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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:


Meanwhile, I dropped in to opine that I accept the afterlife as Jesus mentions it, but I find its potential non-existence rather more motivating. What if my mortal life is my one shot at participating in goodness, love, justice and truth - 'eternal life' perhaps - and when I die I am dust, and forgotten? Then the pressure is on to waste no time in not participating...

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Meanwhile, I dropped in to opine that I accept the afterlife as Jesus mentions it, but I find its potential non-existence rather more motivating. What if my mortal life is my one shot at participating in goodness, love, justice and truth - 'eternal life' perhaps - and when I die I am dust, and forgotten? Then the pressure is on to waste no time in not participating...

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
One of the great distractions of too much of Christianity is obsession with where we'll spend eternity and who is (or isn't) going to heaven, as if that's all that matters.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
This is "This is crap but I'll tell a story of the shit that smelt of roses and somehow that makes this shit smell less bad". To put it another way, what's the archetypal theme that the fiction is referencing? I don't get it.

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Well, firstly it isn't shit. It's death and death is perfectly natural and necessary. But when the one you have lost dies you are filled with grief, even with pets. To imagine that they 'carry on' somehow and you will one day somehow see them again is a comforting imagining. To picture them running free from pain etc is too. It helps bring back the memories of times when they did.

How is this any different from the Christian hope of life eternal?

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Originally posted by hatless:
I have remembered my care for two pet rats, which is something that gave their lives meaning.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

I can't draw any encouragement from the Gospel - especially not in the face of death - if it's just a story.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by hatless:
I have remembered my care for two pet rats, which is something that gave their lives meaning.

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Um, do you mean to say their worth was derived from those around them and not themselves? That sounds worryingly like Hell, which as Sartre reminds us, "is other people" (in Les jeux sont faits, there are no mirrors in Hell, you have to rely on what others say about you).

OK, no man (or rat) is an island, but we have a self too.

And I know we've been here before, but I still wonder what meaning there can be to the Incarnation if there wasn't an Ascension and with it the promise of an eschaton, followed by a new heaven and a new earth.

I put it to you again that remembrance is nothing if there is no "till he comes".

I can't draw any encouragement from the Gospel - especially not in the face of death - if it's just a story.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

How literally true various Bible "stories" are is probably a Dead Horse, but unlike LOTR they certainly make a claim to be pointing to a truth outside the narrative structure.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
As oft-posted before, I mean that I personally can't find a way to make sense of Christianity unless Jesus actually rose physically from the dead. It's rooted in a claim that something objectively happened at a point in history.

I realise others may differ, but as far as I'm concerned the moral teachings of Christianity make no sense unless the resurrection actually happened.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I can't make out whether you are agreeing with me, or happy that I allow others to differ.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
As you say, I'm probably asking for too much. This is my problem with church in general; wanting what it can't give. The problem then is that church begins to seem a bit optional. If vagueness is what the church does best, why do we need the church?

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[G]ive, we beseech You, eternal rest to the soul of Your departed servant, in a place of brightness, in a place of verdure, in a place of repose, from whence all pain, sorrow, and sighing, have fled away....

May our gracious and merciful Lord ... establish the soul of His departed servant in the mansions of the righteous; give rest in the bosom of Abraham, and number his soul among the just, and have mercy upon us and save us.

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In response to the OP, I think people just have to grieve in their own way. I often 'talk' to my mother, who died this year. Maybe it doesn't make much sense, but what does?

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have thought that I may be too jaded (or damaged/deformed in spirit) to feel presence, whether God, JC, HS or any one else. Just hold to the path and operate 'as if' seems best. Honour the memory and the afterlife, whatever it is/isn't will be just fine at the appropriate time.

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Originally posted by hatless:
So when they die, how much changes?

It turns out that not so much does. We may (I think it depends in part on us, so I say may) continue to feel their warmth, their nurturing, their understanding, their pride, their hopes, even their guidance, and certainly their comfort, closeness and presence.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The argument that cemetery owners and funeral directors make, when the family suggests scattering Grandma's ashes in the ocean or whatever, is that you cannot then visit the spot. This is also the argument against burying Gran in the back yard -- suppose your neighborhood is redeveloped in 15 years and the entire district becomes a shopping mall? Whereas cemeteries are usually protected, and (in the US) cannot be built over and turned into a hotel.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
[I]n the past the religious rituals for the dead were focused on the soul of the person who had died and transition of that soul into what lies beyond.

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By "in the past" do you mean within Christianity, or are you talking of pre-Christian peoples? Can you point to any sources for that? In the Reformed tradition that view (the some sort of religious ritual is needed to help "transition" the soul to the next life) is explicitly repudiated.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Yes, I'm struck by the idea that we die twice, once when we die and once when the last person who remembers us dies.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, but you're not comforted directly by the thought that Cinderella lived happily ever after; rather by the more abstract concept that things work our alright and the bad people get their comeuppance (whether that's actually true or not is not the point here, to the child it is).

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Originally posted by hatless:
We have a self, you say, but where is it? Not inside your head, I suggest. It's a dynamic thing, more a phenomenon than a thing, and it has its being in the relational space between us and others.

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Originally posted by hatless:
We have a self, you say, but where is it? Not inside your head, I suggest. It's a dynamic thing, more a phenomenon than a thing, and it has its being in the relational space between us and others.

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I struggle to make much of the ascension, although I have a lot of time for Luke generally. I'm happy with one rising for Jesus.

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One Bible scholar I know puts it this way: "Luke resurrected Jesus so thoroughly, he had to ascend him"

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And I think we're wrong to understand eschatology as being about the end of history or the world. It's about the renewal or redemption of the world, this world. We can't literally postpone redemption. It has to be about now, even if our stories talk about the future and the past.

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And no story is just a story.

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Originally posted by hatless:
I don't think Sartre reminds us that hell is other people. He claims that, and I disagree.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It can cause problems, though, there are issues in Greece, particularly in Athens and Thessaloniki, where they're running out of space for graves. It costs money to keep them there and there are time-share style arrangements - and when space is running out and people can't afford the payments they exhume people and put the bones in ossuaries ... eventually most Athenians seem to end up in some kind of giant bone-yard.

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Originally posted by hatless:
Bakhtin writes: A person has no internal sovereign territory, he is wholly and always on the boundary .. I cannot become myself without another; I must find myself in another by finding another in myself.

Pretty good for a Soviet philosopher?

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Going back to the 'till he comes' thing, Bonhoeffer talked about who Jesus Christ is for us . The existence of Jesus Christ today depends on him being in relationship with us.

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[emphasis mine]
We have to be open to him as someone with intentions and purpose for us. So it makes sense, indeed is necessary, to talk about Jesus as someone with a future that is involved with our future. Not us passively waiting for his return, but us understanding him as someone who continues to be passionate about us and our neighbours.

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Originally posted by hatless:
A dialogical view says that the self is formed in the act of relating to others. We are somebody, because we relate to others.

Bakhtin writes: A person has no internal sovereign territory, he is wholly and always on the boundary .. I cannot become myself without another; I must find myself in another by finding another in myself.

Pretty good for a Soviet philosopher?

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Originally posted by Demas:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
One of the great distractions of too much of Christianity is obsession with where we'll spend eternity and who is (or isn't) going to heaven, as if that's all that matters.

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If I believed in hell then I think I would be forced to conclude that that was indeed all that matters!

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

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Originally posted by hatless:
A dialogical view says that the self is formed in the act of relating to others. We are somebody, because we relate to others.

Bakhtin writes: A person has no internal sovereign territory, he is wholly and always on the boundary .. I cannot become myself without another; I must find myself in another by finding another in myself.

Pretty good for a Soviet philosopher?

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Bakhtin was I believe at very least influenced by Russian Orthodox theology. (He was accused of participating in the underground Russian Orthodox Church, though he denied it.)

The problem though is that in order to have a dialogical relationship with the Other, the Other must be more than just one's own construction of them. It's not clear to me to what extent a non-realist view of relationship to the dead can provide something that isn't a construction. (I believe a problem that often strikes the grieving.)

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
At any rate, I would certainly say the exact opposite. I don't think funerals are "for" the person who died. The person who has died is dead. Either they are in a better place, or they are worm food. Either way, whatever we do or don't do here on earth can't be of much consequence to them one way or the other. Their soul is with God, and God will sort that out with or without anything that happens at the funeral.

The funeral is precisely for those left behind. That is it's primary-- it's only-- purpose. To provide comfort, pastoral care, and hope for the ones left behind. To stand with them in their grieving.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
By "in the past" do you mean within Christianity, or are you talking of pre-Christian peoples? Can you point to any sources for that? In the Reformed tradition that view (the some sort of religious ritual is needed to help "transition" the soul to the next life) is explicitly repudiated.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
From the Reformed perspective, the primary purpose of the funeral, as with all services of worship, is to praise God and proclaim the Gospel. In the funeral context, this serves numerous purposes—to mark and give thanks for the life of the one who has died and to "claim" (best word I can think of right now) the promises of the Gospel for him or her, to comfort the bereaved, to encourage the church, etc.

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Of Buryall

The corps is reverently brought to the grave, accompanied with the Congregation, without any further ceremonies; which being buryed, the Minister, if he be present, and required, goeth to the Church, if it be not farre of, and maketh some comfortable exhortation to the people, touching death and resurrection.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Athos is one thing, Mousethief, Athens and Thessaloniki another ...

As far as I understand it, there isn't that much of an issue in rural Greece because they have space to accommodate the bones - but in Athens and Thessaloniki - which is where most Greek people live - there are pressures on space - and, with the current state of things in Greece, pressures on the purse.

I accept the point about Western squeamishness, but there are stories coming out of Greece of unmarked pauper's graves on scrubland, and even of bodies dumped because people can't afford the cemetery fees.

I don't say this as some kind of 'attack' on Orthodoxy and its general opposition to cremation ... but there is an issue for many Greek people in terms of both space and finance.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
If the grave is important only to keep the person's memory alive by way of having "something to visit", wouldn't a memorial plaque serve the same purpose? Placed on a stained glass window in a church-- or a bookshelf in a library-- or a swing set in a children's playground. Whatever is meaningful and seems to resonate with the person who has died.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Hmmm. I don't know that I'd quite say that. Yes, the Reformed did indeed repudiate prayers for the dead, largely because they/we rejected the idea of purgatory. But I'm not sure that the Reformed tradition insists that the primary purpose of the funeral is to provide comfort to the bereaved. (And doesn't it provide some comfort to continue to pray for loved ones?)

From the Reformed perspective, the primary purpose of the funeral, as with all services of worship, is to praise God and proclaim the Gospel. In the funeral context, this serves numerous purposes—to mark and give thanks for the life of the one who has died and to "claim" (best word I can think of right now) the promises of the Gospel for him or her, to comfort the bereaved, to encourage the church, etc. But as with any service, from a Reformed understanding the primary purposes is to praise God for what God has done.

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you are so right. I'm retreating now to do my penance: 2 hours of remedial reading from Calvin's Institutes.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm retreating now to do my penance: 2 hours of remedial reading from Calvin's Institutes.

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm retreating now to do my penance: 2 hours of remedial reading from Calvin's Institutes.

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Surely no sin short of murder would be so heinous as to require such a penance?

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When I was first dating my dear husband, he was doing his daily devotions (voluntarily!) out of the Institutes-- in Latin.

To this day, I consider it a marvel that I continued to date him after learning that.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm retreating now to do my penance: 2 hours of remedial reading from Calvin's Institutes.

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Surely no sin short of murder would be so heinous as to require such a penance?

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When I was first dating my dear husband, he was doing his daily devotions (voluntarily!) out of the Institutes-- in Latin.

To this day, I consider it a marvel that I continued to date him after learning that.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm retreating now to do my penance: 2 hours of remedial reading from Calvin's Institutes.

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Surely no sin short of murder would be so heinous as to require such a penance?

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When I was first dating my dear husband, he was doing his daily devotions (voluntarily!) out of the Institutes-- in Latin.

To this day, I consider it a marvel that I continued to date him after learning that.

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Surely that absolved you from any need to turn to the Institutes as penance ever again! He's clearly banked ample penance for the both of you.

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Originally posted by HarryLime:
A couple of years ago there was a column in the Spectator (I can't remember who wrote it) where the author said that his habit in prayer was to have conversations with dead family and friends, as well as praying directly to God. I suspect that his habit is unorthodox, but I can see the appeal. I say this as someone who hasn't prayed for decades.

It seems to me that Christianity has to have something to say about the afterlife if it wants to be relevant. The moral code of Christianity is widely accepted. It's uncontroversial that we should love our neighbour as ourselves. It's our beginning and our end that Christianity can uniquely speak about, it seems to me.

When my mother died ten years ago I thought a lot about how to make sense of her life as a timespan. This will sound odd, but if she had simply expired, and no longer existed in any way, then her 20-year-old self was as proximate as her 70-year-old dying self, it seemed to me. I thought like this partly because I didn't want to always remember her in sickness, as she was at the end. I try to remember the whole life. She was only ill for a tiny bit of it, at the end. My father disagrees on this. He will always see my mother as that sick person, as if that was her final and permanent state of being.

Best of all, of course, would be to believe that she would be resurrected and enjoy eternal life.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know what to think, except that our mainstream churches probably have too little to say about the afterlife.

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