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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is in valuing my life, for its own sake, that makes me stronger. It has made me more compassionate, more actively charitable and less self-focused. Not that I am perfect at this, it is a journey, but devaluing exterior validation has brought greater connection with that exterior.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Spot on, lilBuddha. Without church, without God, life is a overflowing torrent, in which I bathe.

It struck me that the value that I used to place in God and Christ has now spilled over into everything. Ironic, or what? It's an enlargement.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I was thinking about all religions throughout the world, their literature, their great art, their architecture, their influence on the understanding of morality, politics, social structures, education, philosophy etc, etc, etc. Some of it is historical and some of it is very much current and alive.

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If religion was to be removed from all of this all over the planet in the literal blink of an eye, you would be talking about a catastrophic collapse of religious systems...

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...cultural understanding, educational aspects, literary genres, moral systems, art movements, architectural aspirations, philosophical systems, historical understanding, political movements etc etc etc.

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The practical side of it would dictate that a great many people would suddenly find themselves unemployed, possibly in mental turmoil, possibly the target for hatred and in the position of scapegoating.

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Remember, removing religion will not remove our immense capacity for stupidity.

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[snip]Add to this the general mental demise of those who find the whole thing too depressing to contemplate, the millions who would feel their sense of hope had literally evaporated overnight or who found profound meaning in something they now know to be a fraud. The result of that alone doesn't bear thinking about.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is in valuing my life, for its own sake, that makes me stronger. It has made me more compassionate, more actively charitable and less self-focused. Not that I am perfect at this, it is a journey, but devaluing exterior validation has brought greater connection with that exterior.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Spot on, lilBuddha. Without church, without God, life is a overflowing torrent, in which I bathe.

It struck me that the value that I used to place in God and Christ has now spilled over into everything. Ironic, or what? It's an enlargement.

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That's great if you're built that way. I'm not. If value is something we make up ourselves--if the same is true for truth, purpose, meaning--I might as well go hang myself. I wouldn't be able to fool myself into believing whatever I constructed--I would always be seeing through it, and the whole thing would fall apart like wet toilet paper. My position would be quite similar to that in Ecclesiastes, only without a God.

It's similar to the way some people exhort others to "just believe" (or alternately, "just stop believing that"). Belief is not a voluntary function for me, one that I can turn on or off as I please. And it boggles my mind to know that this is apparently not the case for a great many people. Like, how do you do it????

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Belief is not a voluntary function for me, one that I can turn on or off as I please. And it boggles my mind to know that this is apparently not the case for a great many people. Like, how do you do it????

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Originally posted by que sais-je:
There seem to be some who, when an argument convinces them, just swap beliefs.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Maybe that's where the confusion comes--I don't equate value with liking. There are things I do because I like them, but I can't kid myself and think they have any intrinsic value as such. There are other things I do because they do have value (for example, volunteer work), even though the work itself is very dislikable (fighting with the immigration bureaucracy, shudder).

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hatless: I think the event that could demonstrate the non-existence of God has already happened: the crucifixion of Jesus.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

Anyway, no point in continuing.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, now you are misquoting me. I didn't equate value with liking; I gave it as an example of 'a connection between me and something else ... lots of feelings, thoughts, symbolism and so on'.

Anyway, no point in continuing.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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hatless: I think the event that could demonstrate the non-existence of God has already happened: the crucifixion of Jesus.

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Wow, that's a good one.

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Originally posted by rolyn:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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hatless: I think the event that could demonstrate the non-existence of God has already happened: the crucifixion of Jesus.

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Wow, that's a good one.

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Yes, that must be why the disciples, after their leader was dispatched, shrugged their shoulders, shuffled off back to their fishing boats never to be heard of again.

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Originally posted by hatless:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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hatless: I think the event that could demonstrate the non-existence of God has already happened: the crucifixion of Jesus.

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Wow, that's a good one.

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Yes, that must be why the disciples, after their leader was dispatched, shrugged their shoulders, shuffled off back to their fishing boats never to be heard of again.

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They did shuffle off back to their fishing boats. Not quite the end of the story, though.

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Originally posted by hatless:
They did shuffle off back to their fishing boats. Not quite the end of the story, though.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'd like to think that most people would still be able to find hope and meaning in their lives without the promise of pie in the sky.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

It's almost a cliché that the mainstream church clergy don't necessarily tell their congregations what they really believe, for fear of damaging their faith, and losing them from the church. If this involves out and out atheism, some find they have to hide their atheism, although there are others who openly retain their niche in the church. There are philosophical organisations they can join, such as the Sea of Faith.

I just think, though, that since most clergy are already nervous of getting too theologically radical with their congregations...

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With the caveat that I couldn't get your first link to work, I would suggest it's only a cliche because people (although you're the only one I know) keep saying it. A few anecdotal stories as I suspect your link will show do not a trend make. Meanwhile, there are, as you well know, scores of clergy right here on the Ship-- where anonymity would protect them if they wanted to "come out" as an atheist or some other radical theology to terrible to tell their congregants-- and yet I don't see anyone here confessing to such a dire thing.

I find your continual references to this supposed but apparently unsubstantiated "fact" incredibly offensive. But I've told you that before. Whatever.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Svitlana is somewhere in the UK, but it seems that all of the clergy there (wherever it is they reside) are theologically illiterate, incapable of communicating anything effectively, up to their necks in hypocrisy and exercise a deceit in living a lifestyle they don't actually believe in. It sounds quite awful and we really only can but pray for her.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know why you put the word 'fact' in quotes. I didn't use that particular word, or claim that anything was 'factual'. A cliché is an overfamiliar idea (or phrase, etc). It may not tell the whole truth. In fact, it probably doesn't, as it's a blunt instrument, a stereotype. The cliché in question (which I modified with the word 'almost') may not even be informed by much actual contact with mainstream church clergy.

But the problem is that you seem to think I'm presuming to speak for your context when I bring certain issues up. That's not the case. I wouldn't dream of telling an American evangelical and intellectual 'how it is'. Your experience is obviously going to be very different from mine, and I wouldn't argue about that.

However, I live in an English city, and the churches I attend generally have smallish, elderly congregations. Most of the members are not particularly intellectual. Of course, some CofE churches (and even some Methodist and URC ones) are well-heeled, youthful and cerebral, but the scenario I'm in is fairly common. That being the case, it's understandable if the clergy don't feel they can share everything with their congregations. (I've heard clergymen say this more than once.) It's not that they're not trying to be duplicitous, and I don't think they're cynical people.

Having said that, atheism is obviously very extreme, and I wouldn't say it's widespread in the British clergy. Apparently 2% of CofE clergy are atheists, and 16% are agnostics. The older ones seem to be less certain than the younger ones. And there are obviously different ways of being an atheist. Some clergy will see it as compatible with their priestly role while others will struggle in some way.

I think there are few clergy on the Ship who don't necessarily share all their unorthodox theological perspectives with their congregations. But perhaps that discussion needs a thread of its own.)

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Marvin, you points are fair enough, but you must admit, surely, that you're indulging in examples of the very worst stereotypes of 'religion' in order to make them.

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Originally posted by Macrina:
I actually don't think anything much would happen at all.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But without the ability to claim divine sanction for their evil they will be less able to recruit others to their cause, or to justify their actions to the wider world.

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Originally posted by Macrina:
...If people want to read this stuff it's out there, it's out there in post modern theologians, in Biblical criticism, in neuroscience, in Biology, in physics - we already have enough evidence to suggest to us that God as conceived in Christianity most likely does not exist.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But without the ability to claim divine sanction for their evil they will be less able to recruit others to their cause, or to justify their actions to the wider world.

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Doesn't the divine sanction help the good guys to recruit as well?

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The good guys don't need divine sanction to the same extent, because the things they're trying to get people to do are good. There's no law against doing good things, and they don't come with any social disapproval. People would want to do them anyway.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The good guys don't need divine sanction to the same extent, because the things they're trying to get people to do are good. There's no law against doing good things, and they don't come with any social disapproval. People would want to do them anyway.

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Nice theory, but for instance I don't see much evidence of an innate desire to spend more money on charity than on personal possessions in many of us. I think there's quite a strong innate desire to be selfish.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Having said that, atheism is obviously very extreme, and I wouldn't say it's widespread in the British clergy. Apparently 2% of CofE clergy are atheists, and 16% are agnostics. The older ones seem to be less certain than the younger ones. And there are obviously different ways of being an atheist. Some clergy will see it as compatible with their priestly role while others will struggle in some way.

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Originally posted by gorpo:
Only 2%? I think the number is irrelevant, since a large percentage of people who won´t declare themselves to be atheists engage in some type of theology that defines any specifically religious belief as "myth", including the ressurrection and the incarnation. And that seems to be the NORM, not the exception in mainline protestantism.

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Originally posted by que sais-je:
The real problem would be if the Deity's existence was not only confirmed but She told us 'which' God she was. Perhaps fundamentalist Islam is the only true way! Maybe God supports the Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Originally posted by hatless:
I think the event that could demonstrate the non-existence of God has already happened: the crucifixion of Jesus. Muddled local politics and thoughtless brutality get the better of the world's best ever hope. Worst of all, when you think about it, it was obviously going to end this way; hope and love versus fearful power? A no brainer.. It always will end this way, always has done. The cross is the death of Jesus and of God, or of the hope that there might be a God.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The good guys don't need divine sanction to the same extent, because the things they're trying to get people to do are good. There's no law against doing good things, and they don't come with any social disapproval. People would want to do them anyway.

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Nice theory, but for instance I don't see much evidence of an innate desire to spend more money on charity than on personal possessions in many of us. I think there's quite a strong innate desire to be selfish.

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Originally posted by gorpo:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Having said that, atheism is obviously very extreme, and I wouldn't say it's widespread in the British clergy. Apparently 2% of CofE clergy are atheists, and 16% are agnostics. The older ones seem to be less certain than the younger ones. And there are obviously different ways of being an atheist. Some clergy will see it as compatible with their priestly role while others will struggle in some way.

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Only 2%? I think the number is irrelevant, since a large percentage of people who won´t declare themselves to be atheists engage in some type of theology that defines any specifically religious belief as "myth", including the ressurrection and the incarnation. And that seems to be the NORM, not the exception in mainline protestantism. The question "why are they priests if they don´t believe in God?" is not hard to answear. Well, they do it because it´s their job. If they weren´t paid for that, or had the capacity to find any other job that would pay as much, then they´d probably not even be church-goers, let alone priests.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Firstly, I want to make it clear that I never said that a lot of ministers are atheists.

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My original point was that the clergy in historical denominations don't necessarily share their unorthodox theology with their congregations, and that this is fairly well known. This unorthodox theology may include atheism, as I implied, but in most cases surely it doesn't.

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Secondly, I ought to emphasise that there are cultural differences in play here. That 2% figures refers to Anglican clergy in England, Wales And Scotland. However, my impression is that American 'mainline' churches, TEC in particular, have a much larger liberal contingent than is the case in Great Britain, which is where I live. The USA, after all, has a wide choice of evangelical/conservative alternatives, whereas GB is dominated by one denomination that has to be all things to all men. The alternative denominations here, whether liberal or conservative, are far more limited in terms of numbers, demographics and geographical presence. And even the moderate non-Anglican clergy (for example, in the slightly more liberal British Methodist Church) will be aware that there are some conservative members in their congregations.

Perhaps what this means is that American mainline clergy feel more able to be open about their liberal beliefs. As I say though, I'm aware that some mainstream clergy in GB do have more solidly and openly liberal credentials, and the kinds of people who worship with them will be fully aware of what that means. In general, though I think it's more likely to be something intimated and felt rather proclaimed loudly from pulpits.

You live in Brazil. I understand that various forms of evangelicalism are currently very strong there. Maybe this means that your experience is similar to the USA's - your mainline (or mainstream, as we say in the UK) church ministers are freer to pursue a more openly liberal theology because they know that most of their more conservative church members have already left, due to the plethora of evangelical/conservative alternatives.

What do you think? [/QB]

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No. The church I´m in has a lot of conservatives. You won´t find clergy being open about their "non-beliefs". You will find clergy preaching only about social justice, gender ideology and ecology. If someone say that we are all sinners and need to repent and have faith in Jesus in order to be saved, this person is going to be mocked or furiously criticized for being a "fundamentalist".

When all sermons are filled with stuff that any atheist left-wing person could agree 100%, and the mere affirmation of a creedal dogma is furiously attacked as being "fanatical", then you come to the conclusion that God and the christian religion have become irrelevant. They will not openly deny it because their job depends on that, but will simply avoid and roll their eyes over it.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Ah, I see. But you seem to find the situation with the clergy rather frustrating. The obvious question is, why would you stay in such a church when you have so many alternatives available?

You don't have to answer that question, of course; the point is that all of us, whether clergy or laity, have to look at the pros and cons when it comes to choosing or remaining at a particular church. The theology preached is a highly important factor, but evidently not the only one.

With regard to the OP, then, perhaps a church with clergy like yours would have a fair chance of reinventing itself and surviving. But it would still lose members.

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gorpo: Where I live, there is only one traditional protestant denomination. The other churches are either catholic or pentecostal.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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gorpo: Where I live, there is only one traditional protestant denomination. The other churches are either catholic or pentecostal.

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What else would you want to become? Orthodox?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by gorpo:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Having said that, atheism is obviously very extreme, and I wouldn't say it's widespread in the British clergy. Apparently 2% of CofE clergy are atheists, and 16% are agnostics. The older ones seem to be less certain than the younger ones. And there are obviously different ways of being an atheist. Some clergy will see it as compatible with their priestly role while others will struggle in some way.

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Only 2%? I think the number is irrelevant, since a large percentage of people who won´t declare themselves to be atheists engage in some type of theology that defines any specifically religious belief as "myth", including the ressurrection and the incarnation. And that seems to be the NORM, not the exception in mainline protestantism. The question "why are they priests if they don´t believe in God?" is not hard to answear. Well, they do it because it´s their job. If they weren´t paid for that, or had the capacity to find any other job that would pay as much, then they´d probably not even be church-goers, let alone priests.

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Firstly, I want to make it clear that I never said that a lot of ministers are atheists. My original point was that the clergy in historical denominations don't necessarily share their unorthodox theology with their congregations, and that this is fairly well known. This unorthodox theology may include atheism, as I implied, but in most cases surely it doesn't.

...What do you think?

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
What else would you want to become? Orthodox?

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Hey now.

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I couldn't resist

(I realise this is a tangent. Gorpo is talking about Brazil. The Orthodox church has a small but beautiful presence in that country. I know a number of Orthodox clergy, and I'm honoured to call them my friends.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Originally posted by Mr Clingford:

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Originally posted by Macrina:
...If people want to read this stuff it's out there, it's out there in post modern theologians, in Biblical criticism, in neuroscience, in Biology, in physics - we already have enough evidence to suggest to us that God as conceived in Christianity most likely does not exist.

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That's a bit of a stretch, quite a claim.

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