homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Banning the Lord's Prayer - daft, illegal, or sinister? (Page 5)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Banning the Lord's Prayer - daft, illegal, or sinister?
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Many church leaders start out as radical visionaries with fire in their bellies but get worn down over years of dealing with the petty minutiae of church life, pacifying the folk who have become "upset" by something that someone has said, and being horrified at the insular and small-minded perspectives of so many Christians. Can you really blame them if they end up losing their enthusiasm, going through the motions and serving the system?

Unfortunately, I think our way of being church has developed so as to attract the kinds of lay participants who might be described as 'insular and small-minded'.

[ 26. November 2015, 19:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Churches are bound to attract people who have various personality limitations. That is likely to include some with fear of the future, dislike of change, shyness, insularity and small-mindedness. I suppose a church could evict all those who were not pushy, adventurous, outgoing, a good advert, successful in this world, etc. I'm not convinced that sort of policy would be compatible with the values a Christian should hold.

I seem to remember someone saying that they that are healthy have no need of a physician.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Some work has been done on the personality types found in congregations, which has led to various interesting conclusions.

I suppose one of the challenges of church leadership is to understand the kinds of people you have in front of you and to work on targeting your message so it can reach and inspire them, rather than the congregation of your imagination. (But there's also a degree of honesty required in doing so: leaders need to be aware of how they might be required to change if congregations responded authentically to calls for transformation.)

Regarding personality types, I'm wondering what kind of person the Lord's Prayer ad was designed to appeal to. Touchy-feely types, to put it very crudely? How would it appeal to the average cinema-going ('Star Wars?') demographic?

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

 - Posted      Profile for SusanDoris   Author's homepage   Email SusanDoris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I fear that your understanding of faith is mistaken. If you have evidence- of the positivistic scientific kind which I suspect you mean- then in a sense faith is redundant.

Just so - which is why I am not exactly sure if I understand what you are saying.
There is nothing I have faith in which requires only faith

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551

 - Posted      Profile for Ramarius         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
... recognise that the way to reawaken faith in a community is as it's ever been - commitment, dedication, prayer, ...

Very interesting post, but the phrase 'reawaken faith' struck me particularly. My opinion of course is that for one to have faith in something one needs to have access to evidence that the items in which one is supposed to have faith actually exist.
And having repeatedly been presented with arguments and evidence you then need to engage with them. 😀
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed. Somme people just seem not to 'get' it, as others seem not to 'get', say, music or poetry.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Trying again:

Indeed. Some people just seem not to 'get' it, as others seem not to 'get', say, music or poetry, or (in my case) a worldview grounded in narrow scientific positivism.
But IME faith is not about lack of evidence as such; rather, it's trust in conclusions based on an interpretation of various pieces of qualitative experience, argument, and information passed on to me by other people.
But this is a tangent, I think.

[ 27. November 2015, 08:28: Message edited by: Albertus ]

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A tangent perhaps, but some interesting points.

The personality types thing is an interesting one and SvitlanaV2's question about what type of people the cinema ad was meant to appeal to is a good one.

I suspect that some Star Wars fans are 'touchy-feely' types ... all that talk about 'the Force' and so on ... so I'd imagine that lay behind some of the thinking here.

It looked to me that the key messages were:

- Inclusivity - all sorts of people, various races, walks of life etc.

- Arty-fartiness -- people in whishty-whishty gowns.

- Anytime, anywhere - train, car, street ...

And there will have been others besides but I've not watched the ad for a while ... but those are the key elements that communicated themselves to me.

Of course, it's not possible to cover all the bases and it's often the simplest ads - the non-award winning ones - which work the best. If you're Arkwrights Plumbing and Heating Supplies then your best message is probably, 'Arkwrights: For all your plumbing and heating components'.

The last thing you'd want would be arty camera angles and lush photography.

I was once involved with recruiting for and organising focus groups to consider - among other things - some ideas for a proposed advertising campaign for a national chain of tyre and exhaust-fitting outlets.

Among the options was a very clever, but far too touchy-feelly ad which tried to present the company as some kind of reliable 'friend' or comforting partner in your hour of motoring need.

The company was quite keen on that option but it bombed when tested on sample target audiences. They didn't want a message like that - what they wanted was details of where to go when their exhausts fell off or their tyres were knackered (or knackers were tired to quote John Cooper-Clarke?) ...

I suspect the CofE's ad agency would have tested the concepts and gone with this particular one as the result of feedback ... I'd be very surprised if they didn't.

Interestingly, some Baptists I know have told me that they thought the ad made church look 'wierd' ... I daresay they would prefer plain and simple to women wafting around in white gowns (as per one scene) ... but I suspect any kind of church service would potentially look 'wierd' in a cinema ad.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551

 - Posted      Profile for Ramarius         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Had some views as to what various Christians think about the ad. What about people who don't claim to believe - what have they been saying to us about it?

--------------------
'

Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Interestingly, some Baptists I know have told me that they thought the ad made church look 'wierd' ... I daresay they would prefer plain and simple to women wafting around in white gowns (as per one scene) ... but I suspect any kind of church service would potentially look 'weird' in a cinema ad.

Out of interest, do you know who those people in the white gowns were? Were they members of some monastic order?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002

 - Posted      Profile for The Intrepid Mrs S   Email The Intrepid Mrs S   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Last year Mr. S's food bank gave an Advent calendar to a small Muslim child.

Okay so far - but it was a Peppa Pig Advent calendar!

Neither she nor her mama had *any* problem with *any * of this, I'm glad to say!

--------------------
Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'

Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012  |  IP: Logged
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152

 - Posted      Profile for Garasu   Email Garasu   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually quite liked the advert. Weird website!

--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My daughter's studying Illustration and tells me there's a move away from social media among some of the industry gurus. They'll post their work on Instagram once a week but invite anyone who wants to discuss illustrative issues to meet them in various cafes or bars ... they mount 'guerilla' exhibitions and 'happenings' ... it's a bit of a throw-back to the '60s in that sense ...

Sounds like a throwback to la Belle Époque.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Interestingly, some Baptists I know have told me that they thought the ad made church look 'wierd' ... I daresay they would prefer plain and simple to women wafting around in white gowns (as per one scene) ... but I suspect any kind of church service would potentially look 'weird' in a cinema ad.

Out of interest, do you know who those people in the white gowns were? Were they members of some monastic order?
The just pray.uk site has some info on the various people in the ad:
quote:
The Community of St Anselm is made up of 36 young men and women from across the UK and around the world. They have become the first members of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s new monastic-inspired community at Lambeth Palace – a programme for Christians aged 20-35 to spend a year praying, studying ethics and theology, and serving the poorest in local communities.

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks for that.

The other thing I found interesting in the ad is that the children from the CofE school in Kilburn have all been taught or encouraged to pray palms up, rather than with hands together, as I was. In fact, no one in the ad is actually praying in the 'old-fashioned' style of Albrecht Durer's Praying Hands. Maybe that custom is dying a death. Or the CofE would like it to.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, I recognised Sam from our diocese (the mourner)
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't think I've ever seen anyone pray with hands together other than in primary schools.

I don't recollect ever seeing adult Anglicans pray that way ... I'm trying to think. Perhaps in my childhood ... late '60s/early '70s.

Despite the kneelers you still find in Anglican churches, you rarely see anyone using them to kneel on either.

Talking about the Lord's prayer, it occurs to me that I don't feel comfortable sitting to pray it in Anglican services these days ... I'd prefer to stand - perhaps that's Orthodox influence on me.

But then, in many parishes these days they remain seated for the Gospel reading too.

Is outrage ...

Interesting to hear that the people in white gowns were part of Welby's new neo-monastic community ... I'd assumed they were simply 'invented' for the purposes of the ad - to show some kind of diversity in worship styles ... but as has been observed upthread - there wasn't any overt happy-clappy styles shown either ... although there was a Gospel Choir.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone pray with hands together other than in primary schools.

I don't recollect ever seeing adult Anglicans pray that way ... I'm trying to think. Perhaps in my childhood ... late '60s/early '70s.


The other day I saw a couple, who looked Japanese, walk back from the communion rail with their palms clasped together like that. It made me think because I've never ever seen anyone walking like that.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@Ramarius, I'm not sure what un-churched or 'unbelievers' are saying about the ad itself - but it's caused a bit of a storm on social media ... with the most risible and noticeable comments coming from those who rail about the ad being banned but who clearly don't have the first idea about Christianity ...

You know the kind of thing. Indeed, there was a snap-shot from a social media exchange shared on another site (I can't find it now) in which some pretty dense people were railing about the banning and saying how the 'Lord's Prayer is ours, it belongs to this country ...'

When someone pointed out that it actually came from the Middle East the response was something like.

'No way. Of course it doesn't come from the bloody Middle East ...'

When it was pointed out that Christianity itself comes from the Middle East the response was along the following lines.

'Yeah, right. So if Christianity came from the Middle East, how come the Bible is written in English?'

[Ultra confused] [Eek!]

Ok - that represents one view, and thankfully (hopefully) a minority one ...

My suspicion would be that most people who aren't 'practising' Christians aren't really that bothered about the content of the ad - they might have an interest in the fact that it wasn't shown and the reasons why that might be - but as for the ad itself I would expect a range of reactions running the gamut from complete indifference to 'well, it looks nice and is well-made ...'

I think it was somewhere upthread that someone (perhaps it was you, Ramarius?) said that a non-Christian friend had found it rather moving.

I think some people might find it so.

To my mind, though, that neither justifies the expense nor makes the ad any better conceived than it actually is ...

I suspect had it been shown it wouldn't have caused much of a stir - certainly nowhere near as much of a stir as was caused by it's 'banning'.

Most people, I suspect, munching their pop-corn would have simply thought, 'Oh yeah, right, it's a churchy ad asking us to pray ... so what?'

Why should we expect to have any more impact than that?

I could see it working in tandem with other forms of contact/engagement ... say if it were on a CD given to enquirers with some background details, sample prayers, interviews and testimonies and so on ... but taken in isolation between an ad for Kia-ora and a trailer for the latest Bond movie, I don't see it having a great deal of impact whatsoever. If anything, it might smack of desperation ... 'They must be desperate to get bums on seats if they go to the expense of making and screening that ad ...'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Time was, back in the day, in my full-on charismatic days we went through a phase of going out and worshipping in the city centre - you know the stuff, clapping and dancing charismatic style - the singing in tongues gambit ...

For some reason there was this idea that if people saw us worshipping in that way the Holy Spirit would convict them and they'd fall down crying, 'Surely God is among you!' without the need for anyone to preach or give testimony ...

[Confused]

I was never comfortable with this approach and it didn't last long. Before long it was back to the usual street-preaching stuff and the sketch-boards and so on in what was then a more conventional evangelical street-witness style.

Indeed, I can remember some awkward moments when conservative evangelicals were doing their stuff with flip-boards and leaflets and so on and we came bouncing along and dancing up and down - queering their pitch. Not pretty.

I don't know what it is about some Christians, they seem to think that all they have to do is sing or pray in the street 'to be seen by men' (isn't there some kind of warning in the Gospels about that? [Biased] ) and lo and behold everyone will be convicted of their sin and fall on their knees in repentance.

We used to think we were doing a good job with all that bouncing around in the street and accosting passer's-by, trying to pray for people to be healed and so on ... I expect most people thought we were nutters.

There's a similar level of naivety (or desperation?) about this ad, I think. It's not been thought through properly. As if by screening an admittedly well-produced ad that, in and of itself, is going to influence more people to pray over the festive season than might otherwise be the case.

How the heck do you even begin to measure that?

At best, I think it would have served as some kind of 'brand reinforcement' - 'The Church of England. We're still here you know ...'

Any more than that?

Nah, sorry. Don't think so.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The other day I saw a couple, who looked Japanese, walk back from the communion rail with their palms clasped together like that. It made me think because I've never ever seen anyone walking like that.

Hands held palms together is normal at shinto shrines. Usually the worshipper will approach the shrine, bow, clap their hands together and then bow again with hands held palms together, and usually stand there for a short period, before a final bow and departure. Sometimes the worshipper will do this at the torii gate, and then proceed to walk to the shrine with hands together. Sometimes the worshipper will walk a short way from the shrine with hands held together.

Although most Christians in Japan avoid emulating practices from the shinto shrines in Church. Bowing, which is a universal sign of respect, being the only major exception. Although, many Japanese churches will incorporate the high regard for dead ancestors into church life - especially for All Souls.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ah well it is also possible that they were tourists and participating in the only way they knew..

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dunno what effect it might have had on cinema audiences, but surely no-one can be certain about the 'efficacy' of any form of witness. That doesn't mean that we should stop trying......

BTW, I think Gamaliel's suggestion of using the film on a DVD for enquirers/nurture courses or whatever is a Good Idea. We'd find such a DVD useful at Our Place, ISTM.

I.

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... For some reason there was this idea that if people saw us worshipping in that way the Holy Spirit would convict them and they'd fall down crying, 'Surely God is among you!' without the need for anyone to preach or give testimony ...

Many years ago, I encountered a group who I think were some sort of Exclusive Brethren preaching in the local market place where I then lived at about 7pm on a summer's evening. Apart from some pigeons and me (who happened to be walking though), the place was completely deserted.

I think they imagined that they were obeying some sort of command. As long as they proclaimed the message in the market place, the Lord would bring to them those that he wished to elect. If nobody responded, that merely confirmed their belief that the rest of the world's population were poor benighted sinners and more fool them.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've come across Exclusive Brethren types who do that sort of thing as well. I remember some doing it outside Ripon Cathedral while a service was in progress ...

On the efficacy or otherwise of evangelism ... yes, sure, I'd rather people did some form of evangelism rather than my way of not doing any ...

[Big Grin] [Biased]

So, on one level I sort of applaud the CofE for 'having a go' ... but I'm not particularly sanguine about how 'effective' the ad would have been if shown.

As someone who's worked in advertising and marketing to a certain extent I can be as cynical about that as I am about certain forms of evangelism.

I'm not sure I'd be quite as puritanical as some here - 'That money could have been given away to the poor ...' (hmmm ... who was it who said that originally? [Razz] ) but I do have reservations about it as best use of resources ...

I'm not saying that whatever churches produce should look slipshod, home-made and manky. The production values on this ad are very good indeed - it's not cringe-worthy in that respect.

I think it was SvitlanaV2, rather than myself, who came up with the CD idea. I happened to agree with her and thought that this would be a good idea.

The giving away of CDs is a bit old-hat now ... but I could see it working in the right context and with the right mix of material.

However, the key to evangelism, of course, is actually getting alongside people, getting involved and - as Eutychus reminds us - seeking to build the Kingdom. If that leads to people joining our churches then great. If it leads to people not joining our churches but benefitting in some way then that's great too as far as I'm concerned.

Ideally, it should be both but we don't live in an ideal world.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The ad was played in our church last Sunday, during the usual announcements. Nothing at all wrong with it, quite a lot good in fact, but I can see no reason why any cinema ought be compelled to screen it.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
'Compelled'?

Who is saying that cinemas ought to be 'compelled' to screen it?

I don't see anyone arguing for that here. Some people are saying that, all things being equal, the ad should have been shown, but no-one, as far as I can see, is saying that cinemas should be 'compelled' to show it.

[Confused]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools