.
As for the internet, it doesn't seem to be the best place for Christian evangelism but I think it'll remain very important as a source of encouragement for Christians in the West, especially since our numbers here will probably continue to decline. In some countries Christian communities and individuals could become very isolated without the internet.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nah, I don't buy that Truman White. DCM won't have thought the ad would put people coming to the cinema - if people want to see the film, they'll see the film - they'll go in after the ads if necessary.
I really think some people here are over-estimating both the potential impact of the ad and the depth of feeling on the DCM side. I doubt they'd care a flying fart who advertises with them by and large, but, having introduced the no politics/no religion policy in the wake of hassle they'd experienced after the Scottish Referendum they decided to stick to their guns.
The 'offensive' thing simply sounds like a post-hoc rationalisation to me. They'd have been better off saying, 'Look, we don't care whether you're the Church of England, the Pope of Rome, the Grand Mufti or the Archpriest Zarg of the Cult of the Flying Jelly Monster of Planet Yaarz - we don't do politics and we don't do religion ... is that clear?'
The mistakes they seem to have made are:
- Apparently not communicating their change of policy to the CofE's media buyers.
- Dressing their refusal up in post-hoc justification ... 'it's offensive to people of other faiths/unbelievers' etc.
I think it's reading far too much into it to speculate any more than that.
Companies like DCM aren't generally in the business of turning away revenue - but having revised their policy, they were going to stick to it.
It's got bugger all to do with box-office takings. They'd get their money from the advertisers even if nobody turned up to see the Star Wars matinee in Bognor on a wet Wednesday afternoon.
Honestly, I'm getting rather tired of some of the speculations here by people who have never worked in advertising or communications, never booked media space in a publication or have little idea how these things work in practice.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
@Gamaliel - post-hoc rationalisation. Yup, with you all the way there me ol' son. BTW - just found this elsewhere on the web...
The Bishop of Chelmsford, the Rt Rev Stephen Cottrell, said on Twitter that far from having a long-held policy, DCM had changed its mind recently. He said, "DCM had given positive encouragement & offer of discount until a few weeks ago. No policy then." When he was asked, "you're saying this policy was only created in last few weeks?" The bishop responded, "Well they never said anything six months ago when they were offering a discount."
As you say, showing this or nay will make sod all difference to takings. What kind of offence would it take to keep people from going to see the new Star Wars?
You going by the way?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
The bishop responded, "Well they never said anything six months ago when they were offering a discount."
Right, that'll be because (as with most large corporations) those in sales do not make policy, are frequently the last to be told and do not have the final say on whether work is acceptable.
quote:
As you say, showing this or nay will make sod all difference to takings. What kind of offence would it take to keep people from going to see the new Star Wars?
I don't think it has anything to do with takings and everything to do with the potential annoyance that would ensue from accepting it. As Gam suggested above.
I do slightly take issue with the comment that the advert would be the same price if nobody saw it - I suspect (but admit to having no experience of the same) that the price for a nationwide campaign just before Star Wars would be slightly different to the price for a late night showing of a predicted turkey which comes out at the same time. I suspect that if you are the Church of England you may well also get a different price to the one offered to the local chipshop wanting to show a short ad at our local independent 3 screen.
Frankly, if the CofE is this incompetent, I'd be surprised if all suppliers don't start negotiations by asking for inflated prices.
[ 24. November 2015, 15:51: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
What kind of offence would it take to keep people from going to see the new Star Wars?
More Jar Jar Binks,* finding out George Lucas was involved in its making after all, the revelation the film was made solely to host the JustPray advert
*Jar Jar Binks - J. J. Abrams
Fools! We've been betrayed!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nah, I won't be going, I don't get to the pictures that much these days ... but I am something of a film buff.
The point several of us have been trying to make since more details became available is that DCM do appear to have dropped a catch by not informing the client (the CofE) of its change of policy.
It won't be the first time an agency has dropped a clanger like that - nor will it be the last ... the only difference this time is that there's a high-profile client (the CofE) and the post-hoc justification for the change has set the cat among the pigeons on social media and in the Daily Mail etc.
I think the CofE will have a good case for a refund or compensation of some kind - which is presumably the basis of the legal action that's been mentioned.
As for the discount ... ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Do they expect us to believe that anyone pays rate-card for their ads?
There's more stretch in media rates than a box of elastic bands.
The CofE will have been booked in at a premium for a potentially popular film such as Star Wars and then offered a discount to make it look as if they were getting a bargain.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
As a Christian and a Star Wars fan, I would be pleasantly surprised if I found the Archbishop of Canterbury popping up before the screening and saying a prayer. But I recognise that those present who are just Star Wars fans would find it a bit odd, so I am happy that the prayer ad isn't there to make them feel uncomfortable.
And as a Christian and a Star Wars fan, I would be pleasantly surprised if Yoda delivered the sermon in my local church on Sunday. But I recognise that many who go to my church are just Christians, and not Star Wars fans, and would find it a bit odd, so I am happy that Yoda will not be delivering a message and making them feel uncomfortable.
Did someone in the Church House Communications Department not sit up and say "hang on, this is a really bad idea - it will play well with (some of) the Christians in the cinema, but for everyone else it will just be plain weird".
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't believe the CofE's communications bods are any more or any less competent than similar departments elsewhere - whether the Salvation Army, Baptists, Methodists or whoever else - although they'll be much better resourced.
I'm not sure I explained myself very well when I mentioned low audiences in Bognor on a wet Wednesday afternoon. Of course there are premium packages for big box office films. The point I was trying to make is that the rate wouldn't shift if anticipated numbers didn't materialise - ans that Truman's point about the potential effect on box office takings didn't apply.
I still think the ad was ill-advised and misconceived - even though it's well produced. I suspect the CofE's comms people were dazzled by a smart ad agency presentation - they won't have been the first nor will they be the last.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
It gets fishy when DCM say they won't show it because they reckon it will be "offensive." Implication is that it will scare people off coming to see the Star Wars movie and cost the cinema cash.
I doubt a boycott of the film (at least for that reason, if it turns out to be a naff film that might do it) was in anyone's mind. They probably have memories of cinemas having to deal with loads of letters etc complaining about previous adverts. Which creates a major headache for cinema staff when they answer the phone expecting to be asked screening times for a film or whether a given showing is sold out and find they have Mr Angry ranting about his grandkids being indoctrinated by the adverts.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Symon Hill thinks thast people SHOULD be offended by the Lord's Prayer - it asks for a kingdom that isn't ruled by politicians, food for all people, cancellation of debts, forgiveness and so on.
It is a prayer of radical discipleship that should be a challenge to western consumerism.
Though, the irony of the link is the bio piece at the bottom where we are told "his latest book is published this week".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, Symon Hill has got to make a living somehow ... if I ever got a poetry collection published, for instance, I'd be pushing it on my blog ... and anywhere and everywhere else ...
But I take your point and think there's something a bit 'disco vicar' - as da yoof would say - about people like Symon Hill and other preachers/commentators I've seen jumping on this particular band-wagon to say, 'Look folks, you think this is all pwetty establishment, yeah? But actually, it's pwetty wadical ... like weally, weally wadical if we stopped to look at the actual words we'd all wealise how weally, weally wadical it is ...'
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The thing is, nobody's listening to them any more than they are to Welby or the other establishment bugbears.
People have been railing against the CofE's assumption that the stable door is slightly ajar - and not wide and whoppingly open ... and with some justification.
I'm equally of critical of the self-styled right-on bloggers and commentators who think they're cool and 'down wiv da kids' and so on.
Radical my arse.
They're about as radical as a Sunday school picnic on a wet weekend in Bognor ...
I'm not saying that the Lord's Prayer and the Magnificat and other NT texts aren't radical - of course they are - but what isn't radical is spouting off on a blog as if you're hipper than thou and provide some kind of alternative ...
Nobody cares. Nobody's listening. Everyone has fucked off somewhere else.
We need to wake up to that, accept that fact.
As to what we do about it - well, the age of mass-market campaigns organised centrally - either by a state-church or some kind of pan-denominational initiative - as per the Billy Graham crusades of yore - is well and truly over. Even the CofE's comms team may learn that lesson from this incident at least.
It's over. It is finished.
We are marginalised. We are no longer at the centre. Yes, there are residual elements of Christendom, yes there is still some form of penumbra but it is diminishing ... and to be fair, for all its faults, the CofE establishment is at least trying to maintain some kind of Christian presence in the public domain - for better or worse.
I don't know what the answer is - I don't think there is one ... other than to act in a grass-roots way and get involved with whatever is going on wherever we are.
How sustainable that is remains to be seen.
I've often scoffed at forms of cafe church and trendy-wendy 'emerging' or Fresh Expressions experiments but I can sympathise with these attempts ... whatever tradition or churchmanship we represent or espouse the future is going to be grass-roots and low key.
My daughter's studying Illustration and tells me there's a move away from social media among some of the industry gurus. They'll post their work on Instagram once a week but invite anyone who wants to discuss illustrative issues to meet them in various cafes or bars ... they mount 'guerilla' exhibitions and 'happenings' ... it's a bit of a throw-back to the '60s in that sense ...
I don't know whether this represents a groundswell - perhaps they only want to meet acolytes and to get laid - who knows? But I do wonder whether there are parallels with low-key ways of 'doing church'.
It's name-drop time, but I was at a Poetry Masterclass residential with Carol Ann Duffy recently and she was encouraging us to set up our own mini-publishing houses and imprints rather than waiting years and years for the established and mainstream publishers to notice us.
'That's the future,' she said. 'Musicians are doing it ...'
Anyhow and at any rate - I think this incident - whatever the rights and wrongs and ins and outs - is just one of the spasms/death throes of Christendom (if I can mention that here) ... and whilst I don't believe that Christendom was all wrong, wicked or evil ... there were good, bad and indifferent aspects, like anything else - it's certainly had its day.
Who knows what the future holds? I'm not sure it holds much room anymore for the kind of co-ordinated and costly communications campaign that the CofE comms team had in mind. Bless 'em.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
mr cheesy: quote:
Why would anyone listen to a sermon by a random person at a random church?
<cynicism on> Noone has yet mentioned the vicar searching desperately for inspiration for Sunday morning at 10.00 pm on Saturday night... <\cynicism off>
Or perhaps noone else has read 'The Great Sermon Handicap' by P. G. Wodehouse?
Of course, none of the clergy who are Shipmates would ever resort to such a stratagem...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Gamaliel posted: It's over. It us finished. We are marginalised. We are no longer at the centre.
You say this like it's a bad thing?
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
That wasn't my intention, Polly - I wasn't making a value judgement about that one way or t'other ...
For what it's worth, I think it's a question of swings and roundabouts. Having Christianity more centre-stage in society - as happened during the various phases of Christendom - has both pros and cons ... it creates a general level of awareness, it brings the church into the centre of things ... but at a price ... compromise on certain issues, nominalism etc etc ...
Having a less central position has equal and opposite pros and cons ...
I'm not saying it's a case of weighing them all up in balancing scales to see which one is best ... but as someone who has spent time in both the 'independent sector' church-wise as it were - and in Anglican circles I can see pros and cons all ways round ... I certainly wouldn't want to point to this that or the other set-up and say that this one is 'better' than that one ...
It seems to me that there are some smug and self-satisfied Anglicans around and that there are also smug self-satisfied non-conformists - 'At least we're not likely those nasty, compromised Anglicans over there ... we're not tarred with the State brush ... we're not compromised ...'
Oh, really?
I suspect we'll all lose out to some extent as the influence of Christendom wanes - and we're going to have to get used to that.
And the Free Churches have benefitted from the over-arching Christendom umbrella too, of course - even if they protest otherwise.
It'll be tough going for all of us but that's where we headed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Gamaliel posted: It's over. It us finished. We are marginalised. We are no longer at the centre.
You say this like it's a bad thing?
'It' might be finished, but the CofE hasn't shut up shop yet, and there's still a bit of money in the kitty. There are staff who need something to do, and if they weren't being kept busy putting together projects like this, what else would they be doing?
The other thing that occurs to me is that this kind of project might not be about evangelism, but about maintaining brand awareness. We assume that everyone knows about the Lord's Prayer, but outside a Year 7 RE class many young people might barely have come across it, or seen anyone reciting it. So at the very least an ad like this will be educational, and remind people of their religious heritage. Although an ad of people reciting their seven times table would also be educational, and presumably much more useful in a post-Christian environment.....
[ 25. November 2015, 21:07: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I was being dramatic for rhetorical effect. I don't believe the CofE is finished ... what is finished - or diminishing - are the conditions in which it flourished - if ever it did.
The point I'm making is that the days when we could expect channels to be open to us are over. We are entering new - or if you like, old - territory ... a post-Christian era.
Whether we think that is good, bad or indifferent - that's where we're headed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What an invigorating rant Gamaliel!
I am SO depressed that there is NOTHING visibly radical about the Church in the UK at all.
Apart from Steve Chalke of course.
This Monday's home group brought out the worst in me with the proposition that we should be going walk about asking the Holy Spirit who we should walk up to and pray for, 'JUST like the miracle working disciples', when Bangladesh is on the edge of drowning and can you imagine the violent death throes of a drowning nation? While next door India goes for the title of biggest carbon footprint. Paris is nowt. And all we can do about that is more bombing. 'Led' by Justin, Andrew and George. Not a bishop of Chichester among them.
Is there ANY Christian leadership in Britain? Let alone Europe. There are bright lights in America but it's high noon there.
It would seem that the paradigm of leadership outside Waterloo is dead. Where are the 7000 prophets God has hidden away? I see NOTHING happening, have seen NOTHING happening for ten years in four Anglican congregations. Nothing. Less than nothing. Greying decline. There are prophecy weekends and men's dining and one in hundred of those men and less with a story to tell.
Like that which inspired this thread, it's all so utterly small beer in a tea cup irrelevant.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
There's no question as to the kind of era we're living in. The question is what can or should be done about it.
This ad was apparently unsuitable for the cinemas, but it's an attractive resource that's contributed to an ongoing conversation, and therefore I think it's worthwhile. But I agree that it's not going to change the world.
[ 25. November 2015, 23:15: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I am SO depressed that there is NOTHING visibly radical about the Church in the UK at all.
Apart from Steve Chalke of course.
[...]
Is there ANY Christian leadership in Britain? Let alone Europe. There are bright lights in America but it's high noon there.
It would seem that the paradigm of leadership outside Waterloo is dead. Where are the 7000 prophets God has hidden away? I see NOTHING happening, have seen NOTHING happening for ten years in four Anglican congregations. Nothing. Less than nothing. Greying decline. There are prophecy weekends and men's dining and one in hundred of those men and less with a story to tell.
Like that which inspired this thread, it's all so utterly small beer in a tea cup irrelevant.
I kind of agree with you about leadership. David Voas says that 'most ordained ministers are good, well-meaning people with the leadership ability of bank managers.' The same article says that leaders who can 'inspire and build congregations are few and far between' - but on top of that you want them to be theologically 'radical'! That seems to be a particularly rare combination.
However, I've realised that if you want something done, you have to do it yourself. Why is it someone else's job to put themselves in the firing line?
[ 25. November 2015, 23:37: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm equating or rather intersecting leadership with radicality. As Jeremy Corbyn does. I'm one old man and for a couple of hours every week or so I shake hands with homeless and vulnerably housed people. I look at my Christian peers and 'leaders' all the way up and see that the emperor is naked. One in a hundred are 'on fire' with passionate intensity ... and that's all it ever will be and they are just as naked. Meanwhile the poor and imprisoned and the sick and the enemy and the rest of the 97% call it 98.5% call it ... carry on without us making the slightest difference. Mother Theresa is long gone.
Sorry.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I'm with Svetlana on this.I have serious doubts as to the legitimacy of saying 'somebody ought to .... '. This 'somebody' is merely another word for 'they'.
I've also serious doubts that what 'somebody' or 'they' should be doing is giving vent to radical utterances. I can sit in a pub and rant. So what? I was at a public meeting yesterday evening at which a lot of people ranted, largely fuelled by an entirely reasonable sense of grievance. Will they have changed anything? I suspect not.
Leadership is about doing something and getting other people to do things, not about saying things.
In church circles, leadership is more difficult than elsewhere because the leaders are having to lead volunteers. If you can't inspire them and carry them, they will do nothing or go elsewhere.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I can certainly identify with your last comments, Enoch.
And - responding to M60 - I can also say that many church leaders start out as radical visionaries with fire in their bellies but get worn down over years of dealing with the petty minutiae of church life, pacifying the folk who have become "upset" by something that someone has said, and being horrified at the insular and small-minded perspectives of so many Christians. Can you really blame them if they end up losing their enthusiasm, going through the motions and serving the system?
[ 26. November 2015, 09:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I was at a public meeting yesterday evening at which a lot of people ranted, largely fuelled by an entirely reasonable sense of grievance. Will they have changed anything? I suspect not.
Leadership is about doing something and getting other people to do things, not about saying things.
Amen, Amen, thrice Amen!
Meetings generate far more hot air than action. I don't go to them any more. If folk want me to do things they ask me, then I do. Cut out the hot air middle man!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What Boogie said. I, too, have given up meetings - no more PCC, Deanery Synod, or Deanery 'Task Force' (don't ask....)! Result - lowered stress levels, fewer migraines, and more time to spend on family, pastoral work, arranging our non-Eucharistic services, chatting to peeps in our Community Centre café etc. etc. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Our small urban set-up seems to be experiencing quiet growth, not only in numbers at Sunday Mass, but also in peeps' personal faith. Perhaps the future for some churches, at least, lies in simply following Our Lord's commands to 'Do this in remembrance of Me', and to 'baptise in the name etc.' i.e. celebrate the Sacraments, and let the Holy Spirit work as She wills......
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
Yes, but...
Not everybody - and not every leader - is an activist like that. Not everyone's first instinct is to go and do something. Some of us need time to stop, think, consult - even pray! - about an issue before we do something about it.
Yes, there are times when there is the need for urgent action, and people and leaders like me don't always cope so well then. But there are also times when just doing something isn't the best thing. And I think leadership must include that time and space to consider the options and try and work out what's the best thing to do.
Now, granted, a lot of meetings within churches do contain a lot of hot air and waffle (and, IME, irrelevant chit-chat that could just as easily happen outside of the meeting). We could almost certainly cut down on the number of meetings, and/or the length of meetings, in order to do more useful stuff. But if we never meet and discuss things with each other in a useful way, if we're so busy doing stuff that we never ask each other (and God, if you're that way inclined) "what are we doing and why", then you end up doing something because something needs doing, without ever asking whether it's the right or best thing to do.
TL,DR: too many pointless meetings are rubbish. But "just doing" without thinking about isn't much better.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gamaliel
There's no question as to the kind of era we're living in. The question is what can or should be done about it.
This ad was apparently unsuitable for the cinemas, but it's an attractive resource that's contributed to an ongoing conversation, and therefore I think it's worthwhile. But I agree that it's not going to change the world.
And isn't that the point Svitlana - time to stop looking for the instant silver bullet that will change the world overnight and recognise that the way to reawaken faith in a community is as it's ever been - commitment, dedication, prayer, and being brave enough to have conversations with people about following Christ. I've already had some conversations with atheists this week on the back of the news reports about the Lord's prayer. I also commend the CofE for taking the view that no area of society should be off-limits for Christian influence.
There's nothing so special about the media that the church shouldn't be represented there. It's an area of society that needs to experience redemption as much as businesses, communities, education and any other strata of our complex modern society you care to mention.
I've no doubt the CofE will learn valuable lessons from this experience. Hats off to them for the opportunities they have created for Christians in the UK to share their faith.
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'
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I generally think that committees and boring meetings are there as a buffer against the natural inclinations of rioting.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In some African places (I've especially seen it in Malawi), after a bus leaves town it stops and everyone is required to pray. The way this is done often struck me as rather aggressive. I've also wondered more than once if there is a relation with the driving skills of the guy behind the wheel.
Reminds me of the dear Pentecostal brother who quoted the verse from the false ending to Mark regarding "deadly poisons" when saying grace when I cooked for him ....
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
... recognise that the way to reawaken faith in a community is as it's ever been - commitment, dedication, prayer, ...
Very interesting post, but the phrase 'reawaken faith' struck me particularly. My opinion of course is that for one to have faith in something one needs to have access to evidence that the items in which one is supposed to have faith actually exist.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I fear that your understanding of faith is mistaken. If you have evidence- of the positivistic scientific kind which I suspect you mean- then in a sense faith is redundant.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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