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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How do you stop people from making dumb platitudes?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I just realised that "I'm sorry to hear that" has a rather beautiful translation, not in Dutch, but in the Lower Saxon dialect that is my mother tongue (t Begroot mie). It expresses an amount of feeling sorry, without implying that you're guilty.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Not so. It makes one more thoughtful in the choice of words; a lesson that can be usefully applied to many other circumstances.
If the most commonly used locution in the English language for expressing condolences to someone who is grieving can get you excoriated, what is the point in trying to thoughtfully choose words? The bar is too high. There is nothing one could say that somebody, somewhere, wouldn't take offense to. Seriously, "I'm sorry to hear of your loss" IS a thoughtful choice of words. Your acquaintance was simply wrong.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I guess we just have to do the best we can.
As someone currently going through the immediate aftermath of my mother's unexpected death, I have been taking everything anyone says as evidence that they want to express their sympathy and love. However badly they phrase themselves, they are still trying to make a connection with me to let me know they share my sadness.
I say this as the sister of someone who makes a joke of everything, including Mum's death. Its his way of coping, and boy does it rile me. But I know this is how he expresses his sadness - he's an emotional person who doesn't have the words to express his emotions in ways I can. He has done his best to tone it down, and I have (successfully) managed not to react angrily.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I agree - the proper approach is to take it as a sincere expression of sorrow pure and simple, normally not of any sort of admission of blame (I accept that there may be some instances where that is so). OK, it may be a platitude, all sorts of other expressions may also be platitudes. but that does not mean that there is no genuine feeling behind.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I was away from church for a few weeks when my Dad died in another town. When I got back an elderly man who often sits next to me gave me a hug. I was totally gobsmacked as he is an undemonstrative, self-contained person - but it was lovely. Most of my surprise was because I find unexpected hugs difficult to deal with, but this was healing.
The thing is that that sometimes the most unlikely (to me) people can get it so right.
I think Arabella is right about people wanting to express their sympathy and love. Sometimes I think of the enormity of the loss someone has experienced and I know the words won't ever be enough. I get tongue tied and mumble about being sorry for their loss - which at least acknowledges it.
Fortunately no one has ever said, God does not send any more than we can bear to me, as that would probably be more than I could bear with equanimity.
(or maybe the fact that no one has is a sign that God doesn't).
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Not everyone is linguistically skilled enough or has the people skills to know how to approach someone who has suffered loss. The awkward words may be used with just as much feeling and caring as the clever appropriate words. I think, although it hurts, we should be grateful that someone cares enough to approach us with sympathy, even though they have done so in a gauche fashion.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I agree with bib - I see this on Facebook a lot, when people post about their own losses. I have some very articulate friends who post beautifully-worded, moving eulogies to the people they've lost. And I have other friends whose level of education, articulation and command of the English language is quite low, and they repost simplistic, sentimental memes to express their grief and their love and appreciation for the people they've lost. I find the memes really corny, but I know that it's not that their grief isn't just as strong as my more articulate friends - just that their ability to express it isn't so advanced. And that ability, or lack thereof, will extend to what they say to try to comfort others who are grieving.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Surely, too, it depends on your relationship with the person giving the platitudes/sympathy/whatever. If it's a close friend who knows you well, then their response is likely to be better attuned to your needs and personality, and will be more emotional and instinctive - so an 'Oh shit' may be more appropriate. And if it's not, then you have that kind of relationship where you can tell them, and tell them what kind of support you'd appreciate.
But personally, I wouldn't want a deep, emotional response from, say, colleagues I don't know so well. Surely most people don't want that level of engagement with everyone they tell, when they're just trying to get through the day and function. I think I'd rather have a simple 'I'm sorry - is there anything I can do?' from most people, and then have a couple of people I'm closer to that I could speak more candidly with.
I don't think there is necessarliy a right and wrong. Some people really seem to prefer the platitudes. It's all about context - about the individual situation and the preferences and personality of the person grieving. And if you don't know them well, often better to say one of the simple etiquette codes like 'I'm sorry'.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That someone was an idiot.
I would humbly disagree with you. The person who put me on the spot with that was not an idiot.
Quite so. It was wrong of me to make such a statement about somebody of whom I know nothing.
That doesn't change the fact that the statement was ridiculous, and that the lack of reasoning that led to it could only be justified by the sense of grief that the person was feeling. Grieving people are allowed not to think sensibly, and yes, those of us who seek to console them ought always to have a care for what we say so that we do not cause unnecessary hurt.
However, as has been said earlier, a policy of avoiding perfectly normal uses of the English language just because one person on one occasion misunderstood and took offence seems a very difficult one to maintain, nor can I see what merit there might be to it.
If I lose a loved one, I would be grateful for people to express sorrow, and I like to think that I wouldn't tell them off for it.
If I'm having a hard time because I'm upset or frustrated by the prejudices faced by people who tick the boxes I tick, and I turn to a friend in my upset and explain why I'm so frustrated, 'I understand' is exactly what I want to hear, because there's little worse than being upset by other people's prejudices and negative attitudes than turning to a friend with that upset, only to find that they can't see why you have a reason to be upset in the first place.
Even - or rather especially - if my friend doesn't tick the same boxes, my response should be, 'Thank you', and not, 'You shouldn't be using (insert word/expression of choice)'.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
That sounds like a semantic-pragmatic difficulty, if a person seriously thinks that 'I'm sorry' can only mean 'I apologise'. The literal, and main, meaning of 'sorry' is 'feeling sorrow'. It can also mean specifically feeling remorse, but that is just one meaning.
And 'I'm sorry' is also a social code to express sympathy for someone if they suffer a loss, to show you care about them, even if you aren't literally feeling full of sorrow. Just like 'How are you?' 'Fine' is a social code for acknowledging each other.
People get weird about taking words very literally, or taking only one particular meaning of the word. I don't understand this, unless they genuinely have a semantic-pragmatic disorder, which most don't. They often just like to be pedantic, or to play one-up-manship games.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Not referring to a mourning situation, but I remember talking to a young man I used to work with. He complained that his sister told her son that the boy ought to say "I'm sorry" when he'd accidentally hurt his little sister during play. My young colleague said that since he didn't intend to hurt her, he shouldn't feel obligated to apologize. I pointed out to him that if while we were working, he accidentally stepped on my foot (and he was a big guy! ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) ) he would likely apologize although we both would know it wasn't intentional and that I wouldn't blame him. He would just be sorry that it happened and that I was in pain. He had to admit I was right. I think I changed his mind on that one.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
Dumb platitudes are exhausting - the endless biting of the tongue or however you deal with it.
But, I try and afford sympathy to the dumb platituder (is that a word) as they are trying to be kind.
What I can't abide by - and I know one girl who does this in a package - is the one-upmanship, what she would have done and the belittling.
I have to have a sinus operation. Her response is "at least it's your sinuses and not your bottom ... me I had .... " yawn and then follows a litany of her diseases (many).
Or if I have a problem at work (frequent) she says "well I would have said bla bla bla bla bla" then follows the one-upmanship of how much tougher her job was and my job isn't that difficult.
I don't speak to her any more. Happily she doesn't speak to me.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I think (hope might be a better word) it gets easier as we get older.
A lot of the platitudes are an effort to make things right. Death - you can have another child, he's in a better place, she was old (true but she's my Mom and I want her here !) Illness, injury - others are worse off, crutches are good exercise, you'll be fine (some body parts not working right is "fine"?). It's wanting to "kiss it and make it well", what won't ever be fully well again.
Older people have lived through it, most know things are not going to be fine. The pain of your spouse's death will dim, you'll learn ways to adapt to the handicap and give up some activities no longer possible, but the pain will always be there and sometimes pop up and bite you hard.
Older folks seem more likely to say "I'm sorry" or "that hurts" - acknowledge the pain and don't try to fix or deny it.
There are still some "you haven't gotten over that yet?" or "mine was worse" etc but I think not as many because there's more empathy of experience.
Not always, just last week I was told "it doesn't seem like it right now but it's probably a blessing." Which may be true objectively but that doesn't make it the right thing to say! She meant well. You've got to cling to "they mean well." (Except for the few times they don't!)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
I was glad to have read this thread, as yesterday I was confronted by a friend in great distress (her father has been diagnosed with terminal cancer, < 12 months to live, probably).
I realised that my instinct was to try and comfort her, by saying all sorts of things that logically should bring comfort but emotionally would not - in fact, there is nothing that will bring comfort in that situation. All you can offer is love and sympathy.
Reminded me of the time I was telling a friend of my patented method for writing a condolence card. Blow me, but three days later her father died and I had to write her one! To my immense delight she told me later she'd kept it and referred to it when she had to write them ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Mrs. S, polishing her platitudes
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I am so sorry you are feeling this way. It must be very hard. Whatever I say seems so inadequate. There are no words, are there? My thoughts and prayers are with you. <<<air hugs>>>>
Lots of love to you and yours. It is a mighty loss.
(exit, shaking head sadly).
BL. Queen of platitudes. What? You expect me to THINK before I open my mouth, analyse what is worthy of my feelings or theirs and what is not, mentally scroll through several options and then say something intelligent and deep? Puhleeze. Then I will be accused of not being genuine. Some of us are just mere mortals, who are doing our best, without ignoring the person and their situation entirely. Crucify me for being inadequate, but its probably the best people like me can do.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Cherubim
Apprentice
# 18514
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Posted
There's nothing you can do to stop anyone saying anything. If you are plagued by people being platitudinous then avoid them where possible. These people rarely are interested in knowing how people fare, because it really embarrasses them and they don't know how to cope. They just think that it will go away, and when it doesn't then offering a platitude should be enough to shut you up long enough for them to either A) make their escape or B) change the subject. Get in there first and don't let them get anywhere near the subject.
Dismiss it yourself by saying that they are the same as they were yesterday and ask after them. In truth, they aren't actually interested in your life, they are only interested in theirs and it's themselves they want talk about.
Such people are predictable and demand to be treated predictably or not at all.
Posts: 10 | From: Charlton | Registered: Nov 2015
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Welcome to the Ship, Cherubim. There is a welcome thread as a fixed thread at the top of All Saints board where you can introduce yourself if you like. It is a good idea too to check each board to get the feel of it. Heaven is fairly light, queries, easy discussions. All Saints is basically support, while Hell is for rants and Purgatory for more serious discussions. Circus is self explanatory and Kerygmania for discussion of biblical passages. Dead Horses sees those topics which are often debated but a conclusion is rarely reached.
The Styx sees technical discussions and has a thread specifically for practising UBB coding. Queries about Hosts rulings go there too.
Enjoy sailing.
Lothlorien AS Host.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Bronwyn
Shipmate
# 52
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Posted
I struggle as my daughter has fragile X syndrome causing anxiety (to the point of being medicated when she was 6 with adult tablets) my father a carrier is also affected differently in that he looses his balance a lot, before physio was falling daily. It also leads to my issues of anxiety and depressssion infertility and some other struggles.
Mostly I don't say all issues at once but when I see Miri struggling I don't want to be told much. I want acknowledgment it's hard for her. Hard for me.
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Fragile X syndrome is part of our lives. Someone I love makes me proud who has this syndrome. I love you Miriam.
Posts: 1221 | From: Melbourne (Australia) | Registered: May 2001
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Bronwyn
Shipmate
# 52
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Posted
I had a situation where a mother rang and told me about a horrific issue. I was if you like very upset anyone would have to go through the situation. I had no words. I just wanted to hug her. Saying anything seemed corny. I ended up saying I've no words. She told me a lot. Nothing I could say would have made this situation better. So I listened. I listened and I listened.
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Fragile X syndrome is part of our lives. Someone I love makes me proud who has this syndrome. I love you Miriam.
Posts: 1221 | From: Melbourne (Australia) | Registered: May 2001
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