homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » When church is an introvert's hell (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: When church is an introvert's hell
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It happened again yesterday. Near the end of the service, after the sermon, we were asked to turn around to talk to and pray with the person who happened to be sat near us.

Normally, if this inflicted upon us, I choose this moment to nip out to the loo or get myself a drink of water from the back hall, but as it was the end of the service, I got up and left. It's not the first time this has happened and I wasn't the only one who left at that point.

At what point do church leaders cotton on to the fact that there's a gulf between encouraging fellowship and trying to force someone to talk about something personal to a stranger?

Others I know have issues of personal space with the 'sharing of the peace', where some of the more exuberant interpret this as meaning hugs!

Is it not unkind to inflict this upon people? Talking to people is hard enough, but I do it Monday-Friday in my job and I do a bit at church. There's often talk about "it's good to step out of your comfort zone" but without realising that for introverts, church already is a long way outside of that zone, but we go anyway. Ask us to go further and don't be surprised if there's an exodus.

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
Fredegund
Shipmate
# 17952

 - Posted      Profile for Fredegund   Email Fredegund   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That sounds so familiar. The number of times I've been asked to talk to an almost total stranger and run like h***. I don't have any useful suggestions, except perhaps to make it blindingly obvious to your leadership bods. It may seem self-evident to us, but so many people really don't get that this is agonising. I'm lucky in that folks at my local POW realise I have a problem with personal space etc etc and don't take it personally if I move to the end of a row and don't take part. It's less painful than having to leave and feeling guilty.
Posts: 117 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not particularly introverted, and as Shipmates know, I can talk for England - or Wales - when given a platform ...

But I find this practice off-putting ... not because I'm shy but because it's something imposed and inflicted on people and there are times when I don't particularly feel I've got anything to say or contribute.

I have no interest whatsoever at times in turning to the person next to me or behind me in order to discuss some aspect of the sermon or whatever else.

It's just a trendy thing that some church leaders do because they think it's a way of engaging people and making things less 'passive' - which is a laudable intention but so often applied in a crass and cack-handed way.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jack the Lass

Ship's airhead
# 3415

 - Posted      Profile for Jack the Lass   Author's homepage   Email Jack the Lass   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If I've read Sipech's previous posts correctly, I am pretty sure I used to be a member of the same church (not congo, but wider church 'movement' or whatever it's calling itself these days), and I share his experience (and feelings about it) exactly. Looks like, much like God (the same yesterday, today and forever) some things never change. I found it more and more difficult to cope with (even though, like Gamaliel, I am not particularly introverted) and it ended up being one of the reasons I left, because it was becoming a barrier to me encountering God at all. I ended up sitting at the back tutting at everything, and so realised that I also was being a barrier for those who were in fact responding to God at the time.

Leaving is obviously quite a drastic step to take! Prior to that I had a couple of long conversations with my congregation leader explaining how I felt, and whilst it was clear that he didn't really get it, it did mean that when I left he realised it wasn't a sudden hissy fit and didn't take it personally, and 14 years later I remain on good terms with my friends still there.

Several years later I remember being shocked in my (rather staid, elderly and high-up-the-candle) Episcopal Church when members objected to a really inocuous Lent group activity as overly intrusive. It hadn't even crossed my radar, in fact I thought it was gentle and really helpful as an activity (it involved writing, not even interacting face to face!) probably because what I was used to was so much more spectacularly intrusive.

I haven't read it, but I have heard the book 'Introverts in the Church: Finding our Place in an Extroverted Culture' by Adam S. McHugh highly recommended. It might be worth seeking out and suggesting your congregation leaders take a look at it too.

Best of luck with it Sipech. It's not a nice position to be in.

--------------------
"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog

Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The fact is that he is making a mistake in his premise and that is the start to understanding why Church is so bad at these things. It is a load of introverts (often quite extreme) trying to run an organisation so it attracts extroverts who they see as the dominant grouping in society. They end up doing introvert things in a way that superficially extrovert. The resultant activity meets the needs of neither introverts and extroverts but can also allow access to abusive behaviour by individuals.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Find another church. I've long given up trying to stop churches doing stupid things. Let them get on with it and find one whose stupidity you can cope with.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The fact is that he is making a mistake in his premise and that is the start to understanding why Church is so bad at these things.

I don't quite follow. What's the mistake in my premise?

Jack - by use of your fishy term "congregation leader", I suspect you're right about the denomination (I'll stick to the term, if others get sniffy about it). I have read McHugh's book and found it quite good, if rather American in its emphasis. Haven't yet got round to reading Mark Tanner's The Introvert Charismatic, which I understand is a bit more UK-centric, so hopefully more relevant.

And just to be clear, I haven't called it quits on the church as a whole. I just left that particular service. It takes a lot more than that for me to up roots and plant myself somewhere else.

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Since this is All Saints, I'm going to start with my own experience.

In all the Myers-Briggs and other tests I've ever done I come out as 50/50 intro/extrovert. I find my job stressful in large part because it involves frequent flips between these two aspects of my personality. I also find that, to engage properly with worship, indeed with God, I have to allow the introvert aspect of myself full rein because that's where my intuition sits.

As such, I found a similar challenge from a priest who I generally trust absolutely implicitly and hold in very high regard very stressful. The idea that we have a switch that can be flicked at the end of a service, so soon after the most intimate moment of encounter with God in the eucharist, I would suggest is complete madness.

In that respect, Jengie Jon's point about the minister having made a fundamental mistake makes perfect sense. There are also other threads on related topics - I shall apply such GoogleFu as I possess and come up (hopefully) with a link or two shortly - which allude to a crisis being created by an excess of introverted clergy trying desperately to engage an extrovert-dominated world (or thus is the perception of introverts) in the life of faith.

To test the point - about introverts getting engagement with extroverts all wrong - it would be essential (IMHO) to know how an extrovert already engaged in your congregation reacts to the same exercise. It feels intuitively like a misguided exercise to create an inauthentic engagement at a psychologically inappropriate point. If my intuition is correct, then much honest dialogue is needed between the two tendencies, to work out, probably empirically, how they can really be engaged together in the same congregation.

It would be interesting to know whether deep engagement with a liturgical tradition makes this better or worse.

[ 14. March 2016, 11:48: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

 - Posted      Profile for Helen-Eva   Email Helen-Eva   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Where has this thread been all my life?? It's so true.

I actually don't find the "being forced to talk to people" bit the worst because at least it's time-bounded - I can do that in small doses. What I struggle with is the way you sometimes have to go for hours without silence and with lots of different voices and noises battering at you. And the lack of certainty about when it's going to end. It can be very exhausting when you've parcelled out your mental resources to last (say) an hour and a half and then the church world expects you to stick around for another 45mins without prior warning.

--------------------
I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
I haven't read it, but I have heard the book 'Introverts in the Church: Finding our Place in an Extroverted Culture' by Adam S. McHugh highly recommended.

I just ordered it from Amazon. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Sipech, will we be seeing a MW report on the church in question?

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

 - Posted      Profile for Welease Woderwick   Email Welease Woderwick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I feel for you, Sipech and all the others who share those feelings. This wasn't why I left Anglicanism but I realised when I ended up with Quakers how much I benefitted from the silence and "nobody telling what to do"!

I came from two thirds of the way to top-of-the-candle Anglicanism and I can happily buy the proposition about a set liturgy helping here.

In Quakers, of course, we have the opposite issue - a Society full of introverts!

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As promised:

Church does my head in

Sartre was right, and church makes it worse

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Jack the Lass

Ship's airhead
# 3415

 - Posted      Profile for Jack the Lass   Author's homepage   Email Jack the Lass   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Jack - by use of your fishy term "congregation leader", I suspect you're right about the denomination

Haha, well spotted - that was a deliberate inclusion (I'd even go so far as to say it was a distinctive [Biased] ).

Miss Amanda, I think this is Sipech's regular congregation so as such he would not be able to MW it.

--------------------
"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog

Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Sipech, will we be seeing a MW report on the church in question?

Actually, you had that report a few years ago. [Razz]

Currently saving up my energy before harassing some churches in Holy Week.

WW - I've only ever been to the Quakers at Greenbelt and hustings before last year's general election. I suspect if I made them my home church, I'd find it all too comfortable. I like to go to a church that will challenge me a bit; if I find myself agreeing with every bit of theology and praxis, I wonder if I'll ever grow spiritually.

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

 - Posted      Profile for Piglet   Email Piglet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wouldn't describe myself as the least bit introverted (quite the opposite), but it doesn't mean that I want to share intimate religious activities like prayer with anyone but God, or, for that matter, my views on the sermon with a total stranger.

As a Prayer Book Anglican, I find "sharing the peace" very uncomfortable and have been relieved that on most of the occasions I've had to put up with it I've been in the choir, and otherwise occupied.

D. used to have a sign that he set up on the organ console at the Peace during BAS/APB services saying "Peace Free Zone". [Devil]

--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

 - Posted      Profile for Welease Woderwick   Email Welease Woderwick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Here the pax is like a namaste - hands together in front of lower half of the face and a slight bow.

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I love that "peace free zone." Maybe I need a t-shirt or something.

I'm another that can't do the "turn to your neighbor and discuss/pray/hug/say/whatever" thing. To be crude, it feels like being told to have sex when you haven't even kissed yet. And at the drop of a hat, too!

If I can't avoid it (urgent shoelace tying activity, zipping out to the toilet), then I'm forced to fake something up, at great cost of personal energy and integrity, so the other person doesn't feel rejected. This is NOT a good thing to be doing in the middle of worship. The only value to it is, I suppose, that I'm forced to make huge efforts out of charity to my neighbor. But I can get that challenge elsewhere, thanks...

[ 14. March 2016, 15:35: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It feels like being told to have sex when you haven't even kissed yet.

There are times when I'd rather do that than "greet". [Ultra confused]

Otherwise, they're lucky to get a nod and a smile out of me. I hate doing more.

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

 - Posted      Profile for Zappa   Email Zappa   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
as an introvert who has to gestalt himself into the extrovert role every Sunday I agree with so much above. I'll defend the peace, as a symbolic action, but only when it is reduced to a turn and wish God's peace to immediate neigbours action. And chat fests to share your soul or be told you're spiritually ill if you don't? They make Cthulhu and all Angels vomit in four part harmony.

[ 14. March 2016, 16:41: Message edited by: Zappa ]

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is a link to the research paper I was thinking of

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504

 - Posted      Profile for St. Gwladys   Email St. Gwladys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is a difference between being forced to talk to someone and having someone show interest in you and chat to you. We have refreshments after our services, and it's a good way to get to know new people - to sit/stand around with a cupa and find out about people in a non threatening environment.

--------------------
"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)

Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152

 - Posted      Profile for Garasu   Email Garasu   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just wondering: if communion was more reciprocal, would that obviate the need for The Peace and Sharing?

(Coming from outside; and recognising that there are some people I'd really rather hadn't handled something before I eat it!)

--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

 - Posted      Profile for Piglet   Email Piglet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
... And chat fests to share your soul or be told you're spiritually ill if you don't? They make Cthulhu and all Angels vomit in four part harmony.

Quotes file! [Overused]

--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

 - Posted      Profile for Helen-Eva   Email Helen-Eva   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
... And chat fests to share your soul or be told you're spiritually ill if you don't? They make Cthulhu and all Angels vomit in four part harmony.

That line is so good I may have to steal it.

In our church we do the namaste peace (as mentioned by Welease Woderwick ) to share the peace between one side of the choir and the other. Works rather well. For those physically proximate we just do a handshake and "peace be with you". Smile and handshake I have no problem with as it's a short action and the script is pre-written. I should hate to have to come up with something creative to pray with a stranger about unless it was as null and bland as "thank you God for this beautiful day".

Come to think of it, as I live in England, that would sound like taking the mickey most days...

[ 15. March 2016, 09:08: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]

--------------------
I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

 - Posted      Profile for Piglet   Email Piglet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Without wanting to stray off too far into Eccles territory, it seems to me that the Prayer Book has it about right (as usual [Big Grin] ): the celebrant says "The peace of the Lord be always with you", and the people reply "And with thy spirit".

No hand-shaking, no hugging*, no embarrassment, but you do get to wish peace on everybody without leaving your comfort-zone.

* I recall a service D. and I went to in the Episcopal church in Orkney (of which he'd been a member but I hadn't) and when they got to the Peace, the rector came down to the (very small) congregation and hugged all the ladies in turn apart from me (I got the standard handshake).

It didn't really bother me (I was, after all, the only one he didn't know), but D. thought it was a bit pointed.

--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The fact is that he is making a mistake in his premise and that is the start to understanding why Church is so bad at these things.

I don't quite follow. What's the mistake in my premise?


all the surveys that have looked at churches tend to show that they are predominantly inhabited by Introverts and the leadership is more introverted than the congregation.

Talking one to one to a few friends is a very introvert thing to do. To do it to en masse with complete strangers may look extrovert but it isn't. Extroverts do not do that type of conversation at all.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Jengie jon: Talking one to one to a few friends is a very introvert thing to do. To do it to en masse with complete strangers may look extrovert but it isn't. Extroverts do not do that type of conversation at all.
Hmm, I don't agree but I'd better not discuss that in All Saints.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Beenster
Shipmate
# 242

 - Posted      Profile for Beenster   Email Beenster   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I knew of one tactic of sinking reverently to one's knees and praying with a nauseating sanctimonious expression on one's face - to avoid the peace. I never had the guts to do it.

no, it wasn't the peace or the prayer-orgy that I hated. I am very introvert but an expert actor and can master the contrived prayer sessions - I prepared little useful prayers and had them up my sleeve for such occasions.

It was the after service coffee that had me running for the hills. I just couldn't bear that. It was too scary for words and I had neurotic cold sweats, shakes, stammers, complete inability to talk - so I used to shoot off after services.

I stopped going altogether. To ashamed and embarrassed to say anything. I guess I was thought of as rude or standoffish. But for this introvert, church was too overwhelming and exhausting and I didn't feel safe.

Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Am I the only extrovert on the Ship?

[Tear]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am not sure how to respond to this. I don't have a lot of problems with doing many things, and can talk to others whom I don't know quite well. I am also a person who feels that a hug is often a good thing.

However, I am also very aware that others do not share this. I am always happy for others not to talk, not to hug, whatever. I would never force people to do something that they were uncomfortable with (deliberately at least).

I suppose if I was asked to talk to someone and they didn't want to, I would be quite happy to say "fine - we won't". Otherwise it is controlling and abusive.

I have been prayed for when I don't want to be. It is not a positive experience.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

 - Posted      Profile for Penny S     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wonder where it's come from.
I found it excruciating in INSET sessions where we teachers were supposed to be learning about something or other where it simply wasn't relevant to turn to one's neighbour and tell them about oneself for a minute, and then have them tell you about yourself back. and vice versa.
And there has been a move to something similar in evening classes, where people who had signed up for lectures, because they like lectures, are supposed to have splitting into twos to discuss the subject. Which they can't do because they haven't heard the lecture that they wanted to hear.
Has someone done some research which suggests that this is the right way to go about things?

Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
I haven't read it, but I have heard the book 'Introverts in the Church: Finding our Place in an Extroverted Culture' by Adam S. McHugh highly recommended.

I just ordered it from Amazon. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

fwiw: written by a friend, so of course, I recommend it highly. It has a lot of good suggestions. It takes a bit more even-handed approach than what we've seen here-- there are some good reasons why churches do the "forced talking" thing; passing the peace, etc. And yet there's much the church can do to recognize and to some degree lessen the discomfort for others.

I think it's also useful to note that introversion and extroversion are not monolithic entities-- they exist on a spectrum, and are experienced in all sorts of ways. Some introverts (like my author friend Adam) are pastors who have no trouble talking in front of large groups of people, but small talk one-on-one is challenging. Others find any sort of public speaking terrifying but small one-on-one is their jam. There are all sorts of varieties.

I'm a mild introvert, and my response to the "forced talking" in the OP is the exact opposite-- that's precisely what I need. For me, my introversion is triggered most when the roles/expectations are unclear. Something with clear direction-- turn to your neighbor and say hi/pass the peace/tell them something good/share a prayer request is wonderful for me because it's clear, specific, I know I can do it, and it helps me get to know people better. So I love, love, love this sort of "forced talking" as long as it's clear & specific.

What is absolutely terrifying for me is coffee fellowship-- a room full of people chatting in small groups about anything/ everything with no clear rules about how to break into a group or join a conversation. My personal version of hell.

Which just goes to the point that people even within a spectrum are going to experience all this differently, so just talking in terms of introvert/extrovert isn't enough. What's probably most helpful is for pastors/churches to vary the kinds of interactions they ask (including none). But also for each of us (Adam will make this point in his book) to have a bit of grace about being "stretched" to do something uncomfortable. Ideally, we will all have some places of comfort we can retreat to in the service, as well as some places of discomfort where we're asked to grow or stretch.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If the church has multiple services, sometimes it helps to go to the least-attended one. It may be at an inconvenient hour. But, IME, there's much less fuss. When there are fewer people, they may not sit close to each other at all. So when it comes to the Peace, they may just nod or wave--from a distance.

Off-hour services can also be a relief if you're having faith issues. Less fuss, and there may not even be a sermon.

YMMV.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

 - Posted      Profile for Huia   Email Huia   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The most uncomfortable Anglican Eucharist I've ever been to was when I lived in a small city up north. I was a parishioner who attended this church regularly, even though they had a much more 'huggy' Peace than I felt comfortable with.

On this occasion someone was reporting back from a Liturgical Dance conference they had been to. They started a dance that swept up individual members of the congregation. At first it seemed that this would be people who were willing, so I didn't beat a strategic retreat to the toilet, but then it turned into a compulsory congregational exercise. In the end I was the only person not dancing despite people pulling at me to encourage me to join.

It was embarrassing, and in some ways it might have been easier to join, but it felt like a contrived blackmail.

I was so glad to leave that city and move here.

One of the things I appreciate most about the church I currently attend is the spaces with no one talking at the beginning and after the Minister's Reflection. I gives me time to gather myself together.

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
I knew of one tactic of sinking reverently to one's knees and praying with a nauseating sanctimonious expression on one's face - to avoid the peace. I never had the guts to do it.

[Killing me] Wonder if this would work for me.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

What is absolutely terrifying for me is coffee fellowship-- a room full of people chatting in small groups about anything/ everything with no clear rules about how to break into a group or join a conversation. My personal version of hell.

I can do meaningless social burble, although I'm usually hovering on the edge. I fail completely if I'm invited to emote at relative strangers. (Complete strangers I'll never see again are fine, and close friends and relatives are fine. The middle ground is a problem.)

So I'm entirely happy to share the peace and a handshake with whoever is sitting near me, but any kind of extempore "pray with your neighbor" thing would be completely horrific, as is the kind of round-table sharing of feelings that often seems to be called for in small groups.

I'm happy to share my thoughts - but not my feelings. People who don't distinguish as clearly between thoughts and feelings tend to find this especially irritating.

[ 16. March 2016, 01:33: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

What is absolutely terrifying for me is coffee fellowship-- a room full of people chatting in small groups about anything/ everything with no clear rules about how to break into a group or join a conversation. My personal version of hell.

I can do meaningless social burble, although I'm usually hovering on the edge. I fail completely if I'm invited to emote at relative strangers. (Complete strangers I'll never see again are fine, and close friends and relatives are fine. The middle ground is a problem.)

So I'm entirely happy to share the peace and a handshake with whoever is sitting near me, but any kind of extempore "pray with your neighbor" thing would be completely horrific, as is the kind of round-table sharing of feelings that often seems to be called for in small groups.

I'm happy to share my thoughts - but not my feelings. People who don't distinguish as clearly between thoughts and feelings tend to find this especially irritating.

Whereas I'm fairly comfortable sharing even quite personal things if I'm directed to-- i.e. it's clear this is the socially appropriate thing to do right now. But small talk totally eludes me-- I don't know what to say or how or when or to whom and so just feel completely awkward. Not very good at reading unwritten social cues I guess-- I like it when it's all spelled out.

Which again, just means even introverts are not uniform in what we're comfortable/ uncomfortable with, so trying to figure out how to plan worship or any other gathering with introverts in mind is not all that easy. But raising the issue can at least help the more extroverted clergy to at least be aware of the problem and sensitive to it.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

Which again, just means even introverts are not uniform in what we're comfortable/ uncomfortable with, so trying to figure out how to plan worship or any other gathering with introverts in mind is not all that easy.

It probably starts with "follow the script". If you're going to do something I can't deal well with, and I know about it, I can plan in advance to control my comfort level (up to and including not coming). If you spring it on me, you don't give me that option.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... but any kind of extempore "pray with your neighbor" thing would be completely horrific, as is the kind of round-table sharing of feelings that often seems to be called for in small groups.

I will never, ever join another small group at church. I have never been in one that wasn't one way or another an awful experience. And when I inadvertently get stuck in one of those round-table sharing situations, I share how much I hate on-demand sharing.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Boogie: Am I the only extrovert on the Ship?
No.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I asked the question because we all are how we are.

I spend a lot of time quashing my extrovert tendencies (My husband is introvert and my best friend too).

This thread makes me feel I'm a terrible person for wanting to chat to everyone I meet/sing loudly in the street when something cheers me up/all the other outgoing, sociable stuff. Being me makes you feel uncomfortable? Really? You'd like the world to be full of understanding introverts?

I will sit in a group and spend the whole time concentrating on not speaking, so much so that I miss out on what is being said.

If we were asked, in church, to turn around to talk to and pray with the person who happen to be sat near us I chat with them - not about the subject given - about their kids, what they are doing after service, what they thought of the sermon etc. I do not like being told to talk/pray with people at all - but then, we are asked to do all sorts of nonsense at church, are we not?

We used to have a narrowboat. My husband was always amazed that, in the space of negotiating one lock, I would find out where the people on the other boat had come from, where they were going, their occupations and much more. If he did the lock I'd ask 'where are they going?', he'd say 'no idea!'

Like I said - we are how we are.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

 - Posted      Profile for Helen-Eva   Email Helen-Eva   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

This thread makes me feel I'm a terrible person for wanting to chat to everyone I meet/sing loudly in the street when something cheers me up/all the other outgoing, sociable stuff. Being me makes you feel uncomfortable? Really? You'd like the world to be full of understanding introverts?

That's a real shame. I don't think what you describe is a problem at all. I like other people to be extraverts in social situations so they do the talking and I don't have to. I have no problem with anyone wanting to talk/sing in the street provided if I need to I can get away from it. What's horrible is if I'm being forced to try to behave in an extraverted way when I can't.

I wonder if what you're experiencing is feeling forced to be an introvert when you can't?

--------------------
I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
all the surveys that have looked at churches tend to show that they are predominantly inhabited by Introverts and the leadership is more introverted than the congregation.

I'm a bit sceptical about "all the surveys". A lot of church surveys stick to the larger, more established, denominations. And in my experience, some denominations attract different personality types. So it wouldn't surprise me if a survey done only on Anglicans found that they were more introverted, but I would be surprised if the same were true of a Pentecostal church.

With reference to the OP, my congregation leader is definitely an extrovert; I've known her for a few years.

I'm with Helen-Eva, contra Boogie, that it is not extroverts, per se, that I am complaining about. It is the imposition of an extrovert expression onto those who find it intensely uncomfortable, when it is not necessary.

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

 - Posted      Profile for Spike   Email Spike   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
It happened again yesterday. Near the end of the service, after the sermon, we were asked to turn around to talk to and pray with the person who happened to be sat near us.

Normally, if this inflicted upon us, I choose this moment to nip out to the loo or get myself a drink of water from the back hall, but as it was the end of the service, I got up and left. It's not the first time this has happened and I wasn't the only one who left at that point.

At what point do church leaders cotton on to the fact that there's a gulf between encouraging fellowship and trying to force someone to talk about something personal to a stranger?

Others I know have issues of personal space with the 'sharing of the peace', where some of the more exuberant interpret this as meaning hugs!

Is it not unkind to inflict this upon people? Talking to people is hard enough, but I do it Monday-Friday in my job and I do a bit at church. There's often talk about "it's good to step out of your comfort zone" but without realising that for introverts, church already is a long way outside of that zone, but we go anyway. Ask us to go further and don't be surprised if there's an exodus.

If it's any consolation, it's not just introverts who dislike that sort of thing. I'm an extrovert, but if I were in a church where that happened I would run a mile.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If that has ever happened (and it's only rare, as I try to only go to the sort of churches where there's a set liturgy and nothing too extrovert happens), I turn to the person next to me and say 'I don't really want to do this, do you?' There's usually a sigh of relief and then we both sit there in blissful silence while everyone else gabbles on.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204

 - Posted      Profile for Chamois   Email Chamois   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
I'm with Helen-Eva, contra Boogie, that it is not extroverts, per se, that I am complaining about. It is the imposition of an extrovert expression onto those who find it intensely uncomfortable, when it is not necessary.
Easter is coming. When our vicar re-arranges the church chairs into a circle. So we are forced to sit and look at each other during the service. [Help]
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965

 - Posted      Profile for Yangtze   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
... it is not extroverts, per se, that I am complaining about. It is the imposition of an extrovert expression onto those who find it intensely uncomfortable, when it is not necessary.

But why on earth do you think that being asked at no notice to talk to one or two strangers about something meaningful is 'an extrovert expression'?

I'm actually a bit dubious about the whole introvert/extrovert labelling thing but even allowing that it has substance, extroverts can be shy too.

Plus if we take the definition that most people seem to refer to that it's about where go get your energy (being with people vs being alone) then one-on-one talking to a stranger is no indication of extroversion.

--------------------
Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen

Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?

Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

 - Posted      Profile for Piglet   Email Piglet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
... it is not extroverts, per se, that I am complaining about. It is the imposition of an extrovert expression onto those who find it intensely uncomfortable, when it is not necessary.

But why on earth do you think that being asked at no notice to talk to one or two strangers about something meaningful is 'an extrovert expression'?
My understanding (and I hope Sipech will correct me if I'm wrong) is that to some people (not necessarily just those who, technically, would be termed "introverted"), being expected to share something as intimate as a prayer (or one's opinion of the sermon) with strangers feels like being made to go against one's nature.

FWIW, my problem would be the context.

I could probably discuss the sermon (assuming I'd stayed awake [Devil] ) over post-church coffee or lunch afterwards, but I would feel decidedly odd discussing it with anyone before the service was actually over.

--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

 - Posted      Profile for SusanDoris   Author's homepage   Email SusanDoris   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
It happened again yesterday. Near the end of the service, after the sermon, we were asked to turn around to talk to and pray with the person who happened to be sat near us.


<snip>

Is it not unkind to inflict this upon people? Talking to people is hard enough, but I do it Monday-Friday in my job and I do a bit at church. There's often talk about "it's good to step out of your comfort zone" but without realising that for introverts, church already is a long way outside of that zone, but we go anyway. Ask us to go further and don't be surprised if there's an exodus.

Very much agree. When I was still a CofE churchgoer, that 'give the peace' would have been enough to stop me attending such a service, even if I had not been by that time an atheist (and was there for the singing - I was in the choir). I'm never shy or reserved but an easily and confidently friendly and will hapilly meet and talk to anyone, but that ....!! Well, I still cringe just to think of it.

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In one church I fussed at the pastor "church is for extroverts." He agreed, saying 75% of church members are extroverts, and 75% of clergy are introverts. One reason for my statement was the newsletter and bulletin gave little useful info. Communication was by grapevine, you found out about a prayer meet or social outing by bumping into someone who would tell you, so you had to be an extrovert just to learn what was going on.

In my next church when they had a guest cello player for special music, at the coffee she was alone, people were chatting with their usual friends and not with her, so I suspect that church was mostly introverts. (I went over to chat with her after seeing she was alone quite a while.)

[ 17. March 2016, 17:15: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools