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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Transfiguration
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
For those following the Lectionary Calender, next Sunday is Transfiguration Sunday.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:2-9&version=NIV
There is so much to unpack in this Gospel lesson, it is hard to begin.
I guess the question I have is what part of the story is most important to you? Why?
For me the most important part is that Jesus and the three disciples came down from the mountain. Of course, this meant the eventual crucifixion of Jesus, but he did come down the mountain.
When Peter asks Jesus if it would be okay to build three booths for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus I wounder if Jesus saw this as yet another temptation--oh it would have been so easy just to stay on that mountain.
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
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Posted
I have to admit I've always had difficulty understanding the Transfiguration, and what the point of it was supposed to be.
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Books and things.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I regard the Transfiguration as very exciting, but have long been puzzled why it appears in the readings now as well as on the 6th August which is the Transfiguration. Does anyone know?
The disciples, obviously, normally saw Jesus with his human nature visible. Briefly on the mountain, three of the disciples saw Jesus in his divine nature. They also saw him endorsed by Moses and Elijah, the Law and the Prophets.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Posted
It's one of the ways in which Christ manifested his glory, which is pretty much the theme of the Epiphany season. For Lutherans, as that season draws to its close, the final Sunday is Transfiguration, although I understand a lot of other folks do it in August.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Interesting lectionary divergence. For us, next Sunday is just the next Sunday in OT. The gospel happens to conclude Mark 1, but that's just because we're reading Mark's account of Jesus' earthly ministry in order. And Epiphany isn't a season, but one of the five solemnities that make up the Christmas season. Is this "Transfiguration Sunday" always the third Sunday of February, or always the Sunday before Ash Wednesday, or something else I can't think of?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
The last Sunday before Ash Wednesday. The RCL calls it "Last Epiphany" (so it could be the 6th, 7th or 8th depending on date of Easter) and the Transfiguration story from Matthew, Mark or Luke are used in years A, B, and C, respectively. Interestingly the same passage is also the Gospel indicated for Lent 2 in each of the years, although an alternate passage is also indicated. It seems strange to me that the same passage would be read just a few weeks apart!
In the Episcopal lectionary, the Luke account of the Transfiguration is used in all 3 years, but (I'm not sure how many Episcopal parishes are still using that as opposed to the RCL. I guess that would be an Eccles question.)
I had once heard the Transfiguration story described as "a misplaced story of a post-Easter appearance," although I'm skeptical about that.
[ 09. February 2015, 20:19: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I guess that would be an Eccles question.)
...
I'll try and avoid being too ecclesiantical here, but I've a longstanding interest in lectionaries as a form of exegesis. The way scripture is chopped up, paired up, re-sequenced and re-narrativized is a form of interpretation that fascinates me.
I can see a fittingness to reading the Transfiguration before Lent: regrounding ourselves in Christ's glory and splendor before we trudge with him through the humiliation he endured for our sake. The Roman lectionary takes up this impulse in having the Transfiguration read on Lent 2, as preparation for the more Passion focused latter part of Lent. Really, this is taking up a structuring impulse that's already there in the synoptics.
I have to say I agree that it does seem a little odd to have it post as a pre-Lent reading and as Lenten pre-Passion reading. I wonder where the RCL got the idea from?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
I can see a fittingness to reading the Transfiguration before Lent: regrounding ourselves in Christ's glory and splendor before we trudge with him through the humiliation he endured for our sake.
In a sense, this for me is "the point" of the Transfiguration story...but allow me a digression to get to that point.
Jesus' first "public" miracle at the wedding at Cana has always struck me as odd. Imagine you are Jesus. For your first miracle what would you do? Cure a leper? Restore sight to the blind? Make the mute speak? Raise the dead? But what does Jesus do?
He makes sure that a party can go on a little longer.
Really?? And what was the point of that? It isn't very splashy as a way to show the power of God. It doesn't seem to serve any deep religious purpose ("Because you believe in me...have some wine!"). But what we are told is that, even then, he had disciples with him. And the miracle at Cana was done for their benefit. Unlike the host of the party, who apparently had no idea anything was going on, the disciples were present for the miracle.
So I figure the purpose of the Cana miracle was to show to the disciples, just starting off with this man Jesus, that he wasn't just an ordinary rabbi. He was something different.
Now we move forward to the Transfiguration. They are about to head to Jerusalem and, frankly, what happens to Jesus there is enough to shake one's faith that he is anything special. He is whipped, and he seems powerless to stop it. He is sentenced to die and mocked, and no miracle happens to prevent it. He carries his cross and stumbles along the way. He is nailed to the cross and dies. Just like any ordinary human. That is more than enough to make even the most fervent believer doubt.
So, prior to undergoing all of this, Jesus stops with a select important few of his followers and gives them something to hold on to...the Transfiguration. This is the Messiah. This is The One. No matter what happens in Jerusalem, they always have this knowledge. They saw and heard it themselves. The suffering and death on the cross will still happen, but the Transfiguration lets them know that it is happening because Jesus is letting it happen.
This doesn't mean that they really understood, at the time, what he was doing, but the Transfiguration served to bolster their faith during the trial that was to come. So, too, it is altogether fitting for it to be read as we head into Lent.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
"As they were coming down from the mountain,, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead" Mark 9
This is why the reading comes near the beginning of Lent, as a sort of preview of the Pascal mystery.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
"As they were coming down from the mountain,, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead" Mark 9
This is why the reading comes near the beginning of Lent, as a sort of preview of the Pascal mystery.
I think that you're right. The Transfiguration is one of the key moments - from here everything seems to point towards Holy Week.
Back to the question of understanding the Transfiguration, I have long shared the puzzlement of Trudy Scrumptious. I don't find it an easy incident to preach on. I offer one thought. What if it wasn't Jesus who changed, but the disciples? Is this more a story of how their understanding and perception was changed?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That God tells us that Jesus is his beloved son - and by implication, all of us
Eastern Orthodox Churches say that the Transfiguration points to the restoration of the divine image in humanity.
But, of course, according to the synoptic gospels, God had already said this when Jesus was baptised by John.
I also think it is interesting that John's Gospel doesn't have this incident. Is this because the WHOLE of that Gospel is an affirmation of the Transfiguration?
I think it is also worth bearing in mind 2 Peter 1:16-18, which is a clear reference to this story. What significance you give to it will depend upon your views on the authorship and dating of 2 Peter. But at the very least, it indicates how the early church understood the message of the story: "eyewitnesses of his majesty."
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
First--I did not realize that in this one instance there can be so much variance in the lectionary. I would say this could be a topic for the Ecclesiasantics board.
I agree that the perceptions of the disciples changed at least for the moment, but it did not take very long before they could not see beyond their noses, eventually hiding in backrooms for fear.
I find it interesting Mark says Peter blurts out about building the booths because he did not know what to say because they were so afraid. In the previous story, when Jesus announces he is about to be crucified and then rebukes Peter, calling him the devil, but here Mark and the other synoptics are willing to give Peter a pass. Peter keeps messing things up, why give him a pass here?
Just as an aside about the wedding at Cana--yes John claims this was Jesus' first miracle (more of a sign), it does not continue an old, tired party in my mind, it changes the party, making it anew. (Let's drink some wine!--oops slipping into Godspell here)
[ 11. February 2015, 02:43: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That God tells us that Jesus is his beloved son - and by implication, all of us
Eastern Orthodox Churches say that the Transfiguration points to the restoration of the divine image in humanity.
Leo that's really good. There's one thing, though, that you say that I'm going to disagree with you about.
quote:
"On the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus was bathed in light."
I think that rather than being bathed in light, the light came from inside him. I think he let the disciples see the divine light that was always there, but which normally was veiled in flesh.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I find it interesting Mark says Peter blurts out about building the booths because he did not know what to say because they were so afraid. In the previous story, when Jesus announces he is about to be crucified and then rebukes Peter, calling him the devil, but here Mark and the other synoptics are willing to give Peter a pass. Peter keeps messing things up, why give him a pass here?
What Peter had to say about building booths was merely silly. When Jesus says that he will be put to death, what Peter had to say was a rejection of very important information that the disciples needed to hear.
I think it was entirely appropriate for Jesus to ignore the silliness and insist that the serious matter not be denied.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
What Peter had to say about building booths was merely silly.
Possibly it was silly; he was scared witless and babbling. There are more sympathetic ways of viewing Peter's proposal. One concerns the natural human reaction to an amazing moment: the desire to 'pin it down' and make it last just a little while longer. Another is the recognition that, while building booths may have not been quite the right thing, Peter was offering to serve Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Offers of service and generosity to Jesus are worth something, IMO, even if the content needs to be redirected.
quote:
When Jesus says that he will be put to death, what Peter had to say was a rejection of very important information that the disciples needed to hear.
It was also a rejection of something horrifying and incomprehensible. None of the disciples had heard of or seen resurrection before. Peter showed that he grasped very well the first half of what Jesus was saying; after "death" panic and rejection would be pretty understandable reactions.
Following Western tradition, I see the Transfiguration as prefiguring the Resurrection. It was a demo, if you like - Jesus drawing a picture for the disciples of what resurrection would be like, because words were failing to convey the content.
I also found some richness in Orthodox iconography about the Transfiguration. It's usually depicted as happening in a
mandorla, that pointy-ended oval shape. This indicates a mystical occurrence. This is also called a vesica piscis and represents the overlap of two circles in a Venn diagram. One way of thinking about the Transfiguration, then, is as the mystical overlap of heaven and earth, with Jesus in the middle of it. This blog post on Transfiguration and iconography was interesting.
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I was at Taizé last year for the feast of the Transfiguration. The brother doing the Bible introduction for Old People™ (means over 30 ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) explained to us that this feast is a very big deal in the Eastern churches and therefore they always celebrate it.
Anyway, onto the text… the main reflection of the day was that what is transfigured is Jesus’ humanity – his face and his clothes. Apparently Brother Roger was fond of saying that what God wants to transfigure is our frailty and vulnerability. Most of us try to hide and cover our weaknesses and vulnerabilities but actually if we’re prepared to be up front about them, God can transfigure that vulnerability and make something very beautiful out of it. We are very close to God (and also useful to other people) if we will expose our frail, soft side instead of pretending to be stronger and more in control than we really are.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think that rather than being bathed in light, the light came from inside him. I think he let the disciples see the divine light that was always there, but which normally was veiled in flesh.
That's interesting - I didn't think much about the 'bathed' bit.
I thought some more about this - even wondered if I am heretical in thinking that the glory was derivative.
Then I thought of John;'s gospel where Jeesus talks of the glory thou has given me.'
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
I think the most important part of the story is the actual experience of the disciples - which for each one was probably unique. The theological interpretations - then and now - are for the theologians.
What many Christians will relate to is the numinous feeling of being in the presence of someone who was more than a man. A feeling which many ordinary Christians may well have shared - and which many learned theologians may not have.
I had one such experience myself. It brought tears to my eyes.
I heard a vicar preaching on this (the biblical event, not my own vision), and his sermon provoked tears of a different kind. It was patently obvious that he had not had a similar blessing, and his dog-in-a-manger attitude to those who had was to belittle it, and urge them to come down off the mountain and live in the same sordid world that he was stuck in.
Had I lived a few centuries ago, I would probably have witnessed to having stood in the presence of Christ - a similar reaction to that of Peter and his booths.
All I can say with hindsight is that it was real, it was authentic, and I still feel enormously privileged and thankful for the gift. And nothing will ever make me talk it down.
A fellow non-theist might say "But weren't you mistaken?" And I would say "No. I was a Christian then. These things happen to Christians sometimes, and the best response is not, I think, to shout about it. Jesus, after all, would have told me to go home and not say a word.
[ 14. February 2015, 20:12: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
I think the most important part of the story is the actual experience of the disciples - which for each one was probably unique. The theological interpretations - then and now - are for the theologians.
This is probably a large tangent, but...
I'm not sure I can accept the distinction between the disciples and theologians. Everyone interprets their experiences. And if one does so in the framework of working out where God fits in, then it is a theological interpretation.
In this passage, Peter's confused remarks about tents are theological interpretation. Perhaps (and I speculate entirely here) as a good Jew, he recognised the cloud, the light as the presence of God. And thus, the mind would go to a tent - the tent of meeting from the Exodus. Though he is clearly confused in needing three, but, nonetheless there is some theological interpretation going on.
Likewise, (picking at random, partly because Denys Turner's biography of him is to hand) Thomas Aquinas, Summa is a reaction to his experience of the divine - a working through of what he had experienced of God. Theology is not divorced from 'mysticism'. Mother Julian of Norwich is just as much a theologian as Thomas!
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
All points taken. In Peter's case I guess it was very much due to the inherent, ingrained theology that led to his enthusiastic outburst. But I think the outburst was spontaneous, as it is likely to be with any vision (inwards or outwards). And there are (at least) two levels of theology at work once the event(s) are shared with others. The hearers/readers may want to add their own five eggs to the original visionary, which is probably why Jesus so often told the recipients of his blessing to keep shtum! I read of an excellent local drama on Lazarus (which, sadly, I wasn't able to attend) in which poor Lazarus himself was sent crazy by the conflicting demands of the onlookers and the ensuing "media circus, first-century-style!
[ 16. February 2015, 18:42: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
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Posted
It's true that, in the Est, the Transfiguration is a Very Big Deal. One of the Twelve Great Feasts. And it's in August. I couldn't figure out why it was up for discussion now!
In the Orthodox Church, we understand that the Light of the Transfiguration is the divine, uncreated Light of God's energies. And, as others have suggested here, the source of that Light is the Word Himself.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
It's true that, in the Est, the Transfiguration is a Very Big Deal. One of the Twelve Great Feasts. And it's in August. I couldn't figure out why it was up for discussion now!
Because it was the gospel reading for last Sunday for those who follow the Revised Common lectionary (excepting RCs who read it on Lent 2)
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
I think the most important part of the story is the actual experience of the disciples - which for each one was probably unique. The theological interpretations - then and now - are for the theologians.
This is probably a large tangent, but...
I'm not sure I can accept the distinction between the disciples and theologians. Everyone interprets their experiences. And if one does so in the framework of working out where God fits in, then it is a theological interpretation.
Absolutely.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
All points taken. In Peter's case I guess it was very much due to the inherent, ingrained theology that led to his enthusiastic outburst. But I think the outburst was spontaneous, as it is likely to be with any vision (inwards or outwards). And there are (at least) two levels of theology at work once the event(s) are shared with others. The hearers/readers may want to add their own five eggs to the original visionary, which is probably why Jesus so often told the recipients of his blessing to keep shtum! I read of an excellent local drama on Lazarus (which, sadly, I wasn't able to attend) in which poor Lazarus himself was sent crazy by the conflicting demands of the onlookers and the ensuing "media circus, first-century-style!
Absolutely
not , venbede? Just askin'.
[ 20. February 2015, 18:43: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The changing of water into wine is the first miracle according to John.
However, the first miracle according Mark is when he confronted a demon possessed man in a synagogue.
None of the Synoptic Gospels record the changing the water into wine. This is a unique Johanine story. I would not try to harmonize John's gospel with the other Gospels. It is a stand alone gospel.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
It's true that, in the Est, the Transfiguration is a Very Big Deal. One of the Twelve Great Feasts. And it's in August. I couldn't figure out why it was up for discussion now!
In the Orthodox Church, we understand that the Light of the Transfiguration is the divine, uncreated Light of God's energies. And, as others have suggested here, the source of that Light is the Word Himself.
No disagreement from us about that understanding. In our calendar, the Feast can be observed at the last Sunday before Lent, or with you in August. Most churches here that follow a calendar would opt for the pre-Lenten observance. It seems to be a better fit there, a good prelude to the solemnity of Lent.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
Picking up on the Transfiguration/Passion connection:
'The Three' (Peter, James & John) are with Jesus on the mountain -- presumably all shared the experience/vision/teaching, etc.
Peter and John have huge roles on the Passion narratives, but WHAT HAPPENS TO JAMES? -- he seems to simply disappear. No commentary I have read (which is by no means all of them) deal with this.
Ideas on this? Leads to follow up?
(Or am I simply exposing my ignorance!)
(Deleted duplicate post. Mamacita, Host)
[ 07. May 2015, 02:28: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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You can't retire from a calling.
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
A couple of points: Jesus had six days before the Transfiguration asked, "Who do people say that I am?" and then "Who do you say that I am?", leading to Peter's confession that "You are the Christ." In a sermon I heard a couple of years back, the homilist brought in references to Moses and Elijah, noting that they were not thought of as dead in Jesus' time, but that they were expected to play a major role in the Messiah's reign. When the voice from the cloud says, "This is my Son in whom I am well-pleased; listen to him," it confirms both Peter's confirmation, and the confirmation that Moses', and Elijah's presence brings to the event: that Jesus will usher in the Kingdom of God.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Regarding James. He and his brother were called Sons of Thunder by Jesus probably because they were all sound and fury. In Mark 10:35 ff. James and John wanted Jesus to rain brimstone on a Samaritan town because they had rejected Jesus.
In Acts 12:2 we hear that James was executed by Herod. One of the few deaths recorded in the Books of Acts, btw.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
What Peter had to say about building booths was merely silly.
I think it is neither silly, nor unimportant. To start with the latter: if it were not for this comment by St Peter, we could assume that the mentioning of Elijah and Moses was purely figuratively. That is to say, these names formally represent the Prophets and the Law here, respectively, but were not "really there". Of course, these two figures do represent the Jewish religious tradition to the disciples. But by St Peter's reaction we know that in their vision they were really present as embodied persons, Jesus really was chatting with two human beings known as Elijah and Moses, respectively, during their time on earth. So unless we want to accuse God of trickery and lies, God here showed the disciples an instance of the bodily resurrection in the afterlife. God shows Himself as God of the living, concretely through these two human persons. And furthermore, God de facto endorses here a personal rather than abstract view of salvation history. We witness an actual "physical" meeting of the old and new faith, represented by embodied persons. The disciples do not see for example some core doctrines illustrated by some abstract light play, they see three people chatting to each other, person to person.
Now, given this St Peter's reaction - while certainly confused by fear, as the gospel says - does make a certain practical sense. St Peter wishes to accommodate the people, the masters of his faith, who are really standing there right before him. It's a bit like being a Communist, and one evening coming home from work finding Marx, Engels and Trotsky chatting with each other on your backyard lawn. It is hardly amazing if your responded with a "Dear Comrades, fantastic to have you here, shall I prepare three beds for your stay?" That does not mean that you are desperately holding on to the moment, or whatever, that simply means that the only other thing that is coming to your mind other than "Holy shitballs, WTF is going on here?!" is to run some basic hospitality for your glorious leaders.
I would add that this also means that the transfiguration cannot have been so mind-blowing as to blast the disciples into catatonic silence. OK, perhaps St Peter was particularly resistant to shock, but still... This says to me that we shouldn't think of a rock concert like light show with magnified figures on gigantic screens speaking with the power of a thousand loudspeakers. I think it is just as described, Jesus turned dazzling white and two people (whom the disciples somehow recognised as Elijah and Moses) appeared next to him and began talking to him. If there was anything like a "tear in spacetime" moment, then it was rather when they were engulfed by the Divine cloud. But the transfiguration itself in fact seems relatively "ordinary", still quite "human" to me. At least ordinary and human enough for St Peter to think about providing accommodation...
Note also that the Divinity of Christ is affirmed by the Divine cloud, not (just) by the transfiguration. Indeed, all this of course parallels Christ's baptism (Mk 1:9-11). And if we take this parallel seriously, then the transfiguration shows a Divine aspect of a human activity, which is then explicitly confirmed by God's words from the cloud. In baptism the Holy Spirit (as dove) appears and comes down on the baptised. In the transfiguration, the representatives of the faith come and chat to the transfigured. So I think we see here a Divine endorsement of the passing on of the faith, both in the sense of "from person to person", and in the sense of "from Jews to Christians". Note also that God's reaction is subtly different: Mark has God being pleased with Christ's baptism, but after Jesus chats to Elijah and Moses, God tells the disciples to listen to him. Jesus will transmit the Prophets and Law to them, personally. It is the process of passing on the faith to another, and from Jews to Christians, that gets endorsed here. (As soon as God says that the disciples should listen to Christ, Elijah and Moses disappear - their Jewish faith will come to the disciples through Christ, not from Elijah and Moses themselves.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Happy Epiphany! Bumping this thread because Epiphany is as short as it gets this year, and The Transfiguration will be coming up in the lectionary in just a month's time.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
I have often wondered whether the response of Jesus to Peter's outburst might not have been to pre-empt any fear on Peter's part that he might have just given vent to an unforgiveable blasphemy. I can imagine the startled looks of his companions.
And Peter did tend to go off at half-cock, didn't he. Jesus nick-named him "Rock" not because he was the steady type, IMO, but to steady him, and boost his obviously fragile self-esteem.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Just compulsive, I think, without malicious intent. I read Peter's exclamation as something like, "This is so cool - let's stay here forever!"
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Many commentaries and study guides I have read tie Peter's suggestion to Sukkot , the Feast of Booths, which had strong Messianic overtones. Some sources seem to assume that the Transfiguration occurred during Sukkot. As I understand it, the Orthodox churches consider the Feast of the Transfiguration to correspond with Sukkot, and celebrate it as a feast of first fruits.
If this is the case, Peter is saying "Wow! The prophecied time of the Messiah, when God will dwell ("tabernacle") with humans, has arrived! Shall we build the tabernacles/booths/sukkot?"
The implicit (pre-crucifixion and resurrection) answer, of course, is "not yet."
[ 09. January 2016, 12:50: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Well it did come straight after Peter had declared Jesus to be Messiah, So Sukkot or not, Messianic ideas would have been in Peter's mind.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Fruits are certainly blessed on the feast of the Transfiguration and I've been present when it happens. But I would have thought that is because 6 August is a date when fruits would begin to become available in Constantinople.
I don't know the exact reason why the Byzantine church chose 6 August, but the typical reason for choosing the dates of Biblical saints or events would be the anniversary of the dedication of a church.
But it's a nice coincidence with the first fruits and booths.
[ 10. January 2016, 20:28: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
FWiW, I found this at the OrthodoxWiki page on the Transiguration
quote:
It is believed that Christ's transfiguration took place at the time of the Jewish Festival of Booths, and that the celebration of the event in the Christian Church became the New Testament fulfillment of the Old Testament feast. Presently it is celebrated on the sixth of August, forty days before the feast, Elevation of the Holy Cross. Just as Peter, James, and John saw the transfiguration before the crucifixion so that they might know who it is who will suffered for them, the Church connects these two feasts to help the faithful understand the mission of Christ and that his suffering was voluntary.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't know the exact reason why the Byzantine church chose 6 August, but the typical reason for choosing the dates of Biblical saints or events would be the anniversary of the dedication of a church.
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia the Transfiguration was celebrated on different dates in different corners of Christendom, but in 1456 Pope Callixtus III had it transferred to August 6 in thanksgiving for the defeat of the Ottoman Empire at Belgrade. The sources I've looked at don't explain the Pope's theological reasoning for it, but there you are.
I think it's a stretch to try to draw a direct line between the actual timing of the Transfiguration and Sukkot (based on the Jewish calendars I checked, it seems to fall somewhere in late September to mid-October). But it does make sense to me that Peter, having had the lifelong experience of celebrating Sukkot, could have thought immediately of booths as a familiar and religiously observant way of building a temporary shelter.
[ 11. January 2016, 00:08: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
All that said, the Transfiguration appears in the Revised Common Lectionary at the end of Epiphany, which this year is Feb. 7. And it also appears as at least an optional reading during one of the Sundays of Lent, depending on whether you are Episcopalian, RC, or various Protestant traditions. Being a cradle Episcopalian, I associate it with the run up to Lent and the placement of it within the sequence of the events of Jesus' life. But maybe that's just me!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia the Transfiguration was celebrated on different dates in different corners of Christendom, but in 1456 Pope Callixtus III had it transferred to August 6 in thanksgiving for the defeat of the Ottoman Empire at Belgrade.
That's why the Pope chose that date. He was adopting a major feast of the Byzantine church. My question was why the Byzantine church chose that date in the first place.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia the Transfiguration was celebrated on different dates in different corners of Christendom, but in 1456 Pope Callixtus III had it transferred to August 6 in thanksgiving for the defeat of the Ottoman Empire at Belgrade.
That's why the Pope chose that date. He was adopting a major feast of the Byzantine church. My question was why the Byzantine church chose that date in the first place.
To be 40 days before Holy Cross.
(And to the following question, the date for Holy Cross is based on the invention of the relics of the True Cross by St. Helena, mother of Constantine).
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The date of Holy Cross Day, 14 September, is based not only on the finding of the cross, but the dedication of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.
I didn't know it was associated with the feast of the Transfiguration. What's the authority for that fact? I’m not doubting you. I’d just like to know.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
All that said, the Transfiguration appears in the Revised Common Lectionary at the end of Epiphany, which this year is Feb. 7. And it also appears as at least an optional reading during one of the Sundays of Lent, depending on whether you are Episcopalian, RC, or various Protestant traditions. Being a cradle Episcopalian, I associate it with the run up to Lent and the placement of it within the sequence of the events of Jesus' life. But maybe that's just me!
This association is relatively recent - before the year 2000, it was the gospel for Lent 4 but tended to get squeezed out by Mothering Sunday.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That's why the Pope chose that date. He was adopting a major feast of the Byzantine church. My question was why the Byzantine church chose that date in the first place.
Here is a Byzantine Church source that gives this explanation:
quote:
Christian tradition since the fourth century has placed the site of the Transfiguration as the top of Mount Tabor, near Nazareth. There, St. Helen (approx. 250-330 AD) built the church of the Holy Transfiguration, solemnly dedicated on August 6.
In the Byzantine Rite the feast of the Holy Transfiguration has been traditionally celebrated on August 6 since at least the 8th century. In 1457 Pope Callistus III extended celebration of the feast to the entire Latin Rite Church. Thus the feast became a universal holy day, celebrated by both Eastern and Western churches on August 6.
So that ties it to the dedication of a church, as you had earlier suggested.
The same source gives this explanation of the custom of blessing fruits (italics mine): quote:
In 680-681 the sixth Ecumenical Council in Constantinople prescribed that the "wheat and grapes" were to be blessed in church on the feast of the Holy Transfiguration. In accordance with Byzantine tradition, on this date fruits are blessed, originally apples, plums, and pears, but now especially grapes, because they are symbolic of the perpetually new transfiguration of our Lord in the Holy Eucharist and they act as a reminder of the transfiguration we must daily undergo as committed, baptized followers of Christ.
Which, personally, I find a more satisfying explanation than trying to link the date to Sukkot based on Peter's exclamation about booths (which, as I said above, seems tenuous at best).
[ 11. January 2016, 15:31: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thanks, Mamacita. That's nice to have my speculations confirmed.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thinking I should contribute something to this thread about the text rather than the liturgical context, I’ve been looking up Evans’ commentary on St Luke.
The reference to tents/tabernacles taken in conjunction with the cloud all suggest the Israelites travelling through the desert with God’s presence in a tent covered by a cloud.
That sounds more likely than the tents at Sukkot which recall the domestic tents of the Israelites.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Thanks, Mamacita. That's nice to have my speculations confirmed.
Seconded. I knew I knew, but I wasn't going to be doing well to corroborate!
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