Posted                       

quote:

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Foot washer, yes I heard you say the two are "apples and oranges". Clearly I disagree.

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quote:

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I'm not sure what point you were trying to make re NT Wright (one of my favorites). As your link demonstrated, Wright is following the same line of thinking I am advocating re the sermon and re the Law. His thinking there (especially re the beatitudes) is very similar to Willards. I'm in agreement with the author of the review. 

Was that your point -- that wright is yet another author you dismiss as "new age"? Or did you not notice that the author/ wright was supporting my point?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:
Cliffdweller wrote:

quote:

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Foot washer, yes I heard you say the two are "apples and oranges". Clearly I disagree.

---

What's to disagree? The exchange with the Pharisees is about not avoiding the more important points of the law, justice mercy and love.

The Sermon on the Mount is about what the original standards were. It was not so in the beginning, Moses allowed divorce because of hardness of heart. Jesus is reinstating the original standards.

If you think the contexts are the same then you have to show it is so. Else you are making claims you can't substantiate. Just disagreeing is pointless. How ARE the two situations the SAME?

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quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:
Cliffdweller wrote

quote:

---

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make re NT Wright (one of my favorites). As your link demonstrated, Wright is following the same line of thinking I am advocating re the sermon and re the Law. His thinking there (especially re the beatitudes) is very similar to Willards. I'm in agreement with the author of the review. 

Was that your point -- that wright is yet another author you dismiss as "new age"? Or did you not notice that the author/ wright was supporting my point?

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Wright and Willard are being portrayed as having opposite views in that article.
[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:
Quote
The exact meaning of God's "rest" on the seventh day has proven difficult for biblical interpreters to understand. God does not grow tired as we humans do, so interpreters are right to point out that God's "rest" cannot mean the same thing as human rest. But then what exactly does it mean? It is here that Walton's close study of both the Old Testament and ancient Near Eastern literature helps us out immensely. Walton points out that for an ancient audience, divine rest always happens in a temple, and a temple itself is seen as a place of divine rest. Furthermore, this rest is not simply a disengagement from the now-completed world, but rather a continual involvement with its normal operations. - See more at: http://biologos.org/blogs/archive/creation-is-the-temple-where-god-rests#sthash.PcYUFtYo.dpuf [/QB]

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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I'm not entirely in agreement with Walton's article, although he makes some interesting points I'd like to explore further. But I would point out that what Walton is arguing in the article is not at all what you described previously (that "rest" = "usage"). It seems similar to the previous post-- where you provide a link as "evidence" for your position, but the link doesn't say at all what you are saying. (Surely there's a name for that-- some rhetorical fallacy?)

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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---

I'm not entirely in agreement with Walton's article, although he makes some interesting points I'd like to explore further. But I would point out that what Walton is arguing in the article is not at all what you described previously (that "rest" = "usage").

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Quote
In the ancient Near East, when they dedicated a temple, they almost inevitably used a 7-day dedication ceremony, after which the deity would come and "rest" in the temple, meaning that he would take up residence there, to engage with his people, do his work as a deity, and be their god. It was a time of celebration because the deity was no longer "remote," but present and involved.

http://www.the3rdchoice.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=10472

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quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

It seems like Willard and Stassen are scratching the perfection itch. Everybody wants to be found faithful, so it's not surprising that we apply so much interest and effort to the task.

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quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

However, the techniques they teach are suspiciously close to the self actualization techniques taught in transcendental meditation.

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If contemplative prayer is "transcendental meditation", then yeah, sure.


Learn from my mistake of yesterday: give their work a read before jumping to such conclusions.

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It seems similar to the previous post-- where you provide a link as "evidence" for your position, but the link doesn't say at all what you are saying. (Surely there's a name for that-- some rhetorical fallacy?)

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

The city your canyon overlooks must be Pasadena, which could explain a few things.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

The city your canyon overlooks must be Pasadena, which could explain a few things.

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Nope. California is a very big place, and it is full of canyons, both large and small.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Perhaps I am misunderstanding your previous point re "rest" = "usage" because again, I'm not seeing how this link supports that reading. Nor am I seeing how the understanding of Sabbath rest in this article refutes the understanding I was advocating.

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quote:

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The Significance of the Sabbath

By N. T. Wright

In the opening of the Bible…When God made the world, he “rested” on the 7th day. This doesn’t just mean that God took a day off. It means that in the previous 6 days God was making a world — heaven & earth together — for his own use. Like someone building a home, God finished the job & then went in to take up residence, to enjoy what he had built.

http://churchintoronto.blogspot.in/2012/10/the-significance-of-sabbath.html?m=1

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quote:

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It seems similar to the previous post-- where you provide a link as "evidence" for your position, but the link doesn't say at all what you are saying. (Surely there's a name for that-- some rhetorical fallacy?)

After my faux pas yesterday I decided the name for the rhetorical fallacy just might be "cliffdwellism".

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quote:

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(fyi: "she", not "he")

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quote:

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I can't imagine what in the world makes you say that. Nothing there that strikes me as "perfectionism". Indeed, I would suggest that your approach (which I'm guessing is drawn from John McArthur)-- a rigid, literal, external, and complete adherence to the Law-- is more likely to lead to perfectionism than the inner transformation that Willard and Stassen (and, I would argue, Jesus) are arguing for.

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quote:

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Quote
The Repentance View. This view, as held primarily by Lutheran and Reformed thinkers, sees the Sermon as basically Law in nature and is therefore designed, as Paul described inGalatians 3:24, to lead unto Christ; to repent of their sins and believe on Christ. Though this be one of the functions of the Sermon it does not appear to be all that the Sermon was designed for. This view can be sustained only when one sees repentance as an alternative to obedience. But, one may question the validity of that assumption.

https://bible.org/article/summary-understanding-sermon-mount

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quote:

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Quote
One of the standard things that misleads people in approaching Christian mystics is how they frequently mention the loss of consciousness of themselves in their most ecstatic experience of God. Loss of self awareness is in fact a common human phenomenon, and not one that occurs only in religious or mystical experiences. But this loss never implies, to Christian mystics, that they cease to exist as individuals or that they are absorbed into the Absolute. Theirs is a different metaphysics, which is one of persons in relationship, not of an illusory separate being dissolving into the "All."

Now of course there are many forms of mystical experience and mysticism. Even atheists have mystical experiences. But there is a clear distinction between the enduring and powerful mysticism implicit in the Christian tradition and that in the non-theistic world religions. Here we do not even raise the question of which is best. But the idea that there is a mystical life that stands free from the specific forms found among human cultures, and that one can actually live such a life in the course of routine human affairs, is simply a fanciful ideal that cannot support the weight of the personal and ethical heroism life requires of us. One can no more live a life of effectual devotion to good from the resources of "the timeless, perennial mystical tradition" than you can paint with color but no specific color.

http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=131

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quote:

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If contemplative prayer is "transcendental meditation", then yeah, sure.

Learn from my mistake of yesterday: give their work a read before jumping to such conclusions.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Footwasher: have you ever read the Psalms???

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Footwasher: have you ever read the Psalms???

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Sure, and did a comparative study of John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart and practicioners of TM and Kundalini yoga.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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So when you read a psalm, what do you do when you hit a "selah"?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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So when you read a psalm, what do you do when you hit a "selah"?

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The same thing I do when I read any Scripture other than Psalms:
SELAH (see-la) is a Hebrew word meaning 'a musicalinterlude; to pause and think about what was just said or sung; or to pause and watch for a visual demonstration of what was said or sung.'

https://bible.org/question/song-or-psalm-what-does-word-selah-mean

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
iow, when you read the Psalms, you read them meditatively. One of those types of contemplative prayer advocated by Willard & Foster, as well as those ancient mystics you find so syncretistic.

Namaste.  ; P

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quote:

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Quote
Contemplative prayer presupposes that the Christian must seek outside of Scripture to hear all that God is saying, thus Scripture loses its position as the final, authoritative Word from God. The following quotes are from Dallas Willard and Richard Foster, respectively, who are both leading teachers of contemplative prayer:

Many discussions about hearing God’s voice speak of three points of reference, also called ‘three lights’ that we can consult in determining what God wants us to do. These are circumstances, impressions of the Spirit and passages from the Bible. When these three things point in the same direction, it is suggested that we be sure the direction they point is the one God intends for us.15

Only the Bible as a whole can be treated as the written Word of God…. In any case we must certainly go beyond, though never around, the words of the Bible to find out what God is speaking to us.16

Yet, Scripture itself informs us of its sufficiency (2 Tim. 3:16–17), and of God’s final word and revelation to us in Christ (Heb. 1:1–2).

While one may indeed “hear” from an entity in the spiritual realm, the voices heard, or impressions received, may not always be from God:

There are other ‘spiritual voices,’ too…. Satan … too will speak in our heart once he sees he no longer holds us in his hand. Only if we learn to recognize this voice as well can we … correctly identify and firmly resist him and make him flee from us (1 Pet. 5:9; Eph. 6:11).17

I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as a supernatural guidance. While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on that, there are various orders of spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way! … But for now I want to encourage you to learn and practice prayers of protection.18

The Christian, however, is told to resist the devil (Jas. 4:7). This would necessarily include rejecting any practice which may engage one in direct communication with the Enemy and his servants.

http://christianresearchnetwork.org/topic/contemplative-prayer/#footnote_14_42750

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Selah and Namaste. That must exceed the daily recommended dose of foreign words for an average human being, yes?

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Ship's crimp

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
iow, when you read the Psalms, you read them meditatively. One of those types of contemplative prayer advocated by Willard & Foster, as well as those ancient mystics you find so syncretistic.

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Everyone mediates on the Scripture they read. It is a cognitive exercise. Information is received.

Contemplative prayer is an experiential act.

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quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:

Contemplative prayer is an experiential act. Spiritual forces are received. It is dangerous. I know personally of things going terribly wrong for people engaging in this activity.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:
(quoting):
Contemplative prayer presupposes that the Christian must seek outside of Scripture to hear all that God is saying, thus Scripture loses its position as the final, authoritative Word from God. The following quotes are from Dallas Willard and Richard Foster, respectively, who are both leading teachers of contemplative prayer:

Many discussions about hearing God’s voice speak of three points of reference, also called ‘three lights’ that we can consult in determining what God wants us to do. These are circumstances, impressions of the Spirit and passages from the Bible. When these three things point in the same direction, it is suggested that we be sure the direction they point is the one God intends for us.15

Only the Bible as a whole can be treated as the written Word of God…. In any case we must certainly go beyond, though never around, the words of the Bible to find out what God is speaking to us.16

Yet, Scripture itself informs us of its sufficiency (2 Tim. 3:16–17), and of God’s final word and revelation to us in Christ (Heb. 1:1–2).

While one may indeed “hear” from an entity in the spiritual realm, the voices heard, or impressions received, may not always be from God:

There are other ‘spiritual voices,’ too…. Satan … too will speak in our heart once he sees he no longer holds us in his hand. Only if we learn to recognize this voice as well can we … correctly identify and firmly resist him and make him flee from us (1 Pet. 5:9; Eph. 6:11).17

I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as a supernatural guidance. While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on that, there are various orders of spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way!

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quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:
]Selah and Namaste. That must exceed the daily recommended dose of foreign words for an average human being, yes?

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Hopefully you got that I was teasing you re your phobia re Eastern spirituality.


[ 30. January 2016, 22:39: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by footwasher:
Contemplative prayer is an experiential act. Spiritual forces are received. It is dangerous. I know personally of things going terribly wrong for people engaging in this activity.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

[QUOTE]This makes me think of a series of books by Fuller's president, Mark Labberton, which includes The Dangerous Act of Worship and The Dangerous Act of Loving Your Neighbor. Or Mr. Beaver's answer to Lucy about whether or not Aslan is safe: "of course he is not safe! But he is good." Or Wm. Shedd's famous quote, "a ship is safe in harbor but that's not what ships are for."

So sure, anything we do spiritually is "dangerous". It will change you. That's the point. And yes, there are forces at play here that are bigger than us, so we need to be thoughtful and not careless-- "wise as serpents". But we also are instructed by Jesus to go forth boldly in the power of the Spirit-- to "take back territory from the enemy" (Matt. 16:18).

I would agree that Scripture is our final and ultimate authority. I would agree that there are "other voices"-- both in the supernatural sense described here, as well as in the more mundane, natural sense just of our own agenda, and those of parents and friends and culture who send us "messages" that may or may not compete with the words of the Spirit.

But to suggest that we ONLY seek God in Scripture is to ignore the pattern we see throughout Scripture-- especially the NT. The apostles, particularly post-Pentecost, are always seeking God's leading in prayer. That is held up in Acts and the rest of the NT as a very good thing. Indeed, we would not have most of the NT at all if the early church did not value and honor the practice of "listening prayer" (yet another form of contemplative prayer). And the record of the gospels is that Jesus, too, made a habit of regularly engaging in the precise contemplative practices that Willard & Foster (and centuries of mystics before them) advocate: solitude, silence, extended contemplative prayer.

I would argue that the way that we do precisely what your quote is suggesting-- learn to differentiate the voice of God from the "other voices" (both supernatural and natural) is precisely through contemplation. Through meditating on Scripture enough to know the voice of God, the heart of God. And listening to God in prayer enough to distinguish between God's agenda and mine.

The Quakers (like Foster, so I guess one of those "new age" groups you're so afraid of) have some good wisdom on how to "test your leadings"-- including, of course, does it align with Scripture? We need to "test and see." That's the pattern we see throughout Scripture.

But more than that, I think the sort of fear-based spirituality you are advocating is a dead end. That's probably why I"m still flogging what is rapidly becoming a dead horse and veering waaay off topic. Because this is important. We are to be wise and discerning, yes, but we are not created for a life of fear. There is no life there. It seems to be precisely everything that the Pharisees were about, that Jesus has come to correct: he has come to give us life and give it abundantly. He has come to show us that God is with us-- and is available with and to us, with all that that implies.

Hopefully you got that I was teasing you re your phobia re Eastern spirituality.

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quote:

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Quote
But if your gospel focuses on the gospel of the kingdom, that we are invited to live in the kingdom of God then the basis for discipleship becomes clear. The new birth should be seen as an entrance into the kingdom of God. John Chapter 3 is not a 'forgiveness of sins' passage but a new life from above passage. Forgiveness from sins is essential - but it is not the whole package. One of the main barriers is that people see the teachings of Christ as laws that they have to obey. They are not. They are expressions of the life that comes to you, through the new birth and is naturally disposed to develop a new kind of person inside.

So when many look at the teachings of Christ, they are demoralised. They say, "I have to do these as I now am?" Of course it's impossible, but if you say instead that this is the sort of person I can become, then they open up and appear as things that are good and not an imposition.


http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=92

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
"The Sermon on the mount is to be approached with contemplative prayer?"

Why not?

"The requirement of not committing adultery is met by contemplating on the image of what a person in the kingdom looks like, [in which the contemplator?] does not even lust?"

Why not?

"Self actualization in transcendental meditation is visualising yourself as an elevated being. This leads to a state of joy, some say, ecstasy."

Not my cup of tea. Me Stendhal's holds me in good stead in the face of art and nature. And a cup of tea. That and ... shared activity.

"How does it make a person not think lustful thoughts about a desirable human being of the opposite gender passing through your field of vision?"

I don't know how a cup of tea does that, but certainly does. Even mr cheesy wouldn't disagree with that.

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Posted                      

quote:

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footwasher: Because the text teaches the right way. Confess your sin to God and He is faithful to forgive AND cleanse you of unrighteousness. Confessing is right and confessing is good. Just the act of confessing leads to approval, favour, grace, which is sufficient to land you in Christ, so that in him you can be the righteousness of God, a blessing to the world.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

footwasher: Because the text teaches the right way. Confess your sin to God and He is faithful to forgive AND cleanse you of unrighteousness. Confessing is right and confessing is good. Just the act of confessing leads to approval, favour, grace, which is sufficient to land you in Christ, so that in him you can be the righteousness of God, a blessing to the world.

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Once again, I'm impressed by the deneighbouring of it all. It is between me and God. My neighbour doesn't figure in it.

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Posted                      

quote:

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footwasher: Then this should knock your socks off:

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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footwasher: Then this should knock your socks off:

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I don't react very well to people throwing Bible verses at me. It is disrespectful, not towards me but towards the Bible.

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Posted                      

quote:

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footwasher: Then you must disprove of Christ for throwing BIBLE verses at Satan.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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footwasher: Then you must disprove of Christ for throwing BIBLE verses at Satan.

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I'm not Satan. Do you want a discussion about Psalm 51:4? I'm all up for it. But stop this bullshit.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I guess that's a no.

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Posted                      

quote:

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footwasher: 1 John 4:20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Your brother is only a foil, a canvas , a page on which you manifest your love FOR God.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

footwasher: 1 John 4:20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Your brother is only a foil, a canvas , a page on which you manifest your love FOR God.

---

So, we're going to discuss 1 John 4 now? Oh well. First, the Bible isn't a rulebook for me. I don't base my opinion on prooftexting.

But having said that, this text exactly makes my point: it is not between God and me. It is between God, my brother and me.

My brother isn't "only" anything here. Loving him means exactly that I don't reduce him to an "only". Loving my brother doesn't mean "yeah I love you, but my love for you is only a means get to what's really important for me: my relationship with God." That's not love.

Loving my brother means that my brother is important. And that implies that I can't make things between me and God; I have to include him.

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Posted                      

quote:

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footwasher: But your brother deserves non stop rotisserie action in eternal fire!

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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footwasher: But your brother deserves non stop rotisserie action in eternal fire!

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I have no idea what you're on (about). Do you think that I'm a Calvinist?

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
So we're back to Psalm 51, with a bit of Psalm 143 thrown in? I'm not going to play that game.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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footwasher: But your brother deserves non stop rotisserie action in eternal fire!

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I have no idea what you're on (about). Do you think that I'm a Calvinist?

---

Dunno about you, but David thought Uriah deserved hell fire:

Psalm 143:2Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.

And he was reputed to be in the habit of speaking by the Holy Spirit.

But then, that would only matter to you if you valued the Bible as evidence.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:
]

quote:

---

Quote
But if your gospel focuses on the gospel of the kingdom, that we are invited to live in the kingdom of God then the basis for discipleship becomes clear. The new birth should be seen as an entrance into the kingdom of God. John Chapter 3 is not a 'forgiveness of sins' passage but a new life from above passage. Forgiveness from sins is essential - but it is not the whole package. One of the main barriers is that people see the teachings of Christ as laws that they have to obey. They are not. They are expressions of the life that comes to you, through the new birth and is naturally disposed to develop a new kind of person inside.

So when many look at the teachings of Christ, they are demoralised. They say, "I have to do these as I now am?" Of course it's impossible, but if you say instead that this is the sort of person I can become, then they open up and appear as things that are good and not an imposition.


http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=92

---

The Sermon on the mount is to be approached with contemplative prayer?


The requirement of not committing adultery is met by contemplating on the image of what a person in the kingdom looks like, does not even lust?

Self actualization in transcendental meditation is visualising yourself as an elevated being. This leads to a state of joy, some say, ecstasy.

How does it make a person not think lustful thoughts about a desirable human being of the opposite gender passing through your field of vision?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:
Dunno about you, but David thought Uriah deserved hell fire:

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quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:

But then, that would only matter to you if you valued the Bible as evidence.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
cliffdweller. You do realise that something else is going on here?

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I guess not, because I'm not sure what you're referring to but your post sounds very ominous...


--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner