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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Transfiguration
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This association is relatively recent - before the year 2000, it was the gospel for Lent 4 but tended to get squeezed out by Mothering Sunday.
Perhaps in England. I imagine few people in the States have a clue what Mothering Sunday is. We're used to Mother's Day in May.
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That sounds more likely than the tents at Sukkot which recall the domestic tents of the Israelites.
Well FWIW, I have read Jewish sources that relate the sukkot to both the domestic tents and to the Sheknah as seen in the cloud.
I have also seen a few sources—all Messianic, I think—that relate the Transfiguration to the lighting of the four seventy-five foot candelabra in front of the Temple. I have no clue whether anyone outside Messianic groups draws this connection.
Personally, I think there isn't much more than speculation that links the timing of the Transfiguration to Sukkot. But I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that Peter's comment about building booths was, in his mind, related to Sukkot. It wouldn't be the only example in the gospels. The crowd's reaction in the Palm Sunday narrative, and the significance given it by the four evangelists, has some fairly strong undertones of Sukkot, even though it happened in Spring rather than Autumn.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I have also seen a few sources—all Messianic, I think—that relate the Transfiguration to the lighting of the four seventy-five foot candelabra in front of the Temple. I have no clue whether anyone outside Messianic groups draws this connection.
Sorry. I neglected to specifically say that these candelabra were lit during Sukkot.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
OK, one last liturgical comment.
Leo refers to the wretched C of E 1980 – 2000 lectionary now, DG, confined to the dustbin of liturgical history.
The innovation was this:
Up to Rome’s revisions in the 1960s, there were three Sundays of preparation for Lent, Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quniqugesima. They were duly in the C of E 1662 BCP. There is a comparable period of preparation in the Orthodox calendar.
In the Tridentine missal, with earlier precedent, the gospel for Lent 2 was the Transfiguration, as it looked forward to the passion.
The medieval Sarum missal, from which the BCP readings were derived, did not have that reading. As a result it did not appear in the BCP or its derivatives.
I have a bound copy of the RCL complete but with the C of E options indicated. The Transfiguration is an option for Lent 2 and also for the Sunday before Lent. If it is not used on the Sunday before Lent, the ordinary readings can be read in course.
Obviously the Transfiguration is an epiphany, even to the extent of having a comparable heavenly message as at the Baptism. If you want to keep it as a feast, OK, but that is not why the gospel reading comes at that point of the year in the RCL. And IMHO an Epiphany season stretching from Epiphany to Lent is far too prolonged and artificial.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
And IMHO an Epiphany season stretching from Epiphany to Lent is far too prolonged and artificial.
Well, fwiw, in the Presbyterian calendar (at least as expressed in the liturgical books of the PC(USA)), the last Sunday before Lent (and not August 6) is indeed observed as the the Transfiguration, with an emphasis on turning toward Lent and the passion. But Epiphany is not considered a season for us; it is a single day.
And yes, I realize I just cited Presbyterian liturgical practices. I'm sure some turning in graves could be heard.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
(I’d got the impression that Transfiguration Sunday was being kept as a climax to an Epiphany season. Hence my concern. Good on liturgical Presbyterians.)
Back to exegesis.
It is only in Luke we have the passage “They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem” which specifically identifies the Transfiguration with the passion. But I heard a sermon on the Sunday before Lent a couple of years ago which made the point that presence of Peter, James and John link the passage with the garden of Gethesemane, a different sort of revelation of God’s glory.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(I’d got the impression that Transfiguration Sunday was being kept as a climax to an Epiphany season. Hence my concern. Good on liturgical Presbyterians.)
I think it is in some calendars. (Lutherans and Methodists, perhaps?)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Here are links to the Transfiguration story in the Synoptics, if you'd like to compare/contrast:
Mark 9:2-9
Matthew 17:1-9
Luke 9:28-36
[ 12. January 2016, 16:49: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It is only in Luke we have the passage “They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem” which specifically identifies the Transfiguration with the passion.
I really like Luke's version because he tells us what Jesus, Moses, and Elijah were talking about (or at least how he imagines it). After this, we see Jesus talking more with his disciples about how he is going to suffer and die. Perhaps Moses and Elijah were giving him strength to get through this next part.
Also, all three evangelists position this event as taking place about a week after Peter's confession that Jesus is the Messiah, that pivotal moment in the disciples' journey. Perhaps God figured, "OK, now they are ready to see what that really means."
quote:
But I heard a sermon on the Sunday before Lent a couple of years ago which made the point that presence of Peter, James and John link the passage with the garden of Gethesemane, a different sort of revelation of God’s glory.
That is interesting. So many parallels and yet the contrast of light and dark, the pristine setting up in the clouds versus the sweat, tears and blood in Gethsemene. (Also, I just noticed that Luke throws in this little detail about the disciples being sleepy at the Transfiguration. It's probably too much of a stretch to think that the lack of sleep is an intentional parallel, but it's kind of interesting.)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I don't think that's too much of a stretch at all.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
All three accounts mention the garments being very white. For Matthew they are white as the light. (For Luke they are just dazzling. For Mark they are whiter than they could be from human washing.) These must be references to the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 with clothing white as snow (except Christ’s garments are even whiter. Matthew’s garments are the whitest.)
But only Matthew says “his face shone as the sun. “ I can’t find any other references to faces shining like the sun. Is it a reference to Moses? Going up a high mountain (or for Luke just the mountain as though we all know which one he means) certainly suggest Moses.
The sermon I heard at Epiphany suggested that Matthew particularly wants to make the point that Christ is a new Moses, with Herod as Pharaoh slaughtering baby boys, five blocks of teaching and the teaching starting on a mountain.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I really like Luke's version because he tells us what Jesus, Moses, and Elijah were talking about (or at least how he imagines it).
Not so much "how he imagine it" as "how he is making a theological point through symbolism and narrative.
Surely Moses and Elijah are there to show Jesus fulfills both the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah).
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But only Matthew says “his face shone as the sun. “ I can’t find any other references to faces shining like the sun. Is it a reference to Moses? Going up a high mountain (or for Luke just the mountain as though we all know which one he means) certainly suggest Moses.
.. yes and whilst Moses had to go about unveiled, least the Israelites get struck down, whereas now the disciples are able to see the reflected glory unveiled.
Or alternatively, it's some kind of Ascension story that has been recast.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Compare Rev 1:16, and all the OT references to the light of God's face (e.g. "let the light of your face shine upon us, o God!")
Allusions are all very interesting, but I think the primary reason he wrote it was because that's what it looked like.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Why does Luke say "the mountain" as though it is obvious which one?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Precisely because it doesn't matter which one. It's "the mountain," the place of God's theophany.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Allusions are all very interesting, but I think the primary reason he wrote it was because that's what it looked like.
When different people describe the same incident, it is inevitable that they will emphasise different details according to their understanding.
The evangelists are not writing to provide the equivalent of the videotape of a Very Important Person. They are writing for Christian believers “that they might have faith” to demonstrate the nature of God as revealed in the life of Jesus. In other words, they are writing theologically.
They are also writing pre-protestant and pre-Enlightenment in which meaning is not only conveyed through verbal concepts but through imagery as well, or indeed primarily.
They are also writing, as they continually insist, that Christ fulfils the scriptures.
It is therefore perfectly appropriate to analyse the Biblical allusions, as was done by patristic writers as much as by post structuralist Biblical critics
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I am aware of all these things, thanks. But I do think it important to occasionally revisit the fact that a real occurrence underlies the text.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
At Candlemas I heard the reading from Malachi 3 "For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the descendants of Levi".
The only other reference to a fuller I could remember was Mark 9, although I notice the NRSV doesn't mention a fuller.
This would make sense that Jesus if purifying the priestly tradition.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
This is a long shot, but it is possible that supported by Moses representing the Torah and Elijah representing the prophets, Jesus with his purified robes represents the priesthood.
Or rather the Jewish concept of priesthood illuminates the gospel writer's understanding of Jesus.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
The Transfiguration is coming up this Sunday ... anybody here preaching?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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