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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What on earth (or elsewhere) is the point of church?
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wish I could share your sunny optimism, Raptor Eye.
What I tend to see are people immersing themselves in church-life to the extent that they are so heavenly minded to be of little earthly use ...
Others becoming so earthly minded that they are of no heavenly use ...
Or the onus on keeping things afloat falling on the same people over and over again to the extent that they eventually buckle under the weight ...
Of course, things aren't as stark as I've painted them ... there's a balance somewhere ...
It seems to me that the purpose of observing behaviour in others is to help us to judge and temper ourselves. As you said, there's a balance somewhere - and that seems to apply to everything.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes - of course it applies to everything.
It's all about perspective. One person's exemplar of godliness and virtue is someone else's pietistic pain in the backside ...
My point is that - on the whole - I think there's an imbalance within most churches - of whatever tradition - to the extent that they are pre-occupied with their own services/meetings, own members and own structures/buildings and what-have-you to the extent that they hobble themselves in terms of their 'effectiveness' in the wider community.
I think that's what Eutychus is driving at with his 'Disneyland' analogy.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I don't know whether there is an imbalance within 'most' churches. Some, yes. Others do lots of community but little spirituality.
In the end, is it for us to migrate to where someone else will provide what we want, for us to step forward to provide what others want, or for us to allow God to help us to be balanced?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't know whether there is an imbalance within 'most' churches. Some, yes. Others do lots of community but little spirituality.
In the end, is it for us to migrate to where someone else will provide what we want, for us to step forward to provide what others want, or for us to allow God to help us to be balanced?
I don't think there can be a single right answer to that. There may be a time in one's life where one has nothing to give, and truly needs a safe place, and migration is called for. There may be other times when one is stable and really needs to pay forward what they've received. The hard thing is knowing when to do what, and to get off one's tuchus and act. Comfortable people, especially, can be slow to help others, unfortunately.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I tend to be wary of talk of God 'leading us' to this that, or the other church ...
Yes, I think that is indicative of a failure to take responsibility for our own actions as adults. We're not pigs with rings in our noses that God pulls around. We are his "rational sheep" (in the words of the Orthodox liturgy) and are responsible for making decisions and acting as free, unforced agents.
Flip Wilson played a character whose constant refrain, when caught doing something wrong, was "The Devil made me do it!" (Geraldine? I think that was the name of the character.)
We need to stop playing like we're babies, or like we're horses "who need bit and bridle before they will come near you." We're moral agents responsible and accountable for our actions. Infantalizing talk, and blaming our decisions on God or on the Devil, are an abdication of the responsibility that is ours alone.
As a matter of interest, how does this fit your Orthodox doctrine of synergia? If we're co-workers together with God (as Paul put it) seems to imply that God's part of the activity, not just standing aloof from our decisions. How's that work in your tradition?
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't know whether there is an imbalance within 'most' churches. Some, yes. Others do lots of community but little spirituality.
In the end, is it for us to migrate to where someone else will provide what we want, for us to step forward to provide what others want, or for us to allow God to help us to be balanced?
My spiritual director brings me back to four dimensions of service. He gets me think about service to God (which I will sacrifice anything for, pay the price for) to the church (stuff they ask me to do - I make decisions about what I respond to) to my ministry (which goes beyond my home church) and to people outside the church. There's no solid dividing line between the four - thinking about them just helps me sort my priorities out and keeps me asking the question "who on God's earth am I here to serve?"
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
To hone it a little further, my particular dilemma is having a side that is very sensitive to structure and appreciative of its role, and another which wants to cast structure aside as an impediment to the relationships that are the basis of all true human interaction.
Howzabout you focus on this for a mo'. Where does structure help you?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I wondered about the 'synergia' thing too, Truman White - and obviously, not being Orthodox and not being Mousethief, I shouldn't really try to answer a question you've posed to him.
However, as I was agreeing with the broad thrust of what I think he was saying, I will say something ... with the caveat that I don't pretend to understand the synergia thing in the same way that the Orthodox do - nor am I presuming to answer the question on Mousethief's behalf.
What I will say, though, is how I tend to view this sort of thing these days ... and yes, I've been influenced by the Orthodox to a considerable extent on this one ...
I'm not sure that synergia necessarily works in a 'conscious' way - nor that - on God's side - He's always micro-managing what we do ...
It's a bit like St Augustine's 'Love God and do what you like ...' thing ...
It's somewhat 'panentheist' ... God infusing and influencing things whether we are aware of it or not.
Now, it would be easy to topple over into a form of Deism - God as some kind of distant Divine Architect who sets the thing in motion, winds the clock, if you like - and then steps back.
I don't see it working like that, but neither do I believe the Almighty plans his day around what you or I or anyone else here thinks he ought to be doing ...
It seems to me that many (not all) evangelicals and charismatics are obsessed with issues of divine guidance and leading - and also tend to have a quick-fix mentality. Our local evangelical charismatic vicar seems inordinately pleased with the outcome of the Paris Climate Change summit because it will 'save millions of lives in the longer term' and some how make up for all the distressing media coverage of the 129 people killed in the recent terrorist attacks ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
It's as if he can't abide bad news or shit happening so has to latch onto good news to even things out ...
I'm pleased at the agreement too - but it'll take a lot of hard graft to implement anything practical and positive - and whilst it'd be great if it stops Bangladesh flooding and so on - it doesn't alter the fact that innocent people were mown down during a Friday night out.
Ok - that's probably not a brilliant example, but it's one I've come across recently.
I s'pose what I'm saying is that there isn't some kind of Mr Fix-it approach with miracles happening every 15 seconds and happy endings all ways round.
As I've often said on these Boards, it doesn't matter how wonderful the service/meeting was you still have to get up and go out to work, you still have to wash your socks and after you've had a dump you still have to wipe your arse.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Or to put it less crudely, 'Put your trust in God, but keep your powder dry ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
As a matter of interest, how does this fit your Orthodox doctrine of synergia? If we're co-workers together with God (as Paul put it) seems to imply that God's part of the activity, not just standing aloof from our decisions. How's that work in your tradition?
I'm not sure synergia is meant to apply to the decision of what church you go to, what car you buy, or whom you marry. The purpose of our synergia with God is our transformation. As St. Clive says, that other stuff is the raw material God works with, not the end product He is trying to bring about.
The largest part of synergia involves taking part in the sacraments (especially, once you're dunked, the eucharist and confession/absolution), and taking part in the life of the church, especially through its disciplines, especially fasting, prayers, and almsgiving.
But one wouldn't say "God is leading me to fast." Whether you fast or not is on your head.
Does this help, or have I missed your point, or clouded the issue?
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
To hone it a little further, my particular dilemma is having a side that is very sensitive to structure and appreciative of its role, and another which wants to cast structure aside as an impediment to the relationships that are the basis of all true human interaction. I am also increasingly suspicious of the claims of ecclesiastical structures to facilitate the work of God in creation; they seem to me primarily, and sometimes exclusively, to serve their own preservation. The more they perceive a threat, the more this is true.
How do others walk that line? I am asking both those who are ordained and those who aren't - either side of that line there are compromises and paradoxes to walk/live with.
Churches as we know them are hard work, but unfortunately it seems that trying to de-construct things and using an alternative set-up is even harder work. We live in an age when even churchgoers are reluctant to devote significant time and effort to church of any sort; but someone has to, or else Christian community and nurturing becomes a mere abstraction, or the result of chance meetings in Tesco.
Maybe one of the upcoming forms of 'alternative' will be Christians who openly offer themselves as spiritual 'agents', praying, pilgrimaging, evangelising, studying the Bible, and so on, devoting themselves to specifically religious activities on behalf of the vastly more numerous people who have little interest in doing these things themselves, but would like them to be done.
Vicarious religion isn't new, of course, but perhaps we need a new way of naming it, a new theology. It might help church people feel that what they're doing (i.e. the spiritual stuff as well as the social engagement) really matters beyond themselves; and a dialogue could be created with people outside the church, who could request not only prayers but other religious activities to be carried out with them in mind.
It's not Protestantism as we know it, though....
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... Maybe one of the upcoming forms of 'alternative' will be Christians who openly offer themselves as spiritual 'agents', praying, pilgrimaging, evangelising, studying the Bible, and so on, devoting themselves to specifically religious activities on behalf of the vastly more numerous people who have little interest in doing these things themselves, but would like them to be done.
Vicarious religion isn't new, of course, but perhaps we need a new way of naming it, a new theology. It might help church people feel that what they're doing (i.e. the spiritual stuff as well as the social engagement) really matters beyond themselves; and a dialogue could be created with people outside the church, who could request not only prayers but other religious activities to be carried out with them in mind.
It's not Protestantism as we know it, though....
Interesting idea, but I'm not convinced, Svitlana. Can we have someone do Christian faith on our behalf, fast so that we don't have to, pray so that we don't have to, go on pilgrimage so that we don't have to? How about having someone else to love my neighbour so that I don't have to? Be faithful to your spouse so that I can commit adultery against mine?
No. Sorry, that's a Fresh Expression too far.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
As a matter of interest, how does this fit your Orthodox doctrine of synergia? If we're co-workers together with God (as Paul put it) seems to imply that God's part of the activity, not just standing aloof from our decisions. How's that work in your tradition?
I'm not sure synergia is meant to apply to the decision of what church you go to, what car you buy, or whom you marry. The purpose of our synergia with God is our transformation. As St. Clive says, that other stuff is the raw material God works with, not the end product He is trying to bring about.
The largest part of synergia involves taking part in the sacraments (especially, once you're dunked, the eucharist and confession/absolution), and taking part in the life of the church, especially through its disciplines, especially fasting, prayers, and almsgiving.
But one wouldn't say "God is leading me to fast." Whether you fast or not is on your head.
Does this help, or have I missed your point, or clouded the issue?
Cheers mate. I get that synergia is about become Christlike. Maybe another angle will help what I'm thinking about. Some of the Fathers talk about the "inner flame" warming the heart towards God. Through constant communion you get to know how God feels about the choices you're making, and you get to appreciate what draws you closer to him and what cools your love. Looked at that way, we'r not thinking about some kind of mechanistic relationship where God downloads insructions to your spiritual sat-nav. Seems to be more about a getting to know what's good got you and what makes God smile.
Enlighten me further me ol' son.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I've never heard about warming of spiritual hearts, outside of Methodism. The way I've heard it spoken of is the unclouding of the "nous" which in Orthodox spirituality means something like "the spiritual inner eye" through which we see the Holy. Because of sin, death, trans fatty acids, etc., our nous is clouded and unable to see what is right. Part of theosis, then, is the cleansing of the nous. But I've not heard a connection between this and everyday decisions. It's meant to make you stop wanting to sin.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Thanks Mousethief, that's helpful.
I don't know whether Truman found it so, but I did.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
As an aside - and as an outsider - I have heard Orthodox priests and others speak warmly (ha ha) and approvingly of the Wesleyan 'warmth' - only with the kind of caveats that are implicit in Mousethief's response.
Those of us who come from warmly pietistic Western traditions have to be wary of 'reading' our own proclivities into what we see the Orthodox do -- and that cuts both ways. We can get the misapprehension that it's all 'dead', cold and formal - because they don't seem to be getting as excited about things as charismatics and Pentecostals - or else we can layer it with assumptions about mystical experiences in a somewhat vatic way ...
It strikes me that we have to uncouple ourselves from these sorts of assumptions to a certain extent if we are to 'get' what the Orthodox are about and what they mean by these things.
There are parallels with the Quaker approach - although we can't draw analogies and apparent similarities too closely. The Quaker belief in the 'inner light' and 'worship meetings for clearness' doesn't necessarily imply direct and vatic 'revelations' of whatever kind ... still less any sense of 'directive' prophecy and so on.
We're not talking about the Delphic Oracle.
No, it's an issue of sober, prayerful consideration.
Finding the 'mind of Christ' isn't about having goose-bumps or whishty-whashty feelings about what we think God might 'like' ... it's a question of aligning ourselves with what we read and understand from the scriptures, from tradition/Tradition (whichever we espouse) and a regular, systematic attempt to do what we believe to be right.
Would God 'prefer' me to be a merchant banker, say and earn loadsa money - providing I gave Him some every now and again as if He's hard up - or would he prefer me to work as a supermarket check-out operator?
Am I going to wake up morning to see the answer in words of blazing fire on my bedroom wall?
No, this isn't how I see this stuff working.
Apologies for the tangent ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
As a recent CVM contact uniquely honestly said, we talk well.
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Love wins
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As I've often said on these Boards, it doesn't matter how wonderful the service/meeting was you still have to get up and go out to work, you still have to wash your socks and after you've had a dump you still have to wipe your arse.
Buddhist teacher Jack Kornfield calls this "After the ecstasy, the laundry", and wrote a book by that title.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Perhaps I ought to write one called, 'You still have to wipe your arse' ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And every incontinent in all its meanings one else's.
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Love wins
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As I've often said on these Boards, it doesn't matter how wonderful the service/meeting was you still have to get up and go out to work, you still have to wash your socks and after you've had a dump you still have to wipe your arse.
Buddhist teacher Jack Kornfield calls this "After the ecstasy, the laundry", and wrote a book by that title.
I've heard it called the "Post-Spiritual-High Letdown Blues."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I've never heard about warming of spiritual hearts, outside of Methodism. The way I've heard it spoken of is the unclouding of the "nous" which in Orthodox spirituality means something like "the spiritual inner eye" through which we see the Holy. Because of sin, death, trans fatty acids, etc., our nous is clouded and unable to see what is right. Part of theosis, then, is the cleansing of the nous. But I've not heard a connection between this and everyday decisions. It's meant to make you stop wanting to sin.
I reckon this might be a bit of "both/and". St Theophan (the reclusive one) said "Learn to perform everything you do in such a way that it warms the heart instead of cooling it. Keep your inner stove always hot by reciting a short prayer, and watch over your feelings in case they dissipate this warmth."
So that sits well with your nous cleansing. St Dimitri of Rostov encourages the believer...
"To kindle in his heart such a divine love, to unite with God in an inseparable union of love... And the heart, set on fire, will warm the inner man, will enlighten and teach him, revealing to him all its unknown and hidden wisdom..."
Great stuff isn't it? Revealing hidden wisdom strikes me as being a basis for some good daily life choices.
St Theophan says more about the effect of the fire. "As soon as this warmth is kindled, your thoughts will settle, the inner atmosphere will become clear, the first emergence of both good and bad movements in the soul will become plainly apparent to you.... The Lord will come and shed his light on your understanding, to purify your emotions, to guide your actions... You accept all that is pleasing to God, while all that is sinful you reject. All your actions are conducted with a precise awareness of God's will regarding them."
Seems like whole of life stuff. The everyday decision bit isn't about asking the Guide what to do next. Seems more about aligning our desires with Christ's, (an inseparable union of love). Our everyday decisions are the overflow of that.
Last visit before some festival or other takes over. Enjoyed the chat Mr M - enjoy the quotes whatever you make of 'em.
TW
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm sure Mousethief is likely to be familiar either with those quotes or others like them, Truman.
I know you mean well, but it sounds to me here that you are trying to put MT straight about his own Tradition ... one that he is part of and involved/engaged in ... not one that he simply reads about online or in isolated quotes from this, that or the other Saint or Recluse ...
It'd be a bit like a Benedictine monk, say, posting on here telling you what charismatic evangelicals do or don't do or are supposed to believe.
Whose 'take' on the Orthodox position on this one am I likely to trust most? Yours or mine - as outsiders - or Mousethief's as someone who is involved from the inside?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I can see what you're getting at, that by cultivating the inner spiritual life - or flame - if you like - we learn to discern what best pleases the Almighty and align our lives accordingly ...
But that still doesn't necessarily imply some kind of sense of 'guidance' or minute by minute, day by day 'direction' ...
Can you see the difference I'm trying (struggling/) to highlight here?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Definitely your point Truman.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Gamaliel makes one very good point, or at least hints at it: Orthodoxy isn't a list of propositions to believe. It's a life lived in community within the Orthodox Church. We have the Two Great Dogmas (the Incarnation and the Trinity, as explicated in the Creed), and we have the Church (the fourth "I believe in" of the Creed). Everything else serves that.
I may not agree with everything my church teaches. I may not, for medical reasons, be able to keep the fasts just-so. But I am in a community that lives this life. We as a community celebrate the feasts and the fasts. We as a community worship. We as a community share our hopes and dreams in Christ, our grief for departed loved ones, our explosive joy at the Resurrection, our vegan chocolate cake recipes, our disgust with shrimp as Lent nears its end.
Not everything every saint says is Holy Writ. Not everything every saint says applies to every Orthodox Christian. You can find a saint saying just about anything (just as you can find myriad Bible verses to bolster any point you want to make). If you wanted to defend antisemitism from the saints, one of our absolute greats is right there with hunks of quotable quotes. You could similarly defend not acknowledging anybody else being a Christian who is not Orthodox. You could defend women not going to church whilst they're menstruating. You can find anything you want.
Just because a saint said something doesn't make it so. What matters is how that saint's words are absorbed into, and acted upon in, the community of faith. Which can be very subtle. And which is the point at which (if ever) that saint's words become relevant to our lives.
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Another meaning of "point" is a way of keeping score in a game. I hope nobody here thinks this is some kind of game that requires keeping score.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The very idea mousethief! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Love wins
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
If you're looking for analogies, the church is the wilderness which Israel was pitched into when she agreed to follow God. That was the negative example. The positive one, the one where the candidate responded well, was when Christ was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness. No murmuring at the lack of food and water there...
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
Excuse the back to back post, but this is more support for the view.
Another positive example is that of Abraham:
Genesis 22:12He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
God tests those who covenanted with Him to be His loyal followers.
The writen record of these precedents proved to be a boon to the early church, when they went through the same testing:
1 Petee 4:12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
1 Corinthians 10: 6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
None of us suffers for Christ. As for evil things, like what?
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Love wins
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
None of us suffers for Christ.
Speak for yourself.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
None of us suffers for Christ. As for evil things, like what?
See that's the problem. To get the full benefit of the information it's necessary to go through a conversion experience, a journey which those born Christian do not make.
Even those who go through a conversion have to experience the right conversion. I had a conversion experience, from nominal Buddhism to Christianity, and even though I did not then realise the implications, there was a transition from one state to another, so I could make comparisons.
Those born into Christianity don't have to make the transition, so the significance of the journey from Egypt to the Promised Land is not so obvious.
The period of residence in Egypt exposed Israel to the goals and methods of the world. They enjoyed cucumbers and garlic, sated their appetites, worked for food that never filled, led to hungering again. Working for treasure that perished isn't evil in itself, futile yes, but not evil. However, the way in which earthly treasures are gathered are often unethical. This is the common perception among Christians in the work place, the feeling that often times, they feel pressured to do unethical acts. It's not called unrighteous mammon without reason. This then is the cry to God, to rescue them from the oppression of Egypt, from being forced to sellout . They recognize that those made in the image of God are aliens, foreigners, sojourners in this world.
In Israel's case, the oppression was physical, not spiritual. God heard Israel and promised to take them to a country flowing with milk and honey, where they would live in houses they did not build, drink from wells that had not dug. All they had to do was to serve God, do the counterintuitive things, things that would mean loss and failure in thd world. Those with two coats should give one coat to the brother who was without. Seeking the Kingdom.
In return God would supply their needs. These were things people of the world chased after, but God knew that they were needed and would provide. The relationship was not employer/employee, linked by a wage contract, but father/children, linked by a blood tie, kinship, with the attendant benefits of provision and care that that relationship entailed.
The Covenant Israel agreed to was to accept God as their father, and God tested their loyalty by withodling food and water.
Whilst Christ understood that it was more important to seek God's revelation about why He did what He did, like Job ( man living by every word that proceeded forth from the mouth of God) Israel went ballistic, did a nutter.
That's that.
The information that further supports my view is related. Israel was chosen, even though she was the devil.
John 6:70Jesus replied, "Didn't I choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is the devil?
She craved the things she had in Egypt, the things she had to beg borrow or steal to get, futile things, food that never sated permanently, drink that quenched thirst temporarily, objects that satisfied passions momentarily.
More importantly, God's attention caused pride. The promise to Abraham gave them a feeling of entitlement, a sense of owning of privileges.
Remember that Christ was the Son of God, rightly entitled to status, privilige and protection from Him, on the basis of that kinship.
See His attitude to that position:
Matthew 4:5Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,
6and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,
‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’;
and
‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’”
7Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
A gratuitous display of His anointing would have demonstrated the power He had on tap, to turn on and off as He pleased, boosted His ego and confidence, had Jerusalem at His feet, roaring for His coronation as their promised King.
Instead, complete submission: He only spoke and did what God prompted. Insult Him with the sick puppet slander and He would take it as a compliment.
Now, let's examine the presumption of Israel, testing God, checking to see if their election "worked":
Numbers 14:44But they went up heedlessly to the ridge of the hill country; neither the ark of the covenant of the LORD nor Moses left the camp. 45Then the Amalekites and the Canaanites who lived in that hill country came down, and struck them and beat them down as far as Hormah.
Some people think their singling out is a sanction for fulfillment, they feel any action they take towards what God promised has His approval, forgetting that they must only speak the words God asks them to speak, do the works God wants them to do. In revealing their dependence, God is made more obvious as the source of the work:
The negative example:
Acts 5:9Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” 10And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
The positive example:
John 3: 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
2 Corinthians 12:9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting
Footwasher, stop posting extensive texts in addition to your own content. Please put quotes in appropriate format (visit the UBB practice thread in the Styx if needs be) and don't post content from elsewhere that is too long. People can follow links to longer texts if they wish.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It seems to me that many (not all) evangelicals and charismatics are obsessed with issues of divine guidance and leading - and also tend to have a quick-fix mentality. Our local evangelical charismatic vicar seems inordinately pleased with the outcome of the Paris Climate Change summit because it will 'save millions of lives in the longer term' and some how make up for all the distressing media coverage of the 129 people killed in the recent terrorist attacks ...
It's as if he can't abide bad news or shit happening so has to latch onto good news to even things out ...
I don't think it's a bad thing to look for a silver lining, but I suppose it's a question of personality. Everyone responds to these things differently, and that's the problem.
One way for the clergy to avoid rubbing people up the wrong way after these tragedies is to keep their comments very general, and in fact say very little at all. Praying for peace, for blessings on the innocent sufferers, and wisdom for leaders, etc., is what I'd normally expect in the churches I know.
quote:
I s'pose what I'm saying is that there isn't some kind of Mr Fix-it approach with miracles happening every 15 seconds and happy endings all ways round.
I don't think looking for something positive to come out of an awful situation is necessarily equivalent to looking for a 'happy ending'. It can be offensive, depending on how it's done, but when you consider that our whole religion is built on the supposedly positive outcomes of an appalling series of events it ill-behoves us to disapprove of the concept entirely.
Getting back on topic, we might ask ourselves if the church can ever be of any use when awful things are happening in the world. People have traditionally come together in groups for support when the world seems dangerous. Institutions are also useful when it comes to raising funds and material help. But in a society of very private people I think some mainstream churches are a bit uneasy with the first role, and often they don't have the resources to be as generous as they'd like regarding the second.
I know you've often complained about churches that take up too much of people's time. The advantage of MOTR churches is that you don't have too much pressure to get involved in things (unless there's a shortage of post holders). The downside is that if church folk spend little time with each other, they won't necessarily know each other very well, perhaps not well enough to feel involved with each other's lives even when a real need for closeness arises.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
What's the point of church?
To receive the Word of life, hearing it through Holy Scripture read and proclaimed, and feeding on it through the forms of bread and wine.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
OKayyyyyyyy. What about the other 167 hours of the week?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wondered about the 'synergia' thing too, Truman White - and obviously, not being Orthodox and not being Mousethief, I shouldn't really try to answer a question you've posed to him.
However, as I was agreeing with the broad thrust of what I think he was saying, I will say something ... with the caveat that I don't pretend to understand the synergia thing in the same way that the Orthodox do - nor am I presuming to answer the question on Mousethief's behalf.
What I will say, though, is how I tend to view this sort of thing these days ... and yes, I've been influenced by the Orthodox to a considerable extent on this one ...
I'm not sure that synergia necessarily works in a 'conscious' way - nor that - on God's side - He's always micro-managing what we do ...
It's a bit like St Augustine's 'Love God and do what you like ...' thing ...
It's somewhat 'panentheist' ... God infusing and influencing things whether we are aware of it or not.
Now, it would be easy to topple over into a form of Deism - God as some kind of distant Divine Architect who sets the thing in motion, winds the clock, if you like - and then steps back.
I don't see it working like that, but neither do I believe the Almighty plans his day around what you or I or anyone else here thinks he ought to be doing ...
It seems to me that many (not all) evangelicals and charismatics are obsessed with issues of divine guidance and leading - and also tend to have a quick-fix mentality. Our local evangelical charismatic vicar seems inordinately pleased with the outcome of the Paris Climate Change summit because it will 'save millions of lives in the longer term' and some how make up for all the distressing media coverage of the 129 people killed in the recent terrorist attacks ...
It's as if he can't abide bad news or shit happening so has to latch onto good news to even things out ...
I'm pleased at the agreement too - but it'll take a lot of hard graft to implement anything practical and positive - and whilst it'd be great if it stops Bangladesh flooding and so on - it doesn't alter the fact that innocent people were mown down during a Friday night out.
Ok - that's probably not a brilliant example, but it's one I've come across recently.
I s'pose what I'm saying is that there isn't some kind of Mr Fix-it approach with miracles happening every 15 seconds and happy endings all ways round.
As I've often said on these Boards, it doesn't matter how wonderful the service/meeting was you still have to get up and go out to work, you still have to wash your socks and after you've had a dump you still have to wipe your arse.
Gamaliel, I've started a new thread based on something you said above, here
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm glad you agree footwasher.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm glad you agree footwasher.
You are welcome. Forewarned is forearmed, eh?
Now, when you get it in the neck, you KNOW you have been converted.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But like you I don't get it in the neck for identifying as Christian. I get it lower down.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
But like you I don't get it in the neck for identifying as Christian. I get it lower down.
Different strokes for different folks?
John 15:19“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
[ 03. January 2016, 08:33: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The proctalgia, footwasher, isn't delivered by the world, but by Christianity.
No Christian is being persecuted ANYWHERE for loving Daesh.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The proctalgia, footwasher, isn't delivered by the world, but by Christianity.
No Christian is being persecuted ANYWHERE for loving Daesh.
I hope you are not implying that the persecution of Iraqi and Syrian Christians under ISIS is somehow not real unless they've made conscious acts of love towards ISIS and it's followers.
(Although there is this:Young Iraqi Christian Refugee Girl Forgives ISIS for Displacing Family)
The point of church is the salvation of souls. Everything it does must flow from that.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The proctalgia, footwasher, isn't delivered by the world, but by Christianity.
No Christian is being persecuted ANYWHERE for loving Daesh.
Identifying as a Christian as opposed to what? Saving a soul from what danger?
A careful examination of the sub text will reveal that Christ commended those who repented, meta noia-ed, from depending on the world. a futile-but with no visible alternative loyalty to its requirements, working, employing unethical methods for temporal food and other necessities, to working using righteous means, to save souls from this dependence on unrighteous mammon, and in the process storing up eternal wealth, seeking the Kingdom of God, receiving eternal rewards while receiving temporal provision supernaturally.
This is an offensive worldview, leading to persecution from the world, even family members, even from so called Christians who have not understood the Gospel, the Good News that, in Christ, that alternative is now a viable one.
Again, it's really offensive, the idea that the world is not your natural habitat, that the image of God in us demands we have a nobler dwelling place, that we are sojourners, aliens, foreigners in this environment that requires compromise, requires violence to survive, but delivers wealth which perishes. The futility of it all is dsplayed in the pointless existence of the animal kingdom, where the strongest gain, through force, resources, power... that fade away.
The Christian lays down his life for his brother, a seemingly counterintutive act, but he still prospers. Love does win.
That is the Gospel:
in Christ the self-sacrificial life is now a viable one (1 Corinthians 15:4 and parallels- a seed cannot grow unless it dies).
[ 05. January 2016, 10:57: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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