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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Street Children and other devastating injustices
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
I've been doing a lot of thinking about a God of love who hears and answers prayers (that's the one I believe in, by the way) and some of the incredible suffering of some in this world and thus the cries that God seems to be deaf to.
I came across this the other day. Which is definitely part of the answer.
Today, for a very silly reason, I had to go through my bin. It hasn't been emptied for a while and as the smell assaulted me, I found myself saying "God, how can we allow children to have to live on rubbish heaps in the 21st century?"
So, what is the answer for someone who is trying to earnestly follow Jesus in the wealthy West. I know how having so much more now than I did as a child, how seductive materialism is but... children! In my world, in my time.
Is it just that these kind of problems are just too big and too difficult that we bury our heads in the sand? What SHOULD we do?
I don't have answers just lots of questions.
I did look up the charity Toybox. A drop in the ocean?
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
That cartoon defines the problem precisely! "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers . . . ."
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
A long time ago I was talking to an Indian pastor about his church and the large number of social activities they were doing. Schools, meals, house-building.. but for me the important question was how they continued in their activity even when they were barely even touching the extent of the problems.
The pastor just shrugged and said that they were just doing what the could.
It occurred to me that "doing what we can" meant rather a lot more to that small Christian community in the South of India than any British church I'd ever heard of.
Another time in another country I was talking to someone about how hard it was to break out from the "cycle of poverty" and he remarked that there was an cycle "the rich" are also imprisoned within, which is also hard to break out from.
In the intervening period, I've been to a lot of places and heard a lot of different things from a lot of different people.
My conclusion is that we Europeans/N Americans/Oceanianians have got to weigh these things up for ourselves and find a way to live that we can justify to ourselves as objectively as possible.
Without wanting to get into the nitty-gritty of various professional debates, almost everything we can do (in this instance related to the issue of street-children, but also potentially with many other issues) has problems. Being a voluntourist has problems. Being a volunteer has problems. Choosing a charity to support or even sending money yourself has problems.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've done quite a lot of work with street children in Brazil. In one middle-sized city (around 2M), we managed to reduce the number of children sleeping on the streets to zero, reintegrating them with their families as much as possible, and providing alternatives as a last option. It can be done, mostly by working together with local government. The fact that Brazil was in an economic uplift at the time helped too.
So yes, if you want to contribute to this, donate to a charity that is serious about this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Another time in another country I was talking to someone about how hard it was to break out from the "cycle of poverty" and he remarked that there was an cycle "the rich" are also imprisoned within, which is also hard to break out from.
That is so true-- I want to spend some time thinking about it and letting it sink in and convict me. It seems to be related to what Jesus says in John's gospel about sin being "slavery".
Really, the question of the OP is about the problem of evil. For me, there are two aspects that we need to consider:
1. The whole notion of "inaugurated eschatology"-- that we live in a world in which the Kingdom is both "now and not yet". The Kingdom has begun and so we see signs of that Kingdom-- answered prayer, people working for justice, people choosing compassion. The wonderful testimony of a shipmate upthread of working to reunite families and find homes for Brazilian street children. Those are signs of the Kingdom. But there are also signs of the "not yet" part. There are signs that the world is not yet "set right"-- as they should be. There is poverty, war, abuse, violence.
2. So what are we to do in the meantime? The cartoon says it all. We are to choose who we will follow. And if we're following Jesus, that means participating in Christ's work. It means expanding the Kingdom, taking back territory from the enemy. Which IMHO isn't so much about evangelism (although that could be a part) but about-- that work our shipmate is doing in Brazil. The work of Black Lives Matter to end racism in the US. The work of Christians and non-Christians joining together to fight human trafficking. Anytime, anyplace, that people are working to bring about the promised Kingdom.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
And people think it's perfectly OK to use the radio to inform the nation that we should be leaving unaccompanied children, whose parents may have died en route, in the mud of the Jungle at Calais, and not bring them to join family members in the UK.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Sooner or later someone will mention the story about the starfish. So I'm going to get in first. Yes, I know. Yes, we all know. It's a cliché. But.
A. If you're that starfish or that needy person, it matters to you; and
B. Is anyone really going to argue that because we can't help every starfish, it's not fair to the others that we help the ones we do? So it's righteous not to help any of them until such time as we can persuade government, the UN or whatever to introduce a save all the starfish programme.
C. Besides, putting our efforts into raising consciousness of the starfish issue is so much easier, so much less hard work, than actually helping a few starfish.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Oh please let's not talk about the bloody starfish story. That's a license to do any idiotic thing because it is "helping that one".
That's second only on my list of hated religious tripe next to "well, something is better than nothing.."
NO. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You've got to start somewhere. Or else not start at all.
Very few of us have the resources of Bill Gates. But almost all of us can do more than we're currently doing.
So pick something. Almost any freaking thing, so long as it's legit and not hurting people. Get going.
The hardest part should be deciding what to say "no" to. There's generally an onslaught after people realize that you're willing to help and not yet overstretched.
It reminds me of that bit where Joshua is stretched flat out on the floor praying to the Lord and God says to him, "Get up! why have you fallen on your face?” and sends him immediately into action.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh please let's not talk about the bloody starfish story. That's a license to do any idiotic thing because it is "helping that one".
That's second only on my list of hated religious tripe next to "well, something is better than nothing.."
NO.
Agreed that the starfish story is overused, overhyped, over sentimentalized.
But I disagree re your overall assessment.
I serve in a very well-educated church that is very thoughtful about how they take action in the world. We are full of study groups, studiously researching each and every aspect of an issue, wanting to thoroughly understand every possible unanticipated consequence of every action. And having spent most of my life working in a different setting, knowing my fellow evangelicals have a tendency to blunder into situations full of nothing but their good intentions, and thereby thoroughly f*****g it up, I get it. Knowledge is good. Listening is good. Thoughtfulness is good.
But there's a balance. My group can become absolutely paralyzed by the complexities. Absolutely paralyzed by fear of doing the wrong thing or unintended consequences.
I'm sorry, in most cases "doing something" IS better than doing nothing. Yes, do your research. Yes, listen to the people who you want to serve-- let them tell you what they want or need. Yes, partner with others who have been working in the field longer than you. Yes, do all that good diligence.
But then do something.
It may turn out your good intentions are inadequate, or have unintended consequences. That's common. But it's the only way we learn what works and what doesn't. So have good evaluation rubrics in place to assess that. Be willing to switch gears, recalibrate, redirect, as you go along.
But do NOT let the complexities keep you stuck in inaction.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You've got to start somewhere. Or else not start at all.
Very few of us have the resources of Bill Gates. But almost all of us can do more than we're currently doing.
So pick something. Almost any freaking thing, so long as it's legit and not hurting people. Get going.
No, that's insane advice. If you don't know what you are doing, you have absolutely no idea whether what you are planning to do will help or hurt.
After the Haiti disaster, the place was inundated with idiots "getting going" and there were stacks of donations of completely useless things piling up because people needed to feel like they were doing something - when actually what they were doing was not helping. Unfortunately many Christians just can't hear very well when professionals tell them that their "good intentions" are not enough.
Similarly today in Calais. Just stop, find out what is actually needed by those who know and do something useful rather than whatever first comes into your head.
quote:
The hardest part should be deciding what to say "no" to. There's generally an onslaught after people realize that you're willing to help and not yet overstretched.
In some circumstances managing volunteers who are eager but clueless is a significant drain on resources. In some situations the only thing you might be able to usefully do is give money to someone who knows what they're doing.
quote:
It reminds me of that bit where Joshua is stretched flat out on the floor praying to the Lord and God says to him, "Get up! why have you fallen on your face?” and sends him immediately into action.
Sigh. Give me strength.
[ 26. January 2016, 14:55: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mr cheesy: Oh please let's not talk about the bloody starfish story.
And next to the starfish, there was a single line of footsteps in the sand …
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
So pick something. Almost any freaking thing, so long as it's legit and not hurting people. Get going.
No, that's insane advice. If you don't know what you are doing, you have absolutely no idea whether what you are planning to do will help or hurt.
I understand your reasoning, but I do feel that you're being a bit harsh here. If by "any freaking thing, so long as it's legit", Lamb Chopped means donating to any serious charity then yes, by all means.
About charity work being done by professionals vs work done by "amateurs", yes your examples are valid, but I feel that things are a bit more complex than that. I'll think a bit more before I try to react on that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Read for comprehension. Doing your due diligence before leaping in to action is exactly what I meant by "so long as it's legit and not hurting people".
Due diligence need not take the rest of your life. In a great many cases it takes only a few minutes.
What are you advocating, that we refrain from action at all?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It's easier to do it one person at a time, than to have the wholesale social change to rectify problems like we have in La Loche. The link discusses 20 suicide funerals and 127 attempts in a town of 3000 in a year. There is something like 80% unemployment, very limited health, social, addictions and mental health services. Fetal alcohol and other substances affecting normal development is high. It is common in such communities to see people drinking outside, huffing (inhaling gasoline vapours) and physical violence. When people travel to other communities to appointments they will commonly bring the entire family because the children will be victimised if left alone. The social breakdown is pretty well total, and hasn't changed much in many places in Canada's north since I first travelled there in the 1970s. They become the street people in our cities, with all the exploitation, crime, death that this entails. It makes me think that revolutionary change is required and that it is impossible for individualistically oriented societies to possibly address these unless basic economic and social injustices are met. Which, among many other things, is why I thought Pope John Paul II was very wrong when he came out against Liberation Theology in another context.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
What SHOULD we do?
Charity is good, but it isn't enough.
How you vote matters. It is awareness beyond voting, how you talk to your friends and how you help raise awareness for everyone and what you let politicians get away with. Consumerism without conscience needs to end. Consumerism itself needs to be reduced.
Reduce your greed and selfishness.
All this takes a minimum effort, all this is free.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Agreed with the comment about the rich being trapped in a cycle too.
The moment I heard about the Paris bombings, it solidified a sense of calling for me to join the religious life and live a life of prayer. As in, literally that was my immediate thought. Not out of running away, but using prayer as a way of healing for the world. Now how God can possibly use prayer for that has no practical answer, yet I feel it is what God is calling me to do. I know such a life is not going to be a common calling, but I think those of us in affluent circumstances (relative or absolute) need to be awake to ways in which we can break out of that cycle of the rich.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You've got to start somewhere. Or else not start at all.
Very few of us have the resources of Bill Gates. But almost all of us can do more than we're currently doing.
So pick something. Almost any freaking thing, so long as it's legit and not hurting people. Get going.
No, that's insane advice. If you don't know what you are doing, you have absolutely no idea whether what you are planning to do will help or hurt.
Well, I kind of sympathize with your line of reasoning, and to an extent I sympathize with similar things (like some of thoughts of the effective altruism movement).
I think the important thing is not allowing the initial impulse to do something to be completely satisfied with actually doing something - but to go further than that and look at second order effects and systemic faults.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Another time in another country I was talking to someone about how hard it was to break out from the "cycle of poverty" and he remarked that there was an cycle "the rich" are also imprisoned within, which is also hard to break out from.
You mean like poor people struggling to buy food and a rich person struggling to buy another yacht are both struggling?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I always find it annoying how admired the super-rich seem to be. Words used like "giving back". Getting their names on a hospital or museum, sponsoring a university chair in their favourite industry, and otherwise bending the society's social needs to their desires of what they want to fund. And then the defence that it is their money and they are kindly donating it.
Well, they took it before they gave back, and then hid the excess profits from taxation, and even were able to get reduced taxes by making the donations.
In my city and province, we need funding for basic social and mental health/addiction services. Direct help to people. But the answer to needy children question is a large, expensive, heavily sponsored children's hospital. The children of places like La Loche (see above) don't need a hospital.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You mean like poor people struggling to buy food and a rich person struggling to buy another yacht are both struggling?
I heard an interview the other day with a rich man. He had an income of several hundred thousand dollars, a big house, kids in private schools, and generally lived an expensive lifestyle, and yet he felt he was struggling.
He had got himself into the mindset that all the things that most people would regard as expensive luxuries were essential; all his friends and neighbours had the same lifestyle so there's nothing to break him out of his skewed perspective. He was "struggling" in the sense that he was spending all his income and needed to budget for big expenditures. He thought he was rich, and so shouldn't have to worry about money, bit it just wasn't happening for him.
The fact that this was caused by his choice to live an expensive lifestyle rather passed him by. He could move a little way away, to a neighbourhood where everyone makes one or two hundred thousand dollars, and he'd feel like he was infinitely rich, because he would have different comparators.
But in his little bubble, he was "struggling".
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You mean like poor people struggling to buy food and a rich person struggling to buy another yacht are both struggling?
I heard an interview the other day with a rich man. He had an income of several hundred thousand dollars, a big house, kids in private schools, and generally lived an expensive lifestyle, and yet he felt he was struggling.
But in his little bubble, he was "struggling".
I was reminded of this article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/gods-bankers-how-evangelical-christianity-is-taking-a-hold-o f-the-city-of-londonrsquos-financial-2270393.html
"We need to earn a living and we need to provide for our families – the Bible says that, doesn't it? And actually, in this day and age, if someone earns £1m, I mean firstly you're giving 80 to 85 per cent away in taxes – income tax, national insurance, VAT – then you provide for your family's education, shelter, warmth; at the end of the day, there's not much left for what you might call yourself.""
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm sure that rich people have their struggles. But I don't think that comparing them with the struggles of the poor is very useful.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh please let's not talk about the bloody starfish story. That's a license to do any idiotic thing because it is "helping that one".
That's second only on my list of hated religious tripe next to "well, something is better than nothing.."
NO.
What would be your "yes?"
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Read for comprehension. Doing your due diligence before leaping in to action is exactly what I meant by "so long as it's legit and not hurting people".
Due diligence need not take the rest of your life. In a great many cases it takes only a few minutes.
What are you advocating, that we refrain from action at all?
I help homeless folks. Few people who desire to help actually *hurt* them, though there are times when the volunteers we rely upon do or say something that is demeaning. Still, due diligence is an important concept!
Ask what the agency needs before taking a guess and going all-out to provide for a need folks don't have. I've been saddled with all kinds of unneeded stuff that was given out of a true sense of love.
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yep, I have too. In our case it's all the would-be missionary volunteers, as well as those who gather teddy bears, Western-style food, and too-large clothing for Vietnamese immigrants.
The due diligence thing is very necessary.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Lamb Chopped: The due diligence thing is very necessary.
I agree, but to me it's about more than due diligence. The way I understand the term, it has mostly to do with avoiding fraud. That's important, and not giving culturally improper food etc. also is. But to me, the crux lies in addressing the power imbalance. You have money (or time), they have a need, and that gives a power imbalance. This is what can be damaging if not handled well. You can never reduce the power imbalance completely to zero, but there are many ways in which you can reduce it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I mean firstly you're giving 80 to 85 per cent away in taxes – income tax, national insurance, VAT – then you provide for your family's education, shelter, warmth; at the end of the day, there's not much left for what you might call yourself.""
First, that includes things nearly everyone pays. The VAT on expensive items is higher, so, yeah.
All shelter is equal, of course. As is the ability to borrow against it if need be. And the access to a credit line in emergencies, etc.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'm sorry to have introduced a tangent, but I think there are several misunderstandings about what I said.
First, I'm not talking about the 1% "super-rich", I'm talking about all those who live within a relatively wealthy bubble of western consumerism.
Second, I'm not trying to draw a moral equivalence between the "cycle of poverty" and the "cycle of wealth" - I was just pointing out that it exists.
Poor people often cannot do anything to change their really shitty situation. Those with forms of inherited privilege (and I think one could include those who have inherited good sanitation, good healthcare, clean water provision) have done nothing to deserve these things and can do almost nothing to extend the provision of them to others. We - you and I, the top 20% of the world's population - use much more than our fair share of many resources, have much more spent on us than others can earn in a lifetime (education, healthcare, etc) and so on. There is very little that we can do to change this imbalance. Even with our best efforts, those without sanitation do not suddenly become connected to a well-functioning sewerage and potable water system. In most situations the best they can expect is to be moved on from "no sanitation" to "really basic and probably really bad" sanitation. Many will still die from faecal diseases spread by poor water and sanitation systems that the top 20% usually pay very little for and barely think about.
The fact is, in my opinion, that most/many people are not able to do much significant about the major problems in the world - and we're frequently in denial about the impact that we have when we give money to our favourite charity or sign an online petition. The change that would need to be made on a global scale to significantly change the situation of the most desperate billions - so that they lived lives we would find acceptable for our own grandparents - would require a massive change to our own lives. And we're not willing and not able to do that, because we're trapped in this cycle of wealth.
And a big part of that is that even our best efforts, our best intentions, our best moral positions and best urges are corrupted, often without us even being aware of it. If anyone wants to see the reality of "original sin" you only have to see how western charity gets delivered to the poor.
Unless one has a personal connection (and sometimes not even then due to confirmation bias), we have almost no way to tell whether we are doing anything helpful in any given situation we're trying to help. Usually we're so addicted to the fluffy feelings we get from "doing something" that we bypass anything beyond very superficial "due diligence" (actually I think there is a lot more to be said on that point, but that's a tangent for now) and pitch in to the latest glossy advertising campaign or picture of dying children that comes into our vision. Unfortunately we church-goers are convenient targets for those who use these kinds of desperate fundraising techniques to keep their organisations going.
So the tl;dr version is that very very often we're actually hurting the very problem we're trying to help.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Unless one has a personal connection (and sometimes not even then due to confirmation bias), we have almost no way to tell whether we are doing anything helpful in any given situation we're trying to help. Usually we're so addicted to the fluffy feelings we get from "doing something" that we bypass anything beyond very superficial "due diligence" (actually I think there is a lot more to be said on that point, but that's a tangent for now) and pitch in to the latest glossy advertising campaign or picture of dying children that comes into our vision.
Yes, I think you are right in pointing out that Christians have a particular tendency to fall prey to certain types of narratives because of our beliefs.
Similarly, our initial 'fluffy' feeling should be re-examined, and lead towards an ever more reflective engagement with attempts to challenge injustice.
That said, I do think that the idea that it is impossible to deal with things systemically because of the effects it would have Western lifestyles is a council of despair - and it seems to me to often be put about as an excuse in influential bits of the media. Firstly, until conversations are started all radical changes are always impractical Secondly, to a certain extent it isn't true - unless we are talking about everyone adopting the same levels of consumption of those in the West, in which case we run into environmental effects.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
That said, I do think that the idea that it is impossible to deal with things systemically because of the effects it would have Western lifestyles is a council of despair - and it seems to me to often be put about as an excuse in influential bits of the media. Firstly, until conversations are started all radical changes are always impractical Secondly, to a certain extent it isn't true - unless we are talking about everyone adopting the same levels of consumption of those in the West, in which case we run into environmental effects.
It isn't intended to be cynical or a council of despair, just an observation of the real state of things. When examined almost everything turns out to be more complicated than first thought and very often there are moral downsides (which we might not have thought of) with all courses of action.
I think the answer is that we need to take a lot more time to think as clearly as we can before doing anything. We need to listen to professionals and not rubbish their experience thinking we know better (and/or that God has sent us on a mission to do something really stupid). We need to learn to look beyond the glossiness and the dubious propaganda put out by charities and try to soberly look at the impacts of these things. We also need to resist the idea that we are trying to help a named individual (something charities often wield to get more donations) unless we actually know that individual.
I think all of that takes a lot of work, and that it is clearly an easier thing to do when considering a need closer to home than one further afield.
All of that adds up to a few things: we need to retain a high level of humility. We might be wrong (due to lack of information, even sometimes because we've been duped), sometimes we might feel like we're doing the right thing and it turns out we're not.
Second we need to be flexible enough to listen when people give good reasons for saying that what we're doing is not good, and learn to work hard to improve.
Finally, and most importantly in my view, we need to stop thinking that this whole issue is about us. It isn't. If the end result of whatever we're doing is a warm glow but not help to the group or person involved, there is a serious problem.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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