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Source: (consider it) Thread: Thinking about one's own death
Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.

A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
Possibly far off topic here, I hold to the view that prayer doesn't change God's mind; it opens our own minds to God, which I find much more useful.

As to our deaths, I've concluded recently that my own perception of it has everything to do with age. Twenty years ago I would have been worried that my marriage had been cut off early and that my children would be left with a large part of their support taken away. The marriage has lasted over 40 rich years now and I would like many more, but we've had a good time. The children are self supporting (almost...) and my departure now might sadden them, but wouldn't hurt them, so I can face it more easily now. And I had to, when a medical treatment went horribly wrong. Since then, life has felt quite different; easier to enjoy the good bits, easier to dismiss the rest, and in theory, not too bothered about how it all ends.

I haven't got much into funerals yet, but I really want my organist friend to play something inappropriate by Offenbach, mostly to annoy people.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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My dad died when I was 27. I had lived all of my life until that point expecting him to die. He had very serious heart problems and had his first heart attack when I was 2. When he died it was so completely unsurprising for me and my brother that we took it in our stride and recovered quite quickly. It didn't lead to any thoughts of our own deaths.

My mother died in October last year. I am 52, she was 81 and frail. For some reason, my mind seems to have thought she was going to live forever and her death has really rocked me. However, she had been extraordinarily sensible - she downsized about 10 years ago, moved into a lovely retirement complex about 4 years ago, and kept on doing all the things she enjoyed and none of the things she disliked. Watching her die was awful, but she had been such a wonderful friend and mum that we just wanted every possible moment we could with her.

My father-in-law died 18 months ago, fighting everyone every step of the way, making it extremely unpleasant to be anywhere near him. My mother-in-law is immobile, confused, and focussed on why she can't leave her rest home. Until she was moved into the rest home, she was never going to move, no way!

The last 2 years have forced me and my partner to think about how we want our old age and death to be. Watching my mother's dignified and happy last few years and contrasting it with my parents-in-law's bitter fighting with us, the medical practitioners around them and then the rest home staff, we know what we want for ourselves.

It is likely that, like my mother and grandmother, I will have a stroke in my 70s or 80s. I think about that a lot at the moment. But I also think about the life that my mother lived enthusiastically right up until the week before her death, and I want to be able to do the same. I am taking all the steps I can to make sure that my health and fitness are better than my parents'.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
leo
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.

A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
In which case, they don't believe in the communion of saints.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.

A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
In which case, they don't believe in the communion of saints.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "communion of saints" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A requiem mass helps their progress through Purgatory.

If purgatory exists, I refuse to believe in a deity who has a "fast checkout" for those fortunate enough to have a bunch of friends who can get together and say the right words together - rather than, for example, the wretched isolated Christian martyr murdered in Syria. Or the multitude of Christians who do not believe in purgatory. Or praying for the dead.

That's such a convoluted idea that I'm calling it utter bullshit.

In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
In the sense of twisting God's arm to make things happen? No, I don't really think I do.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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I have jjust returned home after 24 hours in the Stroke ward of Southampton Hospital. I think mortality was trying to catch me out!! However, it seems it was a TIA , so I shall be tapping on Thursday for the start of the term as usual. I recieved excellent care.

It does go to show, however, how important it is not to hesitate but take immediate action if one has any of the standard stroke symptoms.In this case, it was a numbness in the left side of mouth and cheek.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.

A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
In which case, they don't believe in the communion of saints.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "communion of saints" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant

[ 05. January 2016, 19:06: Message edited by: leo ]

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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rolyn
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When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.

Then there's that sudden sinking feeling in the gut you can get when the thought dawns of *not being here any more*, you know-- for the rest of eternity. This fear is also irrational because we seem to forget we weren't here in the eternity before our birth.

All this puny attempt at rationality is of course going on in an animal brain which, under normal circumstances, is hard wired for survival. Yet in humans this can be over-ridden as well we know.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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rolyn
I really like the way you have put that; it's got everything exactly right.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.

Then there's that sudden sinking feeling in the gut you can get when the thought dawns of *not being here any more*, you know-- for the rest of eternity. This fear is also irrational because we seem to forget we weren't here in the eternity before our birth.

All this puny attempt at rationality is of course going on in an animal brain which, under normal circumstances, is hard wired for survival. Yet in humans this can be over-ridden as well we know.

Brilliantly put.

I feel the same. Number 1 - I don't want it to hurt. But, like you say, I have had times of excruciating pain but wasn't afraid - just in pain! When I had gall stone pain and was blue/couldn't move I was reassuring my friends that it would pass and I didn't need an ambulance (which was true).

We simply can't imagine not existing - because to imagine you have to exist!

I agree about the animal too. The drive to survive in living things gives everything we have. If all creatures overcame that drive there would be no life on Earth. So it matters enormously.

[ 06. January 2016, 07:54: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Raptor Eye
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# 16649

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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I have jjust returned home after 24 hours in the Stroke ward of Southampton Hospital. I think mortality was trying to catch me out!! However, it seems it was a TIA , so I shall be tapping on Thursday for the start of the term as usual. I recieved excellent care.

It does go to show, however, how important it is not to hesitate but take immediate action if one has any of the standard stroke symptoms.In this case, it was a numbness in the left side of mouth and cheek.

Good advice, SusanDoris, thank you. I'm pleased to hear that you are home and can continue to dance. Events that this do give us focus on our mortality!

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.

Another irony of such a thought is that many of the most painless ways to die are also the most violent. For example, someone who is blown to bits by high explosive literally doesn't have time to experience the pain before all brain activity ceases.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant

I'm not going to second guess the early church. But praying for those who are already experiencing the undiluted Godhead is redundant.

If the saints in glory wish to pray for me, however, I'm not going to object.

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Forward the New Republic

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant

I'm not going to second guess the early church.
As I understand it, the view that the phrase "the communion of saints" gained traction and was inserted into the Apostle's Creed as a reaction to Donatism is but one of a number of theories on the origin of the phrase in the creed. Another theory is that it was a reaction to Vigilantius's objection to veneration of the saints.

So I'm not sure it takes any second guessing of the early church to say that scholars don't seem to agree about exactly how the early church "surely" meant for the term to be used.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant

I'm not going to second guess the early church. But praying for those who are already experiencing the undiluted Godhead is redundant.

If the saints in glory wish to pray for me, however, I'm not going to object.

The saints experience the 'undiluted.' but most of us need to go through purgatory first.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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georgiaboy
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It being the new year, and having just had a birthday and just returned from the requiem for a dear friend, I began a review of 'end of life' chores as follows:
  • make/update my will (it needs a few changes + a new executor)
  • review funeral instructions (these are complicated and mostly okay, but I should review)
  • find deed to cemetery plot (very important)
  • renew contact with undertakers
  • get rid of more 'stuff'(doing this, but more to go)
  • write 'skeleton' obituary(reading the daily makes me cringe, so I want mine to be ready to go except for dates, etc)
  • make list of computer, bank account passwords, access codes, etc (and let executor know where it is!)
and I'm sure there's more. And I'll get started on it, I really will! Maybe tomorrow. [Frown]

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You can't retire from a calling.

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Forthview
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Of course, in a sense there is no need for Christians to pray for those who have departed this life, just as there is no need to pray for those living in this world.

In both instances the omnipotent and omniscient God knows what is happening without our having to inform Him.

And yet Jesus asks us to pray that God will forgive us our sins, just as we are asked to forgive others.

Certainly Catholics consider it as one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy to pray for both the living and the Dead and I assume that many other Christians see it as a worthwhile thing to pray for others.

We can interpret 'Ask and it will be given to you' no doubt in a number of ways, but surely at least one of them is an encouragement ,from the words of Jesus,to pray for all.

A poster mentioned that it seemed unfair that some people had lots of prayers offered for them after their death, while others had none . It is again just the same for the living, but surely Christians can trust the Good Lord to even things out.

For what it is worth every Catholic eucharist contains prayers for all the living and all the dead, so no=one is forgotten.

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.


It's certainly how most people in general fair health would feel. I think one's attitide towards death can become much more complex and ambiguous however if one lives in daily constant significant pain, with the expectation that things will not likely change until death.

In that case, then, death is not merely some future unscheduled one-off occurence which may or may not cause unwelcome physical trauma, come the moment of demise. It can become an almost calculable circumstancem or kind of living environment - albeit of the future - mediating reconciliation between the undesirability of a continued hopeless existance and the wish to not give up, no matter how hopeless.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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That is indeed the predicament that I believe many of us, rightly or wrongly, fear the most Anselmina .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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pimple

Ship's Irruption
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I've only read the first page and it does seem to dwell too much on the practicalities - which are important. But far more important is the philosophical angle, especially for those who do not believe in a Christian sort of afterlife.

Many people spend most of their lives in denial of their mortality - especially in the relatively "safe" areas of the world. This is my understanding of the matter - though I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence to go on.

It's not just a matter of being aware of death that is important, so much as an acceptance of it as a perfectly natural and (to the community at large) beneficial transition, whether it's a transition to heaven, hell, or merely the dispersion and recycling of one's elements.

Taking children to funerals is very beneficial in my view. The "best" one I ever attended left the coffin in situ after the ceremony so that family and friends could gather around afterwards to say goodbye in their own way (an extension of the wake, I guess). It was taken by a licenced Humanist who included, at the family's request, Christian material which they felt was helpful.

[ 08. January 2016, 15:55: Message edited by: pimple ]

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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)

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