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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Forgiveness - what does Jesus want us to do?
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
We've had a thread on this in Purg. There was some discussion on an exegetical issue which I'd like to explore a bit further.
The question is how we reconcile places where Jesus, on the one hand seems to require us to forgive unconditionally, and others where conditions seem to apply. Is it one or the other, or could it be both but in different contexts.
Here's some verses.
The clearest text for unconditional forgiveness is Mark 11:25-26: "And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive them so that your Father in heaven will also forgive your wrongdoing. But if you don't forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your wrongdoing."
We have the same thought in Matt 6:14-15. "If you forgive others your Father in heaven will forgive you, but if you don't forgive people your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing."
Then we have Luke 23:4 and parallels: :Father forgive them for they don't know what they are doing." Whilst Jesus is not forgiving people himself, his prayer presumably expresses his heart's desire that they be forgiven.
Advocates of conditional forgiveness point to Luke 17:3-4 which says:
“Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
They also point out, more generally, that since we can only receive God's forgiveness if we repent (could call this vertical forgiveness) then forgiveness between believers (horizontal forgiveness) should mirror that - i.e. you need to repent to be forgiven.
And then we have the parable of the unmerciful servant in
Matt 18:21-35. Both camps can make a claim on this one. In this parable, Jesus compares sin to a financial debt. Conditionals can say that neither servant got any mercy without first asking for it, whereas unconditionals argue we should interpret the parable in the light of the punchline in v33 (you should have forgiven because I forgave you) rather than interpreting the details. But if we're interpreting details, how do we interpret the other details in the parable? For example since the second servant didn't ask for the debt to be cancelled, just time to pay it off, does this mean we can pay of the debt of sin by our own works? That removes the need for any kind of forgiveness.
Whilst I don't think Jesus left us with a systematical theology of teaching, I do think there is always an underlying consistency to his teaching. So where's that consistency here?
Here's where's I've got to so far. God is generous with forgiveness and, as forgiven people ourselves, we are to demonstrate that generosity to the world by a forgiving attitude of our own. In short, we live a lifestyle of forgiveness.
In the context of the community of faith - the church - Jesus expects us to face up sin. Prior to the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matt 18:15-20 gives Jesus's teaching on church discipline which, in extremis, leads to excommunication.
Applying church discipline and granting forgiveness are two different things. Forgiveness is the willingness to cancel debts of sin - an attitude of the heart. But if someone doesn't want to be forgiven they will experiences the consequences of their sin.
As far as Luke 17 goes I see this as describing two types of behaviour that characterise the community. People who sin can expect to be rebuked, and when they respond to that they can be confident they will be forgiven. The passage doesn't say what will happen if they don't repent. If forgiveness is conditional, what does not being forgiven involve in this context? Interpreting beyond the main point also leads to absurdities. If someone repeats the same sin "seven times in a day" it looks like they haven't "repented" once since there is no change in behaviour (!).
The last dimension is what Jesus expects of us with regards people who do not repent and are not part of the community of faith. In this case, I can't find any grounds for conditional forgiveness (not saying is none - I just can't see it). Jesus calls on us to pray for those who persecute us Matt 5:44, an idea Paul picks up and applies in Romans when he enjoins the church to bless those persecute them, not to seek revenge, and to leave room for God's wrath. That's Romans 12:9-21. This is also consistent with Jesus's unconditional cry for the forgiveness of his executioners.
I'm not expecting any kind of resolution to this. Both conditional and unconditional camps are well established and have respectable grounds for their positions. I value the opportunity to ensue I have understood and reflected on these positions accurately.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
If I had common sense, I'd stay out of this until more knowledgeable Shipmates came by, but it's a slow day here...
I would be interested in knowing whether the same word is being translated as "forgive" through the cites you reference, or whether there are different terms that are just being given the same translation.
The genesis of that thought is a memory of C.S. Lewis' distinction between "excusing" and forgiving." IIRC, there is conduct for which there is a valid defense--an excuse. Lewis suggests that no further action is needed with regard to that conduct: God, knowing all, automatically excuses it without being asked. Unconditional. What is left is the stuff that is, literally, "inexcusable"--but not unforgivable through the grace of God. That inexcusable conduct requires us to acknowledge the error. We cannot cling to our inexcusable ways and expect forgiveness--we have to seek it. Conditional.
So, to fit it in with your examples: Jesus on the cross is making a case for the conduct being excusable "they do not know what they are doing." In many ways, the same would be true of much conduct of those who are not part of the community of faith: they do not know any better, and can be excused. On the other hand, members of the community who do know they are committing sin, that does not have an excuse. They need to seek forgiveness (which will be given). If they do not seek forgiveness, they persist in the "inexcusable" conduct.
So I wonder if the original language uses different terms similar to the English "forgive" and "excuse"--having similar meaning but with an important difference at the core--which just tends to be translated as "forgive."
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think Mark 11:25-26, Matt 6:14-15 and Matt 18:21-35 need to be understood first and foremost in terms of us being consistent. It is unreasonable for us to withhold forgiveness having been forgiven by God, and we are enjoined to forgive in similar manner to the way God forgives us (which is, I would argue, conditionally...).
One of the articles linked to in the other thread makes a useful distinction between forgiveness and "forgivingness", or being of a forgiving disposition. Which is where I think Eph 4:32 fits in: quote:
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
However, being of a forgiving disposition does not mean we should unconditionally forgive a specific wrong or offence. To my mind this is why Jesus and Stephen prayed as they did. They were exhibiting a forgiving disposition, but not offering forgiveness to their killers directly or unilaterally.
Similarly, praying for those who persecute us and loving our enemies are evidence of a forgiving disposition, but they are not at all the same as granting forgiveness for a specific individual wrong done.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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