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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: There's an Irish Election!
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
There's an election in the Republic of Ireland on Friday, February 26. It looks like coalition negotiations will be difficult, because polls seem to show that Fine Gael and Labour won't have enough for a majority together, and neither would Fianna Fail and Labour - and FG and FF seem unlikely to work in a coalition (FG has explicitly said they won't). The protest vote seems to be largely going to Sinn Fein, which is interesting. They won't get a majority by themselves, and I'm not sure that any major party would be willing to work with them (what about FF? Not sure). Do young supporters of SF not care much about the Civil War and Troubles issues that make other parties reluctant to work with them?
Here is some analysis of the polls thus far. I find it interesting that the categories of "Social Class" are AB, C1, C2, DE, and Farmers. Does anyone know what the letters mean in terms of income or anything else?
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/poll
For those who know - what are the main issues in this election? Is it mostly about the economy and austerity? What are people talking about, venting about, etc?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Stonespring, this method of classifying people sociologically is so standard in Anglophone Europe that it's quite a surprise to get the impression it is not familiar elsewhere. Readers of the Irish Times will understand the categories. The addition of Farmers as a separate category is an interesting adaptation to Irish society.
Here is a simple summary of what the letters mean.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've seen these letters in Brazil also.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Stonespring, this method of classifying people sociologically is so standard in Anglophone Europe that it's quite a surprise to get the impression it is not familiar elsewhere. Readers of the Irish Times will understand the categories. The addition of Farmers as a separate category is an interesting adaptation to Irish society.
Here is a simple summary of what the letters mean.
Do clergy generally get grouped into one of those classes?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Stonespring, this method of classifying people sociologically is so standard in Anglophone Europe that it's quite a surprise to get the impression it is not familiar elsewhere. Readers of the Irish Times will understand the categories. The addition of Farmers as a separate category is an interesting adaptation to Irish society.
Here is a simple summary of what the letters mean.
The use of letters A-E to refer to social classes sounds ominously like the Alpha Pluses and Epsilon Minuses of Brave New World. Not sure if this ABCDE terminology for social classes existed back when Huxley was writing that book, though.
But that's not the main thrust of this post. Any Irish election watchers with observations? What changes could or could not possibly come about as a result of this election? Will an unclear outcome be damaging for Ireland's recovery? Does SF have a chance of becoming a "major" party that might in future years, if not now, be involved in government? How much are voters expected to punish the FG-Labour government and why?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Stonespring, this method of classifying people sociologically is so standard in Anglophone Europe that it's quite a surprise to get the impression it is not familiar elsewhere. Readers of the Irish Times will understand the categories. The addition of Farmers as a separate category is an interesting adaptation to Irish society.
Here is a simple summary of what the letters mean.
In Stonespring's defence, I never heard the categories used when I was in Ireland in the 1970s-- a quick reference to an Irish academic friend got me the information that they were known in professional circles at the time, but not much outside them. Obviously, since then graduates of sociology have infiltrated the press!
Those who are vaguely interested in the current incoherent Canadian discussions on electoral reform will want to watch the Irish election carefully to see the practical workings of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I once asked a colleague what the difference was between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and he said it was kind of like the difference between shit and shite.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
I was here for the last general election (2011) but not registered to vote - we're registered this time but I'm not really sure who to vote for. Here's a few different issues some people seem to be concerned with (though there may be more that I forget)
- water charges - these were introduced by the current FG-Labour government, previously water infrastructure was funded by central taxation which meant that hardly any money was invested into it and there's a lot of work needs doing - however the water charges are super unpopular and are seen as the latest in a long line of extra taxes.
- Universal Social Charge - this is an additional income tax which was introduced in the most recent recession. It was supposed to be temporary and most parties except SF are promising to reduce it or phase it out.
- Housing - very little housing has been built since circa 2008/2009, as a result rents are getting less and less affordable especially in the cities. Also the rent allowance which people get on social welfare is quite often a lot less than rents that are being charged, so people end up struggling to find anywhere to live. Also the homeless shelters struggle to accommodate the demand because they can't move out the people to long term accommodation which doesn't exist, so the emergency shelter is always full (even though they've increased the number of beds in it)
- Abortion - is probably on some people's lists of concerns, i'm not sure any of the parties have a particular stance on it though.
- Health - the current government were introducing free GP visits for children but I think they announced that they won't be expanding that past what's already been done.
I'm still not sure which of the parties I disagree with least so I'll probably end up voting for an independent candidate (for first preference)
Oh yes - all the constituencies here are multi-seat constituencies so the single transferable vote thing works a bit better I think? I'm not sure
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
16% seems a lot more than normal for Sinn Fein in the Republic.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Major cover ups on child sexual abuse.
Safe passage and protection given to known paedophiles.
Head criminal bosses declared as peace makers a week before they are jailed.
TD's who spent vast sums on Christmas cards
A leader who goes on live TV to talk about economic reform and is exposed as not even understanding basic level maths.
Vast sums of money discovered that none of them can account for.
TD's chumming up to convicted murderers.
.......to say nothing of their terrorist past in an age of Isis.
Sinn Fein are curiously untouchable. I swear there are shenanigans and vote rigging going on here. Any other party with this list of asshattery would be long gone out of Ireland.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Well I guess that if your traditionally best known policy platform involves blowing people up, other crimes seem mere peccadilloes in comparison.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
It looks like there will be a FG minority government with unofficial support from FF so FF can still act like they are the opposition going into the next election. Do you agree?
FG seems to have played the very good hand they were dealt in terms of Ireland's economic performance since the last election very poorly in this campaign.
Does Labour have much of a future?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Labour doesn't have much of a future, sadly. I think it will be quite a few years before they come up the polls again.
It seems likely that FG and FF will enter some kind of coalition together. None of the main parties want to go into government with SF. How SF got all the votes they did frankly beggars belief.
It might last a year (hopefully) and then when we are all past our 1916 fervour that none of us are getting terribly fervent about, and FF and FG have put to bed old civil war politics we might have enough time to see a new party arise that isn't based on anti abortion clauses (Renua), dancing at the crossroads in la la land with leprechauns (SF) or 'OUTRAGE about my own shadow' (most of the Independents) then we might actually have a interesting and fairly good time.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Two of my Irish friends told me that they voted for SF-- one with a first preference, and the other with her third going to a succesful candidate. However, neither want to see them in government. I enquired of one of them, and she said that their new deputy was an engaged and active local councillor, and deserved the promotion; but she felt that there were too many of an older generation hanging around and "we know what they were up to twennty years ago," referring to knowledge or participation in dreadful violence.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
That sounds... like really not enough of a reason to vote SF.
[ 29. February 2016, 17:38: Message edited by: TurquoiseTastic ]
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
we might have enough time to see a new party arise that isn't based on anti abortion clauses (Renua), dancing at the crossroads in la la land with leprechauns (SF) or 'OUTRAGE about my own shadow' (most of the Independents)
I thought most of the independents were outraged about their particular corner of the country not getting the above-average share of government spending it so obviously deserves. But maybe I've just seen one Healey-Rae too many...
In the one corner, the die-hard republicans. In the other, it's Dail seats becoming hereditary and pride in the kingdom.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Well I guess with the Brothers Healey-Rae ensconced for The Kingdom at least you won't have to go through all that malarky of crowning an old goat out in Killorglin ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
As an outsider I think I must agree with the opinion voiced here that independent MPs often win just because of their personality or family and that they are mostly concerned with bringing more government money to their districts. If independents are key to getting bills passed in this Dail things could be quite chaotic.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Well Independents only got two more seats than they did in the last election in 2011, so I think we'll call off the apocalypse for the moment.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
here's an interesting summary of the different options for coalitions:
Irish Times
at the moment it looks like either:
a) Fine Gael and Fianna Fail will end up in some kind of coalition
b) either Fine Gael or Fianna Fail will form some kind of minority government
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
As an outsider I think I must agree with the opinion voiced here that independent MPs often win just because of their personality or family and that they are mostly concerned with bringing more government money to their districts. If independents are key to getting bills passed in this Dail things could be quite chaotic.
My Irish friends tell me that independents are appreciated as it is felt that they can represent their constituents without having to trim their efforts to ministers' and parties' requirements and many people have constructed a mental vision of ministers in state cars versus their local independent in a dented car going from one broken main to another.
One, however, sensibly pointed out that independents have no access to those situations where decisions, particularly strategic ones, are being made-- they are relegated to housekeeping duties. She also said that the municipal councillor writ-large role is what most people like and it makes good copy for the press.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Major cover ups on child sexual abuse.
Safe passage and protection given to known paedophiles.
Head criminal bosses declared as peace makers a week before they are jailed.
TD's who spent vast sums on Christmas cards
A leader who goes on live TV to talk about economic reform and is exposed as not even understanding basic level maths.
Vast sums of money discovered that none of them can account for.
TD's chumming up to convicted murderers.
.......to say nothing of their terrorist past in an age of Isis.
Sinn Fein are curiously untouchable. I swear there are shenanigans and vote rigging going on here. Any other party with this list of asshattery would be long gone out of Ireland.
Even if the choice is between candidates with a record for corruption, tax evasion and financial crime, and candidates with a record not just for corruption, tax evasion and financial crime but also for blowing people up and murder, I'd prefer candidates who only go in for corruption, tax evasion and financial crime. But then, hey, it's not my country.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Do voters in the Republic of Ireland tend to think of one party or a group of parties as the "good guys" and another party or a group of parties as the "bad guys"? How does the level of polarization among the parties differ compared with the US, UK, and other countries? How often do people switch parties from election to election?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
What's different abkut Ireland us that because the two main parties have organisational continuity with the two sides in the civil war in the 1920s, there are people with strong tribal loyalties to a party that are unconnected with any present-day policy.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
What's different abkut Ireland us that because the two main parties have organisational continuity with the two sides in the civil war in the 1920s, there are people with strong tribal loyalties to a party that are unconnected with any present-day policy.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Sorry for double copy - put it down to the low quality of Irish rural broadband...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
What's different abkut Ireland us that because the two main parties have organisational continuity with the two sides in the civil war in the 1920s, there are people with strong tribal loyalties to a party that are unconnected with any present-day policy.
But are there some young voters who see the parties in more of a right vs. left way? Or young voters who switch parties from one election to another?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Not necessarily. SF are seen by many young people who swallow the rhetoric, as the liberal left. The rest, who can think beyond soundbites, end up voting independents, some of whom are very good, but their effectiveness is government is questionable. Some would argue strongly that a vote for an independent is a wasted vote but if you don't have a familial and historical connection to any of the civil war parties, if you don't want to vote SF or any other of the nutter parties or if you don't want to vote Labour or SD's, then all your left with are the independents.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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