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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bringing people back to God.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
This is one of my big problems with so much of the church today. In putting so much effort into supporting the institution, there is so little in looking forward to a post-institution world and making that a better place.
In truth, a church group who were to focus on post-institution faith support would probably find that they grew, both numerically and in terms of change and moving on.
The church is not dying. Only the institution is dying.
This. Throughout this thread, I've been thinking a lot about Jesus' counter-intuitive, "upside down" sayings, and particularly "the only way to gain your life is to lose it." Perhaps that applies not only to individuals, but to churches as well.
Two cases in particular came to mind for me-- two quite different churches in style/focus, but both illustrating this, I think:
1. One is of a Pentecostal church plant here in inner-city L.A. The denom. put in a very young pastor, the son of a Texas megachurch pastor (aside: I get the impression if you leave a KJV Bible on a park bench in Texas, a megachurch will spontaneously erupt around it). The denom. put this young guy, fresh out of seminary, in a church plant in one of the most economically blighted areas of L.A. And it failed. After a few years, the denom. gave the pastor warning that they would be cutting off funding/shutting it down in a few month's time. Pastor feels like a failure, especially given the high expectations placed on him due to his lineage. After some soul searching, he decided if the church was going to die, they should go out acting like a church. So he started just walking the neighborhood, knocking on doors (literally), asking his neighbors one household at a time, "how can I serve you?". After awhile, some of the elders started joining him. Today it is one of the largest megachurches in L.A., and had to purchase a former hospital bldg to house all of the various ministries/ programs that were begun to serve their neighbors. But they still have the practice of sending out teams to designated neighborhoods after church every Sunday to just knock on doors and ask, "how can we serve you?"
2. A bit further north, another evangelical church plant up in Portland. After much prayer and conversation with GLBT members and neighbors, the pastor felt an absolute conviction that the church needed to be explicitly open and affirming. The evangelical denom. cut ties/funding, and 1/2 the members left. It's unknown at this point if this story will have the more classic happy ending of the one above-- last I checked in, their finances due to the above were precarious. And yet, I was moved by the pastor's response. The reaction of the denom and the members who left was not unanticipated-- he knew that was the likely response. And he knew that it might end the church, at least financially. And yet the pastor wrote that this might be part of the greater mission of this particularly congregation-- to die so that the message of inclusion and reconciliation would live.
Very different stories, very different churches, but I think both illustrating that "in order to gain your life you must lose it" may be key to this whole authentic church life thing.
[ 02. March 2016, 12:49: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
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Originally posted by mstevens:
There's a popular metaphor about the church offering medicine for the sick - these days I think the first thing you need to do is convince people they actually are sick.
Not sure about this. I think a lot of people believe that the church thinks them sick. The problem is convincing people that the church has any more answers than anyone else. Your list touches on some of the reasons why this is not very obvious.
What I find interesting is that, having left church, it is far easier to see from the outside how it appears, in a way that I couldn't while a part of it. The impression from the outside is generally not good.
I think I sort of agree and sort of disagree? I'm not sure I can explain this clearly. When the church works (for me!) it hits a sense of morals people (I) already have - picking something a bit drastic, maybe you're a kleptomaniac and a bit worried about your tendancy to steal stuff, the church pitch is "it's a real problem, and we have the solution".
Whereas what people actually get most is "gays are sick", when to most people they look perfectly healthy, AND most people who make that kind of claim have turned out to be pretty unpleasant - it taints any claim from the church to know anything.
I am sort of with you here. But I think the church saying "it's a real problem, and we have the solution" is challenging. I have depression - the church does not have a "solution" for that. What the church should be saying, IMO, is "That is a real problem, and we think we can offer help and support".
I think the church is seem by many as saying "We can define your problems and sort them out". That sounds like a con to me. "Your sexuality is the problem, and we can fix it" is damaging because a) it isn't a problem and b) you can't fix it.
As you say, while the church may be superb at helping for some things, the perception is so negative, people will struggle to approach and see what the attitude is.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Yes-- but it's a problem of expectations in both directions.
What the church has to offer is spiritual direction-- helping believers to understand their own challenges and life experiences in light of the bigger story of God, help in listening to God and what s/he is saying in any particular circumstance, and support in living that out in one's own unique situation. That alone is more than enough for any day's work.
But, no. Instead, churches are expected-- and all to often represent themselves to be-- experts on a host of other things-- relationship problems, finances, business matters, health & wellness, and yes, sexuality. It's like your gyno offering to give your car a lube job (no pun intended-- well, maybe just a little) while you're in there. The expectations come from both those showing up on our doorstep and from our willingness to market ourselves as cut-rate therapist/ accountant/ business manager/ life coach. Small wonder, then, that disappointment and frustration are frequently the end result when we offer ourselves as omnibus expert on everything.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I like the lube job. Lubrication of all kinds catered for, from car to bedroom. GynoRod at your service.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Here is a question for you, though, Cliffdweller ..
How come we hear such stories from the US but never here in the UK?
Anyone knocking on doors and asking how he might serve people over here would either be told whete to get off or else still be knocking doors in 50 years time with little but worn boot leather to show for it.
It could be - for now - that we still have the NHS and other social services serving people on the way this bloke was ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Here is a question for you, though, Cliffdweller ..
How come we hear such stories from the US but never here in the UK?
Anyone knocking on doors and asking how he might serve people over here would either be told whete to get off or else still be knocking doors in 50 years time with little but worn boot leather to show for it.
It could be - for now - that we still have the NHS and other social services serving people on the way this bloke was ...
Well to be fair, I have two such stories, not 200 or even 20. And I don't know that Matthew Barnett (the first story) didn't get a whole lotta doors slammed in his face (these parts they're apt to think you're a Mormon or Jehovah Witness coming to proselyte).
My point was not that this is common in the US-- it's not-- nor that it was always successful in American consumerist terms (i.e. more butts in pews or $$ in the offering plate)-- the first one was, the other remains to be seen. What stood out to me in both stories was rather how unusual they were, how counter-cultural, in being willing to suggest that a church "dying" might be part of a bigger narrative where that would be OK. I'm just intrigued and inspired by these two small witnesses as a possible way to look at "dying well" in congregational terms the same way we do individually.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat. Confucius
Religion is like a blind man looking in a black room for a black cat that isn't there, and finding it. Oscar Wilde
The patient doesn't know what his illness is. The doctor is fixing a problem that doesn't exist. Me ( unless someone else said it first).
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
did footwasher lose his faith? I'm sorry to hear that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
On the contrary, that's good news. As long as something more functional, more meaningful, more coherent fills the void. It is painful and scary, but the debrided baby can remain drained of bathwater.
If He does not, because He was never there really, no matter. All will be well, healed, restituted. In the resurrection. In the mean time, one hopes for recovery, for a new start, in conversation. An earnest of transcendent rebirth, of standing again.
If you have lost your former story, footwasher, you can tell another of that, from that. Redeem it. Here. So, what's your story? How did you come to your beliefs and lose them? If that's what's happened.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... I understood the point you were making, Cliffdweller ... but whether these stories are one-offs or representative of broader trends they just sound completely alien from the perspective of UK religion - and yes we have Mormons and JWs knocking doors too.
The aspect I was wondering about was what form did the service to the community take?
Sure, there are gaps and the NHS, NGOs and so on don't cover all the bases - and I can see churches and other faith groups attempting to fill those gaps ...
But what form did this service take? What did it consist of?
What would be the equivalent on a rural area, say, rather than downtown LA?
How could a group in a different socio-economic and cultural setting to downtown LA arrange a 'good death' for instance?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hmmm ... I understood the point you were making, Cliffdweller ... but whether these stories are one-offs or representative of broader trends they just sound completely alien from the perspective of UK religion - and yes we have Mormons and JWs knocking doors too.
The aspect I was wondering about was what form did the service to the community take?
Sure, there are gaps and the NHS, NGOs and so on don't cover all the bases - and I can see churches and other faith groups attempting to fill those gaps ...
But what form did this service take? What did it consist of?
What would be the equivalent on a rural area, say, rather than downtown LA?
How could a group in a different socio-economic and cultural setting to downtown LA arrange a 'good death' for instance?
In the case of the LA church I mentioned, the early acts of service that result from the pastor and later a few elders knocking on doors were very simple things-- a bag of groceries, ride to the doctor's office, that sort of thing. The weekly teams that still go out to local neighborhoods do similar sorts of things.
The larger ministries that grew out of that include
quote:
We do this through mobile hunger relief and medical programs, residential rehabilitation programs adults, a shelter for victims of human trafficking, transitional housing for homeless families, foster care intervention programs, job skills training, life skills, counseling, basic education, Bible studies and more. - See more at: http://www.dreamcenter.org/about-us/#sthash.dirQFrBZ.dpuf
I've had some experience of their ministries in my work in a nearby city, and would vouch for them-- their work is impressive. The church itself is happy-clappy Pentecostal so not everyone's cup of tea of course.
Yes, I think it would look very different in a rural setting. Or even, as we saw in the other example I cited, the Portland church plant that is still struggling to survive after becoming open & affirming of LGBT Christians.
Of course, lots of churches serve their neighborhoods. My job title currently is "Pastor for Urban Outreach" so that's what I do as well, albeit nowhere close to the scale of Dream Center. Other shipmates have described similar ministries they are involved in. The difference/point I was making was not that DC was unique in serving their neighbors. I was making the point that there may be something powerful in a church being willing to accept institutional "death" as part of their calling. That Jesus' call to "lose your life in order to gain it" might apply to the church as well as individuals. That there is something powerful that comes when you let go and are willing to just serve/follow Christ even if it means letting go of everything. (And that our efforts to "bring people into the church" may be counter-productive for precisely that reason).
Again, only two case studies to consider, and one as yet still resolved, so no quantitative research, just musing aloud about Jesus' teachings and the odd workings of the Kingdom...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The moral seems to be 'Sometimes a/the church must die in order to be resurrected'.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
My rector used to say that God was thumping on the church door, trying to get in.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The moral seems to be 'Sometimes a/the church must die in order to be resurrected'.
Well, that was the point I was laboring to suggest. Or at least, be willing to die. Or that, conversely, making survival of the institution a goal is ironically the thing most likely to kill it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
My rector used to say that God was thumping on the church door, trying to get in.
Would it have better if God had been trying to get out?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
My rector used to say that God was thumping on the church door, trying to get in.
Would it have better if God had been trying to get out?
That assumes that he's inside. I think my rector was saying that he wasn't, a rather bold claim, but I suppose rhetorical exaggeration. I'm happy to think that he's inside and outside, although I suppose that messes with lots of theology, maybe.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
My rector used to say that God was thumping on the church door, trying to get in.
Would it have better if God had been trying to get out?
That assumes that he's inside.
I liked the joke though.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
My rector used to say that God was thumping on the church door, trying to get in.
Would it have better if God had been trying to get out?
That assumes that he's inside. I think my rector was saying that he wasn't, a rather bold claim, but I suppose rhetorical exaggeration. I'm happy to think that he's inside and outside, although I suppose that messes with lots of theology, maybe.
Like you, I think He's everywhere!
I think the rector had a deeper message to impart.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure - thanks Cliffdweller ... I was simply wondering aloud ...
I'm sure the work that church does in down-town LA is impressive ...
And yes, in principle I'm with you - that a 'good death' in terms of not clinging onto something for the sake of it but actively releasing it and 'letting it go' is a powerful thing ...
A lot to think about there.
I think there's an issue, though, about post-rationalisation ... if something simply runs out of steam and closes down then we could try to 'spiritualise' that in some way ... rather than simply accepting that it ran out of steam and closed down ...
But I take the point you're making.
We had a very liberal vicar here in one of the Anglican parishes who wasn't at all bothered whether his church closed - he thought the building would make a great restaurant. Actually, I disagree, I think it's a terrific church building and it does act as a good venue for concerts and events too ...
His successor seems to be trying to turn it round and make a good fist of it ... which is what I feel to be the best approach until such time as the situation does look to be untenable. I'm not sure they're there yet ... but youngsters and kids are very, very thin on the ground there in a way that they aren't at the evangelical parish.
I suspect, though, that any institution - and not just churches - is going to be unwilling to positively 'give up the ghost' ... but as you say, there's all the 'unless a grain of wheat ...' stuff.
Sometimes something has to die in order for there to be a resurrection as other posters have observed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
In Scotland, there is a really depressing number of churches that have either been sold off or are on the market ready for conversion (an unfortunate turn of phrase).
I have read that about 3/4 years ago, the Presbyterian Church had recorded a mere 5000 baptisms.
Are we addressing the wrong issues on this website?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, we have NOTHING to say, except to each other. Like 99...% of 'praise' and 'worship' services.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I don't know if any church can "bring people back to God" but there are practical things we can do to encourage people back to church, if only we can be bothered to get the views of people who aren't regulars at our services.
For the past 10 years or so my place has informally asked that those of us with friends who visit and come to a service - especially non-churchgoers - encourage feedback and pass it on. And when we in our turn go to different churches we pass on for discussion and possible action anything we have encountered that seems particularly welcoming or useful. Some of the comments and suggestions have been enlightening, and while we thought we were pretty organised we try to take on board what our visitors find grating or odd. In particular: - getting sidespeople to smile and say "good morning"
- having a supplementary order of service which explains what is happening in the liturgy
- ensuring that orders of service aren't dog-eared and that the contents are easy to follow, especially rubrics
- not engulfing them in a tide of well-meaning flesh-pressers at The Peace
- offering refreshments at the end with a Church Guide in case they want to explore the building, rather than chat
- having good quality coffee, tea and biscuits
- play bags for younger children and orders of service specifically for them
- orders of service and the parish magazine available in large print versions
- keeping Notices that are read out to a minimum
- having noticeboards that are tidy, well-presented and relevant
- adjusting the heating clock so church is warmer than it used to be
We are very much a community church: other denominations aren't present without undertaking a journey of more than 10 miles so we do our best to ensure that those members of our congregation who were brought up in different traditions don't feel marginalised or uncomfortable. We are very aware that we are a church for the whole village, not just those who are nominally CofE.
Part of this involves using those traditional customs which may have lapsed elsewhere: we have Plough Sunday, on Rogation Sunday we have a walk around the local farms with prayers, reading and hymns, every villager who has died is remembered by name on the anniversary of the death and at All Souls, etc, etc, etc.
I don't know about leading people back to God but we do seem to bring people back to church, and even some into church who haven't been before. Yes, there aren't many in the 35-50 age range but we grit out teeth, take their children in Sunday School (amazing attendance thanks to a CofE secondary school in the nearest big town) and try to entice them to stay once the school place has been obtained.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
It doesn't hurt to remember that (although this may be different in those countries where there is a religious education component in the schools) a huge chunk of the population has no idea what happens in churches. Many people, now in their 20s and 30s, were raised in families with almost no church experience or knowledge. Their information about church life is garnered by channel surfing past television evangelists, the occasional glimpse of a papal ceremony on the national news, or a few minutes observing the scene of the bishop baptizing Ragnar, all conflated with scenes from Game of Thrones. They also go to weddings. That's it.
One my Orthie friends was complaining about this to his spiritual father, an immigrant priest who had done gulag time, and asked what could be done to remedy this. The answer of fasting and perhaps a few decades of sacrifical witness was not what he wanted.
Whatever one thinks of the Issue, there is a simple fact that most young people (in Canada, at any rate-- shipmates from other countries must do their own analysis) are raised in a rights culture, and perceive that the churches are homophobic. Protests that one's own parish isn't don't seem to change this perception. The overwhelming media presence of television evangelicals and the RCC have set public perception for the time being.
Some useful approaches are possible to overcome the ignorance-- if there are Open Doors programmes in your neighbourhood, this can bring in hundreds who visit various historical buildings. Music programming also provides an opportunity to get people in the building and time for a brief explanation of a congregation's work (aside from the valuable public service of providing a place for music in a community).
At the same time, there are many with a strong yearning for spiritual development. They rarely associate study groups with this, but they are intrigued by meditation, including the more spiritual form of yoga. Telling them that you are having a group work on the Book of Acts will not have much resonance for those who have never heard of it-- my favourite here was seeing a session entitled Synoptics for Seekers.
Perhaps with an aging population a focus on end-of-life discussions, and providing opportunities for spiritual care for mourners???
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
My church is trying a 'front porch' kind of outreach. The idea is to get people who know nothing of churches onto the front porch -- close, but not inside, so they can get an idea of what's going on. These events are always one-shot, intensely attractive and child-friendly, and arguably not religious in nature. I have waded waist-deep in children at the Halloween Trick Or Treat event, bucked seething hordes of bibliomanes at the August Used Book Sale, and worried about the fire marshal shutting us down at the Christmas Carol sing because we were stacked to the rafters.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah we all experience that Brenda. But why ON EARTH would anyone want to come week in, week out to a concert interrupted by a lecture?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We clearly cannot win on entertainment grounds. There will always be something more thrilling to do with the time: on Netflix, outdoors, at restaurants, with your drinking buddies. I believe my church's current pitch is the community aspect -- exhibiting the body of believers, and hinting that you could join it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We clearly cannot win on entertainment grounds. There will always be something more thrilling to do with the time: on Netflix, outdoors, at restaurants, with your drinking buddies. I believe my church's current pitch is the community aspect -- exhibiting the body of believers, and hinting that you could join it.
Totally agree. I think the best thing we can do is be who we are-- a community of broken, flawed, often quirky people seeking God-- as authentically and transparently as possible, and tangibly demonstrate welcome those who are interested in what that's all about. It won't be what everyone is looking for all the time, or even most people most of the time. But there will be people who find themselves at a point in their lives where that's what they're looking for, and they'll appreciate the open door without all the smoke and mirrors.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
As someone who would love to be able to attend a weekly meeting where there is singing, a routine of words which make one think afresh each time they are repeated (I do not use the word 'inspirational' because it tends to make me wince!, with an opportunity to hear organ music played well, etc, I am sorry that such is not available minus mention of God at present. The biggest problem I think all churches with diminishing numbers have is that there is no God that any of them can bring people back to. To try to encourage people to have faith in something which is not available to any of their senses or to investigation or testing no longer works as it did in the days before the information age. Why should anyone believe in miracles when they know what medicine can do? Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Please do not think that this is just an atheist negative point of view though, because this whole thread has been most interesting. I am all for just about everything done in a community by the people in them and would strongly defend their right to do so in the buildings and in the name of their chosen God, but just wish it could be realised that the idea of God is not a required element.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Do you really think that people 2,000 years ago didn't understand what happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
There was, perhaps still is, an atheist "service" discussed on Ship a couple years ago. Does anyone know if they're still going? London, i think.
Seems a little odd to me, like having a wedding without the couple, but whatever.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As someone who would love to be able to attend a weekly meeting where there is singing, a routine of words which make one think afresh each time they are repeated (I do not use the word 'inspirational' because it tends to make me wince!, with an opportunity to hear organ music played well, etc, I am sorry that such is not available minus mention of God at present.
Really? It offends you so much if someone mentions God that you must stay away? And yet, you have no issue with our speaking of God on the Ship.....
Without it being about God, there would be no point in Church Worship Services. There are plenty of organ and choir concerts, and singsongs, where God is not worshipped or mentioned at all. There are lots of 'inspirational' speakers captured on Youtube who don't mention God at all. Why are they not satisfactory?
As others have said, many have not left God, but they have left church as the people who attend are not the image of perfect Christians. Rather we are fallible human beings, hopefully allowing the Holy Spirit's guidance in our lives so that we will grow in patience, kindness, self control, gentleness, love of others, etc. These attributes in action help others to see God too. They might even come to Church, to find out more about the living God we worship. We can hope and pray, and do our best.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes it is still going and doing rather well.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes it is still going and doing rather well.
I love it - these are all the reasons I still attend Church.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone knocking on doors [in UK] and asking how he might serve people over here would either be told where to get off or else still be knocking doors in 50 years time with little but worn boot leather to show for it.
My point was not that this is common in the US-- it's not-- nor that it was always successful in American consumerist terms... What stood out to me in both stories was rather how unusual they were, how counter-cultural, in being willing to suggest that a church "dying" might be part of a bigger narrative....
Catching up. The stories are not about knocking on doors but finding out what people here in this neighborhood personally need. And that carries a risk - Someone needs a ride to the doctor one time, but someone else is on dialysis and needs a ride twice a week forever during normal work hours (when you have fewest volunteer), so the fear is being overwhelmed by the needs. Or fear they taking advantage of you by sending you to fetch groceries so they can stay home and watch the soaps.
Fear means nothing gets tried. But that can be handled by recognizing limits - don't knock on the second door until the first one's need has been met, and don't enable a person's ongoing dependency instead of problem solving.
But also, the effort was about the church being outward looking instead of expecting people to come to the building to serve the needs of the building and the institution.
But also, something Cliff Dweller mentioned, the spiritual awareness, how are people's needs being met in ways only God awareness fully offers? If we focus on projects any secular club can offer, are we doing the full job of a church?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What a lovely idea.
Aye Brenda. Community. That would be nice. But again, where's the community in a concert interrupted by a lecture?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Do you really think that people 2,000 years ago didn't understand what happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
No of course I did not think that. However, from ancient times and cultures there have always been very large numbers of people who were convinced that some spirit or soul could survive. As far as I know, the only ancient culture that had atheists prepared to express such opposing ideas were the ancient Greeks. quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As someone who would love to be able to attend a weekly meeting where there is singing, a routine of words which make one think afresh each time they are repeated (I do not use the word 'inspirational' because it tends to make me wince!, with an opportunity to hear organ music played well, etc, I am sorry that such is not available minus mention of God at present.
Really? It offends you so much if someone mentions God that you must stay away?
No, it certainly does not ‘offend’ me – as a church-goer for half my life, I fully understand how one can feel as a believer. I used the word ‘wince’ because now, as an atheist, I would so much want to dispute the idea of and belief in God, that it would be wrong of me to spend my time at a CofE service. quote:
And yet, you have no issue with our speaking of God on the Ship.....
Yes! That’s because it is always so interesting to read all the different viewpoints. The only discussion group near enough to me has a rule that religious questions are not allowed – but that sort of philosophical discussion would be the most interesting part. The reason was that people might be offended. Well, such precious sensitivity rather inhibits discussion, doesn’t it? quote:
Without it being about God, there would be no point in Church Worship Services. There are plenty of organ and choir concerts, and singsongs, where God is not worshipped or mentioned at all. There are lots of 'inspirational' speakers captured on Youtube who don't mention God at all. Why are they not satisfactory?
I agree with that of course, but the ‘but’ here is that I need taking to and guiding at concerts; I’m a bit old for inspirational stuff, but thank you for the suggestion re you tubes etc. quote:
As others have said, many have not left God, but they have left church as the people who attend are not the image of perfect Christians. Rather we are fallible human beings, hopefully allowing the Holy Spirit's guidance in our lives so that we will grow in patience, kindness, self control, gentleness, love of others, etc. These attributes in action help others to see God too. They might even come to Church, to find out more about the living God we worship. We can hope and pray, and do our best.
Very interesting - thank you. On Sunday morning, as I was doing my usual walk and hearing the church (recorded!) bells, I did give a passing thought to directing my steps that-a-way, but immediately decided I preferred the exercise and (with hearing aids on) listening to the bird song all around. quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes it is still going and doing rather well.
Jengie
Thank you for posting the link.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: As far as I know, the only ancient culture that had atheists prepared to express such opposing ideas were the ancient Greeks.
It is always difficult to impose a modern word like 'atheism' on ancient cultures, but it is arguable that the Samkhya, Mīmāṃsā, Jain and Cārvāka schools in India (all several centuries BC) can be described as atheist.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SusanDoris: As far as I know, the only ancient culture that had atheists prepared to express such opposing ideas were the ancient Greeks.
It is always difficult to impose a modern word like 'atheism' on ancient cultures, but it is arguable that the Samkhya, Mīmāṃsā, Jain and Cārvāka schools in India (all several centuries BC) can be described as atheist.
Thank you - I have had a look at Sankhya in wikipedia. Interesting. Indian cultures still involve a great deal of praying to various gods though, don't they, even though they do not appear to have a one creator god. I will read more.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: Indian cultures still involve a great deal of praying to various gods though, don't they, even though they do not appear to have a one creator god.
I'm sure that, try as they might, they won't be able to live up to your standards of atheism.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The biggest problem I think all churches with diminishing numbers have is that there is no God that any of them can bring people back to. To try to encourage people to have faith in something which is not available to any of their senses or to investigation or testing no longer works as it did in the days before the information age. Why should anyone believe in miracles when they know what medicine can do? Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Why indeed. If it was so obvious to rational people that theistic religion was bunk, why do you think we still believe in it?
As far as I can see, you've just got to accept that we really believe in it, despite being relatively rational.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Indian cultures still involve a great deal of praying to various gods though, don't they, even though they do not appear to have a one creator god.
English cultures also involve a great deal of praying, but that doesn't exclude atheism as a philosophical standpoint among some of the English.
Buddhism also classically denies a creator God but does allow for many beliefs that would be regarded as supernatural.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sure that, try as they might, they won't be able to live up to your standards of atheism.
There are, of course no 'standards' of atheism! I lacka belief in any god. And that's the best definition of atheism. quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If it was so obvious to rational people that theistic religion was bunk, why do you think we still believe in it?
It wasn't 'bunk', it was humans, having evolved with the ability to think about and question their existence and their surroundings, coming up with the answer that there must be a cause, which had many names and forms. quote:
As far as I can see, you've just got to accept that we really believe in it, despite being relatively rational.
Well, unfortunately I can't disagree with that!! I shall, however, maintain my optimism that by the time I die quite a few more of the world's population will have come to the same conclusion as atheists. quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
English cultures also involve a great deal of praying, but that doesn't exclude atheism as a philosophical standpoint among some of the English.
Buddhism also classically denies a creator God but does allow for many beliefs that would be regarded as supernatural.
Oh dear! I do of course have to agree with you too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I shall, however, maintain my optimism that by the time I die quite a few more of the world's population will have come to the same conclusion as atheists.
Why? Even if you are right, what possible gain would there be?
It seems to me that you so value your own faulty thinking that you are unable to see anything good in the other position.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
To Hosts: If this post is a bit OTT, Please let me know. quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I shall, however, maintain my optimism that by the time I die quite a few more of the world's population will have come to the same conclusion as atheists.
Why? Even if you are right, what possible gain would there be?
Okay. Fortified by coffee and a (well, two actually) slice of toast and marmalade, with feet tucked into my electrically-heated footwarmer, and having to wait indoors instead of being out in the sun because of a delivery, I will try and answer!
Human nature being what it has evolved to be, with enough strong and basically good survivors to allow for the large number whose aim is to destroy others for a whole list of excuses to exist, it is inevitable that there will always be a mixture. However, the good that a lack of belief in any God/god/s could do is to enable people to understand that all the knowledghe, all the behaviours, all the good and all the bad is done by humans, entirely by humans. There would be no need for time to be spent (I wil refrain from using the word 'wasted' here) in acquiring all the gold and silver ware, rich vestments, palaces, planes, cars, etc etc for the leaders of religions and all the energy involved could be spent on education of young people, so they learn and understand the history and reasons for all religious beliefs; on providing clean water, and all the other good things we in the developed world are lucky enough to have; on better communication of the above; on finding ways to re-direct the violent, ddestructive nature of terrorists into more tolerant ways of behaving.
Yes, I know that is an unreachable goal and that there are good people everywhere who do their best to work toward improving the life of others, but if they are doing it in the name of any god, or think there is any god providing any kind of back-up, then the parts of their minds that are used by this could be totally focused on the fact that human thinking is 100% of it. quote:
It seems to me that you so value your own faulty thinking…
Can you think of a reason why I should agree with your description of my thinking as ‘faulty’?! quote:
t…hat you are unable to see anything good in the other position.
Of course it is obvious that there is good in the ‘other positionin the same way that every single human has a genetic make-up which gives them a set of characteristics ranging from the horrible to the very good. Very few indeed are wholly reliant on themselves and do not need any other human being at all for any aspect of living from when they become independent until their death. After all, one of the main reasons for our species survival was the co-operation amongst groups of humans.
At this point, please imagine me saying the words of the woman who, at the end of several series of Morecambe and Wise shows, would advance from the back of the stage, fling them apart and say, ‘Thank you for coming to my little show,’ or, in this case, ‘reading my post’!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Yes, I think we should all get back to having wars about territory, about oil, about resources. We could have human rights abuses and still do nice stuff like digging wells for clean water. We could argue and riot about politics and the rich - poor divide. In the future we will likely have riots, uprisings, wars and terrorism about wealth and even basic stuff like food and clean water access. But atheism will solve all of that because human beings are all so wonderful and kind and good that we will live in a complete utopia where not one solitary person will ever think to themselves, 'I am better than that person' or, 'I deserve more than them.'
I think this has to be the biggest crock of shit post I've ever read here. If you can't see faulty thinking in it, well I have no words....
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Yes, I think we should all get back to having wars about territory, about oil, about resources. We could have human rights abuses and still do nice stuff like digging wells for clean water. We could argue and riot about politics and the rich - poor divide. In the future we will likely have riots, uprisings, wars and terrorism about wealth and even basic stuff like food and clean water access. But atheism will solve all of that because human beings are all so wonderful and kind and good that we will live in a complete utopia where not one solitary person will ever think to themselves, 'I am better than that person' or, 'I deserve more than them.'
I think this has to be the biggest crock of shit post I've ever read here. If you can't see faulty thinking in it, well I have no words....
Hold your fire, Tex! Unless I'm being unfairly generous to Susan Doris, her point is that atheism doesn't offer anything—that's the point. Atheism is not a philosophy or way of life; not any more than how you define yourself by your lack of belief in fairies or Thor.
K.
[ 22. March 2016, 11:16: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Do you really think that people 2,000 years ago didn't understand what happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
No of course I did not think that. However, from ancient times and cultures there have always been very large numbers of people who were convinced that some spirit or soul could survive.
Well, that's different from what you said. Originally, you asked why anyone should believe in resurrection when they know what happens to the body at death. Now you've switched to talking about souls or spirits, which by definition are not bodies.
I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that souls do not exist. And there are, of course, atheists who believe that people have souls that live on after death.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
[QUOTE]
I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that souls do not exist.
Are you for real? I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that proves there isn't a magical purple donkey living on one of the moons of planet Zingbo.
K.
[ 22. March 2016, 11:30: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Komensky:
quote:
Hold your fire, Tex! Unless I'm being unfairly generous to Susan Doris, her point is that atheism doesn't offer anything—that's the point. Atheism is not a philosophy or way of life; not any more than how you define yourself by your lack of belief in fairies or Thor.
You're being unfairly generous. She is arguing that old, old, tired and weak argument that religion is the cause of all ill in society, that without it we would all be so much better, that atheism is a sort of solution in a non-solution sort of way. Now that's a Facebook argument for the Fox News generation. It shows no respect for anyone, least of all the people you are having a 'reasoned' debate with. It boils down to playground debate where feigned politeness hides an ugly truth.
Atheism has much to commend it, but it is far from apparent here.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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