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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bacon Butties?
Ikkyu
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# 15207

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

It isn't OK to be vegetarian because one believes it will make one a better person, because it won't.

To practice compassion towards animals and be aware of environmental issues and act towards minimizing the harm your actions cause to the environment does not help make you a better person? That makes me curious about your definition of "better person".
(Edited to agree with Pomona)
Actually the concept of "better person" is problematic in itself.

[ 04. January 2016, 22:10: Message edited by: Ikkyu ]

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Why isn't not wanting to eat a living creature a good enough reason?

I should hope it isn't still living when you eat it.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Belle Ringer
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Bacon butties or other, a friend gradually switched churches after his wife died, more and more going to one where a dozen or so members gather for lunch after church and make a point to invite newcomers to join them. The shared meal met real needs of people like him who needed more Christian companionship than sharing the peace offers.

He was driving half an hour (instead of ten minutes) to go to that welcoming church, and quickly made more friends there than he had made in years in the everyone goes home in their separate families after the service church.

If church is just about the liturgy, adding food may seem ridiculous; if church is also about building Christian community, then food in an environment of mingling with others may be a near essential.

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John Holding

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

Eating meat is a result of the Fall and was not permitted by God until Noah.

You know this how?

Even if you read that section of Genesis literally -- and along with most Christians and Jews I know, I certainly don't -- where does it state that? And where does it say that those who lived between Adam and Noah were sinning by eating meat?

John

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LeRoc

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quote:
Enoch: It's OK to be vegetarian because one doesn't like meat, because one is fasting (though one should not fast on a feast day - that is to be ungrateful to God for his blessings), or even because it's cheaper. It isn't OK to be vegetarian because one believes it will make one a better person, because it won't.
Those are the only possible reasons for being a vegetarian? (I'm one myself.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

Eating meat is a result of the Fall and was not permitted by God until Noah.

You know this how?

Even if you read that section of Genesis literally -- and along with most Christians and Jews I know, I certainly don't -- where does it state that? And where does it say that those who lived between Adam and Noah were sinning by eating meat?

John

It doesn't say anything about sinning. But it says in Genesis 3 that God gave us all the plants for our food, and it says in the Noah story that God gave Noah & Co. all animals for their food. The natural conclusion, I think, is that He was broadening the diet by introducing meat.

I don't see what taking it literally has to do with it, however. Whether or not you take it literally, you are interpreting what the story says from within the framework of the story.

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Gamaliel
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@Belle Ringer, I think we can all understand why your friend felt drawn to the more welcoming church with the shared meal after the service - but that's a different issue to the one raised in the OP.

Your friend was simply changing address - moving from one church to another. And yes, plenty of more sacramentally inclined churches offer tea and coffee - and, indeed, shared meals on occasion. Had his original church done so, he would have presumably felt no need to move following his bereavement. For better or worse we live in a multiple choice and often 'consumerist' religious culture.

That's not the issue here.

The issue - as I understand it - is what we think about offering food as some kind of incentive to attract people across the threshold in the first place - as a means of evangelism primarily.

I don't think anyone is disputing the importance of shared food and fellowship in building Christian community - that's a 'given'.

What we are discussing here is the issue of offering food as some kind of 'incentive' to attend church services in the first place ...

Overall, the broad consensus seems to be that it depends how it's done and the extent to which it arises naturally and organically from the worship and communal life of the community rather than being faddish, gimmicky or 'bolt-on' in some way.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
[QUOTE] It may also just be me and tainted by past experience, but there is also a silly macho attitude amongst evangelicals towards vegetarianism and specialist diets. Bacon sandwiches are manly enough, non-meaty food is not.

It sounds silly but I was told as a vegetarian in a previous church that Jesus would expect me to eat meat in Heaven (!) and it was seen as dangerous liberal nonsense.

I'm sorry to hgear about your experiences Pomona but tbh in 40 years in Evangelical churches I haven't come across a single person who has expressed that kind of view about vegetarians/vegetarianism.

In the fellowship I attend now, there are a number of people who don't eat meat - as you might expect from a very mixed inner city setting. In the fellowship I was in until 4 years ago, there were also those who didn't eat meat despite it being a rural area where many people had close links to farming. In neither place have I heard any attack on those who don't eat meat.

On a wider debate - 2 thoughts.

Firstly we are having breakfast at church on Sunday before the service. Breakfast at 10 am service starts at 10.45 sharp. It is mainly pastries and rolls with things for those who are vegetarian and/or gluten free. [We use also real bread not wafers in communion: it is gluten free. All those who can eat, do so from that one loaf].

Secondly - and this is a genuine and wider question for the forum - when did the idea of fasting before communion/the mass/the eucharist/the Lord's Table come in? in 1 Corinthians 11 paul seems to suggest a different approach - if you are hungry, then eat before you come to the table. Hardly a call to fast is it?

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Alan Cresswell

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And, the Gospels place the breaking of bread within the context of a meal. Matthew and Mark place it at some point during the meal, "while they were eating". Luke puts at least the sharing of wine after the meal. So, no fast there either.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Why isn't not wanting to eat a living creature a good enough reason? That's not automatically saying that one is holier or better because of it. Also lacto-ovo vegetarians are omnivores - only vegans are herbivores, vegetarians still eat some animal products.

I'm not saying it isn't a good enough reason. It may be, provided it's accepted that it's an individual decision, that it doesn't make you a better person than those who haven't made that decision, and that it won't make you a better or more holy person, either than your previous self or than other people. It's merely what goes 'into the stomach and out into the sewer'. It does not change the heart, and it is out of the heart that comes what defiles.

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Enoch
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Second post

Yes, I've sometimes puzzled about where fasting before communion comes from. It's why the service always used to be at 8am. It's of very ancient tradition. But it looks fairly clear that the Last Supper was a complete meal, and that obligatory fasting before communion was not a discipline recognised in the New Testament. One might be able to twist Paul's words to say 'he didn't really mean that because he couldn't have been saying that because it's contrary to tradition'. But it would not be remotely convincing.

The reason, I assume, is a desire that the elements should be the first food of one's day. It would be quite interesting to know when it developed. I suspect sometime between 100 and 300 AD, but that it might not have become an actual expectation until a little bit later, ? possibly in the immediate post-Constantine era. Does any Shipmate know?

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

The reason, I assume, is a desire that the elements should be the first food of one's day. It would be quite interesting to know when it developed. I suspect sometime between 100 and 300 AD, but that it might not have become an actual expectation until a little bit later, ? possibly in the immediate post-Constantine era. Does any Shipmate know?

No - because I had never heard of it until this thread!

It just shows how many man-made rules are wrapped in our traditions. In 1000 years our Church will be wondering why bacon butties were obligatory before the service [Biased]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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mr cheesy
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I'm not sure it is quite as simple as the view Enoch expresses about meat-eating.

There is quite a distance between sustainable fishing in the Galilee and modern industrialised meat production.

It seems to me that it is entirely possible to believe that there is a moral case for refusing meat on the basis of cruelty, environmental cost or other reasons. This isn't to say that Jesus was wrong to eat fish (even without getting into an argument about whether he actually ate fish) just that we're living in a different time and a different place. If we all were able to sustainably catch fish, it is possible that some/many of the moral issues vegetarians have would disappear.

As to the point about dietary choices making a "better person", in one sense surely if one has a moral objection to a practice and then vows to avoid that practice, one is therefore more moral than before. I don't know that Peter's example is supposed to make us believe that it makes no difference how we live our lives (or what we put into our mouths).

Of course, it is a messy process and it is wrong to assume we can measure ourselves against others. But it seems to me that there is a strong case for arguing that certain behaviours - regular flying, eating excess amounts of meat, driving petrol cars - are less moral than not doing those things. Therefore, as someone who does all of them, I could be a better person by refraining from them.

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arse

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Albertus
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But, to be clear, those objections- while, to return to the OP, they might rule out all but the most expensive and artisan bacon butties!- are not to eating meat or fish as such, but to eating meat or fish produced in certain ways which are, alas, predominant in our society and economy.
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Our Church has started giving bacon sandwiches before the service to encourage people in.

What do you think of this and other gimmicks to 'get people in'?

I think it gives a whole new meaning when people describe the church as cancerous. Has no-one in your congregation been watching the news in recent months?

[ 05. January 2016, 10:37: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Gamaliel
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I don't know when the tradition of fasting before communion developed but I'd imagine it evolved/emerged around the time that the eucharist morphed from being a communal meal in the 'bun-fight' sense to becoming a more 'ritualised' one ... with 'tokens' of bread and wine to represent (or 're-present') the Body and Blood of Christ (see what I did there, introduce capital letters?) ...

I don't have an issue with it. Why is it any more a 'man-made rule' than anything else we might do in - or prior to - a church service?

Besides, the Pauline injunction to eat and drink before you come to a meeting is there to avoid people getting drunk or pigging out on the shared meal at the expense of other people - who might not get anything to eat because others had scoffed more than their fair share.

Once you've got smaller 'elements' - a piece of bread and a sip of wine - there's no danger in anyone getting drunk or pigging out on someone else's share ... so the injunction becomes redundant. Although, of course, Anglican vicars I know have confessed to feeling somewhat tipsy once they've celebrated several eucharists in the course of a morning around village parishes with a handful of attendees ...

[Big Grin]

FWIW, fasting before communion is a practice I've adopted myself - where and when feasible. It just doesn't 'feel right' to me any more to have a normal breakfast beforehand.

That doesn't mean I'd condemn or criticise those who have no such qualms - as I've said upthread, however we administer these things has to arise 'organically' from the norms and ethos of whatever tradition we're involved with.

I s'pose it's another indicator - among others - that I'm steadily moving 'up the candle' ... but that doesn't mean I'd begrudge ExclamationMark and his congregation their pre-service breakfast and pastries or whatever else.

It's all down to context. In ExclamationMark's context that's all perfectly fine and acceptable ... but it would be rude or disrespectful to roll up with Danish pastries, bacon butties and lashings of latte at St Alysious's Spikey-Parish on Monstrance Street.

That's not to say that food and fellowship can't be a part of a 'High Church' community ... from what I've seen churches of that ilk go in for shared meals and so on the same as everyone else does - only in ways that are appropriate for them.

The liberal-catholic Anglican parish here doesn't appear to go in for pre-eucharist fasting - although some of the older members (older? they're all old ... [Biased] ) might observe that practice.

They do have fish and chip suppers after their annual AGM or whatever it is and on their Saint's Day and what-have-you ... as well as hosting the annual Churches Together 'seder' style (yes, I know, I know ...) Maundy Thursday fellowship meal thing ...

If anyone's stuck it out long enough through an Orthodox Paschal Vigil to sample the food on offer after that ... [Ultra confused] they'll have seen tables groaning with all kinds of goodies ... and with their strict Lenten fasting regime you can understand why ...

I don't think I'll forget the look on the face of one priest as he tucked into the roast lamb after a vegan diet for 6 weeks ...

You can tell, of course, that I don't regard the NT as 'normative' for everything we do or don't do on a Sunday morning ... I mean, who really knows what the heck the Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians?

All we've got is one-side of a telephone conversation as it were ...

Sure, there's enough detail there for us to make an educated guess about what was going on at the other end of the line ... but we can't possibly 'reconstruct' a NT style service.

It's bonkers to believe we can.

Even those who believe that our services/meetings should echo or follow a template based on 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 can't agree on the details ...

So, I'm sorry, I've left my 'restorationism' far behind. If any of you want to imagine that your services look anything like those in 1st century Ephesus or Thessalonica then go ahead ... entertain that fantasy ...

And enjoy your coffee and doughnuts or your bacon butties ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Enoch: It does not change the heart, and it is out of the heart that comes what defiles.
So what? If it doesn't change my heart and leaves me an equally bad person as I was before, but saves a couple of trees in the Amazon forest, I'm still happy with it.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Gamaliel
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Of course, if one is going to introduce - or re-introduce - some kind of 'love-feast' style pattern to the way they 'do' communion in their church, then the Pauline injunction about eating beforehand lest you scoff more than your fair share of the grub or get drunk on the wine - would still apply.

It's all down to context.

If someone were coming along to ExclamationMark's church and started scoffing all the pastries before anyone else had a chance to eat some or helping themselves to copious amounts of the communion bread and wine (whether alcoholic or otherwise) then ExclamationMark and others present would be well within their rights to upbraid them and direct them to those particular verses ...

I know this begs a whole load of questions -- as to how and when we decide whether something in a NT epistle is 'normative' or 'for all time' or contingent on circumstances ...

Hence all the kerfuffle in some churches over women's 'head-coverings' and so on ...

And much more besides ...

Context is everything.

Meanwhile, on the pre-communion fast issue ... I think I'm right in saying that the RCs have reduced the stipulation to no food or drink (other than for health/medical reasons) for an hour before Mass. It used to be a 12 hour fast at one time, I think ... and RCs I know tell me that it wasn't uncommon when they were young to see women (and sometimes blokes) keeling over and fainting in church because they'd fasted and had become light-headed.

As in all else, common sense should come into these things too.

As to whether that means that a church which has, historically, observed some kind of pre-communion fast should abandon that practice in order to 'get bums on seats' and start serving coffee and pastries instead ...

That's a moot point.

I'd suggest that such a move on their part would be feasible if:

- It could be shown that it was commensurate with their tradition in some way (ie. spirit but not letter of the law type of thing).

- There was broad agreement within the congregation and the respective ecclesial authorities.

Otherwise, it might violate their principles in a way that was pragmatic but somehow not 'right' in their particular context.

So, what happens when push comes to shove?

If Laid-Back Community Church continues to grow and thrive down the road whilst St Strictus's parish continues to decline because the former is serving bacon butties before communion and the latter insights on a pre-communion fast ...

Should St Strictus amend its ways and introduce bacon butties in a last ditch attempt to keep afloat?

Should it close down and allow its remaining members to go to Laid-Back, swallowing their pride (or their aesthetic taste) along with their bacon butties ...?

Where and what to do?

Or is it a case of bacon butties or no bacon butties one of them has succeeded in following the zeitgeist?

Community is a precious thing, and it's great when churches (or whatever type) succeed in creating and maintaining one ...

But is there a price?

I greatly admire a lot of what goes on at my parish church ... the youth work, the way they involve the elderly in the Coffee and Communion fortnightly midweek service - which my doddery mother-in-law loves ...

But can I really sit there week by week, teeth on edge - having to put up with puerile preaching and a Join-the-Dots Janet and John level approach to the Gospel?

Doughnuts or not doughnuts, bacon butties or no bacon butties?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. If someone were coming along to ExclamationMark's church and started scoffing all the pastries before anyone else had a chance to eat some or helping themselves to copious amounts of the communion bread and wine (whether alcoholic or otherwise) then ExclamationMark and others present would be well within their rights to upbraid them and direct them to those particular verses ...

2. Context is everything.

1. We wouldn't be bothred in the slightest: we'd find more food somehow - Iceland is 100 yards from our door (the shop not the nation).

It's neither a gimmick nor a gimme: we just do it as it's good for us to eat and chat together. Anyone passing by or who wants to come in ois welcome to eat. No pressure on coming to church.

It's an idea that came through our care committee and not a top down initiative at all. It somehow links quite nicely into our poroviding hot meals for soem of the people who live in the warden controlled flats over the road and who can't coem across to us for lunch on a tuesday.

We do the same for anyone who might roll up for our lunch club midweek.

2. I'm not convinced - true we have to recognise context but there is an argument for timeless truths and authentic personal care being expressed as unchanging foundations in a rapidly changing world. Yes some thrive on and long for the rapid changes but I find that many are attracted to the timeless being expressed through everyday life and real freindships.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, the real friendships and care thing happens in all sorts of settings, of course - they aren't the preserve of any one church or tradition ...

By the same token, the opposite tendencies can be found in churches of arll traditions too.

I s'pose what I'm getting at is the extent to which we should extend or violate our traditions / modus operandi?

On one level, it's 'easier' for a church like yours to build-in the foody aspect as there are no qualms about pre-communion fasting. A 'higher' church would have to find a different way of doing that, unless it were prepared to ditch that aspect of its tradition.

I daresay a lot depends on need or context - I remember seeing a programme about Aids/HIV in Africa when the epidemic was at its height. An RC nun was going round giving out condoms.

When the interviewer asked her how she squared that with RC teaching she replied that it was either that or watch people die.

I read somewhere that the Russian Orthodox nun, Mother Maria of Paris, rarely attended church services because she took the injunction seriously to feed the hungry, clothe the naked ... while everyone else was at church she was taking food to needy families and visiting the sick. She died in a Nazi concentration camp having helped Jewish people escape the Holocaust.

Obviously, when it comes to meeting needs whatever programmes or traditions we have need to take a lower priority ...

But how far do we go with some of the more 'gimmicky' things?

Pre-service breakfasts might not be a gimmick where you are, but they could well be somewhere else. How should they address this one?

I'm not talking about initiatives or practices that arise naturally and organically from within a congregation - but things which are deemed de-rigeur ... and which might be faddish.

It's a tricky one. I know of a village parish that has survived through lay involvement - plus support gratefully received from a nearby Baptist minister who has helped with preaching when no Anglican lay readers or clergy were available.

Now they have an incumbent I'm told some of the young mums with kids no longer attend as he won't compromise with the liturgy 'They've got to learn it ...'

Whatever we think of that, what is he supposed to do? Stick a clown's nose on and do Messy Church? Do all the lickle actions with the kiddies songs and ditch the Prayer Book?

Sure, be all things to all men, but does that involve not being 'ourselves'?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, on the pre-communion fast issue ... I think I'm right in saying that the RCs have reduced the stipulation to no food or drink (other than for health/medical reasons) for an hour before Mass.

Not quite - it's an hour before communion, which in practical terms means an abrogation of the fast almost entirely.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Belle Ringer
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I've been to churches that try to attract people with secular shows, with handouts of food or clothes, with children's day care, with "more relevant" music, with free use of the hall for your meeting, with gifts to take home, with -- you name it.

In my experience, if the goal is to manipulate / bribe people into coming, it fails to attract people to the church as church. People sense (and resent) when motivation is bribery instead of caring. They'll take the offered bribes and leave.

Your unspoken attitude comes through. If you hand out food (before, during, or after church) with a goal of manipulating people into coming, those who come will leave as soon as the goodies cease. Bribery makes people cynical.

Genuine caring and meeting of real needs (for food, music, prayer, whatever) works. People sense and respond to the caring.

What is the motivation for handing out bacon sandwiches? If it's intended as a gimmick to bribe ("entice") people to come to church, it won't work and will instead make people cynical about that church. If it's an expression of genuine interest each recipient, it will attract people not because of the sandwiches but the caring being expressed through the vehicle of the sandwiches.

[ 06. January 2016, 17:48: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

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SvitlanaV2
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Belle Ringer

However, Boogie's is a British Methodist church, so it's highly unlikely that the leadership sees it as a matter of 'manipulating/bribing people into coming'. That would be unusual.

In addition, it doesn't sound as if these bacon butties are meant to attract 'the poor' (although I'm sure they would be most welcome). Most of the folks who turn up can probably afford buy and cook their own breakfast, and enjoy it in the comfort of their own homes if they want to. If that's the case then the church's generosity is more of a friendly community-building gesture than something that risks creating 'rice Christians' (or should that 'bacon butty Christians'?).

[ 06. January 2016, 18:55: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...it's highly unlikely that the leadership sees it as a matter of 'manipulating/bribing people into coming'.

You may be reading my word "bribe" too literally. It's not about dollar value. It's about what intent is motivating the offer.

People instinctively respond to the underlying intent.

The OP said a specific offer (bacon sandwiches) was made for the purpose of getting people to come in, and asked what we think of gimmicks to get people to come in.

My answer is, gimmicks don't work. People sense that it's a gimmick, a superficial encounter pretending to be "for you" when it's really for some other, unspoken, goal like "getting more (employed and preferably child producing) bodies into our church to ensure the future of our church."

People don't like being "used." People really do pick up on whether you are engaging them honestly or are just trying to manipulate them for your own benefit (or the benefit of your church).

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

The OP said a specific offer (bacon sandwiches) was made for the purpose of getting people to come in, and asked what we think of gimmicks to get people to come in.

My answer is, gimmicks don't work. People sense that it's a gimmick, a superficial encounter pretending to be "for you" when it's really for some other, unspoken, goal like "getting more (employed and preferably child producing) bodies into our church to ensure the future of our church."

People don't like being "used." People really do pick up on whether you are engaging them honestly or are just trying to manipulate them for your own benefit (or the benefit of your church).

Spot on.

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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Ethne Alba
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We were once part of a church that served breakfast.

Tbh, i viewed it as a great way for everyone to be up / washed / dressed / get to the church building....and then....eat breakfast.

Certainly it saved time in Our household + there's that whole thing about eating together.

There were some discussion about "healthy eating", so ISTR that we served yoghurt and fresh fruit for those as felt it important....

[ 07. January 2016, 15:42: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...it's highly unlikely that the leadership sees it as a matter of 'manipulating/bribing people into coming'.

You may be reading my word "bribe" too literally. It's not about dollar value. It's about what intent is motivating the offer.

People instinctively respond to the underlying intent.

The OP said a specific offer (bacon sandwiches) was made for the purpose of getting people to come in, and asked what we think of gimmicks to get people to come in.

There's a cultural difference in play here, I think. You have to realise that church decline and small congregations are fairly normal in British Christianity; no church leader is going to hand out food and expect a flock of people to come along and get converted. That was tried and found wanting about 50-100 years ago! Now it's about being seen as 'friendly'.

Middle class British people don't necessarily mind churches promoting themselves, so long as it's low-key rather than hard-sell, especially if the local community already knows about and appreciates the social commitment of the local congregation. Handing out bacon butties on a Sunday morning might not arouse very much suspicion about 'motives' - although being Britain, it might arouse a fair bit of well-meaning indifference.

Apart from that, middle class Brits are already willing to be 'bribed' to go to church - usually, it's so they can get their kids into a desirable church-affiliated school!

[ 07. January 2016, 20:29: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Kelly Alves

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As she said, though, she was specifically responding to the ( British) OP'er's request for opinions about the specific idea of "gimmicks to get people in" (which is a direct quote, right? )

I thought her response was a pretty concise summary of what a lot of people have already said.

[ 07. January 2016, 20:33: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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SvitlanaV2
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Fair enough. It's just my opinion that there are gimmicks and gimmicks, and that not all churchy gimmicks are going to make outsiders feel resentful of hidden 'motives'.

Will it be 'successful'? Well, Methodists are positive people, but 'getting them in' probably just means they hope a few people will come along, enjoy the butties and have a nice time with some nice people. Maybe a bit of belonging before believing will occur, but no one is expecting mass conversions. Methodists aren't that daft!

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Kelly Alves

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Ok, I think I hear you, and " hoping people come and enjoy themselves" is pretty much what I meant before about "outreach being reaching out" rather than "reeling in."

I think it is good when a church sees itself as an asset to a community rather than as a recruitment staion for their parent organization is another way to put it, I guess. Healthier for the morale of that church in itself. I certainly see a dfference in the contentment level of parishioners whose churches operate that way.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Gamaliel
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FWIW, I thought Belle Ringer's comment was fine too - in terms of identifying the pit-falls of gimmicks in a general sense ...

She wasn't referring to particular cultural conditions in any one place or time - be it Texas or be it Tonbridge Wells, Taunton, Thurso or Todmorden.

I think there are marked cultural differences between the US and UK church scenes - even within those Christian traditions and churches/denominations we have in common - and Belle Ringer will also be well aware of those. I sometimes read her posts and think I'm living on an entirely different planet ... but I suspect the some thing happens in reverse ...

[Big Grin]

What Belle Ringer has highlighted - and it augments the insights of other posters - is the need for 'authenticity'.

How we achieve that is a moot point ... we can't pick it up out of a self-help book or 'how to do church' manual ...

It has to arise naturally and organically out of 'who we are' and how we seek to work out and express our faith. It's difficult not to be 'self-conscious' about these things, but people recognise authenticity when they see it ... from whichever direction it comes.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think there are marked cultural differences between the US and UK church scenes - even within those Christian traditions and churches/denominations we have in common - and Belle Ringer will also be well aware of those. I sometimes read her posts and think I'm living on an entirely different planet ... but I suspect the some thing happens in reverse ...

[Big Grin]

Indeed it does. Perhaps one day we can discuss it over a plate of bacon butties and country ham biscuits. [Big Grin]

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Gamaliel
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Or a pint of proper hand-pulled cask ale ...

[Biased] [Big Grin]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Or a pint of proper hand-pulled cask ale ...

[Biased] [Big Grin]

Or? Why not and? [Big Grin]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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beatmenace
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Now they have an incumbent I'm told some of the young mums with kids no longer attend as he won't compromise with the liturgy 'They've got to learn it ...'

Whatever we think of that, what is he supposed to do? Stick a clown's nose on and do Messy Church? Do all the lickle actions with the kiddies songs and ditch the Prayer Book?

Sure, be all things to all men, but does that involve not being 'ourselves'?




While being a Priest does need some ability to communicate with all kinds of people, I'm convinced good children's workers are born not made, and its obvious if you're not one.

We have quite a few folk who are in their element with scores of Children on a Sunday Morning.
And they are brilliant at it.

I have started attending the mostly child-free Saturday night meeting, which should give you a clue about my own preferences on this kind of thing.

[edited for code and to delete blank post material]

[ 08. January 2016, 13:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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SvitlanaV2
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I understand the concern about authenticity, but what that means for each church might presumably be rather different.

My sense is that for a friendly Methodist congregation, handing out bacon butties at church is probably a no-pressure way of being authentically friendly and perhaps reducing the fear factor about churchgoing. For the fundamentalists down the road, giving out food in exchange for potential conversions is presumably being 'authentic' to their own mindset. And churches that keep up with trends in terms of worship and leadership style etc., would be authentically trendy in seeking new evangelistic methods from a conference session or from the pages of the latest book on the subject.

If we're talking about churches being authentically Christ-like, though, that's a tall order, to put it mildly! The churches have to do what they can, according to their own understanding.

God loves a joyful giver, but I wonder if the precise nature of our motives matters all that much in practical terms. In reality, almost all of these churches are losing members, resources and cultural significance, no matter how authentic their ventures may or may not be. I suppose struggling congregations have an advantage here, though: they probably can't afford to waste money on pricey 'gimmicks', which means they get the satisfaction of making a virtue of necessity.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I sometimes read her posts and think I'm living on an entirely different planet ... but I suspect the some thing happens in reverse...

Seeing as this obviously wasn't one of those posts, I'm not sure why this remark pertains.

Svitlana-- RE: " Christlike authenticity" -- thank goodness nobody introduced that phrase to the conversation (before you did) as yeah, who could achieve it, and how could you quantify it if they did?

Anyway, while authenticity is important, I find myself wanting a different word. A phrase from curriculum development comes to me: " process over product." In teaching terms is about valuing the experience of an activity and evaluating it by the effort, enthusiasm, and memories generated in the process itself rather than evaluating it on what you are able to tape up on the wall. In terms of outreach: In terms of outreach: the act of reaching out itself is the mark of abundance, and it lowers the joy factor of those reaching out if they worry about who will come back later,mrather then relaxing and enjoying the event itself as something intrinsically important.
(Wow, sounds like dating, doesn't it [Big Grin] )

The sense I get is that most of us are pretty much saying the same thing but finding different ways to say it. Not that that is a problem, each nuance brings a little more insight.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Gamaliel
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Sure - the only reason I cited the cultural difference aspect, Kelly Alves, was because I understood SvitlanaV2's response to Belle Ringer in that kind of context.

At least initially ...

When I looked at it again I understood Belle Ringer's point in a more general sense.

[Hot and Hormonal] [Help] As confession is good for the soul, I must also admit that I also assumed that the kind of crass 'bribery' incentives that Belle Ringer was alluding to were more likely to be a feature of US religion than to the church scene on this side of the Pond.

So perhaps there was a ... mea culpa ... prejudicial element or an 'At least we're not like those Yanks ...' aspect to my response - for which I apologise.

As SvitlanaV2 has said, if there are more razzamattazy gifts and incentives offered as part of North American religious culture we have our own - arguably more subtle but equally insidious equivalents - such as people attending Anglican church services every now and then simply to get their kids into well-run CofE schools ...

So, apologies if I muddied the waters.

Belle Ringer's observations are sound.

@Nick Tamen ... yes, it should be both/and ... and to show that I'm repentant of any lapse into this side of the Pond chauvinism, I'd be more than happy to share a US craft beer too ... perhaps a Sierra Nevada or one of those Goose Island pale ales ...

[Votive]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I must also admit that I also assumed that the kind of crass 'bribery' incentives that Belle Ringer was alluding to were more likely to be a feature of US religion than to the church scene on this side of the Pond.

That's an intruguing question. The OP was about a UK church giving food for the purpose of enticing people to come into the church, and the OP referred to this as a gimmick (which is different from seeing and meeting a need of the people).

Do USA churches turn to gimmicks more often or less often than UK churches? I have no idea. I've never seen bacon sandwiches, although some put out an elaborate spread of nibble food (fruit pieces, cheese, cookies) at coffee hoping that will entice people to come to church.

Whatever I have seen will be an unusual list just because I've lived in over 20 cities, that's a lot of different churches, which means exposure to lots of practices even if some take place in only one or two churchs.

US mainline and UK CofE seem to have a shared concern "how can we get more people to come to church" - expressed in things like "come back to church Sunday" (the usefulness of which gets debated on the Ship every year).

The issue is - are we seeking to get people to come by noticing needs and offering real help including how the spiritual can help with real problems; or by gimmicks to get them in the door hoping they'll stay for reasons other than the gimmick?

Some UK churches offer a place in school in exchange for becoming or remaining a member - The school is meeting real needs, but is the requirement to attend church a "gimmick" to get people to come to church for reasons other than wanting to be part of a worship community?

I've seen churches try to get people into the building via secular concerts and free use of the hall for secular meetings, on the theory if we just get people into the building they'll see the beautiful stained glass windows and join the church. Doesn't work. People don't trade Sunday mornings week after week just to see the glass art.

Gimmicks misunderstand people, and mis-express what it is the church has to offer that is otherwise missing in someone's life.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Some UK churches offer a place in school in exchange for becoming or remaining a member - The school is meeting real needs, but is the requirement to attend church a "gimmick" to get people to come to church for reasons other than wanting to be part of a worship community?

This is an interesting point which only really applies to certain popular CofE schools/churches. Intriguingly, it may be possible to legally challenge some the schools' admission policies. Many years ago my wife worked in a CofE school which had church attendance as part of its policy. But when they looked at the Foundation Trust Deed they discovered that the school had been founded for "the poor boys of the parish. No church attendance was stipulated, but gender, home location and income were! I don't know if this kind of thing has ever been tested in the Courts. (Conversely she did know one or two families who started going to church "to get their children in" - and caught the Faith!)

quote:
I've seen churches try to get people into the building via secular concerts and free use of the hall for secular meetings, on the theory if we just get people into the building they'll see the beautiful stained glass windows and join the church. Doesn't work. People don't trade Sunday mornings week after week just to see the glass art.

You're right, but I've definitely heard folk from such churches claiming that having a local Choral Society concert in their church constituted "mission" and that "it was lovely to see the church full for once". I fear they may be deluded, even if its church folk who do the welcoming/coffee making and if they put leaflets about the church on the seats.
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Albertus
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Does the school point not apply to some extent to some RC churches too, although I'd imagine that'd be more about non-observant cradle RCs suddenly, ahem, experiencing a reawakening of faith around the time that their children are coming up to 5, 7 or 11.
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Gimmicks misunderstand people, and mis-express what it is the church has to offer that is otherwise missing in someone's life.

When you put it like that, I'm tempted to say that almost anything that a church might do to attract or reach out to people might be described as a gimmick.

Why? Because to 'misunderstand' modern western people is to refuse to accept the apparent reality that they mostly live and are mostly happy to live in a disenchanted world. No matter how much you love them, smile at them, give them bacon butties, concerts in cathedrals, tattooed vicars in t-shirts or prayer time in coffee shops, the reality is that they don't see any need for a God who is surplus to requirements. They don't see how such a troublesome and unreliable character, even if he did exist, could help them with anything that's 'missing' in their lives, and other people's apparently unjustified faith often embarrasses or frustrates them.

If this is so, it's hard to know how the churches can benefit, whatever their level of understanding. Maybe they could re-fashion themselves as centres for self-help and personal growth....

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Gimmicks misunderstand people, and mis-express what it is the church has to offer that is otherwise missing in someone's life.

When you put it like that, I'm tempted to say that almost anything that a church might do to attract or reach out to people might be described as a gimmick.
My hunch is that if the focus, explicitly or implicitly, is on conveying "what the church has to offer," then the point has already been lost.

For my money, the two questions worth asking are "How can we be a good neighbor in the community where God has put us?," and "How can we best show hospitality to those who walk through our doors?" It should never be about attracting new bodies or getting people in the pews. Rather, it should be about sharing the love of Christ in sometimes simple and tangible ways with all we meet.

At the heart of things, what we as church have to offer isn't programs or services or education or whatever. It may not even be God, who certainly is active and can be found in other places, despite us. What we as church have to offer is ourselves. And sometimes, something as simple as the gift of a bit of food can convey that self-offering.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Gamaliel
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Indeed, on the use of church buildings for choral concerts and recitals, as the chair of an arts group that regularly organises concerts in a church venue I'm often struck by:

- The number of people from evangelical churches - who rarely attend such events (and the venue itself is not run by a evangelical congregation) - who tell me it's worth doing 'because it gets people into a church building'.

- The number of people I hear about who won't attend concerts at such a venue apparently 'because it's a church'.

I just think it's a good thing to do in and of itself - it's good use of the church building as a community resource.

Do I think people will be more likely to attend services there at some point because of the concerts?

No, I don't.

Do I think it's a good vehicle for bringing people together?

Yes, undoubtedly.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
- The number of people I hear about who won't attend concerts at such a venue apparently 'because it's a church'.

Good post. I wonder, though, if that is always for religious reasons rather than practical ones.

The Aldeburgh Music people often organise concerts at Blythburgh Church, which is a beautiful building. But the last time we went (about 4 years ago) the place was freezing, the car park was a morass, the loo was an Elsan in a hut down a narrow path nearly in the next county, and we were seated on hard wobbly chairs half behind a pillar. The tickets weren't cheap and we decided never to go again!

[ 09. January 2016, 21:10: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...
Why? Because to 'misunderstand' modern western people is to refuse to accept the apparent reality that they mostly live and are mostly happy to live in a disenchanted world. No matter how much you love them, smile at them, give them bacon butties, concerts in cathedrals, tattooed vicars in t-shirts or prayer time in coffee shops, the reality is that they don't see any need for a God who is surplus to requirements. They don't see how such a troublesome and unreliable character, even if he did exist, could help them with anything that's 'missing' in their lives, and other people's apparently unjustified faith often embarrasses or frustrates them.

Very well put.

quote:

If this is so, it's hard to know how the churches can benefit, whatever their level of understanding. Maybe they could re-fashion themselves as centres for self-help and personal growth. ...

Well, in theory, they always have been. However, "You're a miserable sinner and you're going to burn in hell forever unless you come to church" doesn't actually come across like an offer of help and growth in the 21st Century.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

For my money, the two questions worth asking are "How can we be a good neighbor in the community where God has put us?," and "How can we best show hospitality to those who walk through our doors?" It should never be about attracting new bodies or getting people in the pews. Rather, it should be about sharing the love of Christ in sometimes simple and tangible ways with all we meet.

At the heart of things, what we as church have to offer isn't programs or services or education or whatever. It may not even be God, who certainly is active and can be found in other places, despite us. What we as church have to offer is ourselves. And sometimes, something as simple as the gift of a bit of food can convey that self-offering.

The phrase used here is 'serving the community', and every church wants to do it, and that's wonderful.

However, there are two problems here. Firstly, this sort of thing is almost an institutional necessity now, rather than just a Christ-like virtue. If a church doesn't do the community stuff in a secular community then no one will even know it exists! In fact, sometimes most of the community doesn't know in any case, because 'serving the community' takes places from a building that often looks scruffy and abandoned....

And this leads to the second problem. Some non-churchgoers complain about churches that don't seem to be doing this and that for the community. What they don't realise is that churches are just people. People among whom the Kingdom of God may exist, but on a physical level, just people. But when churchgoers are getting older and older, are dying, have few children or converts to push the work forward, where is all this Christ-like 'service' supposed to come from?

See, you need to keep on recruiting in order to have people on board to serve the community. If you fail at the first task you're going to run out of people to pursue the second, and the system won't work. This is a serious problem for many community-minded, evangelism-shy churches. Many of them here have already closed or are projected to close.

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[It's] hard to know how the churches can benefit [from the disenchantment of the world] whatever their level of understanding. Maybe they could re-fashion themselves as centres for self-help and personal growth. ...

Well, in theory, they always have been. However, "You're a miserable sinner and you're going to burn in hell forever unless you come to church" doesn't actually come across like an offer of help and growth in the 21st Century.
I don't think self-help and personal growth have always been perceived as the priority of the church.

In any case, in a disenchanted world the self-help and personal growth that people now want isn't going to be shackled to the Bible, nor to the God of the Bible, so in effect, what I'm suggesting is that the churches would need to engage in a hollowing out of their theology in order to 'understand' where people are at....

Regarding hell, the churches I know dropped that (or at least stopped preaching about it) a long time ago. They're still struggling to maintain both their membership and their community programmes.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
However, there are two problems here. Firstly, this sort of thing is almost an institutional necessity now, rather than just a Christ-like virtue. If a church doesn't do the community stuff in a secular community then no one will even know it exists! In fact, sometimes most of the community doesn't know in any case, because 'serving the community' takes places from a building that often looks scruffy and abandoned....

And this leads to the second problem. Some non-churchgoers complain about churches that don't seem to be doing this and that for the community. What they don't realise is that churches are just people. People among whom the Kingdom of God may exist, but on a physical level, just people. But when churchgoers are getting older and older, are dying, have few children or converts to push the work forward, where is all this Christ-like 'service' supposed to come from?

See, you need to keep on recruiting in order to have people on board to serve the community. If you fail at the first task you're going to run out of people to pursue the second, and the system won't work. This is a serious problem for many community-minded, evangelism-shy churches. Many of them here have already closed or are projected to close.

I think culture differences are at play again. What you describe as the condition of church life and churches' places in communities really doesn't fit here—yet at least. There's no question that the trend that direction has started, especially in more urban areas, but the American South is still a place where churches are generally seen as having a visible and respected place in the community. People are very aware that they exist.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about what people expect from churches or what they do in the community, but I do get the feeling from what you have said that the expectations might be somewhat different from those usually encountered here. For my own congregation, I'd say our service to the community happens as much away from the church building as in it, and I don't think we're unusual that way.

As for surviving to do the service, the healthiest churches I have encountered are the ones that don't worry about that and that recognize, as resurrection people, that sometimes congregations "die." I have watched congregations wither away from lack of vision. I have also watched congregations with keen vision find that in dying, new forms of ministry and discipleship are born.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Gamaliel
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It varies a fair bit across the UK, Nick Tamen ...

In rural and semi-rural areas people seem to appreciate the fact that the churches are there ... even if they don't engage with them themselves.

In inner-city areas it's very different and in suburban areas it's different again ...

@Baptist Trainfan ... ah, Blythburgh parish church - wonderful building! But yes, I can imagine it being tricky as a venue ...

The church building we use here is excellent as a venue for classical concerts, brass-band concerts and choral music ... the acoustics are excellent - there is plenty of free parking near-by in the town's main car park and it's got simple but flexible staging and it's possible to lay the chairs out in various configurations ... it's a late-Victorian Anglo-Catholic building but they took the pews out a while back to create a more flexible space ... and it's worked.

However, when it comes to putting on jazz or folk music concerts in there the reaction is very different ... even when we've had drinks served at the back (tut! tut! tut!) ...

So it's a venue that works for the right kind of event ... for other events we look elsewhere.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, when it comes to putting on jazz or folk music concerts in there the reaction is very different ... even when we've had drinks served at the back (tut! tut! tut!) ...

Our fairly formal parish church (the "Civic Church", no less) does its best to be a pro-Cathedral, with high standards of music and liturgy. However one event that's been held for the last few years has been an excellent Jazz concert, as part of the Christmas Tree Festival". To quote from the Parish Magazine: "A new highlight was a New Orleans style spiritual jazz concert on the Saturday night by John Petters and his band. This was a real success and there was even dancing in aisles!" I can say that one of the dancers was Mrs. Vicar's wife and also that there was a licensed bar at the back. It was all a bit of a change from Choral Mattins.

On a different tack, Union Chapel in Islington has become a very well-known "venue" for Folk, Jazz and World Music. I suspect that many folk don't even realise that it's a "live" Congregational Church.

[ 10. January 2016, 15:38: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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