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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bacon Butties?
Macrina
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# 8807

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Our Church has started giving bacon sandwiches before the service to encourage people in.

What do you think of this and other gimmicks to 'get people in'?

This kind of approach really grates on me, probably because I'm a grumpy young woman so I'm sorry it's really not personal. I tend to think of truth as something so important that people will be drawn to it and seek it out for its own sake. I am allergic to attempts however well meaning to bribe me or try and dress up Christianity as something trendy and hip when it really isn't. When I say that I'm not saying it's fuddy duddy or irrelevant I'm saying that it has the potential to do something awesome with this world even if I don't believe in it and don't really think it's done much good overall in recent times. If it's supposed to be counter-cultural and the ultimate life changing truth about the universe and my eternal soul I shouldn't need to be offered a Bacon Buttie to want to know more about it.
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Gamaliel
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Mudfrog might be surprised to hear me agree with him to an extent on the sacramental aspect - in it's 'original' sense ... but probably not at all surprised if I introduced a few caveats alongside that ...

Whatever the case, though, the key word for me in the OP - and it's an aspect that both Macrina and Fletcher Christian have picked up on - is the term 'gimmicks'.

I have no issue with bacon butties in and of themselves, nor in churches offering hospitality or 'entertainment' in some way ...

Whatever our tradition or Tradition, most of us will do that in some form or other. Heck, I've heard that Greek Orthodox parishes in the US often use Greek 'cultural days' and festivals - with Greek food, dancing and so on ... as a form of outreach to their neighbours - even if it's simply to make them aware that they exist or to celebrate cultural diversity in some way.

No - the problem I have with any of this is if it's used in a 'gimmicky' kind of way.

As Mudfrog's contributed here, I hope he won't mind my citing the Salvation Army in this context ...

On one level, much of what Booth and his followers were doing in the late 19th century was pretty 'gimmicky' and they had a fair bit of stick for it ...

I'd suggest though, that it went 'deeper' than that (otherwise the Salvation Army mightn't have gained as much traction) and that whilst some of the more obviously 'gimmicky' aspects receded over time, the SA gradually developed ways of operating that arose quite naturally and 'authentically' from the communities they served.

So theirs was a case of opportunistic religious entrepreneurialism on the one hand - combined with something that struck a chord on a deeper level.

Plus, of course, the SA put their knees and their hands where their mouths were by scrubbing, cleaning, campaigning against social evils and so on ...

Now, I'm not suggesting that in all 'gimmicky' instances today there isn't something very real and authentic going on. With our parish church here the Big Breakfast thing - however much it's couched in super-spiritual language that sets my teeth on edge - has developed out of a very worthy and useful Job Club which helps long-term unemployed ... and has done so with some notable successes.

On one level it worries me that those who are drawn into the community that has developed around the Big Breakfast and the follow-up Alpha courses (the Big Breakfast is meant - on one level - to feed into the latter) are vulnerable people ... with low self-esteem or mental health problems.

These people can easily be manipulated and influenced in a highly-charged pietistic environment ...

However, for all my qualms, I can see that these people are benefiting in some way - they're being taken seriously, they're being valued ...

Are they being treated as real people rather than cannon-fodder for evangelical conversion? I think so ...

I find myself ambivalent, though, I must confess.

But context is everything ...

Nevertheless, I'm with Fletcher Christian in feeling some weariness with Messy This and Dumbed-Down That, with cakes and buns and three-legged races down church aisles (as my brother has seen, even in a so-called 'traditional' service) ...

Perhaps, as with most other things, there'll be an equilibrium established at some point ... but I must admit, I avoid anything labelled as a 'family service' or where there's likely to be puppets, balloons or ra-ra-rah.

Bah, humbug ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Kelly Alves

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(Crosspost-- referring to Macrina ) I guess that is something that needs explaining for me-- is it the serving of breakfast that is what people are calling "trendy"? Because I thought the butties themselves were pretty much traditional snack items.

As fot the idea of using food to bribe people-- I too, dislike agenda based bread breaking. Kyzyl rightly introduced the word " hospitality", as is proper-- if you are going to give food, just give it, and let God worry about the spiritual dividends.

Both of the churches I mentioned have their meals in an attempt to serve the community-- the fact that connections are made is simply the result of people treating each other like people. The first church did seem to have attracted locals into worship.The second church I talked about had only two dozen or so actual congregants; the influx at pancake time didn't result in a change in membership, but did reflect the kind of importance the church had to the community at large.

[ 02. January 2016, 09:56: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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ThunderBunk

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For me, the difference between a genuine innovation and a gimmick is in its origin and motivation. An innovation meets a need; a gimmick is just thrown out there as a demonstration that the people doing it are doing something new and/or are as "with it" as that lot next door or over the road.

I'm not saying that there has to be an outcry for bacon butties in order for them to avoid condemnation as a gimmick. I think I'm saying that, if they aren't achieving their presumed aim of establishing a connection with people who would not otherwise cross the threshold of the church, then something else is tried.

To go back to the point about fasting communion, however, innovations don't cause violence to the traditions of the community from which they are reaching out. Gimmicks can, because they are imposed on that community and its existing patterns rather than emerging from it and being offered from within it.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Gamaliel
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Yep - you've expressed the point I was trying to make more effectively than I did, ThunderBunk.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Chorister

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Llandaff Cathedral's early service ends with breakfast items, rather than just coffee and biscuits. I suspect it's not to get people in per se, but to give frazzled parents a reason to get to church in time for a 9am start, rather than still be sorting out breakfast at home. By 10am the kids are pretty hungry.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Ariel
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Isn't "butty" a regional term? Don't think I've ever heard them called that round here. Boringly, "sandwich" is the usual term.
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Gamaliel
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Yes, it is a regional term but it's spread across much of the UK in recent years - I suspect because of its alliterative quality with the two 'b's.

So you'll hear 'bacon butty' used in places where you'd never hear of a 'cheese butty' or a 'ham butty'.

Besides, Boogie, author of the OP is from the North West which is where the term 'butty' is quite standard for a sandwich.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Ricardus
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DON'T SAY THAT!

You'll stir up the Ship's ancient feud about how they are actually barms ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Kelly Alves

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I asked about this years ago-- the word came up in a Roddy Doyle book I was reading-- and was solemnly told by someone or other that a real butty needed the heels of a bread loaf and actual butter to be a proper butty.

(Ahem) I can see conversations of this nature fostering lively interactions at a community breakfast...

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Enoch
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What's the heel of a loaf? Is it a crust?

IMHO a bacon butty can be made with two slices of bread, but round here, the bacon preferably comes in a bap. I agree that it should have butter.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Kelly Alves

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Heel= crusty end of a sliced loaf. Two to each loaf. But this is turning into the tangent that ate Tokyo. [Hot and Hormonal]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Pomona
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Being a Coventrian, I am sad that the alliteration of bacon batches didn't take off like bacon butties did....

But ThunderBunk and Gamaliel have expressed things well. To use CUs (Christian Unions) as examples, using bacon sandwiches or text a toastie as cannon fodder for conversion works about as well as giving people copies of a Gospel book with no attempt to disciple or teach people as to what the significance of the words within that Gospel are. Also, giving the impression that God hates coeliacs! On the other hand, one of the nicest CUs I've visited had a group of local church elders and clergy who hosted students for lunch and became spiritual family for students far from home, because it was genuine outreach and not a gimmick.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Kelly Alves

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It occurs to me that, in some church circles, "outreach" has stopped meaning " reaching out" and now means "reeling in"...

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It occurs to me that, in some church circles, "outreach" has stopped meaning " reaching out" and now means "reeling in"...

Quotes file

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Firenze

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Heel= crusty end of a sliced loaf. Two to each loaf. But this is turning into the tangent that ate Tokyo. [Hot and Hormonal]

And deserving of its own thread.
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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Llandaff Cathedral's early service ends with breakfast items, rather than just coffee and biscuits. I suspect it's not to get people in per se, but to give frazzled parents a reason to get to church in time for a 9am start, rather than still be sorting out breakfast at home. By 10am the kids are pretty hungry.

And, for those parts of the Church who do not fast before Communion, providing breakfast before the service gets people into the building for the start of the service rather than sneaking in during the first hymn. The (potentially) offending butties in the OP may be about getting existing church people into the start of the service rather than getting people who never attend church through the door.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Alan Cresswell

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And, on the CU thing with bacon butties, the reason for students making bacon butties is that they are very easy to cook. Especially important when they are provided by students who may have access to only a single stove top. You can't bake cakes, or much else, without a proper kitchen which is (or, in my day was) absent from most student halls of residence. But, bacon butties - you can do that on camping stoves if needed.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mr cheesy
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At a church we used to attend, following the family service (at the time the church used to have 5 services on a Sunday), we all used to stay for some time eating breakfast together. It was a much more uplifting experience than the service.

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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What if rather than a gimmick to get people in, the eating together at the start were considered part of what Christianity is about, or at least symbolic thereof - you know, creating a community of people?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What if rather than a gimmick to get people in, the eating together at the start were considered part of what Christianity is about, or at least symbolic thereof - you know, creating a community of people?

Stop it, heathen. Next you'll be saying that the Kingdom of God is like a great celebratory feast.

Saying things like that is enough to one strung up, you know.

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arse

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Gamaliel
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Well, yes, Karl ... it could very well be that ... but even a worthy attempt of that kind could become gimmicky.

When does a 'gimmick' become something 'authentic' and part of the 'warp and woof' of what it means to be a community?

Time will tell ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Authentic could be if there was a movement within the congregation that they didn't do enough things as a community, such as eating meals together, and something like a pre-service breakfast is organised to meet that need.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Gamaliel
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Well yes, as in something that arises organically from within the congregation in response to a felt or identified need ...

Rather than, 'Let's lay on bacon butties because it seems to be the latest trendy, seeker-friendly thing to do and because it takes a lot less effort than actually thinking about what we are doing and why ...'

Which seems to be what is driving some of this sort of agenda at the moment ... of perhaps I'm just cynical ...

[Paranoid]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Alan Cresswell

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Cynicism isn't always misplaced.

But, on the very limited information available we can't really comment on the specifics. Personally I prefer to err on the generous rather than cynical side.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mr cheesy
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I don't think we have to sneer when churches "organically" attempt to increase the community feel of their congregations.

In the experience of church I mentioned above, this was most definitely led by members of the congregation for members of the congregation. Visitors wandering in (not very often given the time of day) were given breakfast like everyone else - including the odd homeless person looking for a bit of warmth for a couple of hours.

For some reason this always seemed to me to be more appropriate than when drunks would turn up for free coffee after services (intended to be for the congregation).

The former seemed to be part of the way the thing was run, the latter just seemed to be taking advantage. But then I suppose one could also say that church is supposed to be a place where drunk people take advantage of free coffee.. or something.

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arse

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Gamaliel
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@Alan Cresswell ... spoilsport ... [Big Grin]

Seriously, I can't comment on the example in the OP because I don't know the church nor the community it serves.

In general terms though, a few of us here, Fletcher Christian included, have picked up on a sense of unease at initiatives that could be considered gimmicky - or even exploitative.

I'd put it no stronger than that.

I certainly wouldn't lay down a carte-blanche cynical reaction ... I've not responded cynically to Kelly Alves's examples from inner-city areas in the US, for instance.

I mean ... I'm not THAT cynical ...

But I do reserve the right to be a tad suspicious of copy-cat initiatives by churches who might see this sort of thing as the 'next big thing' ...

I've lived through enough of those to develop a crust of cynicism to a certain extent ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Alan Cresswell

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The Church (or, parts thereof) does seem to take what is an organic, effective response to the local needs of a particular congregation in a particular situation to meet a particular need and turn it into something that will address the problems faced by all other churches in all other places.

I think it started as soon as people took the advice of Paul to particular situations as a universal edict to be enforced on all churches even when their circumstances didn't remotely match the original situation.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, on the CU thing with bacon butties, the reason for students making bacon butties is that they are very easy to cook. Especially important when they are provided by students who may have access to only a single stove top. You can't bake cakes, or much else, without a proper kitchen which is (or, in my day was) absent from most student halls of residence. But, bacon butties - you can do that on camping stoves if needed.

This isn't the case anymore. Most halls now have proper kitchens as few students are in catered halls (indeed some universities only have self-catering halls), usually only international students. Most halls nowadays are composed of flats built around a kitchen, more like a normal house. Also as multi-faith chaplaincies become more the norm, they are often built around kitchens too, not that CUs are likely to go near them because of the icky Muslims.

I totally understand the need for cheap food for outreach, but bacon sandwiches exclude rather too many groups. Something like handing out water bottles and flip flops after SU club nights is cheap and more universal.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Something like handing out water bottles and flip flops after SU club nights is cheap and more universal.

You're going to have to translate this one for me. There are more people that want crappy footwear than a bacon sandwich?
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mr cheesy
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Numerous "street pastors" (sometimes local groups use different names, but they appear to be basically run on the same lines) in towns across the UK work late night in areas where young people go out clubbing and getting drunk.

They very often take the form of handing out flipflops (women often oddly seem to go clubbing in inappropriate shoes, which get lost when they're drunk) and handing out water to rehydrate people who have consumed too much alcohol.

That said, I'd not really agree that the Street Pastor model was "outreach" in the evangelistic sense many people use it.

The feeling I'm getting from some who are involved is that it is a lot of effort (groups often stay out until 3-4am), involves a lot of older church people (and there are some worries about their safety) and has limited effect - in the evangelistic sense many are looking for.

Some are saying that this isn't what they signed up for.

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arse

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betjemaniac
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I like street pastor schemes and have read some quite impressive stuff about their work in late night city centres.

OTOH, from an evangelistic pov, IMO (and thinking back to when I was an undergraduate) CUs have got quite a bad/silly/weird enough reputation without thinking that the average student stumbling out of a club night is going to be inspired to join the bright eyed, earnest, sober ones hanging around with the water bottles.* The ones who are more likely to be inspired to join because of it are probably the ones that haven't gone out clubbing anyway...

*Nightline**, OTOH, seemed to have a great cross-section of people involved, from 1st XV rugby players, through party animals, to those focused entirely on getting their work done. Perhaps because it was anonymous, they were encouraged *not* to tell their friends they did it, and it didn't involve interacting with drunk peers face to face.

I may be entirely wrong, but I think CUs going down the street pastor route may be just about one of the least likely to work evangelistic efforts I can think of. As a public good, it would be entirely admirable, but I can't see it pulling in many new recruits.

**student version of the Samaritans

My student church*** didn't do bacon sandwiches (but then it practiced fasting before communion). On the other hand it dispensed liberal amounts of sherry to all-comers post mass (except in Trinity term when it was champagne), and had a weekly "state luncheon" with the preacher and the chapter to which undergraduates were invited in rotation. This worked very well, as did really going hard on recruiting the choir on the basis of varied mass settings rather than religious affiliation - it was remarkable how many people who turned up in year one for a bit of a sing were receiving the sacraments by year three!

***presumably fairly obvious from the following description which that was.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That said, I'd not really agree that the Street Pastor model was "outreach" in the evangelistic sense many people use it.

The feeling I'm getting from some who are involved is that it ... has limited effect - in the evangelistic sense many are looking for.

Some are saying that this isn't what they signed up for.

In that case the publicity for attracting volunteers is poorly devised. In our town it is made quite clear that being a Street Pastor is offering an act of Christian service to those who need it, and isn't primarily evangelistic. That's not to say that "spiritual" conversations might not develop, of course.

Perhaps this emphasis has come about because it has been a partnership between churches, Council and Police right from the start. The initial publicity seeking to recruit volunteers asks them to think through 11 questions, of which some are practical: "Can you walk up to 7 miles a night?"; "Can you stay with someone who is blind drunk for a couple of hours while they sober up?"; and "Can you tell when someone is just hustling you for a Freddo?".

The most "evangelistic" one is, "Are you prepared to respond to all questions non-dogmatically?"

[ 04. January 2016, 15:25: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:


Perhaps this emphasis has come about because it has been a partnership between churches, Council and Police right from the start. The publicity seeking to recruit volunteers asks 11 questions, of which some are practical: "Can you walk up to 7 miles a night?"; "Can you stay with someone who is blind drunk for a couple of hours while they sober up?"; and "Can you tell when someone is just hustling you for a Freddo?".

The most "evangelistic" one is, "Are you prepared to respond to all questions non-dogmatically?"

Oh I'm sure the groups are set up in the same way with the same kinds of partnership with police and other bodies. I'm sure participants are asked the same questions etc.

This is about perception rather than reality: whatever they're told, some still believe it is a subtle form of evangelism - even whilst it is clear that saying this "isn't what they signed up for" is not accurate - given what you've said above.

Sigh. It's a mess: some people I know think it is an evangelistic thing even having been told it isn't.

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arse

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Something like handing out water bottles and flip flops after SU club nights is cheap and more universal.

You're going to have to translate this one for me. There are more people that want crappy footwear than a bacon sandwich?
People are generally not allergic to or abstaining from flip flops for moral reasons, unlike gluten or pork. People (usually women) do want flat shoes after clubbing in heels, along with water.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I like street pastor schemes and have read some quite impressive stuff about their work in late night city centres.

OTOH, from an evangelistic pov, IMO (and thinking back to when I was an undergraduate) CUs have got quite a bad/silly/weird enough reputation without thinking that the average student stumbling out of a club night is going to be inspired to join the bright eyed, earnest, sober ones hanging around with the water bottles.* The ones who are more likely to be inspired to join because of it are probably the ones that haven't gone out clubbing anyway...

*Nightline**, OTOH, seemed to have a great cross-section of people involved, from 1st XV rugby players, through party animals, to those focused entirely on getting their work done. Perhaps because it was anonymous, they were encouraged *not* to tell their friends they did it, and it didn't involve interacting with drunk peers face to face.

I may be entirely wrong, but I think CUs going down the street pastor route may be just about one of the least likely to work evangelistic efforts I can think of. As a public good, it would be entirely admirable, but I can't see it pulling in many new recruits.

**student version of the Samaritans

My student church*** didn't do bacon sandwiches (but then it practiced fasting before communion). On the other hand it dispensed liberal amounts of sherry to all-comers post mass (except in Trinity term when it was champagne), and had a weekly "state luncheon" with the preacher and the chapter to which undergraduates were invited in rotation. This worked very well, as did really going hard on recruiting the choir on the basis of varied mass settings rather than religious affiliation - it was remarkable how many people who turned up in year one for a bit of a sing were receiving the sacraments by year three!

***presumably fairly obvious from the following description which that was.

The CU of my acquaintance that handed out water bottles and flip flops was doing it at least in part from a more service providing POV, but I see your point. Maybe it's working in the hospitality industry, but providing hot cooked food is just so liable to go wrong unless it's done with some degree of food hygiene knowledge and professionalism.

It may also just be me and tainted by past experience, but there is also a silly macho attitude amongst evangelicals towards vegetarianism and specialist diets. Bacon sandwiches are manly enough, non-meaty food is not. It sounds silly but I was told as a vegetarian in a previous church that Jesus would expect me to eat meat in Heaven (!) and it was seen as dangerous liberal nonsense.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Chorister

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Street Pastors also hand out lollipops (these again have a practical reason, as they can calm people down and diffuse a potentially violent situation).

About 10 years ago, the concept of Cafe Church, based around coffee and a snack, seemed to be a popular innovation of doing church. Has that continued, or was it merely of its time?

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
DON'T SAY THAT!

You'll stir up the Ship's ancient feud about how they are actually barms ...

It may be ancient, Ricardus, but it lives on in our hearts.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Ariel
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And indeed it does. Eleven years ago now but still remembered fondly.
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Street Pastors also hand out lollipops (these again have a practical reason, as they can calm people down and diffuse a potentially violent situation).

About 10 years ago, the concept of Cafe Church, based around coffee and a snack, seemed to be a popular innovation of doing church. Has that continued, or was it merely of its time?

Seems to be reasonably popular still.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, it is a regional term but it's spread across much of the UK in recent years - I suspect because of its alliterative quality with the two 'b's.

So you'll hear 'bacon butty' used in places where you'd never hear of a 'cheese butty' or a 'ham butty'.

Besides, Boogie, author of the OP is from the North West which is where the term 'butty' is quite standard for a sandwich.

I genuinely did not know this until a couple of years ago when a friend from north London was staying with me. We'd come home briefly for lunch in between activities on our day out, and I said I'd make us some quick butties before we headed out again.

He got all excited and said, 'Oooh, bacon butties!' When I explained that I didn't have any bacon in, and had planned to make us some cheese or jam butties, he looked confused.

To me, a butty was simply a sandwich, and that was just something that everyone knew, in the same way that everyone knows not to try to ride a bike with crossed legs. It doesn't require teaching - it's just something people know.

He, on the other hand, had never heard of a butty having anything on it other than bacon, despite having eaten many different types of butties before. This was very perplexing for me.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Boogie

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We had a narrowboat called Jamm Butty for many years. (JAMM being the first initials of our four names)

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Something like handing out water bottles and flip flops after SU club nights is cheap and more universal.

You're going to have to translate this one for me. There are more people that want crappy footwear than a bacon sandwich?
People are generally not allergic to or abstaining from flip flops for moral reasons, unlike gluten or pork. People (usually women) do want flat shoes after clubbing in heels, along with water.
There are of course people who have moral and ethical objections, on environmental grounds, to the manufacture of plastic bottles and the filling of them with water.
And to pick up a point you make later, I think it's arrogant and absurd to say that you will be expected to eat meat in heaven. But if we have reasonable grounds for believing any of the factual incidents that we come across in the Gospels, we have reasonable grounds for believing that Our Lord had no objection, per se, at least to the eating of fish- and He is on at least one occasion decsribed as eating fish Himself. So while one may have moral objections to all sorts of aspects of the ways in which meat and fish are produced and slaughtered in the modern world (and perhaps those objections are so strong and wide-ranging as to make vegetarianism or even veganism the most practical way of addressing them) I think that if we say that we think that it is the eating of meat (or at least fish) in itself that is wrong, we are in danger of applying a higher moral standard than Our Lord's- and I can't see how that can fail to be sinful.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think that if we say that we think that it is the eating of meat (or at least fish) in itself that is wrong, we are in danger of applying a higher moral standard than Our Lord's- and I can't see how that can fail to be sinful.

Vegetarianism is sinful? That's a new one on me!

(The thing at our Church has a veggie option btw)

Well, I enjoyed my bacon butty on Sunday, and it was a lovely pre-church atmosphere. Twiglet got excellent food ignoring training too!

I do think it's something of a gimmick - but I have seen far worse. The person who had the idea both supplies and cooks the bacon - so it wasn't a top-down thing at all.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
People are generally not allergic to or abstaining from flip flops for moral reasons, unlike gluten or pork. People (usually women) do want flat shoes after clubbing in heels, along with water.

Non-women are about half the population. Vegetarians, Jews, Muslims and the gluten-intolerant are rather less than half the population. Going by the numbers, that makes a bacon sandwich more universal than a flip-flop. [Snigger]

Perhaps more seriously, a bacon butty is something that a large number of pork-eaters would be pleased to be offered. You wouldn't get nearly such a positive reaction if you were handing out pop tarts, cornflakes, or kedgeree.
Sure, it also excludes people who don't want to eat bacon, but I'm not sure that there exists a more widely-acceptable foodstuff that would generate a similar level of pleasure in the recipients.

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Albertus
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Not the vegetarianism itself, Boogie; it depends on the reason for it. I think that for a Christian to believe that eating flesh is itself, in all circumstances and for everybody, inherently wrong (and I don't know how many vegetarians actually think that) is, if you work it out, placing your judgement of what is right and wrong above Our Lord's.

[ 04. January 2016, 19:41: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Perhaps more seriously, a bacon butty is something that a large number of pork-eaters would be pleased to be offered. You wouldn't get nearly such a positive reaction if you were handing out pop tarts, cornflakes, or kedgeree.
Sure, it also excludes people who don't want to eat bacon, but I'm not sure that there exists a more widely-acceptable foodstuff that would generate a similar level of pleasure in the recipients.

Well, there are others - but surprisingly enough it turns out you run into the same problem...
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Enoch
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Not eating meat isn't sinful. It has a long history as part of the discipline of fasting. However, believing that being vegetarian is either more virtuous than being omnivore, or will make one purer and more holy than one's omnivore neighbours is a serious error which is seriously bad for one's spiritual life. It's going back to seeing salvation in dietary terms which Jesus reverses at Mk 7:18-20 and which Paul spends so much time trying to wean his young converts away from.

It's OK to be vegetarian because one doesn't like meat, because one is fasting (though one should not fast on a feast day - that is to be ungrateful to God for his blessings), or even because it's cheaper. It isn't OK to be vegetarian because one believes it will make one a better person, because it won't.

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Pomona
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I'm not a vegetarian anymore (I can't eat beans or pulses, which makes it difficult, but I try and eat as little meat as possible).

Eating meat is a result of the Fall and was not permitted by God until Noah. Jesus occupied a body and lived in a time bearing the marks of the Fall in all sorts of ways (illness, unhappiness, ultimately death), and also in a fairly agrarian culture where meat was not intensively reared and most people ate a minimal amount of meat and fish alongside bread, other starches/grains, legumes, and olive oil. Jesus occasionally eating some fish is quite far from battery chickens and pigs in tiny sow stalls. It's not comparable to the situation today which persuades people to stop eating meat.

I don't think eating meat is a sin, but I also don't think it should be seen as a sin to think it's a good and compassionate and environmentally-friendly thing to not eat meat. I personally think, based on Ezekiel and Revelation, that a return to a state of grace means a return to not eating meat. To me that indicates that humanity as a whole being vegetarian is God's ideal.

It's not saying I know better than Jesus any more than saying grief not existing is God's ideal - meat eating happens and it's not sinful that it happens. However, I would say that animal abuse and environmental destruction ARE sins, and unfortunately the meat industry contributes to both those things. Care for animals and care for the environment are good things for Christians to do. The dismissal of vegetarianism in evangelical circles is linked to YEC and a lack of regard for environmental issues and animal welfare.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not eating meat isn't sinful. It has a long history as part of the discipline of fasting. However, believing that being vegetarian is either more virtuous than being omnivore, or will make one purer and more holy than one's omnivore neighbours is a serious error which is seriously bad for one's spiritual life. It's going back to seeing salvation in dietary terms which Jesus reverses at Mk 7:18-20 and which Paul spends so much time trying to wean his young converts away from.

It's OK to be vegetarian because one doesn't like meat, because one is fasting (though one should not fast on a feast day - that is to be ungrateful to God for his blessings), or even because it's cheaper. It isn't OK to be vegetarian because one believes it will make one a better person, because it won't.

Why isn't not wanting to eat a living creature a good enough reason? That's not automatically saying that one is holier or better because of it. Also lacto-ovo vegetarians are omnivores - only vegans are herbivores, vegetarians still eat some animal products.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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