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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How do you stop people from making dumb platitudes?
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
My elderly father, who will turn 90 next month, is in very bad condition, with a host of medical problems. (His slow slide into dementia and dependency was the reason why I started the "Aging Parents" thread on this board several years ago).
Here's my problem: Many people who have not been through a situation such as mine (and this includes my wife) keep offering well-meaning, but utterly annoying platitudes after I answer their inquiries about his current state. For years I have been repeatedly offered such helpful advice as:
- "Just put it out of your mind." (If that worked, psychiatrists would all be unemployed).
- "Be grateful for your own health." (God blessed me, but not my dad?)
- "No sense getting upset over something you can't do anything about." (I am supposed to turn off emotions the way I can turn off a lamp).
- "I'm sure he's getting the best of care." (No, he is not).
Such simplistic advice about difficult situations is about as helpful as pouring alcohol over a burn. It just makes things worse. With first offenders I typically just thank them and change the subject, but when it's a family member or close friend who keeps reiterating such drivel, I have tried explaining that such talk is not helpful, and that it would be far better to just listen.
Example: Years ago my mother was diagnosed with an inoperable tumor. I called an old friend. "Liz," I said, "my mother has lung cancer." Her reply? "Oh, SHIT!" She acknowledged my feelings perfectly. We chatted for a while and I thanked her. "Liz, you know when to simply listen."
Has anyone else on the Ship had to deal with this situation, be it involving a frail relative or any other problem? How have you dealt with it? Thanks.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
My elderly father, who will turn 90 next month, is in very bad condition, with a host of medical problems. (His slow slide into dementia and dependency was the reason why I started the "Aging Parents" thread on this board several years ago).
Here's my problem: Many people who have not been through a situation such as mine (and this includes my wife) keep offering well-meaning, but utterly annoying platitudes after I answer their inquiries about his current state. For years I have been repeatedly offered such helpful advice as:
- "Just put it out of your mind." (If that worked, psychiatrists would all be unemployed).
- "Be grateful for your own health." (God blessed me, but not my dad?)
- "No sense getting upset over something you can't do anything about." (I am supposed to turn off emotions the way I can turn off a lamp).
- "I'm sure he's getting the best of care." (No, he is not).
Such simplistic advice about difficult situations is about as helpful as pouring alcohol over a burn. It just makes things worse. With first offenders I typically just thank them and change the subject, but when it's a family member or close friend who keeps reiterating such drivel, I have tried explaining that such talk is not helpful, and that it would be far better to just listen. But few people seem to understand. They keep on with the platitudes, or sometimes get mad at me for not heeding their wisdom.
Example: Years ago my mother was diagnosed with an inoperable tumor. I called an old friend. "Liz," I said, "my mother has lung cancer." Her reply? "Oh, SHIT!" She acknowledged my feelings perfectly. We chatted for a while and I thanked her. "Liz, you know when to simply listen."
Has anyone else on the Ship had to deal with this situation, be it involving a frail relative or any other problem? How have you dealt with it? Thanks.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{{{{{{Squirrel}}}}}}} ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
I think that people are often scared by death, disease, and bad luck; are (subconsciously) afraid it will come visit them; and use stupid comments to push it away. FWIW.
Any chance of a support group? Or a therapist, so you'll have someone to *listen*?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You can't stop them (without a gun, anyway, or a LOT of duct tape), but you can say to them just what you've said to us. In which case they will probably huff off. But that might be all to the good, right?
I have one of those who always manages to insert foot in mouth up to hip. When I was obliged to inform her about my miscarriage (long story) I made very very sure to a) cue in the other relatives who were on the spot ahead of time, b) say "I don't want any reaction to this, but I need to tell you something", and c) walk out of the room and lock myself in the bathroom IMMEDIATELY upon giving the news.
She hasn't said a word to me about it. Which is precisely how I want it, knowing the likely alternatives.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
It's sometimes very difficult not to offer useless platitudes in situations like that; nature (and, apparently, conversation) abhors a vacuum, and often people feel that they have to say something, perhaps because they know that they can't do anything,
For myself, I know I'm guilty of saying something like "he/she had a good long innings" when I hear of the death of someone very old, even though it's probably not very helpful to the bereaved.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Listening and not speaking seems impossible for a lot of people, but there is little in the way of a cure available. I agree with the idea of a support group, they can be incredibly helpful - if there is not a specific one locally see if there is a meeting of Emotions Anonymous in your area but I would think it likely there will be a Carers' Group of some description.
Alternatively have loads of cards printed that you can give out that say:
quote:
There is nothing useful you can say so just shut the fuck up and listen to me!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Many people seem to be under the illusion that when they know about your situation, that they partly own it and therefore my talk about in any way of their choosing when they see you, not realizing their ill-manners in bringing it up and then worsening it by giving platitudes and opinion.
I think very often they are not really responding to my feelings with their words, but trying to reassure themselves about their view of life and the world, and what they might want to reassure themselves about, not me, were they to face a similar situation. Such things have made me want to avoid people in general.
FWIW, I think Squirrel that the responses in your OP which you put in (parentheses) are quite reasonable and very good, or some parallel words - it is bloody honest, which I have been told is the best policy. You can always say sorry and pretend to be after, adding that the whole thing is very troubling or some such.
quote:
Squirrel:
- "Just put it out of your mind." (If that worked, psychiatrists would all be unemployed).
- "Be grateful for your own health." (God blessed me, but not my dad?)
- "No sense getting upset over something you can't do anything about." (I am supposed to turn off emotions the way I can turn off a lamp).
- "I'm sure he's getting the best of care." (No, he is not).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
"Just put it out of your mind" is a good one. "Let it go" and "Don't worry about it" are other variations on the theme, and I was told recently, "Everybody's got stuff going on in their lives."
If you hear remarks like that, end that line of conversation there and then, change the subject and make a mental note not to waste time attempting to discuss it with that person again. They can't relate to what you're telling them and attempts to explain further are going to be futile and annoying on both sides. In some cases they haven't got the sensitivity to listen, either: and they don't all want to. "Put it out of your mind" can also sometimes be a way of saying "I'm not interested in your problem and I want to talk about something else."
There are, unfortunately, people around who lack the emotional depth to respond helpfully, not just the experience to do so; the saying that you find out who your friends are when you're in difficulties is quite true.
[ 01. November 2015, 04:55: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
When the twins died I got a lot of vomitous platitudes from otherwise loving people. "God must have wanted two little angels" was probably the most common (and worst).
But one friend, when I called and told her, simply said, "No!" with a choked sob. That was the right response.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Squirrel--
You might want to make a bunch of copies of "10 Things Not To Say To Caregivers" (Alzheimers.About.com). Maybe even post it on a wall somewhere. Especially the bit about what TO say.
FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
But you see, I would find, 'he/she had a good long innings' (where true) very helpful and appropriate, and 'put it out of your mind' helpful advice.
So perhaps those people are genuinely trying to help. Perhaps it's knowing the person.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It's awkward to know what to say.
The STFU approach can lead to awkward silences which may be misinterpreted as hostile or indifferent or embarassed.
The "I believe in an omnipotent omniscient God and so you don't understand his motives" doesn't play well with those of use who don't believe in such a deity. Similarly platitudes about God's Will or I'll offer my prayers can really irritate as yuor examples.
I usually say; I'm sorry for your loss or your relatives hardship. It always feels inadequate.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I can only say that "put it out of your mind" and similar remarks, when you've been waking up in the small hours with something on your mind, is for me profoundly unhelpful and comes across as dismissive. Especially when they then want to either take it on themselves to correct your negative thinking, or else then launch into telling you, as it might be, how they're getting on with their latest DIY project.
Quite frankly, a trouble shared is a trouble doubled sometimes. And at the end of the day, nobody else can take your grief from you: you have to work through that yourself.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That list said that was wrong too, plus said to say "I'll pray for you". Perhaps the issue is contradictory advice ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I think the issue is not so much offering help as asking offering specific help - a general and vague offering of help is not very helpful but an offer to sit with next Tuesday afternoon so that the carer can go to the hairdresser or whatever...
Or, I'm going to Tesco on Thursday morning, I'll call round on my way and if you have a list & money ready I'll get what you need...
There are loads of things people CAN do to ease the burden but often off the cuff it is difficult to think of things.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think it cuts both ways, it is difficult to think what to offer. if you are not close enough to already know.
That strikes me as the main issue, if people don't know you well enough to make sensible suggestions you are willing to accept (I am not sure, for example, I would want a random work college to go sit with my elderly relative), how is it you hope people will respond ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Thanks for the support and ideas, folks. I think I will order some cards asking people to just listen, but will leave the word "fuck" out since that would not go over well with my older relatives.
I do have a support group, which does help. And I have a pastoral counselor who's phenomenal, as well as a psychiatrist who helps with meds.
Looking back, I think I left out of my OP the most annoying comment I sometimes hear:
quote:
"Although we don't understand it, this is part of God's plan"
GRRRRRRRR..... I feel the steam coming out of my ears like you would see in old children's cartoon shows.
Some of you wrote about how the other person probably cannot handle a situation like that which I am facing. Perhaps their platitudes are their way of trying to re-assure themselves that things won't be so bad when it's there turn. Sorry, pal. It will be.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
That strikes me as the main issue, if people don't know you well enough to make sensible suggestions you are willing to accept (I am not sure, for example, I would want a random work college to go sit with my elderly relative), how is it you hope people will respond ?
Just reassurance that they're taking it seriously. Few things hurt more than having your concerns dismissed with an airy "don't worry about it" or "everybody's got problems, there's always someone worse off than yourself". Friends aren't counsellors and shouldn't be expected to act as such, but the occasional "Jeez, I'm really sorry to hear that" said sincerely can go a long way just by itself.
I don't expect offers of help, it's not their problem. To me, an acceptable response would be a genuine acknowledgement that they understand someone is going through a difficult period. They can then decide to avoid you from that point on if they want, that's fine, at least they've been sincere meanwhile. If they stick around to give you moral support and encouragement after that, you have a true friend.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
I am so glad I'm not the only person who gets wound up by this. When I have the anvil on my shoulders, telling me "Something is bound to come along" does not make me feel better, it makes me want to stick my hand down your throat and string you up from the nearest lamppost by your colon.
And my situation is not a patch on Squirrel's in terms of seriousness. The worst of it is that sometimes I find myself uttering them, and wondering if I hurt people with them as much as they hurt me...
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I also suggest that if you (gen.) are going to drop off a casserole, etc., for someone, don't expect to be invited in. I went through that as a kid, after various deaths. The recipient may not be in any shape to be seen, let alone have a visitor. OTOH, some people would leave the casserole, ring the doorbell, and drive away. (Don't remember anyone calling first, and this was before answering machines.) While the 2nd approach was annoying and still meant getting out of bed, at least didn't involve interaction.
IOW, try to consider the person's needs, ask what they need, and give them room to say "no" and respect that if they do.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It's awkward to know what to say.
...
I usually say; I'm sorry for your loss or your relatives hardship. It always feels inadequate.
DING DING DING DING DING! You win the prize. It feels inadequate because it IS inadequate, as is every other thing we could possibly say or do. But it's honest inadequate, and it doesn't add any more pain at all--which is a lovely, wonderful, comforting thing.
I think a lot of the problem lies with people automatically thinking they're being asked for a solution of some sort--advice to make the situation better--when there probably isn't any such thing in existence, and even if there was, it would be a professional's job to dispense the advice. I catch myself doing this sometimes, and then I get mad at myself for being an inadvertent asshole.
Sometimes they just want you to listen.
PS I've taught my son that the proper response to appalling news is "Oh shit" (or a politer version of the same for tender ears). No one can fix my sister's cancer, but the emotional reaction at least tells me that someone cares.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
"I'm sorry [for your loss]" is the perfect thing to say, if you don't go any further. It says you care enough to feel their pain, and it says you care enough to not try to force platitudes or unsolicited advice on them. The "for your loss" part is if someone has had a family member or friend (or pet) die. If they get half their foot chopped off in a lawnmower, as Babs did, it might not be welcome from someone who isn't close enough to joke like that.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Frankly, I cut people some slack. At least they are talking to you. Some people act like bad situations are catching and retreat across the horizon. Or they are afraid that most things they might say will end up being resented (which might be true according to this thread) so they don't take the chance.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.
I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.
[ 01. November 2015, 23:33: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Interestingly I just read this article about this same subject here:
Not everything happens for a reason.
Personally I incline towards saying something along the lines of "That sucks big time."
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.
It's great if you can do that. Unfortunately, a lot of us turn into total bitches-on-wheels when we've been ka-thumped by some tragedy.
[whistles and looks at the ceiling]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.
I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.
If you can do that when your spouse just died, God bless you. Not everybody can be that sanguine.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition, so I avoid it. If I'm saddened by the news, I'll find a way to say so, but mostly I'll say that I can't find useful words, and then immediately ask the person giving me the news how he/she is doing, which is generally much more relevant. When I had to tell a much older friend that I was dealing with a dose of cancer, his reaction was the same as Squirrel's friend: "Oh shit!", which was exactly how I felt, and we went straight from there to talking about how he could help. My wife's response to bad news is almost always, "I'll be round there with a pie" (or dinner etc etc). She does platters, not platitudes.
I've committed some real blunders over the years, though, and I doubt anyone gets it right first time.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.
I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.
If you can do that when your spouse just died, God bless you. Not everybody can be that sanguine.
Note the word 'try'.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.
I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.
If you can do that when your spouse just died, God bless you. Not everybody can be that sanguine.
Note the word 'try'.
When my husband died from a freak accident, I was too flattened to try.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
A platitude is really just a kind of cliché. Good writers and speakers avoid cliché. Good carers - I mean people who care in the broadest sense - will avoid platitude.
It's not easy. To avoid platitude, you have to shy away from saying or doing anything that you merely have in your "storehouse of responses", and that's especially difficult when you're surprised by something. Sometimes a platitude isn't a failure to care, it's a failure of imagination or creativity. I usually find that a lot easier to indulge.
I've found - in a similar situation to yours, Squirrel, or always after a bereavement - that the platitudes weary me less than just being expected to tell the story over and over again to everyone you meet. How many times can you tell the story "X died" without screaming inside "If I have to say these words one more time...!!"? What I learned to do years ago was to tell the story to a few close people I could trust, and give them permission to tell everyone else. That way, if nothing else, it wasn't me hearing the platitudinous responses.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That someone was an idiot.
It's perfectly reasonable - I would go so far as to say a sign of a decent human being - to feel and express sorrow upon hearing of someone's misfortune or some other bad news. This doesn't imply any degree of responsibility for whatever has happened. I can't imagine why anybody would think that it would.
I should like to think that most people have enough sense to know that when they tell a friend that they have lost a loved one, and the friend gives them a hug and says, 'I'm so sorry', that this isn't to be construed as an -admission of murder.
Too often people are willing to take umbrage at others' good intentions, determined to find ill will where none exists. People who find themselves on the receiving end of someone's story of tribulation may be able to relate and may want to let the suffering person know that they aren't alone. Yet how many times has 'I think I understand' received a hostile response of, 'You can't possibly understand'? It's only the person's condition of grief or other heightened emotion that makes excusable what in any other situation would be plain rudeness.
In actuality, I suspect that most of us are capable of understanding pain, loss, worry, fear, marginalisation, loneliness, isolation, &c, even if the particular circumstances of our experience are not exactly the same as the other person's. If I need a shoulder to cry on, or if I'm frustrated about something, and I turn to someone to cry/vent, I appreciate it when the person expresses some understanding of what I'm saying.
Sometimes, yes, people do say stupid things in response, and that's likely because of this:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
It's sometimes very difficult not to offer useless platitudes in situations like that; nature (and, apparently, conversation) abhors a vacuum, and often people feel that they have to say something, perhaps because they know that they can't do anything,
They may not know what to say, they may have limited experience of dealing with people who are in difficulties or who are hurting, yet at the same time they may not want to appear unfeeling.
I can think of two separate occasions off the top of my head on which I was in difficult situation and the person I spoke with about it (not the same person each time) said something that actually infuriated me. In both cases, it went beyond platitude and entered the realm of unsolicited advice, forcefully and insistently given, which dismissed what I was actually feeling.
Yet, there is so much actual animosity and hatred in the world that I saw little point in responding with anger to people's attempts - however misguided - to help. I just made it clear that what was being offered wasn't helping, showed gratitude, and changed the subject.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s better to keep this sort of thing private. I don't always want to talk about it, and I don't want fake sympathy or to make others feel embarrassed and uncomfortable (or annoyed at having to hear the latest developments). There's nothing they can do about it and they can't turn the clock back. Besides, sometimes it’s nice just to have a normal conversation that isn’t overshadowed by something, just a bit of light relief.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The problem is sometimes you HAVE to tell them.
You can't really hide news of a death in your immediate family. People are bound to notice the effect on you. Similarly divorce, cancer diagnosis, and so on.
Or maybe it's just me with the glass face?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The problem is sometimes you HAVE to tell them.
No, actually, you don't. You will need to tell your employer, but most and anyone official, but most other people don't actually need to know.
quote:
You can't really hide news of a death in your immediate family. People are bound to notice the effect on you. Similarly divorce, cancer diagnosis, and so on.
They may notice that you don't look cheery but it's a safe bet that 99% of them will leave it at that and not ask any questions. This is especially true if you might be prone to depression, they'll just assume it's situation normal and leave you alone until you come out of it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That hasn't been my experience at all. I have tried to do this in the past, and generally don't get left alone until I refuse to discuss whatever-it-is with them (usually on the grounds that I'm not ready to talk about it).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
My experience so far has been that people saying anything is better than people saying nothing, because the saying nothing hangs over your relationship with that person.
But I can see that different people feel differently.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That someone was an idiot.
I would humbly disagree with you. The person who put me on the spot with that was not an idiot. I learned from the experience that there are better ways to express sadness and grief, either shared or personal.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
In South Africa, if you trip up and hurt yourself people say "I'm sorry" or often just "sorry". In other words "I feel sorry for you"
When I have been bereaved I would rather folk said anything rather than worrying about what to say. Their words are far less important than their concern and loving kindness imo.
The more caught up folk get with 'what' to say, the less likely they are to say anything at all - which is a shame.
[ 04. November 2015, 10:41: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.
All perfectly true, but it doesn't change how that particular bereaved person felt. I avoid using the word in those circumstances so it doesn't happen again.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
So qualifying it by saying "I'm sorry to hear that" and/or "I'm sorry this has happened to you" would also be out?
It seems a bit strange that people wouldn't want you to commiserate; if anyone told me they didn't want to hear "I'm sorry" I'd refrain from expressing any sentiments to them after that.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition.
As others have said, "I'm sorry" has at least two meanings: "I apologise" and "I am feeling your sorrow". At times, of course, they will overlap.
What does puzzle me though is the demand that modern-day politicians apologise for mistakes or atrocities made by their predecessors, decades or centuries ago. If they merely assure people of their regret or express their sorrow and commiseration, they are castigated. But I don't see how they can offer any proper apology for something they didn't do.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.
All perfectly true, but it doesn't change how that particular bereaved person felt. I avoid using the word in those circumstances so it doesn't happen again.
This policy will eventually leave one silent in the face of bereavement because anything one says could possibly set someone off. You had one person react badly, because of their own linguistic ignorance, to a very standard, near-universally-accepted, and heartfelt condolence statement. I'm not sure that's a good reason to give up saying "I'm so sorry for your loss."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What does puzzle me though is the demand that modern-day politicians apologise for mistakes or atrocities made by their predecessors, decades or centuries ago. If they merely assure people of their regret or express their sorrow and commiseration, they are castigated. But I don't see how they can offer any proper apology for something they didn't do.
I think what people want is an acknowledgment that whatever happened should not have happened, and the speaker regrets it.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I agree with BT - our ancestors lived according to the laws and mores of their times. There's no point whatsoever in modern-day politicians offering empty apologies for misdeeds perpetrated hundreds of years before they were born.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.
All perfectly true, but it doesn't change how that particular bereaved person felt. I avoid using the word in those circumstances so it doesn't happen again.
This policy will eventually leave one silent in the face of bereavement..."
Not so. It makes one more thoughtful in the choice of words; a lesson that can be usefully applied to many other circumstances.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I suspect that's a rare reaction, though. "I'm sorry to hear that" and the like are normal statements expressing sorrow, regardless of this one person's confusion. I certainly would never say it to him/her again, but that's true of just about any statement--someone can and likely will take it the wrong way, and so it is important to pay attention to what you know of the person. And to cut them some slack if they react badly.
It reminds me of a really odd reaction I ran into last week (obliquely--I wasn't the one who provoked it, though I could have been!). The person was describing a horrible but wholly unpredictable medical diagnosis, and she got really angry when anyone would attempt to sympathize by saying something like "my cousin survived that ten years ago." She seemed to be taking it as a way of saying "you're over-reacting," though from all I could see, what the people were doing was attempting to offer her hope.
I guess we just have to do the best we can.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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