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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » To protest or not to protest? That is the question.

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Source: (consider it) Thread: To protest or not to protest? That is the question.
Gramps49
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As you well know, Trump has not been able to run the field tonight. It now looks like he will have to gain 60% of the remaining delegates in the primary season. Which means my state is very much in play. Usually, it is not. We are basically icing on the cake when it comes to the nomination.

Which means you know who is coming to place nearby.

He has to be stopped.

Now I am an old war protester from way, way back. A number of my friends have already said they will be out there to protest already.

Things have gotten ugly. There are even reports now that Trump supporters are developing their own militia, called the Lion Guard to go after protesters. While their site claims to be nonviolent, some of the statements in their comment section indicate otherwise.

Frankly, I am getting to the point of wondering if I am too old for this stuff.

But I also believe silence gives consent.

If you were my age, and you had the opportunity, what would you do?

[ 16. March 2016, 03:03: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

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Frankenstein
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If Trump is aiming at the White House, God help us.
We get a lot of coverage this side of the pond.
He has a great ability of gaining support.
I will admit, American Politics is beyond me.

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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?

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cliffdweller
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I would never want to presume to make a decision like that for someone else. But the fact that it is a real and valid question says volumes about how low we have sunk as a country and the incredible lows of Trump's version of "leadership".

Whatever you decide, go with God.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Things have gotten ugly. There are even reports now that Trump supporters are developing their own militia, called the Lion Guard to go after protesters. While their site claims to be nonviolent, some of the statements in their comment section indicate otherwise.

Fantastic. A nonviolent guard to support Trump with a name based on Mussolini quote. This could be a spoof I suppose - there are only a few comments so hard to see how seriously it is being taken.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
A nonviolent guard to support Trump with a name based on Mussolini quote.

The quote seems particularly ironic, coming from a supposedly Christian candidate during the season of Lent.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Alan Cresswell

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There should be someone making sure that Trumps' security are all in a clearly identifiable uniform. I hear brown shirts are popular for such things.

As for protesting, the decision is yours of course. But, first they came for the Muslims, then the Mexicans ...

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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RuthW

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Gramps49, I don't think your age means you shouldn't protest. I don't know if being in your 60s will make you more safe or less safe if things go south at a Trump rally, but I object in general to the idea that older people shouldn't do the things they want to do simply because of their age or because they should somehow remain safe at all times. So if you want to protest, I hope you do.
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Martin60
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Do it for me Gramps49.

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Love wins

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Golden Key
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Gramps49--

Very much IMHO:

I protested for maybe 15 minutes, decades ago, in school. It was about an administrative problem. The principal's office made it known that they'd called the cops, and we had just a few minutes to get to class. Then the teachers were supposed to lock the classroom doors. I made it to class, just in time. That was my only in-person protest.

Over the years, I've heard a lot of news stories about protests. ISTM that, no matter how peaceful the protest is supposed to be and how carefully protesters and authorities have worked out agreements in advance, there's almost always someone (on either side) who loses it and does something stupid. Even a small sort of stupid. And there's a cascade of failure from there, and people get hurt, jailed, killed.

Plus there are self-proclaimed anarchists who set out to spoil the whole thing. (Watch out for anyone dressed all in black, and wearing a mask or other face covering.) I think they're cowards, ruining someone else's protest. (Unless, of course, they've actually been hired to disrupt...and how would we know?)

I have no interest in being caught in that, gassed, beaten, arrested, imprisoned. And I'm not convinced it really does any good. So I sign petitions, write letters, and donate.

You said you're a war protester, from way back, so you most probably know all this. For anyone who doesn't, look up the videos of the Occupy Oakland protest.

IMVVHO, Gramps49: If you're going to protest in person, do it wisely!. Think first. Count the cost, and be *very* clear-eyed about it. Remember that the Feds will be around: Secret Service, Homeland Security, probably the FBI. People are quick to mud-sling "Terrorism! Threat to national security!" around these days, and it's very hard to get free of that mud, if it hits you. And COINTELPRO is still around in spirit, if not in name.

I looked up a few resources, for you and anyone else thinking this through:

"Is it Okay to Kick People Out of Campaign Rallies? That Depends." (ACLU)

"Know Your Rights: What To Do If Your Rights Are Violated at a Demonstration or Protest." (ACLU) A little past 1/2 way down that page, you can download a PDF about protesters' rights.

And a search on "How to survive a protest" pulls up a lot of guides, including for riots.

IMHO, I think it would be great if you found a calm, legal, peaceful way to speak/show your truth. A sign, bumper-sticker, t-shirt, well-written letter to an editor or a site...maybe even just be very kind and calm to people around you, to balance the atmosphere and yourself.

Donald won't mind if you get into trouble, are injured, etc. It will just feed his narrative. Ditto for many of his supporters. And law enforcement officers--even the best--will probably be focused on security, their own safety, and containing problems.

Find a way to *wisely* express your truth. And stay safe!

{Here endeth the rather overwordy Epistle Unto The Protesters. [Biased] }

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Fantastic. A nonviolent guard to support Trump with a name based on Mussolini quote. This could be a spoof I suppose - there are only a few comments so hard to see how seriously it is being taken.

But is it a spoof? The problem with groups like this is that it's to tell. The slogan on the website says: "Better to be a lion for a day, than a lamb for eternity". I thought it was Blake, turns out it's a track from a young person's musical combo written by Zack de la Rocha. A human rights activist who supports the Zapatista movement provides a slogan for Donald Trump's pseudo militia? I almost hope it isn't a spoof.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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Doc Tor
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Bearing in mind that a non-zero number of times, Black bloc protesters have been infiltrated by police, who then use the anonymity as a basis for a false flag operation...

Protest. I've been on many marches, usually organised and stewarded by the local trades union congress. Add your number to those protesting - it's far from a young person's game, and the more old, regular folk (I now count as an old, regular person) are there, the more representative the crowd becomes. Take a banner. Make it witty. Talk to the press. Talk to your fellow marchers. Talk to the stewards and the cops. Make a day of it!

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Forward the New Republic

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Bibaculus
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According to the Lion Guard website (which is just a wordpress site), they are 'the voluntary eyes and ears of Make America Great Again on Social Media.' And it also states that'one suggestion is creating a paramilitary organization to patrol future Trump rallies and stop any violence by the America-hating fiends. While not a bad idea, it calls on fellow Trump supporters to engage in the sort of brawling the mainstream media wants to use against the Trump campaign. It also seems redundant, Mr. Trump already had secret service protecting his life and well paid security protecting his events from gate crashers'.

So it sounds like their activities will be online (and anonymous, or cowardly, if you prefer) rather than turning up to bash people over the head.

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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
stop any violence by the America-hating fiends.

Top of the list being Trump and his supporters!

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
The slogan on the website says: "Better to be a lion for a day, than a lamb for eternity". I thought it was Blake, turns out it's a track from a young person's musical combo written by Zack de la Rocha.

I think he was in fact quoting Mussolini in that track.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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quetzalcoatl
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Gramps49 - good for you. It does get harder with advancing years. The last march I went on was against the Iraq war in 2003, but that was a million people walking through London, unopposed.

I'm not so sure about going to a rally, with plenty of opposition, and fists flying.

You can probably find a reasonably safe place to stand, can't you?

Go for it.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Gramps49
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Uniform suggestions made by the Lion's Guard group include the red cap with the words "Make American Great Again." Trump's campaign cap. You have one, you're in.

Trump is now warning if he does not get the nomination, "There will be riots in the streets."

Will I go to a protest again? Probably. At a recent NC rally a group of clergy protesters actually kept the tension down. They would get between hot heads on both sides and would sing hymns. Press did not cover this for obvious reasons. The clergy were definitely anti trump but they chose non violence as their approach.

Will have to wait to see what develops.

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
Zack de la Rocha.

I think he was in fact quoting Mussolini in that track.
You're probably right - and I now know it was the EP title and not a track. I fear I'm too old to be able to follow the words of the songs (I did try). But my impression is that de la Rocha is of the libertarian left rather than right. I don't see Donald Trump seeing eye to eye with a Zapatista supporter who very publicly criticises both the USA and Mexico for human rights abuses.

Originally I assumed a 'Lion Guard' might be a blond hairnet for an unmanageable toupee .....

Gramps49: Zapata (unless it was Mussolini) said "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees" - but with a rather different nuance to the second part than you might take. Good Luck though, whatever you decide.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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Boogie

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Do they do online petitions in the US?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Golden Key
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Yes, re petitions. Try The Petition Site. Also Credo Action.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
At a recent NC rally a group of clergy protesters actually kept the tension down. They would get between hot heads on both sides and would sing hymns. Press did not cover this for obvious reasons. The clergy were definitely anti trump but they chose non violence as their approach.

Bravo! That's the way to protest.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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rolyn
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Demonstrating how you feel is important . People who demonstrate often have a feeling deep in the belly so if that feeling is there then yes, boots on the ground and placards skywards.
If it turns violent I think you might be playing into this geezer's hands.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Over the years, I've heard a lot of news stories about protests. ISTM that, no matter how peaceful the protest is supposed to be and how carefully protesters and authorities have worked out agreements in advance, there's almost always someone (on either side) who loses it and does something stupid. Even a small sort of stupid. And there's a cascade of failure from there, and people get hurt, jailed, killed.

In the news stories, sure. Because peaceful protests don't get a lot of news coverage. I've been to plenty of protests, and I've never seen any violence, never seen anyone do something stupid. (Well, nothing stupid of the inciting violence kind. I've seen plenty of questionable fashion choices, and the giant puppets at the anti-war protests in 2003 were pretty stupid.)

It looks like California's Republican primary is going to make a difference, so I'm planning to re-register as a Republican and vote for Kasich if he's still standing on June 7. Campaigning here is mostly done in the media, but Gramps49 has got me thinking about whether or not I'd go to a Trump rally to protest. Honestly, it's not the potential for violence so much as the likelihood that I'd have to drive into LA that gives me pause.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Gramps49: At a recent NC rally a group of clergy protesters actually kept the tension down. They would get between hot heads on both sides and would sing hymns. Press did not cover this for obvious reasons. The clergy were definitely anti trump but they chose non violence as their approach.
Out of curiosity, were they wearing clerical collars?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Because peaceful protests don't get a lot of news coverage.

Which is a perverse incentive if ever one was seen. And also feeds the imaginations of those that would like to hijack an event to indulge themselves.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Gramps49
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Yes, the clergy were wearing collars. There were also lay Christians in the group.
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sabine
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I can't answer for you, but I would protest (I'm in my 60s). One of my close friends has been to jail for justice several times, and she is close to 80.

Follow your heart.

sabine

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sabine
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Waging Nonviolence has an interesting POV

sabine

[ 18. March 2016, 17:09: Message edited by: sabine ]

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Gramps49
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Video of the clergy protest outside of the Donald Trump rally in North Carolina.
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Dave W.
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That was covered in the news, you know. The first hit I get for "NC trump rally hymns" is an article in the Charlotte Observer:
quote:
Outside the rally, protesters sang about peace and love. Among them were church groups, Bernie Sanders supporters and people carrying messages with Bible verses.

"I’m here to support my people and to say I’m here to stay," said Josefina Cazares, 23. "No matter what, he can’t deport 11 million people."

Tim Taylor, a Lutheran pastor from Raleigh, said "we’re called to care for one another, to love one another and to find ways not to divide one another. There are enough things that divide us, we don’t need to think up more."

Trump’s supporters answered the protesters’ hymns with "Build that wall!"


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Golden Key
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...whereupon the protesters should've responded by singing "Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, and the walls came tumblin' down".
[Cool] [Snigger]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged


 
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