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Source: (consider it) Thread: I call all homophobes to Hell - especially Russ
dj_ordinaire
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I quite agree. Rest assured I am not going to start discussing my sex-life with random folk across the entree, but pretending that you aren't married seems a bit much.

Puts one in mind of Blackadder's puritanical aunt who refuses to be called 'aunt' because an aunt is a relative, and relatives are evidence of SEX!

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I quite agree. Rest assured I am not going to start discussing my sex-life with random folk across the entree, but pretending that you aren't married seems a bit much.

Puts one in mind of Blackadder's puritanical aunt who refuses to be called 'aunt' because an aunt is a relative, and relatives are evidence of SEX!

At least Blackadder's aunt was offended for herself instead of alleging offence by proxy.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm guessing this comes down to "I understand the foundations of life to be a certain way; but society seems to be turning all that upside down; it's extremely disturbing; and I have to keep those foundations intact". Is that a fair interpretation?

I sometimes feel that way about various things, myself. I think those are legit feelings...

The tangle comes when a) those changes are an attempt to correct injustice; and b) all the weight seems to come down on the people who don't like the changes, even if they're basically people of good will who just don't like change...

With feminism, LGBT equal rights, and ethnic group civil rights (clumsy term), A is definitely true. And sometimes B is true, especially with feminism. A lot of people realize that white men are catching a lot of flack for what previous generations did.

ISTM that things generally wobble back and forth, and eventually wind up somewhere in the middle. It can take a very long time, though, and people suffer in the meantime.

I have moments of wanting a full pendulum swing to matriarchy. It might be just, as far as redressing past and present wrongs...but more people (of the male persuasion) would get hurt. So ISTM we're better off in a middle ground, where no one group has the majority of the power, and where people try to treat each other decently, and also cut each other some slack.

Thanks, GoldenKey.

What you're talking about makes a lot of sense in terms of manners. What is considered more or less polite does change over time. And this can lead to older people feeling under siege from the vulgarity of modern life.

Siege mentality is not a good thing, from either the inside or the outside of the citadel, and I can only endorse your prescription of treating decently the people you meet and making allowances for the fact that they come from a different subculture.

The particular example I gave - the gay work colleague I had in mind - was from a number of years ago. Last century, if you want to think of it that way. A new etiquette is likely to follow the advent of civil partnerships, and it would be foolish to try to insist that use of language reman static.

The principle of discretion remains.

And I think it follows that it is considerate to be more-than-usually formally-polite when introduced to someone of the older generation. Like someone's mother. Clearly, as you get to know someone better, you get a better idea of who they are, and how they think, and what they are likely to be offended or not offended by.

I don't, of course, believe in the principle of "redressing past wrongs" to groups or classes of people. If person A does wrong to person B, then some form of redress from B to A is just. Dmanding redress from someone who shares some characteristic with person B to someone who shares some characteristic with person A is not just. And talking about groups can conceal that that is what is going on.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

And I think it follows that it is considerate to be more-than-usually formally-polite when introduced to someone of the older generation. Like someone's mother. Clearly, as you get to know someone better, you get a better idea of who they are, and how they think, and what they are likely to be offended or not offended by.

You have not understood, then, that this is not about politeness at all? It's about deception - and an unkind deception at that.

"Hi friend's Mum, this is my flatmate" when actually he's my partner/husband?

I don't think so.

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Pigwidgeon

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I thank God that I had my Mom, and not Russ's.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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LeRoc

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quote:
rolyn: Most of us ere on the side of caution in social situations so as to not risk causing offence. Hence the old adage -- Don't bring up the topic of sex, politics or religion at dinner-parties.
Hmm ... when a gay couple visit Russ' mum, they should lie and say they are flatmates.

When I visit someone who is sensitive to religion, should I lie and say I'm an atheist?

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RooK

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Seriously Russ; politely fuck your mom.
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mousethief

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If who I am offends you, dear mother of Russ or whomever, tough shit.

If you are likely to be offended when out and about in public in today's world, you may wish to stay at home and watch reruns of Mayberry.

[ 31. October 2015, 15:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Organ Builder
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Hmmm...assuming that she isn't suffering from dementia, I seem to have a higher opinion of Russ's mother than he does, because I suspect she would manage to handle what is now a perfectly normal social interaction with aplomb.

Indeed, without knowing where Russ actually works, his little post about what he would expect from coworkers would be likely to get the attention of most HR departments, and he would be getting some diversity training before he did something that landed the company in court.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
And I think it follows that it is considerate to be more-than-usually formally-polite when introduced to someone of the older generation. Like someone's mother. Clearly, as you get to know someone better, you get a better idea of who they are, and how they think, and what they are likely to be offended or not offended by.

Echoing O.B., I think it's rather condescending to assume that any old person I meet is a thin-skinned bigot unable to respond politely and appropriately to someone with whom they might not agree, or with whose sexual identity they might not be comfortable, and that further they are so ignorant of modern society that it never occurred to them that they might be introduced to a person married to someone of the same sex.

[ 31. October 2015, 16:04: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Pigwidgeon

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This suddenly reminded me of something that happened when I was in high school. I was having a party at my house for members of a group I was in at school. My soon-to-be-ex-friend* asked me if my mother knew that Fred would be at the party. I said yes, and expressed puzzlement at why she would ask. Well, she wasn't sure if my mother knew that Fred was black. I said that yes, she did, but what the heck difference did that make? When I told my mother about this conversation later on, it turns out that soon-to-be-ex-friend had also pulled my mother aside before the party, apparently not believing that she wouldn't be upset about having one of "those people" in her home. My mother was FAR more offended by soon-to-be-ex-friend's bigotry than she was by Fred's skin color.

Don't assume my mother's attitudes based on your own or on your mother's.

*(This was one of several incidents that made me realize I'd rather have her as an ex-friend than a friend.)

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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Curiosity killed ...

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I can't remember how it came up, I suspect it was around a gay couple we knew in common, but I had a conversation with an older lady about the prejudice around homosexuality and this couple in particular. She thought it was so much better than when she was young. She had felt so sorry for some of her "confirmed bachelor" friends with all the shenanigans they had to get up to live reasonably peaceful lives, but of course everyone knew men who were gay when she was young. (And actually, they really did - Noel Coward, Kenneth Williams, Oscar Wilde, Ivor Novello, Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon, Osbert Sitwell, Alan Turing, Benjamin Brittan - the list goes on and many of that list go back a century or more.)

Most of the older people I know react like this, although there are some who are still homophobic.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
..... when a gay couple visit Russ' mum, they should lie and say they are flatmates.

Dunno ? Maybe best gauge the situation first. If she looks like your rabid homophobe type then probably better to keep it under your hat.
If you admitt to being gay, and brag about swinging from the chandelier every other night, who's to say she won't piss in the teapot or gob in your cup-cakes before serving them up.

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Echoing O.B., I think it's rather condescending to assume that any old person I meet is a thin-skinned bigot unable to respond politely and appropriately to someone with whom they might not agree, or with whose sexual identity they might not be comfortable, and that further they are so ignorant of modern society that it never occurred to them that they might be introduced to a person married to someone of the same sex.

Or, you might even have the fantastic experience I had at my cousin's funeral, where I met up with half a dozen of my elderly aunts and uncles, who rushed over to ask where my partner was because they wanted to meet her. These were people I hadn't seen for nearly 25 years. They quite literally wanted to take her into the bosom of the family (and that's a lot of bosom with the aunts I'm thinking of).

I will agree with Russ on one point only. It is always good to be polite to people, elderly or not.

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Liopleurodon

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

If you admitt to being gay, and brag about swinging from the chandelier every other night, who's to say she won't piss in the teapot or gob in your cup-cakes before serving them up.

You people really do jump from "admits being gay" to "inappropriate levels of detail about sex life" in a heartbeat don't you. Why the hell can't you grasp the distinction? Or perhaps every straight person you know also opens the conversation with "and this is my husband, who fucked me roughly from behind while wearing a Viking helmet last night. How do you know Kenneth?"
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Soror Magna
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And now rolyn steps up to show us another insider's view of a homophobe's fantasies ...

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If you admit to being gay, and brag about swinging from the chandelier every other night,

Why do you think those two things go together? Why do you think a man who introduces his husband as his husband is then going to go on and talk about their activities? What kind of people do you hang out with, for God's sake? Time to make some new friends, maybe. Or pull your head out of your arse.

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Doublethink.
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"admit" ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doc Tor
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I mean, it's not like saying you voted Tory, or work for the Sun, or anything terrible, is it?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I mean, it's not like saying you voted Tory, or work for the Sun, or anything terrible, is it?

Boy, if you REALLY want my mother to be offended....

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orfeo

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People reveal their heterosexuality to me all the time, by referring to the gender of their partner.

I haven't yet found a situation where I needed to hiss "Breeder!" at them or do anything else nasty. Nor have I felt I've gained any insight as to whether they swing from the chandeliers every night or use the missionary position once a month.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
And now rolyn steps up to show us another insider's view of a homophobe's fantasies ...

I suspect that there's a large dollop of irony in rolyn's post, and it's not directed at gays.

[ 01. November 2015, 02:26: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Golden Key
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I figured there was hyperbole re the chandelier, but I may be wrong.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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mousethief

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Without getting too terribly pornographic, can somebody explain what swinging from the chandeliers has to do with sex?
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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Without getting too terribly pornographic, can somebody explain what swinging from the chandeliers has to do with sex?

No. You're too young.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Golden Key
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MT--

I think it's just a matter of wild, bedless abandon, combined with too many Errol Flynn movies. [Biased]

Unless, of course, there are trapeze artists involved.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Without getting too terribly pornographic, can somebody explain what swinging from the chandeliers has to do with sex?

I'm guessing it creates new angles.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

Siege mentality is not a good thing, from either the inside or the outside of the citadel, and I can only endorse your prescription of treating decently the people you meet and making allowances for the fact that they come from a different subculture.

Apparently if you suspect there are hidden scientific laws for these people from another subculture, that mean you should call them defective. That's the Russ concept of decency. Go back and read the bullshit you posted at the beginning of this thread.

quote:

The particular example I gave - the gay work colleague I had in mind - was from a number of years ago. Last century, if you want to think of it that way. A new etiquette is likely to follow the advent of civil partnerships, and it would be foolish to try to insist that use of language remain static.

quote:

The principle of discretion remains.

And I think it follows that it is considerate to be more-than-usually formally-polite when introduced to someone of the older generation. Like someone's mother. Clearly, as you get to know someone better, you get a better idea of who they are, and how they think, and what they are likely to be offended or not offended by.

Your philosophy of how to be considerate isn't one most of us will follow.
There was a time in polite society in the United States where one didn't associate with Irish or Jews. I'm sure you would have been discreet about your origins, I wouldn't. I also don't assume that older people are raving bigots, even if their children are. A great many older people have gay friends and supported them and their relationships as best they couuld. It would certainly be rude to assume that an older person is a homophobe or racist just because the society they lived in encouraged that. In the meantime why don't you show discretion and not risk offending people by just staying at home.


quote:

I don't, of course, believe in the principle of "redressing past wrongs" to groups or classes of people. If person A does wrong to person B, then some form of redress from B to A is just. Demanding redress from someone who shares some characteristic with person B to someone who shares some characteristic with person A is not just. And talking about groups can conceal that that is what is going on.

Well, I'm not going to assume your mother is a homophobic bigot just because you are.

You're also doing another shuffle while you point out that the incident you referred to is 15 years old and society has changed. So why do you bring it up if it's obsolete? And I thought you were claiming the intolerance was based on some eternal scientific principal and not just a passing phase of an intolerant culture.

Why do you expect people who have spent a good chunk of their lives having to conceal their identity to wait any longer so you and your older ilk can pretend that gay people don't exist and are married? If you and your mother are too bigoted and senile to cope with the existence of other people, the solution is for you to have the consideration to stay at home rather than demanding other people lie about themselves.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
]I suspect that there's a large dollop of irony in rolyn's post, and it's not directed at gays.

That is. Correct Gee D. Not really all that keen on the tongue poking smilie thingie.
Indeed MT, I don't get out much, but nevertheless do know some gay men, (2 of whom are married), and extremely pleasant people they are.

But yes, this is a highly charged Hell thread and people are going to throw the rotten veg an RFI's about. I've got to be prepared to take that if a comment meant as a 'lightener' blows up in my face .

It just strikes me that if I was in a room with some IS sort stroking his or her machete then I'd probably try and steer the conversation away from religion, you know , if it were at all possible.

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Dave W.
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Presumably that's meant to be another "lightener," rolyn.

But I'm not sure if you're clumsily trying to insult Russ's mom (really, how could her bigotry be as evident as someone stroking a machete?) or just humorously referring to the fact that people have, in fact, been killed because some bigot found out they were gay.

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Russ
Old salt
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

When I visit someone who is sensitive to religion, should I lie and say I'm an atheist?

No, you shouldn't lie. But it might be more tactful not to introduce yourself with the words "Hi, I'm LeRoc and I'm an atheist"[i/]. You can be truthful without leading the conversation directly into a conflict zone.

If their opening question to you is [i]"and which church do you go to ?"
then it's not your fault if they're offended by a tactfully-phrased and honest answer on your part. They've raised the subject; you haven't flaunted your atheism in their face.

If two people are living together in a flat then "flatmate" is not untrue. It's just not urgently necessary to clarify whether it's a one-bed or two-bed flat...

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lilBuddha
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Then it should be the same for heterosexual couples as well. Full stop.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

If two people are living together in a flat then "flatmate" is not untrue. It's just not urgently necessary to clarify whether it's a one-bed or two-bed flat...

So you would be perfectly happy to introduce your wife as 'my flatmate' or 'my housemate'?

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
If two people are living together in a flat then "flatmate" is not untrue.

Bullshit. Two people who are married are not "flatmates."

Does your mother know you spend so much of your free time on the internet telling strangers she's a such bigot that she's offended by the very thought that gay people exist?

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rolyn
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I,ve got no beef with Russ' actual mother, not met her, not likely to.

Reading back through some of the other posts, the russ' mom we've got here is clearly a stereotypical straw old dear who it is automatically assumed of to be not open-minded to homosexual activity.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

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Referring to your husband or wife as your 'flat-mate' is a lie. There is no possible way that these terms can be considered synonyms. None!

You keep referring to your 'mother'. How would you like people to demand that you instead call her 'someone I once lived with'? Presumably that is also strictly accurately, but you must see that this is not a reasonable request for anyone to make.

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Flinging wide the gates...

Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Russ: No, you shouldn't lie. But it might be more tactful not to introduce yourself with the words "Hi, I'm LeRoc and I'm an atheist"[i/]. You can be truthful without leading the conversation directly into a conflict zone.

If their opening question to you is [i]"and which church do you go to ?"
then it's not your fault if they're offended by a tactfully-phrased and honest answer on your part. They've raised the subject; you haven't flaunted your atheism in their face.

If two people are living together in a flat then "flatmate" is not untrue. It's just not urgently necessary to clarify whether it's a one-bed or two-bed flat...

You have double standards.

Suppose your mum was a staunch atheist, and I would visit her together with my pastor. Would it be okay for me to say "Hi, I'm LeRoc and this is my pastor Jack?"

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I,ve got no beef with Russ' actual mother, not met her, not likely to.

Reading back through some of the other posts, the russ' mom we've got here is clearly a stereotypical straw old dear who it is automatically assumed of to be not open-minded to homosexual activity.

No shit, Sherlock!

But we have no idea that she's an "old dear" - all we know is that Russ wants everyone to behave as if she'll lose her shit if anyone even hints at the fact that gays exist.

But she's not from the 19th century, is she? This really shouldn't come as a terrible shock to her. If she's not "open-minded to homosexual activity", surely she can do the polite thing and keep her mouth shut.

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Without getting too terribly pornographic, can somebody explain what swinging from the chandeliers has to do with sex?

I'm guessing it creates new angles.
There are more than 360?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
The problem, it seems to me, is that you just aren't seeing gay people as ordinary people who happen to be gay. You are asking what it is reasonable to expect of this alien species when they attempt to assimilate into your heterosexual world. And, of course, if you have that mindset, saying "pretend that you aren't really gay" doesn't seem that unreasonable. But if you could realise that gay people feel the same way about their relationships as we do about ours, that they aren't aliens, and that this isn't a heterosexual world, you'd no longer be able to see it that way at all. It would be obvious to you that concealing an important personal relationship to avoid social awkwardness isn't an ordinary thing for ordinary people to do. You wouldn't readily consent to deny your relationship with your wife, or child, or parent, or best friend. Why do you think it would be any more acceptable to ask a gay man to deny that the person he most loves is his life partner?

I do see gay people as ordinary people who just happen to be gay. Just as deaf people are ordinary people who just happen to be deaf. In both cases, their impairment doesn't go all the way down - there are no deaf souls or gay souls. Which doesn't make anyone a "defective person".

And this is a heterosexual world. We are a heterosexual species - that is part of how we reproduce.

I know that you don't agree. You see having a small proportion of homosexuals in the mix as somehow part of human reproductive strategy. As part of what humans are meant to be. As part of Creation rather than as part of the Fall. You don't see homosexuality as any sort of impairment.

And from that follows your belief that same-sex unions should have the same status in human society as opposite-sex unions. You would no more deny one than deny the other. It's just the same thing applied to the minority strain of the species. Perfectly logical.

And because humans (like some other species, thinking of chickens in particular) have a well-documented tendency to try to bully minorities, you're tempted to think that any disparagement of gay people by a straight person is explainable as being no more than that type of bullying. As an explanation of first resort.

Whereas I'm just an ordinary person who happens to think that your initial premise is mistaken.

The conclusions that I'm drawing (from the premise that homosexuality is a defective sexual desire) are:

- that it's reasonable to think and talk about cure or prevention

- that whilst homosexual acts may be perfectly moral for those thus unequipped for heterosexual relationships, those who are not "gay-since-birth" but are merely confused or going through a phase should not be led to believe that homosexuality is an equally-good option for them

- that disgust at the idea of homosexual acts is not pathological (still less something malevolent - people are not responsible for what they feel) but is part of a natural hard-wired revulsion against sexual desire for the inappropriate (animals, infants etc). And that therefore whilst everyone should, out of consideration for others, exercise a certain amount of discretion in how much they publicize their sexual intimacy, homosexuals should be more discrete than heterosexuals are. (Accepting that the details of what is considered socially polite will change between different times and places).

I hope that those conclusions are moderate, reasonable and logical, given the premise.

If so. then the question comes down to whether there's a way to establish whether your premise or my premise is the true one. Or whether that's the sort of proposition to which true and false apply.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I do see gay people as ordinary people who just happen to be gay. Just as deaf people are ordinary people who just happen to be deaf.

But for God's sake, don't tell his mother that your flatmate is deaf! Her poor ticker can't take it!

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I hope that those conclusions are moderate, reasonable and logical, given the premise.

But you have not, despite repeated requests to do so, given any LOGICAL reason you draw these conclusions. Just bad analogies, which are not logical reasons. Analogies can be used to explain, but not to support, a belief. They're just not suitable for that purpose.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I do see gay people as ordinary people who just happen to be gay. Just as deaf people are ordinary people who just happen to be deaf. In both cases, their impairment doesn't go all the way down - there are no deaf souls or gay souls. Which doesn't make anyone a "defective person".

OK.

So - there is no shame in being deaf, agreed? Why do you think there should be shame in being homosexual? So much so that folks should lie to hide their sexuality?

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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Hey, Russ, you ignorant turd: discrete and discreet are different words. And please, give our best wishes to the woman that used to diaper you. Don't tell anyone she's your mother, as it will only embarrass her.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

Whereas I'm just an ordinary person who happens to think

Were this the case, we'd be done by now.

quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

- that disgust at the idea of homosexual acts is not pathological (still less something malevolent - people are not responsible for what they feel) but is part of a natural hard-wired revulsion against sexual desire for the inappropriate (animals, infants etc).

Shipmates: I ask you read these words and consider whether you still think Russ anything other than a troll or an idiot.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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I don't think he's a troll, but I'm beginning to think he's a babbitty man incapable of empathy or reading for comprehension.

As such, he is perhaps not the kind of person who will do his faith any favors when he discusses theology.

This doesn't mean that his soul is defective, of course...

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

- that disgust at the idea of homosexual acts is not pathological (still less something malevolent - people are not responsible for what they feel) but is part of a natural hard-wired revulsion against sexual desire for the inappropriate (animals, infants etc). And that therefore whilst everyone should, out of consideration for others, exercise a certain amount of discretion in how much they publicize their sexual intimacy, homosexuals should be more discrete than heterosexuals are.

a) Do you really not see how massively offensive equating consensual homosexual intimacy with child abise is ?

b) I find thinking about my parents having sex (naturally) 'disgusting', I deal with this by not thinking about them having sex. I do not contemplate what my father does with his penis. In fact, typing this paragraph is literally the first time I recall consciously thinking about my father's penis.

What the fuck is wrong with you Russ ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
And because humans (like some other species, thinking of chickens in particular) have a well-documented tendency to try to bully minorities, you're tempted to think that any disparagement of gay people by a straight person is explainable as being no more than that type of bullying. As an explanation of first resort.

Whereas I'm just an ordinary person who happens to think that your initial premise is mistaken.

That is, to use your term, your subjective opinion. You search your feelings and subjectively you find them innocent of any urge to bully anyone else.
That's just your subjective state of mind. It doesn't have any objective validity on its own. Because we know that all human beings, ourselves included, are inclined to rationalise our behaviour to make ourselves out to ourselves as morally better than we are; when we have been harming other people to take our behaviour for the exercise of virtue.
Whether you are bullying or not depends not at all upon your opinion as to whether you are an ordinary human being, (as you say ordinary human beings are quite capable of bullying), but upon the objective facts about your behaviour.

quote:
I hope that those conclusions are moderate, reasonable and logical, given the premise.
To adapt Dr Johnson, in cases of doubt it requires a much greater weight of evidence to justify coming down on the side of the bullies.

Because, frankly at this point, the evidence that your position is not moderate, nor reasonable, nor logical, is far stronger than the evidence for your premise in any sense that supports your conclusion, and far stronger than any reasoning you've provided to get from your premise to your conclusions.

I mean, you all but admit that you feel revulsion at the idea of homosexual sexual activity. Do you not see that that is a massive bias in your thinking, that puts any claim by you to be reasonable utterly in doubt?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Without getting too terribly pornographic, can somebody explain what swinging from the chandeliers has to do with sex?

I'm guessing it creates new angles.
There are more than 360?
Yes, the New-Fangles. [Biased]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Not to be confused with a Newf Angel.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged



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