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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Exclamation Marks!
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
New DofE guidelines say that primary school pupils wil lose marks in tests if they use exclamation marks where the sentence does not start with "How" or "What".
link
While I'm sure most people get annoyed when someone types in breathless gasps, each one punctuated by an overused and weary exclamation mark whose very ubiquity has robbed it of any expressive or grammatical function, this seems to be an odd decision. Surely a lot of sentences starting with "How" or "What" are going to end with question marks?
An exclamation mark, well used, can be used correctly in many settings which the DofE would now dock marks for. Wake up! is not the same thing to read as "Wake up."
What do you think? How are they going to make that work? (I needed a question mark there, couldn't use an exclamation mark. Maybe they need to wheel out the interrobang, but then what would be left for ! to do?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I agree that exclamation marks are indeed over-used - but this rule is potty and mechanistic.
By the way, it does not make exclamation marks mandatory at the end of sentences beginning with "How" and "What"!
(Whoops, I just lost a mark there!)
(And another!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
More stupidity from 'those on high'!! Why don't they leave those teachers alone!! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
By the way, it does not make exclamation marks mandatory at the end of sentences beginning with "How" and "What"!
Well, yes, I understand that, it's pretty obviously stated in the article. I was just trying to work out how I would actually get to use one, without the DofE marks fairies coming to dock me points. Even trying purposely to construct sentences starting with "What" and "How" in order to use one, I needed to use a question mark. That was what I was trying to illustrate, in which endeavour I clearly failed abjectly.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
What the fuck!
(See? I'm following the rules.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
Ah, but you were asking a question. I would suggest that you should have used a question mark or more appropriately, but more obscurely, an interrobang there.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I'm wondering if anybody has any idea where they've plucked this supposed rule of punctuation from?
I'm a big fan of grammar and punctuation, and enjoy applying my pedantry mercilessly to published matter, but I've never been aware of such a restriction on exclamation mark use.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I guess they are over-used by some kids, but the supposed rule is pretty inaccurate, because exclamations need not begin with 'how' or 'what'. For example, 'I love you!, or 'it was a crazy crazy day!'.
I remember being rather addicted to them, when I was writing seriously, and I had to prune savagely, otherwise it starts to look like some gushy magazine article about high heels or knickers. Knickers to you!
My sig shows how much I have regressed. Ah, bliss. Or even, bliss!
[ 07. March 2016, 15:18: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doone:
Why don't they leave those teachers alone!!
Doesn't quite have the ring to it that the Pink Floyd version had. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
When I was young, I was playing in a brass band … It had this stencilled magazine that was distributed among its members … It mostly contained stories about past events … Literally every sentence in it ended with an ellipsis …
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
IME, real people don't use constructions like 'How exciting!' or 'What a lovely day!' unless they are being arch or sarcastic.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
IME, real people don't use constructions like 'How exciting!' or 'What a lovely day!' unless they are being arch or sarcastic.
Yes, I think stylistically they often sound rather naive, or as you say, sarcastic. But is this the intention of the rule? I don't know, but of course, there are many exclamations that don't need 'how' or 'what'.
Example from the blessed Dane:
"Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd!"
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
New DofE guidelines say that primary school pupils wil lose marks in tests if they use exclamation marks where the sentence does not start with "How" or "What".
Fuck that! Perhaps it should have been How should one fuck that! or What should one fuck!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
"A horse, a horse. My kingdom for a horse."
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
IME, real people don't use constructions like 'How exciting!' or 'What a lovely day!' unless they are being arch or sarcastic.
I do. And I'm not being either. What's wrong with saying "What a lovely day"?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Goodness! (should that be 'How Goodness!' or 'Why Goodness!'?)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
IME, real people don't use constructions like 'How exciting!' or 'What a lovely day!' unless they are being arch or sarcastic.
Oh hell yes they do!
It is a poor implementation of a possibly reasonable aim, rendered unreasonable.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Example from the blessed Dane
"Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd!"
Young Master Shakespeare has chalked himself up quite a few dropped marks there.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
First we're recognised and then rejected ....
As soon as I'd posted, I thought of you when the thread title appeared in the threads list in Purg.
Sorry! X
I mean "How sorry I am!" Obviously.
So it looks like nobody here knows where they're getting this "only how and what" rule.
I have to admit, I hadn't even really thought of "How thrilling!" Or "what fun!" - it's been a while since I read Enid Blyton, which might be the last place where such expressions were used regularly without any trace of archness or irony.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
What in the entire fuck are they thinking?!
Satisfying two punctuational imperatives in a single sentence, and losing no marks in the process.
AFF
You need one of these ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
luvanddaisies: You need one of these
You mean this one‽
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
The AV/KJV, ie the really inspired version, uses exclamation marks in sentences not beginning with How or What (eg Matt. 23:16), so if it's OK for God....
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
This is in Purgatory‽
To Heaven with it.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
A move to Heaven. How exciting!
If memory serves, the comic book writer Steve Englehart decided that he hated sentences that ended in a boring old period, so his comic book dialogue is sprinkled with lots of "!"s and "?"s and the occasional "--" (people interrupt each other rather frequently in his works to make exclamations).
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Translating French to English I weed out lots of exclamation marks. British English thrives on understatement.
I half-remember a nice piece of Reader's Digest prose complaining about various sorts of punctuation, along the following lines:
"I hate full stops. They're so final. Like death. And commas, too; every time I use one, it feels, somehow, as though I've stubbed my toe."
(And so on).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I wonder if it's possible to write a story where no sentence ends with a full stop. Sure, you could write just a lot of screams with explanation marks like they do on the internet, but I'm talking about a story where at first reading you wouldn't even notice it. So I guess what we have is the exclamation and question mark, ellipsis, interruptions …
quote:
Eutychus: Translating French to English I weed out lots of exclamation marks. British English thrives on understatement.
And in French, you have a space before the exclamation mark !
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I wonder if it's possible to write a story where no sentence ends with a full stop.
I recall when reading Ernest Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls that there were quite long passages when I was begging for a stop. Any stop. Please make it stop.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
This is in Purgatory‽
To Heaven with it.
/hosting
I'd been hoping it might turn into a discussion both of the punctuation thing (where did that rule come from) and about the style of prescriptiveness in schools. It didn't, so I guess it rather failed on all counts.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I recall when reading Ernest Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls that there were quite long passages when I was begging for a stop. Any stop. Please make it stop.
Much like some of St. Paul's Epistles.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And in French, you have a space before the exclamation mark !
Yes, indeed. As well as before colons and semicolons. It's very hard not to put one after a while, things look all squashed without it.
In English (in work, at least) I also make a point of putting long lines (whatever they are called) instead of hyphens between non-hyphenated words, following The Economist style – and they look a lot nicer.
Luvanddaisies, speaking in an unofficial capacity, my apologies, and feel free to try again, but in present company I get the feeling any discussion of punctuation is going to get drawn Heavenward like a moth to a flame...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Hedgehog: I recall when reading Ernest Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls that there were quite long passages when I was begging for a stop.
Really? I'm reading FHtBT now, and I don't have this feeling.
Better don't read anything by José Saramago then, where every sentence is easily two pages.
@luvanddaisies: I did like your OP in Purg, I guess the reason there isn't much discussion is that we all agree that these new guidelines are ridiculous.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
My initial reaction to this diktat sums up why it is wrong. "Bugger me!" and "Bugger me." are, respectively, an exclamation and an invitation.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Better keep schoolkids away from the National anthem; the first three lines all end with an exclamation mark.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
They must be invisible in the version I looked up, then:
O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Not a punctuation mark in sight!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Some years ago when I worked for a software company I wrote a document for publication about a new product we had just released. I was pleased with what I had written, but unfortunately, the marketing department got their grubby little hands on it before it was published.
Not only did they fragment all my sentences. Which was bad enough. They also added lots of exclamation marks! Everywhere! Literally!
This makes it look more "dynamic"! Apparently! Most embarrassing of all though! Was that my name appeared as the author!
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Ariel: What's wrong with saying "What a lovely day"?
What's wrong is that this is never true in England ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
No - the surprise comes because it is so rare!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Ariel: What's wrong with saying "What a lovely day"?
What's wrong is that this is never true in England
It probably isn't in Milton Keynes. The Cotswolds and Shakespeare Country are a different story. I have noticed there are micro-climates within these, where summer lingers for a few weeks more than in other places.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Surely sentences beginning 'How' or 'What' should end in a QUESTION mark, not an exclamation mark. I am wondering whether the pedants have made a mistake.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Both are possible, hence: "What an ugly baby!" or "How disgusting!"
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
While I accept that docking the odd mark for excessive (or actually erroneous) use of the exclamation mark is probably a good thing, I hope that teachers employ a bit of nous about it.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
The question is whether exam markers will be allowed that discretion.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
My initial reaction to this diktat sums up why it is wrong. "Bugger me!" and "Bugger me." are, respectively, an exclamation and an invitation.
Best response I've seen, and unquestionably accurate. It would be wonderful to see how the DofE would respond to that.
(My poor little iPad nearly ended up covered in noodles when I read it though.)
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Hedgehog: I recall when reading Ernest Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls that there were quite long passages when I was begging for a stop.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Really? I'm reading FHtBT now, and I don't have this feeling.
Yes - I thought Hemingway was famed for his short focused sentence structure?
(Or should that have been an exclamation mark?). What a dilemma!
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Hedgehog: I recall when reading Ernest Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls that there were quite long passages when I was begging for a stop.
Really? I'm reading FHtBT now, and I don't have this feeling.
I am willing to admit that my memory is not the best, and I am reaching back about, oh, 40 years now. It is possible that I am confusing Ernie with somebody else. Although, strangely, my specific memory is that about two-thirds of the way through the book is when the sentences began to ramble. Why I would remember the location in the book with such clarity while not having a certain memory of the author or title is...well, for my memory, pretty much par for the course.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Okay, I haven't reached two-thirds of the book yet. I'll have a look.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Some years ago when I worked for a software company I wrote a document for publication about a new product we had just released. I was pleased with what I had written, but unfortunately, the marketing department got their grubby little hands on it before it was published.
Not only did they fragment all my sentences. Which was bad enough. They also added lots of exclamation marks! Everywhere! Literally!
This makes it look more "dynamic"! Apparently! Most embarrassing of all though! Was that my name appeared as the author!
Yes, I suspect that this is what this edict is about, trying to stamp out textspeak, or yoofspeak, of the 'Saw John! Sick! Whatevs! U OK?' variety.
But they have gone too far, and made themselves look foolish.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Personally, I thought an interrobang was where she quizzed you about your life before you had sex. Ah well.
This is stupid. Yes, some people overuse exclamation marks. Some people overuse stupid rules. Few politicians (elected or employed) overuse their brains. They don't know that sometimes it is right to use punctuation to change the meaning of a sentence! Wow. I guess if you spend your life writing government reports, the use of exclamation marks and even question marks is probably limited.
Most really innovative writers would not pass muster against the rules. Sometimes, breaking the rules is the right thing to do, because it makes the work more appropriate and right. James Joyce being a notable exception to this rule.
What is more, there is a place for really good writing using (on occasion and for effect) precisely the things that they are trying to stop. If I was representing a character who was always tweeting and usually used exclamation marks, I would want to write him in that style.
But I am aware that I write too many tweets (especially) finishing with ellipsis...
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
When do they ban poor innocent little commas?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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