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Source: (consider it) Thread: The story of broken relationships
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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One detail that has not been mentioned.

In the story as Jesus told it, the younger son spent his money on "riotous living". When he returns, his older brother accuses him of spending his money on prostitutes. In fact, the older brother had no way of knowing exactly how the money had been wasted.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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pillow talk? [Snigger]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One detail that has not been mentioned.

In the story as Jesus told it, the younger son spent his money on "riotous living". When he returns, his older brother accuses him of spending his money on prostitutes. In fact, the older brother had no way of knowing exactly how the money had been wasted.

My pastor was discussing that in his sermon. His take is that, while the father had no idea what had happened to the younger son (even thinking him dead), the older brother knew all along where his brother was and what had happened to him (presumably having been told by his friends or whatever) and he took no steps to help or tell his grieving father. Just before the parables began, the scribes and pharisees were criticizing Jesus for hanging out and dining with sinners. The "sinner" in the parable is the elder son, and yet the father begs him to join the party.

The scribes etc. did not want to associate with sinners--but Jesus shows us that is the wrong approach. The question to ponder for ourselves is: who do we not want to associate with?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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It could be, I suppose. But it's also possible that the elder son was making assumptions (in which case it's interesting to note his ideas of what constitutes a wild life. Some personal wishes of his own, perhaps?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It could be, I suppose. But it's also possible that the elder son was making assumptions (in which case it's interesting to note his ideas of what constitutes a wild life. Some personal wishes of his own, perhaps?

Now you're gettin' nasty.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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I find the idea of the elder son accusing his younger brother without basis interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I don't know Greek - but according to my favourite English-Greek study bible, the phrase "with a wild lifestyle" is from the Greek word ζῶν.

Strongs seems to imply this just means "life". I wonder if this suggests translators are stretching the meaning of Luke 15:13 to take account of the brother's accusation of using prostitutes in 15:30.

The Dean at my gaff yesterday was talking about God's motherly nature, keeping a special look-out for those who wander away, welcoming them back into the fold.

Thanks to LeRoc, I noted the part of the reading referring to famine and I was reflecting on our tendency to blame victims and suggest that they should more-or-less "make their bed and lie in it" with reference to the current refugee crisis in Europe.

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arse

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hatless

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# 3365

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It's not appropriate to speculate too much about who knew what or what the truth was, because it's just a story. It has the information supplied by the story teller and that's it. The only back story we are entitled to come up with is that which would have been obvious to the teller and the audience.

The older son's verdict looks to me like the sort of thing an unsympathetic person would say. We cannot assume he has sources of information we the audience do not have.

The word used in the narrator's description on the younger son's lifestyle is asotos, long 'o's. Zoe, life, asotos - translated as loose, prodigal or riotous.

My Greek is very weak, but I think asotos is an adjective formed by negating sozo (long 'o's again). Sozo means to save, heal or make whole, and shares the root of soter, saviour. An interesting word given the importance of salvation or soteriology for Christianity.

Its negative might mean loose or uncontrolled, which is sort of the opposite of whole. It might mean risky or reckless - unsafe in English. Or it could imply very open-handed, or spendthrift. Prodigal is quite a neutral word today, and could just imply spending or even investing a lot, though our grandparents might have been alarmed by it.

Henri Nouwen said that we are both the younger son and the older son, but that we are called to become the father. I really like that.

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My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It could be, I suppose. But it's also possible that the elder son was making assumptions (in which case it's interesting to note his ideas of what constitutes a wild life. Some personal wishes of his own, perhaps?

That's what I was thinking when I said "pillow talk" (altho I guess I was implying a bit more than "wishes")

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It could be, I suppose. But it's also possible that the elder son was making assumptions (in which case it's interesting to note his ideas of what constitutes a wild life. Some personal wishes of his own, perhaps?

I think the latter is more likely than the older brother getting reports from friends, especially since the text says the younger brother was in a "distant country." I have little trouble imagining the older brother thinking something along the lines of "Really?! You mean instead of working my @@$ off here and always being 'the good son,' I could have gone off and enjoyed life, doing anything I wanted to do, and still come home to this kind of welcome?!" That's what I was referring to above when I mentioned the older brother's envy.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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Which also fits with the Father's response: "Really? Life here with me-- life with the Father, in the Kingdom-- is so onerous that you're envious of some other life???"

Which I think is a powerful statement re the Kingdom a la the parable of the great banquet, and a challenge to the way we often think of our life in Christ.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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shamwari
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# 15556

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Jesus is encapsulating the gospel in a story.

"Father give me." -- that is the essence of 'sin'.

"He went into a far country" -- that is the consequence of sin. It separates us from God,

"He came to his sesnes". -- that is the first step in repentance.

"I have sinned" -- the recognition of wrongdoing in essential.

"I will arise and go to my Father" - repentance involves turning our back on one way of life and heading towards God.

"While he was yet a long way off......) God waits and welcomes us with forgiveness. He doesn't read the Riot Act to the returning Prodigal but orders a Celebration.

No Cross in this story? An Indian preacher saw it. He told the story and said that the Prodigal son noticed that, in the intervening years, his Father's hair had turned white -- with anxiety and suffering for a wayward son.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
shamwari: "Father give me." -- that is the essence of 'sin'.
Give us this day our daily bread.


You're giving us the 'traditional' interpretation of this text. You're entitled to it of course but as discussed, I don't interpret it this way, and there are some good textual arguments that Jesus didn't intend this emphasis on sin and repentance.

[ 07. March 2016, 20:32: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
hatless: My Greek is very weak, but I think asotos is an adjective formed by negating sozo (long 'o's again). Sozo means to save, heal or make whole, and shares the root of soter, saviour. [...] It might mean risky or reckless - unsafe in English.
What if Jesus simply meant 'unsafe'? A neutral statement that far away from his father's house the youngest son was exposed to more dangers, without a moral evaluation such as 'reckless'?

Suppose for a moment that Jesus didn't mean that the younger brother lived a life of drunkenness and whorery (how do you say this in English?). He was just travelling a lot, met a lot of interesting people, did artistic things, spent his money in a lot of places (διεσκόρπισεν: 'scattered') … This pretty much describes my life, so you can see why I'm rooting a bit for the younger brother here [Smile]

He would have been OK if it wasn't for the famine. His destitution wasn't entirely his fault.

quote:
cliffdweller: Which also fits with the Father's response: "Really? Life here with me-- life with the Father, in the Kingdom-- is so onerous that you're envious of some other life???"
A rather free interpretation of verse 31 [Biased]


I'm tending towards the 'pillow talk' interpretation also. The older brother just assumed that the other one hung out with prostitutes. It is interesting that the Pharisees accused Jesus of hanging out with bad folk. Maybe we are getting the sanitised version, and they made false accusations that went even further? And Jesus lets the older brother make the same false accusation, turning it back on them.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
shamwari: "Father give me." -- that is the essence of 'sin'.
Give us this day our daily bread.


You're giving us the 'traditional' interpretation of this text. You're entitled to it of course but as discussed, I don't interpret it this way, and there are some good textual arguments that Jesus didn't intend this emphasis on sin and repentance.

Yeah, I can't see how "Father, give me" is the essence of sin—especially since the (or at least a) logical conclusion to the Father's "everything that is mine is yours" is "all you ever had to do was ask."

And, as you say, there's Jesus's instruction on how to pray.

If anything, it seems to me that the essence of sin is "Father? What Father? Neighbor? What neighbor? All I care about is Me."

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Suppose for a moment that Jesus didn't mean that the younger brother lived a life of drunkenness and whorery (how do you say this in English?).

Debauchery?

quote:
I'm tending towards the 'pillow talk' interpretation also. The older brother just assumed that the other one hung out with prostitutes. It is interesting that the Pharisees accused Jesus of hanging out with bad folk. Maybe we are getting the sanitised version, and they made false accusations that went even further? And Jesus lets the older brother make the same false accusation, turning it back on them.
Yes, I think there is a strong case to be made that the older brother is meant to represent the Pharisees. "I did everything you asked" being the parable equivalent of the Pharisees following all the prescribed rituals carefully (and proud of themselves for doing so). But they did not welcome sinners in their presence (hence their complaints about Jesus associating with such trash). Compare that with the older brother refusing to associate with his own brother. And doing so on what, in his mind, is quite righteous grounds. But we are meant to see that he was wrong to do so, just as the Pharisees were wrong in their attitude towards sinners as well.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

a life of drunkenness and whorery (how do you say this in English?).

Whoring might be the word you're looking for.
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Anselm
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# 4499

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Echoing the thoughts of others on this thread, I think it's important to keep the context in view with interpreting this parable.

Jesus is responding to the grumblings of the Pharisees and Scribes that he "receives sinners and eats with them". He then proceeds to tell three parables (the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son).

The first two emphasise joy in heaven at the sinner who repents (and the lengths God will go to to save the lost).
The third parable recounts a lost and found son, but instead climaxes with the interaction with the older son. The story ends with the older son OUTSIDE the feast...what will he do?

The open-ended story is an invitation for the Pharisees to literally finish the story for themselves. Will they 'enter the feast'? or will their disdain for the gracious welcome of sinners keep them out of the feast of the kingdom?

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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?

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