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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What is a sermon for?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In my experience, SvitlanaV2, people from 'sectarian' groups who can quote the Bible backwards still come out with 'strange things' ...
"Strange things" are not restricted to those unfamiliar with historical, credal orthodoxy and mainstream theology, such as cults and sects, or anti-clerical Protestants.
During all my years in the Brethren, I heard many "strange things" from speakers with more piety and imagination than education or sense of proportion, but I never heard anything as "strange" as the extremes of loony academic liberalism, such as Allegro's magic mushrooms or Thiering's Wicked Priest.
And without trying to be gratuitously offensive, as bizarre as some RC distinctives, such as Mariolatry, the papacy or Purgatory.
In fact, the only place you will find real balance is in the personal denomination which I am planning to found - I am still working on the admission price, but you can be sure it will be a bargain.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In my experience, SvitlanaV2, people from 'sectarian' groups who can quote the Bible backwards still come out with 'strange things' ...
Indeed, many of them are probably more likely to come out with 'strange things' than people with a lower level of biblical literacy ... why? Because largely they'll be proof-texting or coming at things left-field.
Yes, they're obviously going to sound strange to a well-educated Anglican or Methodist, but my point is that they'll be more or less on board according to the theology of their own church. The same seems less likely to be true for the average Anglican or Methodist. Indeed, I'm not sure if it's even expected.
Kaplan Corday said this above:
quote:
I had a conversation with a delightful young (they looked about 20) JW couple on my doorstep the other day, in which they offered to show me something from the Bible, which they then had great trouble in finding.
I eventually worked out that they were looking for John 3:16, and showed them where it was.
When you think about it, it's somewhat troubling that the average Methodist minister would probably have less confidence in allowing a random church member who's been a Christian for 50-odd years to speak on behalf of the church, while the JWs are willing to unleash on the public a couple of young people who probably haven't been members for more than a couple of years, and still can't easily find the biblical text they've been told to speak about! Yet the JWs still make converts...!
quote:
I have heard that a lot of Pentecostal converts in South America soon get disillusioned or else return to Roman Catholicism ... presumably pressing ice-packs to their foreheads as they do so ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
If the RCC gets to benefit from the returnees' new-found respect for their ancestral faith then it can hardly complain. For those who leave Pentecostalism and go nowhere, I suppose it would be interesting to compare the numbers with those who leave the RCC and do the same.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm all sermoned out I suppose. I spent 20 years in legalistic, Messianic, chiliastic, end-times expectation and even then often had to work at making what I heard work. I miss the ignorance of those days. I was still often blown away by the sermons. I have an all time favourite from The Feast of Tabernacles 20 years ago full of Anglo-Israelite post-apocalyptic triumph using the text of Land Of Hope And Glory.
There is no going back. The cult opened its mind and ... here I am. 20 years later. With 10 years in the CoE. Where I tried harder to make it work. But where the vast gulf between the rare best of what is said (preached, sermonized by allegedly educated men set apart) and the common worst of what is believed, as by my men's group tonight, is vertiginous.
So I find myself hankering for sacerdotal sacramentalism. I've done Easter twice in St. Paul's and once in St. Martin's Leicester cathedrals in recent years.
Wonderful.
Nearly as good as the Taizé at Leamington Parish Church nearly 10 years ago.
And I believe in neither priests nor sacraments.
I'm looking for strong, consistent, practical, irenic benevolence in Christian leadership lectures, i.e. sermons. Only Steve Chalke has that. Rob Bell and years before him John Polkinghorne have something else, something gobsmackingly excellent in its own more truly limited way (as talk is cheap). Christian intellect reaching for the stars from dust.
So here's the very best I heard in person last year, by a man who walks the talk, in language and with memes that cannot work for me but which are transcended; one does not have to work that hard at making this work at all: Prison Without Bars
The former terrorist with whom he fellowships is as good actually. Both men who's useless lives are completely redeemed. I mean the useless stuff. The choking, bitter, vile stuff. Turned to blessing.
I read this in a day: Prison Without Bars
I know one can't have this every week. Or Ted Talks of this quality: Emotional Hygiene - but that's a crying shame.
We need THIS and more and the exploration of it in sermons.
Well I do.
Ah well.
[ 12. January 2016, 23:05: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
Umpteen years in Seminary and now I learn this?
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According to the NPP (a phrase coined by Wright), Paul was not worried about where believers' souls would go after death. Christians of the late medieval period were worried about hell and felt they had to earn entry to heaven with works. This is the theology Martin Luther taught and wrote against, helping to ignite the Protestant Reformation.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/april/surprised-by-n-t-wright.html?start=8
I never though that the Bible would be speaking to this situation.
In the interview in Time Magazine Belle Ringer has linked us to, Tom Wright doesn't seem to me to be saying quite what you impliedly seem to be accusing him of. Yes, he has a different perception of salvation, heaven and hell from widespread misunderstandings of popular culture in the west since the Middle Ages. But I don't think he's saying the first 50 years' Christians weren't concerned about salvation or that they didn't believe it related to life in the resurrection and not just life in the here and now.
Page 4 of 8
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[edited by hosts]
Instead of teaching about souls being saved from hell, say Wright and others, Paul is centrally teaching about God's faithfulness to Israel.
According to the NPP (a phrase coined by Wright), Paul was not worried about where believers' souls would go after death. Christians of the late medieval period were worried about hell and felt they had to earn entry to heaven with works. This is the theology Martin Luther taught and wrote against, helping to ignite the Protestant Reformation.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/april/surprised-by-n-t-wright.html?start=4
Try this trick:
In Google search, type “n t wright claims church doctrine changed by early church fathers”.
Click the above link titled “Surprised By N T Wright” in the list of sites brought up by the search.
Go to Page 4!
Voila! or Bingo! as the case might be!
The article is better that the short TIME article, spanning 8 pages.
[ 13. January 2016, 06:07: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
footwasher, you have been warned before about overly long quotes from external sources.
This offence is compounded when those sources are from behind a paywall; the latter indicates a certain keenness on the part of their publishers to make people pay for the content and go after those who reproduce it without permission.
Whatever you think about the ethics of paywalls, do not reproduce unreasonably long excerpts of copyrighted material here, or indeed unreasonably long excerpts of anything.
We want to hear what shipmates have to say, not admire their ability to quote.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
I find the statement that lay speakers lack edifying words, words that give life, a little misrepresentative, or maybe premature would be a better word. The effort may not have been what was required: a little bit more effort perhaps, with a little bit more enlightenment about the process?
Can you unpack that a little bit? You start by saying that lay speakers can deliver life giving, edifying words. Then that they would benefit from more effort. Each of us, lay or ordained, could benefit from a bit more effort and receiving more enlightenment.
Let's assume that the participants are ordinary members, as SvitlanaV2 calls them. The effort I was talking about is, as mentioned by Baptistrain fan, the preparation for the discussion, mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14:26, which is an outworking of the stricture in the Gospels to ask for the Holy Spirit, pester the judge, harass the neighbour, for bread. Only then is the bread, the teaching or revelation, given. The information may not be strictly theological, as some discussions involved points of secular law, such as the principle of juvenile minority and immunity from prosecution as adults. In fact, the problem with formal theological training is that generational errors are perpetuated, and a sometimes misplaced sense of loyalty stops us from questioning those errors.
quote:
First, Scripture, 1 Corinthians 14:29 specifically prescribes lay participation.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Actually, it says exactly the opposite. First off, there's no suggestion that the prophets mentioned are ordained (even if there was any form of ordination in the Corinthian church at that time). Even if they are ordained, there is still the requirement that all others present carefully weigh what was said - that's hardly prescribing participation.
The process is offering up for critique what the holy Spirit revealed, which may not even bee theological, it may be a point of secular law. The critique is in the form of searching Scripture to see if it supports the revelation. So the participation is in this process, and producer and critic roles are swappable.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: quote:
Second, this isn't just group discussion, this is discussion with God in the equation.
Absolutely. As I said earlier, a church service is a form of dialogue between the congregation and God. That includes the sermon and any discussion between members of the congregation.
The church service in organic churches may be attended by just a group of three. The dialogue is between the producer with his revelation, and the critic with his test for the spirit(ual) origin of the revelation.
https://www.cmaresources.org/article/organic-church_n-cole_f-viola
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm looking for strong, consistent, practical, irenic benevolence in Christian leadership lectures, i.e. sermons. Only Steve Chalke has that. Rob Bell and years before him John Polkinghorne have something else, something gobsmackingly excellent in its own more truly limited way (as talk is cheap). Christian intellect reaching for the stars from dust.
So here's the very best I heard in person last year, by a man who walks the talk, in language and with memes that cannot work for me but which are transcended; one does not have to work that hard at making this work at all: Prison Without Bars
The former terrorist with whom he fellowships is as good actually. Both men who's useless lives are completely redeemed. I mean the useless stuff. The choking, bitter, vile stuff. Turned to blessing.
I read this in a day: Prison Without Bars
I know one can't have this every week. Or Ted Talks of this quality: Emotional Hygiene - but that's a crying shame.
We need THIS and more and the exploration of it in sermons.
It seems that inspiring stories, liberation theology and high oratorical skill (or however you might describe the mixture you're looking for) are always going to be a rare combination. Then again, the Church doesn't particularly try to find and nurture such a combination, does it?
The other problem, I suppose, is that individuals who have all of these advantages tend to be whisked away from ordinary church life sooner or later. They have some special mission to accomplish, so they're not likely to be readily available at your normal, local parish church to preach week after week.
[ 13. January 2016, 17:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It seems that inspiring stories, liberation theology and high oratorical skill (or however you might describe the mixture you're looking for) are always going to be a rare combination. Then again, the Church doesn't particularly try to find and nurture such a combination, does it?
The other problem, I suppose, is that individuals who have all of these advantages tend to be whisked away from ordinary church life sooner or later. They have some special mission to accomplish, so they're not likely to be readily available at your normal, local parish church to preach week after week.
Would that be because few achieve the required level of eloquence as few are capable of it, or as few are allowed to exercise it, I wonder? Lay people are called to preach too - with training and practice, might they not be readily available to do so?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
SvitlanaV2 - I'm being a spoilt brat. My cockeyed optimism has gone and I realise that there is no Christian leadership but we ourselves. Nobody knows nuthin. And that's OK.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Raptor Eye
We're not living in an age of pulpit 'eloquence', certainly not in the mainstream churches. There must be different cultural reasons for that. The decline of doctrinal certainty must be one. The loss of morale as Christianity becomes marginal to the culture is surely another.
Some say that if a lone popular entertainer on an empty stage can hold a rapt audience in his hand for an hour then it shouldn't be impossible for a trained preacher (lay or ordained) to do the same. But that's a whole different ballgame, isn't it?
Talking of entertainers, it might make an interesting reality TV show to send a bunch of ministers to a voice coach/speech writer/drama teacher, etc. to see what might be done to make their homilies more arresting. But the ministers would have to provide their own 'material' (though perhaps a famous theologian could provide them with a theme). Then of course, there'd be the matter of who would be the audience. Preaching to a specially invited congregation, or to a TV camera reaching 1000s of homes isn't the same as doing what you normally do for the 40-odd usual suspects down at Albert St. Methodist Church, or wherever. But it might be an instructive experience nevertheless!
Martin60
Yes. If you want something doing, you have to do it yourself. That's the long and short of it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Raptor Eye
We're not living in an age of pulpit 'eloquence', certainly not in the mainstream churches. There must be different cultural reasons for that. The decline of doctrinal certainty must be one. The loss of morale as Christianity becomes marginal to the culture is surely another.
Some say that if a lone popular entertainer on an empty stage can hold a rapt audience in his hand for an hour then it shouldn't be impossible for a trained preacher (lay or ordained) to do the same. But that's a whole different ballgame, isn't it?
Talking of entertainers, it might make an interesting reality TV show to send a bunch of ministers to a voice coach/speech writer/drama teacher, etc. to see what might be done to make their homilies more arresting. But the ministers would have to provide their own 'material' (though perhaps a famous theologian could provide them with a theme). Then of course, there'd be the matter of who would be the audience. Preaching to a specially invited congregation, or to a TV camera reaching 1000s of homes isn't the same as doing what you normally do for the 40-odd usual suspects down at Albert St. Methodist Church, or wherever. But it might be an instructive experience nevertheless!
Martin60
Yes. If you want something doing, you have to do it yourself. That's the long and short of it.
I'd like to see it done, Svitlana. it could be the way forward for preachers to learn more about delivery from the secular world, particularly now that some are brave enough to record their preaching for the church website. It brings us back to the op question - what is the sermon for? There's no point in talking if no-one is listening....
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Or stop wanting it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Talking of entertainers, it might make an interesting reality TV show to send a bunch of ministers to a voice coach/speech writer/drama teacher, etc. to see what might be done to make their homilies more arresting.
Not a reality show, I grant you, but it does happen (and he's not alone).
[ 13. January 2016, 21:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
SvitlanaV2 - I'm being a spoilt brat. My cockeyed optimism has gone and I realise that there is no Christian leadership but we ourselves. Nobody knows nuthin. And that's OK.
It seems to me that you're swimming more deeply in the water of faith, Martin, and so you can see that everyone else is doggy paddling too, some struggling more than others. It is OK. We're to love every one. We don't only learn from the learned, or from those we have compassion for, but we learn from them too.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Now you're just being kind Raptor Eye ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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