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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Turkey shoots down Russian jet
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
This makes no sense at all rolyn. I can't even decipher whether you think destabilising Egypt was a good thing or a bad thing, or whether you think we are obligated to support a US intervention, or whether you think we should just leave the whole thing alone.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I don't know what I think either TT.
Sometimes I feel like converting to pacifism over this, you know doning a loin cloth and preaching peace in war torn places until someone assassinates me, the end which usually befalls active pacifists.
Die a warrior, die a pacifist or die sitting on the fence, at least with the first two options you get to take the courage of conviction with you.
[ 27. November 2015, 20:18: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
As far as the number of warnings possible in the time over Turkish territory (if that was where the aircraft was) then clearly the Turkish authorities issued those warnings as the Russian aircraft approached the Turkish border. It is common sense that unidentified on a course that will enter, or come close to, an nations airspace are challenged and warned, and if the response is inadequate that air defence measures are prepared. It is not reasonable to expect that the Turkish military would only issue a "you're in Turkish airspace" warning, a series of "you are approaching Turkish airspace, please change course" warnings while the aircraft are still a significant distance from the border is only logical. Even a course that would take the aircraft a few km south of the Turkish territory would warrant that sort of warning.
So, I'll have to say that part of the analysis is in error. So, only Physics 2, Turkey 0, Russia 0.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Am I wrong in assuming that the planes were shot down from the ground?
When we periodically hear about NATO planes being scrambled to intercept Russian "near" to NATO airspace, I guess there is little confusion about who exactly is being challenged and what the message is (you're getting too close, bozo, change course).
But if you are flying fast in a warzone, someone challenges you in a language you don't understand from the ground about an territorial incursion you don't believe you are doing or about to do - I think it is possible that such messages were not considered to be serious threats.
So it seems to me that they both could be telling the truth: Turkey may well have warned the Russian planes, the Russians may not have noticed or considered them to be real threats.
Or they all could be spinning what happened for their national audience, of course.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But if you are flying fast in a warzone, someone challenges you in a language you don't understand from the ground about an territorial incursion you don't believe you are doing or about to do - I think it is possible that such messages were not considered to be serious threats.
The recordings released by Turkey are in English, which is the international language of aviators. The Russian pilots should have been able to understand the clear instructions to turn south.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The recordings released by Turkey are in English, which is the international language of aviators. The Russian pilots should have been able to understand the clear instructions to turn south.
Ah OK, I hadn't heard them. Though, of course, the international language of aviators does not apply to the military.
Again, though, repeated warnings in the absence of visual contact of planes may have been ignored as not relevant (given the Russians have permission to be in Syria by the government etc).
I'm in no sense making excuses for the Russians, but these claims by Turkey seem pretty weak.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I also read (but cannot now find the link) that Turkey previously complained that it should have been allowed to enter very briefly Syrian airspace in its fight against Kurdish fighters.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Turkey is engaged in quadruple-think and winning on all fronts. Supplying, most profitably trading with and attacking the so-called IS/IS/IL-Daesh and the latter's enemies. Like Germany in the Boer War. The West in the Iraq-Iran War.
What will the ever more impotent, wounded Bear do? All of this over a man's father-in-law and son-in-law 1300 years ago. Ah well, that's more recent than Bronze and Iron Age Christianity.
When are we ALL going to realise it's a zero sum game? Before the 10,000 year deadline of evolution that is? Where no social metanarrative, no culture survives. No politics, no philosophy, no language and no, thank God, religion.
[ 28. November 2015, 12:08: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
When are we ALL going to realise it's a zero sum game? Before the 10,000 year deadline of evolution that is? Where no social metanarrative, no culture survives. No politics, no philosophy, no language and no, thank God, religion.
....no more death, on more sorrow, no more weeping ?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It could happen TODAY if we wanted.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Martin, I think rolyn's onto something. I've been wondering today before this exchange whether your views don't in fact amount to Dominionism, the "Kingdom Now" end.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The deuce?! I thought we understood each other! Stroll on man, how could you think that? How have I implied that?
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Love wins
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well the only way I can see "us" doing it "today" is if "we" all suddenly convert, which seems a bit millenialist to me.
If it happens, then hallelujah, but if not, well then I think we have to be prepared to get our hands dirty.
The modern world's way out of the paradox of a legitimate use of violence is the nation state. I don't like the recourse to force here but politically, I don't see a realistic solution without it. Trying to implement a better solution in God's name usually seems to end up with even more violence.
[ 28. November 2015, 18:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
No question it was the CIA.
I'm inclined to agree Martin. Guess most who did so in the past no longer have the energy to thrash heads against table-tops in anti-US rant. Good friends to us when Europe was in a mess, now we must do likewise over the Middle East. ...
Sorry. Which particular conspiracy theory is this? Is it being alleged that the CIA orchestrated the bomb attacks in Paris, shot down the Russian fighter, is funding the Daeth, or all three, or some different bizarrity?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No Enoch. That's silliness. The CIA were behind the Arab spring. They can't help themselves. It's the American way. Egypt has been perfectly managed back to where it was DESPITE that fanatical thread of democratic idealism. Turkey is having it all ways, as it did in the Kuwait War, when it had cordial relations with Iraq whilst allowing the US the full use of Incirlik to bomb Iraq back to the stone age, and the West smiles benignly at our NATO ally, it STILL reckons Islamists are the best way of thwarting nuclear Russia. It ain't wrong. Of keeping each other busy. Our Way Of Life is assured. Happy days. My bet is that the C21st won't be an American and/or Chinese century, but a Turkic one. It'll be all right in ten thousand years.
Oh and F16 1 Sukhoi 24 0.
[ 28. November 2015, 22:52: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Enoch. Just lately I confess to suffering odd moments when I believe at some future date jihadi john may be found on a desert Island somewhere, quaffing Pina coladas with bin laden, and possibly even Elvis.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry, Su-24, you know, for symmetry.
And another late score: BGM-71 TOW 1 Mil Mi-8 0
The next escalation will be when Turkey can't resist flying over Syria, which they may well have done already, to find out how good S-400s are.
Hopefully Turkey has a long memory and will remember that Russia wins twice as often as it loses in the twelve wars they've fought.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As EVERYBODY knows Mossad (who run the CIA) did Paris.
You'll get a quarter of a million Google hits on 'mossad behind paris attacks', therefore it's true.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I've sometimes wished Mossad would go after Daesh, etc.
Besides the primary practical aspects, Israel would be saving Islam, Muslim countries, and individual Muslims.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
Just a note; none of the links I posted mentioned the CIA.
The first was the report of a retired USAF general claiming on Fox News that an attack of this kind (on the SU-24 which would have been over Turkey for seconds) must have been pre-planned.
The second was Putin's recent claim - actually expressed much more explicitly in the interview - that the Russians were in the practice of sending all flight plans to the American command (presumably to avoid incidents such as this) and that this provided the intelligence needed for Turkey to respond in the way it did.
I was not posting them because I necessarily agreed with them - merely because they indicate a level of rhetoric that is currently flying about [which I presume is what Enoch was asking about]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I was mocking the crackpots who see conspiracies everywhere. One of the things that goes with that, is projecting onto the CIA a belief that those in it are responsible for everything.
I was rather hoping and assuming that people had understood this.
[ 30. November 2015, 08:28: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah, but you're in the CIA ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeah, but you're in the CIA ...
What? I'd joke that I'd been rumbled, if I wasn't sure which shipmates can spot humour.
Or would denying it mean I must be admitting it? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
[ 30. November 2015, 19:04: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmmmmmm. Quadruple think! The CIA can't do that!
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Love wins
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